The Ten Thousand Things

Hello and welcome to the 10,000 things.

My name is Sam, and I'm Joe Lowe.

Sam, you stopped saying
your surname at the start.

Are you going anonymous?

Yeah, I'm going dark.

Oh, right.

No, no, no.

My name is Sam Ellis.

Oh, okay.

That's what you used to say.

That's what I used to say.

The old school 2022 mm.

10,000 things heads.

They want the full.

They want the full name.

I think you're right.

Can you say it again now please?

Hello.

Welcome to the 10,000 things.

My name is Sam Ellis.

I'm Joe Low.

And let's bring those 20, 22 vibes back.

I'm sure I'm, I'm sure
I'm not the only one.

Yeah.

So we're onto part two of our 25
part series and we're recording

for the first time at my house,
which is a great experience.

Yes.

We've got couches.

That's right.

It's not, we're not on a camp
chair or a, it's more comfortable.

Mm.

And Joe was mind blown when I
plugged the audio interface into

his computer and he is like, what?

I can just.

We can just plug these mics in.

Yeah.

You made it seem very microsofty
around at your place, you know?

Oh yeah, for sure.

And also there was a mixer
involved and it just looks hard.

It looked complicated.

I didn't know you could come around
and plug it into my little Mac.

Well, if there's just laptop.

Yeah, that's right.

Well, if there's just two
mics, I've got us covered.

So anyway, enough inside baseball.

Let's get on to verse
two of the Tao de Ching.

Why are we talking about the Tao de Ching?

What's your understanding of why we're
talking about this ancient wisdom?

Right.

Oh, for sure.

Ancient wisdom, which can be
applied to our very lives today.

And here's another word, which is almost
meaningless, timeless, timeless wisdom.

I think it is, because we're gonna
refer to three different translations

of verse two, because they're all
a little, quite a bit different.

But Sam, I said you had to limit
it to two different translations.

Okay, well, I'm gonna pitch, we refer
to Steven Mitchell because he's just

a go-to, and we should refer to Ursula
la Kayla Gwynn, because it just.

I just can't pin you down.

I did sit.

I've gotta let go.

It's true.

I am a slippery fish.

Yeah, yeah, it's true.

I'm, I said you could have max
two translations and we have zero

feedback on the last episode.

'cause it got published five minutes
ago, so they might all be going, whoa.

What was all the translations?

Man, I think you're right.

The feedback is gonna be Sam.

It's okay to nerd out, but that was too
far and, and I think the feedback on this

one will be, that was more manageable.

Thank you for cutting back to three.

Okay.

So we're anticipating our audience's
feedback and And adjusting in advance.

Yeah, exactly.

Okay.

I like it.

Yeah.

I'm very dynamic.

It's the best we can do, but also
I think we're all right at it.

But I also will pitch that the.

Other two translations I want to use,
I've picked for very particular reasons.

One is Ursula La Kayla g Guin,
which many of you will love.

She's a renowned environmentalist and
author and just all round legend who

I think did probably more to introduce
Eastery stuff to the West than.

She's given credit for.

We normally hear names like Alan
Watts, Thomas Merton, people like that.

Um, it would be good to have someone
who's not Alan Watts because every time

I share an Alan Watts thing, I'm always
like, oh no, that wife beating alcoholic.

Yeah.

It's a, it's a real bummer.

It's like he was not
just a little bit No bad.

He was pretty bad.

He was real bad.

Yeah.

And I really love his shit.

So it's like, like his books are good.

It's, it's more his talks for me.

You know, it's more his spiritual
entertainer kind of stuff.

Same as with Ramdas, and I went
back to Ramdas the other day,

Sam, and I've heard all his gags.

And you realize that these
recordings from the, you know,

mid sixties till the nineties.

Mm-hmm.

He's using some of the same gags.

He's like a standup.

He's a standup comedian man.

Yeah.

He's got, he's got his bits
and he's recycling bits.

He is recycling bits.

But when I first got onto Ramdas, I was
like, holy shit, this guy's so fresh.

This is amazing.

This has given me the
spiritual education I need.

And then I struggled at the
start to understand Alan Watts.

Mm-hmm.

And then I've worked my way up
to understanding Alan Watts.

Then I looked into it and found out he
was this shocking, alcoholic, violent man.

Yes.

And that kind of you I'm a bit
of, I'm very much a separate the

art from the artist kind of guy.

I'm less that, but yeah.

I'm halfway.

Yeah, I am.

Yeah.

But.

I mean, I haven't gone back
and watched Louis the show.

No, but I, I struggle with it.

Yeah.

Be able to, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Maybe in that case it, it ruined
the actual jokes or something.

It did a bit.

And look Louis's way less of a
monster than Alan Watts possibly.

Mm.

Which is weird because Alan Watts
comes to us as this like, embodiment

of like, could being cool and zen
and like he could do calligraphy.

He could read.

You know, the Chinese characters,
he was like a really reasonable

scholar and a bit of a showman.

And he founded some
communities and he did a lot.

But unfortunately he had these terrible
afflictions in his life and he was

not able to, I think, fully practice
the zen that he really wanted to.

Thomas Merton, also famous translation of
some verses from Chang Zu, uh, Chang Zu.

He also had some personal demons.

Um, I found out.

And more directed towards
himself than towards others?

I think so.

That's maybe a little better.

Ursula Le Guin, as far as
I know, no flies on her.

Yeah.

So it might be time for me to
go through an Ursula phase.

Well, she's a fantastic novelist.

Some people have called her sci-fi.

Some people have called her fantasy.

You know, some people have called her a
feminist novelist, an environmentalist

novelist, a Daoist novelist.

I think maybe she's all all
of those things to a degree.

But in the Wizard of Earth Sea,
in way back in the sixties, a.

A, a story about a boy who has power, but
he has to learn to use it responsibly.

And he, he unleashes a curse upon himself.

He basically creates a shadow version of
himself, and then he runs away from it,

and he has to reconcile with the shadow.

It's very doubt, it illustrates a lot
of what we're talking about today, and

so that there's a reason why Ursula
Le Guin did her own translation.

And you can hear her read it yourself
on, uh, online as well if you want.

But the third translation I wanted
to mention was by Alistair Crowley.

Oh, the Satanist.

The Satanist.

And talk about bad guys.

I mean, this guy, I mean,
he's cancel proof in a sense.

People have tried to cancel him
for years 'cause he is a bad guy.

But he's worth mentioning
because he's such a giant figure

in occult circles and just.

You know, Western spirituality, like
it or not, corral is part of the

landscape and he sees value in this text.

So it's, it's showing you.

Can I, can I ask you a question, Sam?

Mm-hmm.

Do you think I've been drawn
towards the occult in my last

10 years of spiritual searching?

Because before that I was just an atheist.

Yeah, you were a pretty hardcore
materialist 'cause you did have a, yeah.

You did have a Marxist up.

Bringing and the, yeah, only money.

I was a rational rationalist.

Materialist, atheist.

Yes.

And, and then for the last,
roughly 10 years, since I got out

of the psych ward last mm-hmm.

I've been on a spiritual journey.

Yeah.

And I feel like at times I've
been drawn towards the occult.

Oh, same.

Like, 'cause that's where
all the cool shit happens.

Well, I was obsessed with Houdini
when I was a kid and Oh, that, that's,

that's a cult adjacent as well.

But years later, after reading a lot
about Houdini, like two years into

my obsession, I kind of realized
actually he was not a mystic at all.

He was constantly going around
trying to debunk the mystics.

Mm.

And so he, he was a bit of a, um,
Adam ruins everything kind of guy.

Not an obs, not a mystification
guy, but it has to be acknowledged.

That the mystical stuff can help
people, but it's also full of grifters.

Yes.

And dangerous people.

I don't think I've spent
any money on spiritual.

Oh no.

I went to a kinesiologist once.

Oh, that's okay.

I had met her on a dating app and we,
the dating didn't really go anywhere.

Then we became friends and
then I was having a hard time.

She said, oh, you can
come in for a treatment.

What is kinesiology?

Uh, it was very strange.

He went through pages in a book and
stopped at random places and read

things out and said at all times, in
all places, please protect this soul.

And then she told me to go and like, go
somewhere unusual that I wouldn't normally

go and stand there and wait for a change.

And, whoa, $230.

Now my highly trained clinical
psychologist only charges me 180.

That's a bargain.

Yeah, it's a bargain.

I think she must find me interesting
or something, or she, she hears

every time about how broke I am.

Is that a.

Yeah, well, she might have a sliding
scale, which a lot of people do.

A friend of mine said she thought she
might have a day job and she just does

a few clients on the side to keep her
le and psychoanalysis brain working.

I wish there were more therapists
that weren't full-time.

Yeah, I think part-time is better.

I think she might be part-time
because how is she getting away

with any charge Me 180 anyway.

Yeah, that's a good one.

Kinesiology two 30.

I really, it was really weird
and it's a strange experience.

It kind of made me realize,
well, I met you on a dating app.

I kind of would rather be sleeping
with you than giving you $230

for you to read out of a book.

Look, I think it's just good to
be straight up with people, but

having said that, it's possible that
kinesiology might've helped, and I

think having an experimental mindset
in life, being willing to risk 230

bucks is maybe not such a bad thing.

I mean, I'm in an okay place right now.

Maybe it was the
kinesiology, you never know.

Anything could make a difference.

I, I had like a shaman healer type
person whose primary modality was

like, I don't know what you'd call it.

Like she was a chiropractor
I guess, but she had Oh yeah.

The chiropractors get weird, don't they?

It's a gateway.

Yeah.

She, she had, uh, you know,
nutrition stuff going on and

we know that's a gateway.

But no, she just wanted me to
eat more protein in the morning,

which is like, good advice.

But she also hypnotized me and did
these body movement things and like.

I gotta say, I think she might've
helped, you know, the number

one charlatan on the internet.

Joe Dispenza, yeah.

Was a chiropractor.

Oh yeah.

Big time.

A lot of those guys are, and I've
also met chiropractors who I think

are pretty solid and trustworthy.

And so it's just, it's like anything,
it's, they're open to more ideas.

And occasionally, well, you know,
like Isaac Newton for example.

Massive brain box.

Did a lot for maths
and physics, et cetera.

So I did a lot for the rationalist
worldview, but was also a total

intellectual freak who was into some
very weird stuff as well, and had crazy

theories about all kinds of stuff.

But you know, we still.

We still make use of the part
of his work that just stands up.

So in fairness to the kinesiologist,
there might be some part of

it that is just right on.

I must say I had very strong mystical
experiences in acupuncture where

this guy was doing, like setting
things on fire on me, whoa cupping.

But I was, that was just before
I went to the psych ward.

So I think I was already
in the, you were primed.

I was sort of slipping into psychosis.

Does Accu acu, the acupuncturists
get pretty weird too.

They can cupping.

Is, is that cupping that they doing?

No, there was no cupping.

That's a different thing.

He would put moha on certain points
and then set it on fire and then I

just went into other realms and stuff.

Wow.

Moha means liberation in, you
know, you're going well spiritually

when you go into the other realms.

Yeah, you know, or going really badly and
about to get locked up in the psych ward.

Do you know I glimpse
the other realms, Joe.

I set a toe in them sometimes.

Occasionally I stick my head through
the door and have a look around it.

Feel like you were raised with
access to the other realms and you've

worked your way back into being a
fairly boring middle class person.

Do you know what this whole thing
exactly, just, I've been running a

scam since I was 12, which is persuade
all the normies on one of them.

It's true.

How's it going?

Well, let's read out the da Ching and
do you think I've, you know, do you

think I've succeeded or, you know,
in being, becoming a normie or, uh,

I think you're just on the surface, a
strange person with a strange energy,

so you'll never fully blend in.

You know, you're just a natural freak.

Yeah, I just don't think.

Yeah, it's a lost cause, but I can
just try and sand down some of the

rough edges and just be less annoying.

Maybe that could, you know, I'm always
up for you being this annoying Sam.

Alright, well let's, yeah.

Thank you.

Well, let's start with, you know,
the fairly uncontroversial, uh,

Stephen Mitchell translation
from 1995 ding verse two.

When people see some things as
beautiful, other things become ugly.

When people see some things as good.

Other things become bad being
and non-being create each

other difficult and easy.

Support each other long and short.

Define each other high and low,
depend on each other before

and after, follow each other.

Therefore, the master acts without
doing anything and teachers,

without saying anything, things
arise and she lets them come.

Things disappear and she lets them go.

She has but doesn't possess
acts, but doesn't expect when

her work is done, she forgets it.

That is why it lasts forever.

I think we're gonna have to line
by line that Sam, so I don't know.

There's too much in it.

Yeah.

So that like, you can't sort of
bite that whole thing off in one go.

Can you, so I'm happy to line by line
or do you wanna read other translations?

Sure.

Well, yeah, let's, um, let's hear from
Ula Laquinn because I think it would

be helpful to just read the whole
thing one more time so that people

get it in their heads and then we
start line by line everybody on earth.

Knowing that beauty is
beautiful makes ugliness,

everybody knowing that goodness
is good makes wickedness for being

and non being a rise together.

Hard and easy.

Complete each other, long and short.

Shape each other.

Note and voice.

Make the music together before and after.

Follow each other.

That's why the wise soul does without
doing teachers, without talking, the

things of this world exist They are.

You can't refuse them
to bear and not to own.

To act and not lay claim to do
the work and let it go for just

letting it go is what makes it stay.

Mm, I really like that.

It's good, isn't it?

Did you wanna read a third translation?

Yeah, why not?

So let's get that out.

I didn't want you to, I didn't wanted
you to choose two, but you defied me.

Well, let, I did Well,
let's, let's get the beast.

Well, I think for me and the audience,
we all need to let these wash over

us and we'll come back and pick
one and line by line at, you know.

Yeah.

I think that's the way to go.

So here's Alistair Crowley.

All men know that beauty and ugliness are
correlatives, as are skill and clumsiness.

One implies and suggests the other.

So also existence and non-existence
pose the one the other.

So also is it with ease and difficulty,
length and shortness, height and lowness.

Also, music exists through harmony of
opposites, time and space depend upon

contra position by the use of this method.

The sage can fulfill his will without
action and utter his word without speech.

All things arise without dissidence.

They grow and none interferes.

They change according
to their natural order.

Without lust of result.

The work is accomplished.

Yet continue with in
its orbit without goal.

This work is done unconsciously.

This is why its energy is indefatigable.

Mm.

So I think I wanna line by
line the earth of the Guin one.

I think it's the clearest.

I think that's the one
that sings the most.

It does.

So let's just do that.

Great.

Everybody on earth knowing
that beauty is beautiful.

Makes ugliness okay now.

Huge problem in my life, Sam.

Yeah, is judgment.

Yes.

I judge everything correct.

I get up in the morning, I look at
my kettle as I'm boiling the kettle,

and I got opinions about the kettle.

I'm like, that's not a good kettle.

You know?

I agree.

And then I go to the bathroom and I
think, I don't like this bathroom.

And then I'll make a coffee and I'll
be like, I really like this coffee.

And then my whole day.

Every single thing that I
encounter, I judge as good or bad.

Now, I don't know if I'm
the only one who does that.

No, surely not.

But what I've noticed is when it creeps
into relationships, it's a problem.

It's the beginning of the end of
a friendship or a relationship.

Mm-hmm.

Is the judgment, but I don't
know how to switch it off.

So the first line of this, it's not
even saying it's a problem, isn't it?

It's just saying, when you decide
something's good, you immediately

make someone something else bad.

Yes.

That's why I, I agree entirely.

So what I, one thing I like a lot
about the da de Ching is that.

I feel like it's not preachy.

I feel like it's just
telling you how it is now.

Others will disagree.

Others will say, no, this
text has a point of view.

It's unfair to just claim that
this text is sort of just more

objectively true than anything else.

But when I first read this stuff, it
just seemed like cool mumbo jumbo.

If I'm honest right now, when I read it.

It seems like genuine, simple truth.

To me, it doesn't seem overly,
doesn't seem highfalutin.

It doesn't seem highfalutin because
I sure as hell can vibe with

this idea that I'm going around.

Just my mind is discriminating.

It's going, I like that.

I don't like that, and I'm looking at
this building and going, mm, it's ugly.

I'm looking at this other building
and going, that's more like it.

Why can't more stuff look like that?

Where the modern world is ugly?

Look at this bus shelter.

What an absolute travesty.

What, what an offense to both practicality
and aesthetic, but what is the Tao

Dao de Ching saying is the price to
be paid for this constant judging?

Great question.

I think it's inviting us to
draw our own conclusions.

And I mean, of course, look,
once you've gotten through the

whole 72 verses or whatever, I
mean, I think it is pointing you.

It's definitely pointing
you towards something.

But I think with this, it's like, it's,
it's laying a statement before us and

it's inviting us to really try and
understand what that means and just try

and observe as we go through life and
observe our own reactions to things.

But to answer your question, the problem
is with being, with our obsession with

beauty, we're actually making the u we
are making the things we find U uglier.

But is it, is it suddenly implying that we
might not know what we're talking about?

Yeah.

It's also saying that like we
don't know what's good and bad.

We don't know what's beautiful and ugly.

It's saying, fine, have a judgment.

You're a human being.

You're just walking
around full of opinions.

That's just the nature of humans.

It's kind of being quite forgiving
and understanding and matter

of fact about it, but it's, but
it's pointing to something else.

Yes.

Beyond that, we could be,
yes, we could be, yes.

Not doing that.

Right.

It's really, it's, I, to me
it's trying to say, bro, you

don't have to live like this.

If you Yes.

If you don't want to.

Recognize that living like this, thinking
like this is causing you suffering.

I like it.

All right.

Next line.

Yeah, that's really good.

Yeah.

Thank you everybody.

Knowing that goodness is good.

Makes wickedness.

It's pretty much the same point, isn't it?

You?

Yeah, I think it's fine.

Structurally, it's fine
to say yes structurally.

These are logical correlates.

They are formulated in the same way,
but I think it's necessary to make

the two statements and I'll say why.

Yeah.

I think that talking about
beauty and ugliness is a

very deliberate opening move.

It's in theory not important, is it?

Right?

We're all told that beauty is superficial.

It's, you know, skin deep, skin deep.

It's not what really matters.

It's the content of the person that
matters, you know, and sure, all of

that's true, maybe, but I think it wants
to invite us into the world of surfaces

to begin with and to really talk about
something that we all know matters.

And as much as we'd like beauty
not to matter, we know it does.

Beauty is sexy, right?

So it's, it's opening
up with some sexy stuff.

So beauty and ugliness and then
goodness and wickedness, was it?

Exactly.

So then the second verse,
it's, look, goodness is a lot

less sexy than beauty, right?

Mm-hmm.

So.

It's gonna hit us with the sexy
example first 'cause it's more potent.

And then invite us to the deeper
meditation, which is, well,

what is we mistake the beautiful
for the good all the time.

We mistake the ugly for
the bad all the time.

So that's why it then talks
about goodness and wickedness.

And do you, can I ask you, do you
believe there's such a thing as evil?

Not, uh, like a sort of
true metaphysical evil.

Uh, I go back and forth on this one.

I'm definitely not a sort of,
Satan is real, you know, type.

I don't think even Alistair Crowley
felt that Satan was real at all times.

But, uh, I think that he, you know,
just for the record, I think Alistair

Crowley was a bad guy, but I think
he was trying to, he was trying

to live a life without hypocrisy.

That's what these satanists are on about.

Mm.

They're like.

Call me good, call me bad.

It means nothing to me.

I accept who and what I am, but do
you personally believe that there's

such a, a force in the world as evil?

I think what I think Crowley set
out to try and find that out and to

try to engage actively with evil.

And from what I understand of his
biography, he as a result caused a lot

of suffering to others and he experienced
a lot of suffering himself and I.

I think that he did believe there was a
malevolence in the universe that you could

access and use, or that it was just there.

In any case, I do come away with the idea
that for all of his bad and wickedness,

that Crowley was a humanist, and that
he believed that humans had the task

and the burden and the right to define
that reality for themselves, and that.

There was no getting around it,
that we were the ones who were

gonna say what things mean.

And I, I think that we're the ones
doing the discriminating, right?

And so I think ultimately
Crowley does not believe in evil.

It does not believe in Satan, but he.

But we can make, we can manifest
these things if we want.

It's interesting that
you deferred to Crowley.

Well, because I think he's, and
I was asking what you think.

Well, because he's the embodiment of evil
to a lot of people, so, so I kind of see

him as a little bit of an authority on it.

And I guess that tells
you something about me.

I do want to defer to, but if someone
does something bad in your neighborhood,

do you think, oh, that's evil?

Or do you think it was the
circumstances of their life?

Yeah.

So to get what that led up to the,
that led up to the bad thing happening.

'cause I, 'cause my personal view is
that it's, everything's just kind of

this runoff from the Big Bang and the
Yes, I'm a bit determinist in that sense.

There's probably nothing much we
could have done to change any of it.

I'm, I'm the latest bad thing that
happens in your neighborhood was.

Inevitable from something,
from someone being born Sure.

50 years before.

Sure.

I'm, I'm less deterministic
than that, but to answer your

question more bluntly, no, I.

I don't believe in a metaphysical evil.

No, I don't think I do either.

No.

But I believe but con in contradiction
to that, I believe in a loving awareness.

Yes.

That is kind of what the
universe is made out of.

Yes.

That I can drop into in meditation because
I've had strong experiences with that.

Mm-hmm.

So that's, there's a contradiction.

I, I, I can't.

Scientifically prove that, of course.

But it feels real.

But it's, it's been noted by meditators
for about 3000 years at least.

Yes, exactly.

And I think that there were times
in my life where I felt, yeah, I had

a little crack, just a little peek
through the crack in the door into

like that cosmic world of, you know.

Wow.

And just by the very same token,
when I was at my, some of my most

vulnerable moments and maybe doing.

Doing a lot of things that weren't
good for my health and, uh, my sanity

that I think that there were times
I felt the presence of evil, like

when I was in that sort of estate.

Yeah.

I mean, certainly a bad acid trip to
me felt like I was Yeah, trapped in.

Encased in evil.

Yes.

And there was no escaping it.

That's right.

So I had that kind of experience of
evil as this thing outside the self

that I was now brushing up against.

But then over time, the most recent
experience I had like that is actually

only probably in the last six months.

And it was the closest to
like a delusional episode that

I've had in quite some time.

Although Adam said, no,
no, no, that was not.

Delusion or perps psychosis,
you know, edge of psychosis.

It felt like that to you.

But what was actually happening is
you were actually having a profound

confrontation with your own reality
and, and reality itself, and you just

found it incredibly uncomfortable.

Adam?

Adam being a therapist.

Yeah, my therapist.

Yeah.

And I think he's right.

It felt like a spooky, in
a bad way experience, but.

What was really happening was I had just
sort of a couple of hours of profound,

like of profoundly recognizing my own
ugliness and not in the superficial sense,

in the inside sense of really confronting
the idea that I was a bad person.

But yeah, for the decade that I've been
mostly single, some of my behavior has

suffered, has strayed into the evil.

Mm-hmm.

You know, or what I would describe as
well, what's the, what's the verse say?

Yeah, good.

And wickedness.

Well, yeah.

Everybody knowing that goodness
is good makes wickedness.

Yeah, I think I've been in
the wickedness big time.

Me too.

And what came to mind earlier when
you were talking about, yeah, this

experience of coming up against
it and you know, of evil in the

world, evil in the self, you know?

'cause whether we think these
things are real or not, I guess

we sometimes experience them that.

Uh, I started to think about, you know,
'cause we often think about wickedness as

sin and evil as related to sin and so on.

Well, those of us who've had any adjacency
to Christianity at all, and I'm one of

those people that believes that, uh,
many of us in, you know, in English

speaking countries, uh, are unconsciously
Christian whether we realize it or not.

And that this word wickedness
brings to mind the Bible and sin

and clarifying my understanding of.

What's, what these people thought sin
was has been very interesting to me.

It was something metaphysical and magical.

And growing up at Harry Krishna, there
was a lot of talk of sin, and it was this,

it's this magical substance that's bad.

And if you Yeah.

Touch it, it's gonna get into you.

Yeah.

But what I now know, what I think
to be true now I'm a hundred percent

sure about this, that what sin really
is, what this idea is pointing us to.

Is a failure to love others as oneself.

That's basically what it, because I
heard it described as the translation

is really to miss the mark.

Miss the mark, yes.

Like an archer might miss the target.

That's the sin is to miss the mark.

Yes.

And not in the sense that, oh, you
weren't skillful enough to pull

this thing off, but that you didn't.

Recognize the moment.

Mm.

And you failed, or, or you did
recognize the moment but didn't have the

courage to, to react in the right way.

Something like that.

That, you know, someone asks for
your help and you are able to help

and you don't, or someone says, that
thing you are doing is hurting me.

Please don't do that.

But you fail to heed that or, yeah.

A friend calls up and they, they need.

To someone to talk to and
you know, you, you, you don't

manage to be there for them.

That's one, that's something I've
regretted many times or being

preoccupied with my own concerns
and not, not allowing that other

people have concerns that are equal.

Mm-hmm.

To my own.

But this is saying that that dichotomy
between wickedness and good is

maybe a bit of an illusion anyway.

Yeah.

So it is saying that now it's
not hand waving it all away,

so let's be careful here.

Right.

What's the next, let's
move on to the next line.

Well, okay.

We can, but I do.

I will wanna circle back for a
second for being and non being

arise together hard and easy.

Complete each other long and short.

Shape each other.

Note and voice.

Make the music together before and after.

Follow each other.

Whoa.

So that last line, I
think really clarifies.

All the stuff before it.

It's not a, it sounds groovy
like Ooh, before and after.

Well, yeah, but think just
logically before comes before after,

but after that, after, there's
the before of something else.

So it's all just, you know, you've said,
oh, this thing is before that thing.

Therefore that's the cause.

But there were things before
that, and things before

that, and things before that.

Which brings us back to
goodness and wickedness.

But was there anything before the big
bang though that I can't tell you?

I wish.

I wish I could.

So that's as far back as we can go.

Really?

Yeah.

To does Was there a before
there or There is no, before.

Before that.

So well, some say that you look, even if
you just, you're a total thorough going

rationalist, materialist, and you accept
sort of the latest thinking in all of

that area, that there's nothing to say.

This is my current layman's understanding.

There's nothing to say that before
that big bang, there was a prior.

You know, com, compaction of
the universe, and then po.

So it, it might've gone
crunch, poof, crunch, poof.

Countless times already.

Yeah, it's possible.

Which would align with kind
of what the Buddhists say.

It would.

Very much.

Yeah.

You know, or the, like, this
has been going on forever, a

lot longer than you realize.

And, and the Hindu creation, which
is, uh, there's too much in it.

I'll try and summarize.

That, you know, Vishnu is
lying on a bit of snakes.

The, the snakes is his brother
and has a hundred heads and is

reciting the vaders constantly.

And, uh, those two, uh, joined by Lakshmi,
the goddess of Fortune, which is just.

Uh, basically the female half of the,
the di you know, the divinity that the

divinity contains, these opposites, right?

Or these apparent opposites.

They're not actually
opposite very dow thing.

And that's on a bed of that.

So that bed of snakes is
floating on an ocean of milk.

And that ocean of milk is,
is, you know, the causal ocean

from which all things arise.

And Vishnu is breathing the
universes out of the pauses.

Of his skin and then the universes
are getting breathed back in, in

the counter breath, and that's
just happening over and over.

Never really vibed with the
Hindu stuff, I'll be honest.

It's a little too far out.

There's a lot.

Yeah.

I mean, even when I was in India, I'd
walk into the temples, it'd be like, whoa.

There's a lot going on.

Well, and I was gonna say, if you've
been raised in sort of Western culture,

it will, like I had a, I had a friend
who was not particularly religious, but.

There's being was raised Catholic,
but India, India struck her as

like overwhelming and pagan and
like idol worship and stuff.

It kind of hit them.

Yeah.

Stupid question maybe, but does being
a Harry Krishna make you a Hindu?

Well, some Hindus would say no.

Oh.

Oh.

So it's not a stupid question.

It's a complicated question.

It is.

So there's.

Depending on which, you know, say, so
there's Narva, there's Worship Vishnu, and

there's Shiites who Wish Worship Shiva.

And, uh, there's a, a
handful of Brahma worshipers.

So those, those three, Brahma, Vishnu,
Shiva are the, like, the sort of the

trinity, the creator, maintainer,
and destroyer of the universe.

Hang on, I thought you
guys worshiped Krishna.

Yeah, well, Krishna's,
uh, like considered.

By Krishna followers to be
the main version of Vishnu.

Like, oh, so there's all this dispute.

Fuck.

It's a complicated religion.

So yeah, who's the real,
who's the real one?

God?

Right?

And part of this mess has been created
by, well, you've got this polytheistic.

Thing.

It's got a whole bunch of gods.

But then remember, this thing's
been around for thousands of years.

It's not one thing.

It's changed an awful lot.

It's been influenced by Buddhism, it's
been influenced by Christianity, and

they've tried to sort of adapt it to
a more monotheistic situation, just

so to put it on a foothold, like an
equal footing with Islam, for example,

which really had a big impact in India.

Yeah.

Um, people may not realize.

And that a lot of Hindus are, uh, very
nationalistic and they see Hinduism as

kind of synonymous with being Indian.

And India is one at one with the concept
of being Hindu and that it's, this is an

ethnic designation and not a thing you do.

Right?

So you are born Hindu.

You are Hindu by.

Having certain Yeah.

Genes and looking a certain way.

But something happened with the
Hari Krishna that made them dance

around the streets of western cities.

Well, exactly.

So it just being white people.

Exactly right.

So, well, it's a sort of rainbow.

This is this global rainbow movement.

Right?

But how did all these non-Jews
end up becoming Christians?

It was the same sort of thing.

So if Jesus, if we take the literal sort
of story, it's like Jesus is saying.

Uh, look, there's a bunch of stuff
there in that Old Testament, which is

not right or doesn't apply right now,
and there's a bunch of stuff in there,

which is, you know, still applicable.

But we need to reform this a bit, and it's
not about the point of being a proper, I.

Jew is not following the dietary laws to
the letter and circumcision and all that.

That's not what makes you
a good follower of God.

What makes you a good follower of God is
to love one another and to give charity

to the poor and you know, feed the hungry.

That's what makes you a
good Christian, right?

That's what makes you a
good, a proper Jew, right?

That was what he was trying to,
he was reforming the religion.

And then that meant that
membership was now open to

Gentiles and to all other, and St.

Paul comes along and says, right,
we're abolishing these categories, uh,

of Jew and Gentile we're abolishing.

These categories of slave and
free person of man and woman even

are abolished within this church.

The Ians are a bit the same.

Jayan comes along about five, 600 years
ago, and he says the caste system is.

Not good.

We are making false distinctions between
people, so he questions the car system.

He says, really, we should all be equal.

In the eyes of God, we, we, we
are, we can't be any other way.

And he was basically kind of this bit
gender-bending and was sort of trying

to abolish caste and nation and even
religious identity and abolish the gender

hierarchy and stuff at the same time.

And was saying.

Yeah, let's build a house
that everyone can live in.

Hmm.

And so it becomes, so Hinduism goes on, it
hits the road, it becomes this evangelical

religion after thousands of years.

But then, does that mean all the other
Hindus have to recognize any of that?

No.

They don't, and some of them
just won't recognize it.

Mm.

And that's fine.

That's up to them.

Interesting.

And look, if, if I decide to go and
become a Catholic tomorrow or whatever,

just for fun, they'll, they'll be
like, Hey, sure, come to church.

You're a Catholic now.

But my prediction for you that, you
know, my prediction for you, Sam, is as

you get older, you'll go back to your
Krishna possibly and be, get more into it.

That's my, I could be wrong, but you
haven't fully renounced it, so it's still.

There if you want it.

Well, I feel about it the way, and
you, you're an agnostic essentially.

I feel like I can't
renounce or embrace it.

I'm sort of in that spot.

But as you get older, you
might a few more gray hairs.

You might start embracing it.

I that it's entirely possible
because you were raised with it.

When you're raised with something,
it's hard to gets in there.

Well, you know, but it's like, can you
renounce being an Australian or can you

renounce, you know, in theory you can,
you can take up another, you can get

another passport and you can give up this
one and go live somewhere else and, you

know, become a total expat and or can you.

You know, like you be grow
growing up an atheist, and can you

fundamentally change your view on that?

Yeah.

Yep.

You've proven that people can
change their view on that.

Personally, I find, I do.

I, I struggle to engage with religion
unless I feel the presence of God.

So for me, that's a bit of a stumbling
block, whereas a lot of people

are happy to be social, socially
religious, you know, it's like.

You know, the old Jewish guy on his
deathbed and, you know, his, his

uh, non-Jewish friend comes to visit
him and says, oh, well, you know,

at least you have your religion.

That must be a great comfort
to you at this difficult time.

And he said, what are you talking about?

You know, you went to Temple every week.

Yeah.

That's where my friends are.

Yeah.

And you know, go where your mates are.

Absolutely.

It's actually a good segue 'cause I wanted
to bring you back to being and non being.

Yeah.

Well, and because it makes me think of
a Joseph camp, the, my favorite quote

about God by anyone is Joseph Campbell.

Okay.

About how God transcends all
categories, including the

categories of being a non being.

What's the line in the ding?

Yeah, that's very, uh,
that's very Joseph Campbell.

Yeah.

For being a non, being a rise together.

Being a non, being a rise together.

I don't fully understand that, Sam.

I won't lie.

I've only got my creative arts
degree from Melbourne University.

I'm not an expert.

Okay.

Well, we didn't Being and non being
arise together, what is non being Well.

All the people that don't
exist anymore, but did once.

That's one example.

Okay, so to use a perhaps a bit of a
cliched Zen example, but I think it works.

What makes this a fist
versus an open hand, right?

So where does the fist go?

When I open my hand, did it ever exist?

Is it just, you know, or
Gregory Bateson said You don't

have four fingers and a thumb.

You've got five relationships.

You know, you don't
have grass and a horse.

These two things are together.

Yeah.

You know, and everything's relationships.

So.

You know, or to get, you know, so this,
this, I'm noticing this text brings

you to like a 3:00 AM conversation.

Well, yeah.

Constantly.

It's like the 3:00 AM coming
down off a drug conversation.

Well, totally.

Like, what does it all mean, man?

Well, it get, well, it get, it
gets you to an existential place.

Yeah.

And I, I think it does that on purpose.

Yeah.

Just does it over and over and
like each line, it's, it's not

abolishing, it's not saying that.

There's no objective reality to anything.

It's all just definitions, man.

It's, it's not quite as loose as that.

So this thing about everybody
knowing that goodness is good makes

wickedness, I feel like we need to go
back to that in order to go forward.

'cause what that's saying to me, what
that's saying is everybody thinks they

know what doing the right thing is,
but do they, it might be a much more

difficult question than we would care
to admit, or we might walk around going.

I'm a good person.

I just did that thing.

That was a good thing.

I'm sure of it.

I'm a good person.

Easy.

Yeah.

I think, yeah.

It's not easy though, is it?

What I'm finding with this text is
if I could fully rock it and I can't,

I would be an incredibly wise human.

Yeah, I'll admit to feeling the
same frustration at times, and I,

I don't think I can claim to be
understanding it any better than you.

I do think that the text presents
frustrations, and I think that

that is part of its method.

Yeah, it's, it's sort of like,
hurts my brain, but in a good way.

Like I'm scratching an each Well, what's
the next, well, okay, so, so look.

In order for what it's saying is that
people having to me like we're so know,

we're so certain that we exist and we do.

And one of the, I'm not one of these
people that says this is all just

an illusion, but also we're all
really, really, really aware that

we're not gonna exist at some point.

Yeah.

Other than a memory.

Right.

That is the great burden of
human life is the recognition

that it ends at some point.

So the fact of being here is defined.

By the non-being that
lies before and after.

Yeah.

Okay.

Now I know what non-being is and the
non-being gives meaning to the life,

and life gives meaning to the non-being.

Unfortunately, it, the, the,
the love for you, you have

for your children illuminates.

They're non-existence, you know?

Yeah.

And parents will often wonder what their
life would be like without those children.

Yeah.

You know, if it wasn't for you
to be easier, if it wasn't for

you, my life would mean nothing.

Yeah.

All those statements might
be true at different times.

And, and the same goes for, you know,
like, oh, my glass of water is empty.

Uh, it was full before, and I'm, I'm not
trying to be far out with this, but like,

the fact of the, the glass having water
in it to a certain kind of person, I look

at that and go, well, it'll be empty.

Once it's fulfilled its purpose and
then, then its purpose is to be empty

and to be filled and, you know, so.

I think, I think you should read some
more because I think really Sam, to

ever get through an episode on, on the
doubted Jing, we have to keep rolling.

Yeah.

We have to keep rolling and
let things wash over people.

Okay.

'cause we read three
translations at the start.

They could be still washing over
people half an hour later and

we're, we're trying to line by line.

Alright, so I just don't think we
can, I think every line is an hour.

So to reorient ourselves, so far we've
had those two chunk chunks up the top.

The one about beauty and ugliness.

Then the next chunk is about
goodness and wickedness.

And then we've got this chunk
being and non being, and the

other heap of other stuff.

Basically, it just gives you a list.

Being a non, being a rise together,
hard and easy, complete each other,

long and short, shape each other.

Note and voice.

Make the music together before and after.

Follow each other.

So just grab any one of those, I guess.

Yeah, but keep going.

Okay, well that's a chunk.

Yeah.

So if we're gonna line by
line, okay, well, okay.

We can finish it out.

That's why the wise soul does, without
doing teachers, without talking,

the things of this world exist.

I.

They are.

You can't refuse them to bear and
not to own, to act and not lay

claim to do the work and let it go.

For just letting it go
is what makes it stay.

So it's in, wow.

Is that the end of it?

Yes, that's the end.

Okay.

So the two things I loved in there
were teach without talking and

doing the work and letting it go.

Yeah.

Like.

Yeah.

People rephrase that shit all the
time doing the work and letting

it go and, and make money by
selling that as a like an idea.

Yeah, yeah.

Like trust the process.

Yes.

And like fame, like football teams that
win, premierships focus on the process.

The cats and the cats
did a lot of meditation.

In the lead up to their
comeback from the wilderness.

Yeah.

I think a lot of American football too
has been focused on trust the process

and let go of the outcome because it's
coming straight out of what, 400 bc.

Okay.

Well, and let's use this example from
school and then teach without talking.

Yeah.

I mean, you're a teacher.

I want to hear your opinion on that.

I think let's do those two and then finish
up, because otherwise we're gonna have a

too long an episode, but well, luckily.

Yeah.

Any concept in this verse
illuminates all the other concepts.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So fortunately you can talk about
any one of them because they're

all part of the same truth.

Well, let's talk about, you were
starting to talk about what's the

line about trusting the process.

Well do the work and let it go.

Basically, do the work and let it go.

Well, she says, well, it goes
hand in hand with this other bit.

To bear and not to own.

So that which you carry, just because
it's in your hands doesn't mean Yeah.

Doesn't mean you truly own it.

Right.

And to do the, uh, to
act and not lay claim.

So, oh, I did this thing, therefore I
own the results of this action, which

we all want to do when it goes well.

Yeah, but what, but what about, what
happens, Joe, when we do something

and the result is not so good?

Yeah.

We're not in a hurry to lay claim to
the results of that action then, are we?

Yeah.

So to act.

And not lay claim.

And then it's exactly the same statement
in my mind to do the work and let it go.

Yeah.

It's just a recognition of reality.

You don't own it.

You don't own it.

Yeah.

Don't own anything like, yeah.

Sorry, everyone I.

You just don't, and that's, I've learned
a lot about that doing this podcast.

Mm.

Because I'll let the
listeners in on a secret.

Mm.

Secret.

We don't have millions of listeners
secret, and we don't ha get any money.

And we don't own those listeners either.

But the process, recording
it, talking to you Yeah.

And then editing it, the process.

Is very gratifying and
meaningful in itself.

And then if someone writes to us
and said, I listened to it, it's

like, wow, that's like amazing.

But I've already let go.

I've already let go.

Like I've already let go.

Yeah.

And it's a bonus.

Yes.

But that's very different.

When I was young and trying to make
films, there's a lot of ego in it.

Yeah.

What really mattered was that one time
I had a pack, cinema Incredible and

everyone singing my praises, which was
the dream that I had imagined for myself.

And eventually it happened.

Yeah, but it was all about the ego.

But it didn't fill the
unfillable hole, did it?

No.

I had to go away and work on other things.

You know what I mean?

Like mm-hmm.

I was still drinking and taking drugs and
doing all that at that stage of my life.

Your life's work.

So your true life's work
you hadn't recognized yet.

Thats right.

Yeah, maybe.

But I got the glory.

And the glory didn't, yeah,
the glory didn't fill the void.

You're right.

Lawrence Mooney has all the great
line about pe uh, and I'm there at the

bar sinking another one, and people
are queueing up to tell me how good

it is and I can't get enough of it.

I mean, I literally
can't get enough of it.

People can tell me all day and
I'll still want to hear it more.

'cause it never fills the
whole, the unfillable void.

And he's like his whole life.

He has been confronting the void
with comedic results and failing

to confront the void at times.

Yeah.

With tragic results in his own
life and that he's lived in terror

and in comfort of this truth.

And what the Dao is trying to just
do is just tell us it's not that it's

gonna be okay in some false sense.

But just sooner or later we'll accept
that this is the, this is the fact,

you know, that you can't hold onto it.

And what about teaching without talking?

Well, I think that's very
true because well, okay.

And it relates to the, the football
is not thinking about the outcome.

Right.

Or the tennis player not thinking about
the outcome of the shot, the golfer.

Because what happens if you think
about the outcome, Joe, right?

You're a sport ho.

You can illuminate this for us.

I think sport's a really important and
powerful example of a lot of this stuff.

If you're thinking about
the result, what happens?

Well, you would take your mind
off your technique and then what?

And you're imagining where the
ball's going to be instead of

where the ball actually is.

Yes.

So you can tank it just
by being in your head.

Yeah.

And when you really get in your
head, it's called choking, right?

Yeah.

Choking is a profound psychological
phenomena, which has been studied

a lot because it, you know, we
think it's very, very, very real.

And the brain, yeah, the brain locks up.

It ha, so you call it panic,
call it freezing, call it a, you

know, anxiety, overthinking it.

Whatever the case, but people will
find themselves, musicians, sports

people, comedians, you know, lots
of these performance contexts.

Teachers will choke.

Like, yeah, it's happened and,
but surely when you are teaching,

you're using a lot of talking.

I do use words, right, because
you've got a lot of words.

Yeah.

And well, and you've gotta direct
people verbally, but the best teaching,

so to illuminate this concept, right?

The reason I keep mentioning choking
and the performance anxiety and

this stuff, because it, it, it.

Has a, a very important place in teaching.

You don't want your students to be in
this place of being very self-conscious

about their performance, right?

So just like the athlete, you need
to be in the moment, mind fully

on what you're doing right then.

Not on the outcome.

Yeah.

The mark you're gonna get.

That's the wrong way.

And unfortunately, education too
often encourages or forces us into

being overly mindful of the result.

And I think that that is
the enemy of learning.

I.

And in the same way, words are an
important instructional medium.

It's true, very hard to get on
in the classroom without them.

However, when the student is fully
engaged in the task and the, the, the

learning is happening in their brain,
they don't need you to be saying anything.

Mm-hmm.

So you're trying, and in fact,
it's gonna be counterproductive.

And if you speak at that
moment, there's a, there's a.

Danger, you're gonna knock
them out of the flow.

That's bad.

If you do any talking in the
classroom, the only purpose should be.

To get to the doing.

So sometimes you have to set up the doing.

Why are we doing this?

What's the method?

Right?

So the why and the way, you gotta try
and set that up, but then you cut.

But not, that's just words, isn't it?

You, you discover the why
and the way through doing.

Yeah, yeah.

Teaching you make the case in words,
and then you make it with deeds.

Teaching without talking
reminds me of border's.

Famous lesson.

Do you know about that one?

Go on.

He just, he had all the disciples there.

Yeah.

And he just held up a flower.

Yeah.

And apparently one person.

Yeah.

Got it.

Yeah.

Everyone else was like,
achieved enlightenment.

What the fuck?

Buddha's lost the plot.

Yeah.

I want be that level.

I want to be that one guy in the crowd
going, yeah, man, ah, fucking flower.

Yeah, man.

Finally stop talking.

Just showing us the flower, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Or, or you know, the sermon on the mount.

You know, consider the
lilies of the field.

You know, it's like one of
the most sort of weird lines

and it, it doesn't make sense.

You know?

It's like they work not, you know.

Yeah.

Like is he saying like, oh,
it's all just happening.

It's just happening man.

It's all just happening
from the Big Bang to now.

Jesus is saying what I
was just saying before.

Yeah, that's true.

And there's something very doost about
parts of the Sermon on the Mount.

Yeah.

But it's also this thing of
like, the talking is not the

doing we, but we mistake.

The names for the things themselves and
Dow's very on about that kind of stuff.

It's not saying you can succeed
as a teacher without words, but

how do you get to the result
with the least amount of words?

That's something you should always
be trying to think of as a teacher,

because there's so many kids
that just for starters, they're

gonna run out of attention very
quickly if, if you talk others.

If you're doing a good job with the
chat, others might be entranced.

And they're, it's really going in and
they're getting something from the words.

They're enjoying it.

They're in the flow of that, and
you're holding some space and

they're able to sit in that space.

Others, meanwhile aren't sitting in
that space, so you're leaving them out.

But more importantly, when the, when the
student is held in the Master's words,

they're not holding their own mastery.

Mm.

They're not holding it in their own hands.

And that's what Buddha was trying
to get the students to like.

The flower is just an interesting
object in itself, and it has, you

know, in theory has no purpose right.

Other than to pull, you know?

Yes.

But if I realize that I'm not
separate from the flower, yeah.

I'm not over here and the flower's not
over there, and Buddha's not over there

and behind the flower, it's all just one.

Yeah.

Thing in the present moment.

Yes.

Then I reach enlightenment.

Yes.

That's how I would have enlightenment
if the border showed me a flower.

Yes.

And the, and this of course, and
of course the simple beauty of it.

Yes.

And you are not sitting there going, okay.

When's Buddha going to drop the bars?

When's Buddha gonna spit the fire?

When's Buddha gonna make it happen for me?

Yeah.

And that's, and that's the thing, like
any therapist will tell you, you know,

oh, the patient is waiting for me to
make it happen for them, but it, it's

not going to like they, that's the
great disillusionment you have to have.

And the DAOs not trying to disillusion us.

It's trying to get us to like
the good thing, you know?

Yeah.

I think it's upbeat, I think it's
a positive thing in to put into

your life, but, but it is inviting
us to drop certain illusions.

Yes.

I, I find I'm enjoying these.

This is the second one of these we've
done, Sam, and I am enjoying them.

'cause it does hurt my
brain and in a good way.

Yeah.

But I think I need to, uh, I
think we need to wrap it up.

Mm-hmm.

I need a coffee.

I need Me too.

Yeah.

And you know, we're at my place and
I've got the really good coffee machine.

It's true.

We don't need to go and get one.

Yeah, yeah.

So why don't we leave it there for today.

We got through the whole verse.

Yeah.

We, we love let you have
the three translations.

I do think for me, maybe not for you,
maybe for the audience, it is a bit more

about wash, letting things wash over.

Yes.

Because yeah.

I do think line by line, I could
do an hour on each line, but I

don't know then that might not
be very doo No, it, it isn't.

But on the other hand, you do
have to spend time with the ideas

and you do have to try them out.

You have to, you have to feel the ideas,
like try and, yeah, I'm feeling it, man.

I, I'd have to listen back to think
to hear if I made any sense, but,

but you got, you gotta, you'll
like try examples out in your head.

Yeah, yeah.

Like sort of, you gotta
turn it around and like.

You're not looking for the
example that just nails it.

What you're doing is observing what
happens as you observe the ideas

and find the examples and, but
the best illustration I found for

these concepts actually was visual.

And as a filmmaker, former
filmmaker, you'd dep appreciate this.

I'll, I'll dig up the
video for the show notes.

This is Guy on YouTube that just.

Took a verse and then just shot some.

Just shot some nice motion in a forest.

At either sun up or Sundown.

Yeah.

And there's all these light and shadows.

Yeah.

And it just looks cool as hell.

But it's so simple.

Yeah.

And it just illustrates
the idea so beautifully.

That makes sense.

In a wordless way.

Yes.

Words are just there.

Well, we're the word guys.

Yeah.

'cause we've got a podcast.

Yeah.

So we have to use our words.

Exactly.

And we only started the podcast
because we had too many words.

Overflowing with them.

Oh, just an update on the
law of the podcast too, Sam.

Ooh.

Remember when we first met?

Yes.

Three years ago.

Not first met, but first reconnected.

Yes.

And I was really struggling
to get over a breakup.

Very struggling to this day when
I wouldn't stop talking about it.

To this day, when I drive down my street.

I'm worried I'm gonna see her
car at my neighbor's house.

Why?

Because in a, in a theoretical
universe, it's possible that even

though that neighbor is like 60
years old, he somehow would've

hooked up with that ex-girlfriend.

Wow.

Dunno how through a
dating app or something.

Not sure my, my brain's not
telling me that I'm twist of fate.

Sure.

It's just showing me the intrusive
thought of her car parked out

the front of my friend's house.

Yeah.

Who's done Nothing wrong?

No, that was the link.

That was the link.

Sam.

I love this.

We went there and inspected it
when he wasn't there as maybe

somewhere for her to live.

I see.

And then coincidentally, I ended
up living on the same street.

So, but because there's a potential link.

As in, she asked him,
can I live at your house?

And he said, no.

It's there forever.

Potentially.

Yeah.

Years later they track each other back
down and start having graphic sex.

That i'll That's right.

Be forced to witness somehow.

Yeah.

Somehow, yeah.

In the house.

Just down the street from my house
in, in a, in a very DAOs combination

of, oh no, don't make me watch.

Ah, just hold me back.

Oh wait, I do wanna watch ah, my eyes.

Ah, yeah.

But both.

It's exquisite torture.

That's what I wanted to say was apart from
that one intrusive thought, I get a day.

I think I'm getting over it, bro.

Yeah, you've And I've spent three
years wearing bright tracksuits.

Yeah.

And I'm not feeling so
drawn to them anymore.

Yes.

And I've spent three years
doing this show with you.

Yeah.

And it's been very cathartic, you know?

And you haven't mentioned
her very often at all.

It's, it's, it's finally shifting.

Yeah.

And I just wanted to thank you for
your part in that and that maybe the

show can move on to an, a new phase.

Yeah.

'cause I think I, I've needed to do
this as like a healing thing because

I don't think that X was just about
that one six month relationship.

Mm-hmm.

I think it might have been.

Mm-hmm.

A whole bunch of shit going back
definitely into ancient history.

For some reason that one
crystallized a bunch of stuff.

It just like, it was like, yeah, like
it triggered an avalanche of emotions

that I couldn't deal with, and all I
could think to do was put on a bright

red tracksuit and walk down Brunswick
Street or whatever, yeah's, right.

You had to make.

You know, you had to make some new moves.

Remember that?

Yeah.

I had to make myself loud.

Yes.

Remember that?

Get a voice.

Remember that great episode of Black
Books where Manny's trying to calm

down and he's trying to read from the
little book of calm and it's like, yeah.

When, when you are stressed,
uh, do something different.

Roll up your sleeves or eat an orange.

Yeah.

You know, it was that.

It was like that.

Yeah.

It's just like that.

It's like I need to make some new
moves, which is not to say I'll

never wear a tracksuit again.

But do it if you feel
the need or the desire.

But what, what happened is the season
changed and it came into tracksuit

season where it's not too hot to wear
a tracksuit, and it's like the perfect

temperature to wear one, but you haven't.

And I was like, I think I'm ready to
just leave him in the closet for a while.

You know, just for the record,
Joe's just in the blacks today.

He's got his regulation issue.

Puffer jacket.

Yeah.

I look like an an anonymous.

So my new look.

Yeah.

You ready for this?

Yeah.

It's like a Zoolander thing.

Are you ready?

It is.

It is anonymous.

Anonymous.

I'm going full anonymous.

It's the opposite of blue steel.

Yeah.

Everything that.

It's gonna make me blend in.

That's what I'm gonna wear.

Utterly unremarkable.

Yeah.

Gonna, it's kind of zen
when you think about it.

Oh yeah.

You just fade into the background.

Uh, be what is like a
samurai being No one Rams.

Yeah.

Being, no.

Yeah.

Being no.

Becoming nobody.

Becoming nobody.

That's the, yeah.

That was his doco.

Doco about it.

Yeah.

And you would, yeah.

And that the doco about his life,
which is well worth watching, but

you, at that point, I guess you
had felt completely destroyed.

And you needed to try and be someone.

And my last attempt at having an
Instagram account was terrible.

And it was just photos of me in
the tracksuit and I was looking

at it and it just felt so hollow.

You know?

I'm glad.

Think you've still got those creative
instincts to just go, no, this sucks.

Yeah, and then I deleted it.

And then you got an email for some
reason you were linked to my Instagram.

Yeah.

And you are like, are you okay bro?

I get this email at work.

Are you okay?

You're deleting your Instagram and
it's like, I've got bipolar disorder.

We all delete our social
media all the time.

It's true.

It's the main symptom.

It is such a symptom and so I guess
it becomes a tell and then you're

like, well man, I can at least
start with cutting this tell off

'cause it's not doing any good.

No, I'm, I'm, I have no social media
and it feels good, but you never know,

man, when I'm gonna crank up my fifth
Instagram account, you never know.

Look.

He could hit.

He could be back any day and the
tracksuit could be there, but this

time he's framed it the right way.

He's like, no, I'm going full anonymous.

Bro.

If you can gimme any tips of how
to blend in to being straight,

white guy more than ever.

Yeah.

Just dislike the standard issue.

Suburban dad.

That's what I'm going for.

Well, you already know
how to talk about sport.

That's good.

Yeah.

Oh, love it.

Yeah.

Dating stories that's
real camouflage, you know?

Yeah.

Well there there's not
many of them at the moment.

There's not many of them at the moment.

Yeah.

Uh, yeah, look, just, you know,
the less you've got to prove.

I mean, that's, that's a
very dow note to end on.

'cause I just Well, but you're a good
person to talk to about becoming nobody

'cause you are trying to blend in.

But I was saying to you before the show,
you're just a naturally, a bit of a freak.

You've got these bugged out kind of eyes.

You've got a Yeah.

Lot of energy.

You, you're moving at a lot of angles.

You're unusually tall and lanky.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

But you wear fairly
boring clothes and stuff.

But I do tend to, but just below the
surface is someone who's wearing a

dress on Brunswick Street, like Correct.

I feel like we both promenaded
at different times of our life.

But you, you went further
than me because you crossed.

That's a major lot.

Major Peacocking.

Peacocking.

I was peacocking for three years.

Yeah.

And it's coming up in two days time.

It'll be three years since
I got my first tracksuit.

And I feel like, 'cause I
went back through my photos.

I love that.

I was feeling reflective.

Yeah.

And it literally says delivery
coming from Aidas and it was

the first black tracksuit.

So it's three years of.

Just trying to get over this
one relationship, you know?

Meanwhile, I was contemplating buying
a tracksuit, but then I didn't.

I can tell you some.

I've got four.

Yeah, it's true.

Good price.

They might fit good price for you.

They might fit me.

Okay.

Uh, they would fit.

They'd be a bit baggy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm carrying a bit of extra, you know?

Yeah.

That, that's true.

Might might be a little
too loose in the mid Yeah.

But the right height perhaps.

But I will say also the letting it go.

Right?

So this last line for just letting
it go is what makes it stay right?

So you just, you didn't need
the bit anymore, you didn't

need to lean on the bit.

You're like, I, I can, I can let it go
and it will still be an eternal bit.

Like it's there.

People will remember, well, one day I'll
drive down my street and I won't expect

to see a car at my neighbor's house.

You'll forget to, I'll forget
to have the intrusive thought.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Graduated exposure therapy.

Look, the thing, it,
there was a purpose in it.

There was nothing wrong in making
those, there was nothing wrong in

making those moves when you made them.

And now the purpose has
passed and so, you know.

Interesting.

All right, well welcome
to my new anonymous phase.

Yeah.

And good to have you in my house
recording for the first time.

And I better go and fire up the old,
uh, Italian Expo bar espresso machine.

Oh, yes, please.

Oh, I just did it.

Our first product placement,
it is actually expo bar.

Keeping Sam and Joe caffeinated.

I really like how you have
to pull the thing down.

Oh, it's proper.

And you don't push a button.

It's proper, man.

Yeah, I've got, it's made in Italy.

I've got the button push.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, welcome to a whole new era.

Yeah.

All right.

See you, mate.

See you.