The Ten Thousand Things

Sam (2): Hello and welcome
to the 10, 000 things.

My name is Sam Ellis.

I'm Joe Loh.

Today we begin an epic
dive into the Tao Te Ching.

Tao Te Ching.

Isn't that spelt with a T?

It is spelt with a T.

I have it on some authority
that we say Tao instead of Tao.

Oh.

Tao, but you know.

Right.

Whatever.

Throughout the whole thing.

Yeah.

Okay.

You may know it as the Tao, you may
know it as the Tao, you may know

it as the Tao, yeah, yeah, you may
know it as the Tao, you know what,

I don't think the Tao would mind,

Joe: yeah, okay, what you call it.

Yeah, we're going to do an epic 25
part series of verses from the Tao

Te Ching, it's really taking the
10, 000 things in a new direction.

Sam (2): That's right, because
this poem really, well it's a

poem, it's a work of philosophy,
some say it's a religious text.

I think it sort of has been one of
the things lurking in the background

of this whole show, really.

And I think it casts a lot of light on
things we've talked about in general,

and You know, I've been getting into,
like, Jung and The Shadow for the last

few years, I think this text is kind
of fairly originary for that stuff.

Joe: Okay, well, I'm gonna be like a,
a pupil, I think, Sam, because this

is your, your baby, and I have come
across it, uh, in my travels, and I

have read it a couple of times and
loved it, so I'm happy to get into it.

I did see a quote the other day, something
like, with your mind know 10, 000

things, with your heart feel one reality.

And that seems a bit

Sam (2): Dao.

Oh, yeah, very much.

It's about the many and the one, and
the apparent oppositeness of things.

So I

Joe: think it's bringing it back home
from the title of the show and Maybe

getting a bit weird and spiritual, because
we have been mostly on the material

plane for the last couple of years.

Sam (2): Yeah, that's true.

We've talked a lot about, you know,
wealth and class and psychology

and dating and all sorts of things.

Yeah.

Worldly things.

Joe: Yeah.

And you mentioned about reading this
out loud in a sangha type environment.

I really like the idea of a sangha
and I get a bit of a sangha experience

in my addiction recovery stuff.

Oh yeah.

But, uh, can you explain the
idea, the concept of a sangha?

Sam (2): Yeah, okay, well, so, yeah,
sangha like a, you know, a gathering and

like satsanga, like, it's a, a meeting
of the, a meeting of the wise or it's a

meeting, it's about the seeking of wisdom.

And it's about, sharing and reflecting and

Joe: so it's not but it's
like a spiritual group

Sam (2): yes yeah that's right
and you know so you might have a

satsang about the bhagavad so did you

Joe: have satsang in the Hare Krishna

Sam (2): yeah but there's a lot of times
a lot of the presentation sometimes it

was like a lot of it was like a lecture
format oh but you could still consider

it You know satsang because you are in
the company of the scriptures and so

that's sort of part of the idea of it.

But, uh, but such a meeting they may, you
may not center it on a particular text.

Uh, it might be just a meditation
on things in a general sense

and, but usually there is some
sort of text being discussed.

so, I think the analogy might
be Bible study or, yeah.

Joe: Well, in the spirit of
that, I think we should read it

out and just see how we respond.

Sam (2): Yeah, that's right, because we
could go on all day about this, you know,

it was published in the 4th century, uh,
it's attributed to a person who might

be real, Lao Tzu, who is considered, you
know, one of the great sages of history,

right up there with Buddha or Socrates or,
you know, such names, I've got at least

20 minutes of general remarks about the
text, but you know what, let's save that.

Let's get into it.

People are going to be
like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Give us a taste, mate.

Joe: Yeah, let's give them a taste, Sam.

Sam (2): Alright.

So, I'm referring to a website,
Taoistic, uh, which will be in the notes.

And this is a very handy resource.

There's a particular page which will
give you 72 translations of each verse.

So, on each page, There's a page for each
of the verses and there's 72 translations

of the same verse on that page, right?

This is very useful because we
are going to be talking about

this text in English But of course
it was written in characters.

It was not written in an alphabet It
was written in a series of pictures and

we'll post the pictures So if you count
them, it's sort of got this grid shape

to it and there's three characters at
the top and And then another 3, another

3, another 3, 6, then 6, and so on,
and then it goes back to a set of 4

characters down the bottom, so really
the translation of those, there's a lot

of room to move there, and people have
rendered it into very serious academic

sort of English, people have rendered
it into something much more playful,

people have sort of made it sound hip and
casual, people have made it sound very

mystical, other people have rendered it
as like something very plain and simple.

So, there's a lot of different, it can
put on a lot of clothes, this text, and I

think, so the one thing I'll say about my
relationship with it is that when I first

came across it, you know, I was interested
in Buddhism and Zen in particular.

I was not interested in Taoism, I was
interested in Zen, You know, I was sort of

into the kind of far out mystical side of
it and, you know, ancient eastern wisdom.

I was basically being a bit of an
orientalist to be, you know, not

looking down at it, but actually, you
know, Doing something almost as bad,

which is to put it on a pedestal and
treat it as alien and other and, you

Joe: know.

Well, that's like calling your podcast
from Melbourne the 10, 000 things.

Yeah.

There's Orientalism in that too.

Oh,

Sam (2): agreed.

No, a hundred percent.

That is definitely, definitely
something we should be mindful of.

Joe: I remember when I went to send it to
a friend in Ireland who knows me pretty

well and he said, Oh, yeah, I can't wait
to listen to your pseudo Buddhist musings.

Sam (2): Got ya.

Well, that's fair.

Well, at least he can't

Joe: wait.

Yeah, I don't think he ever listened.

But we've strayed from the
path of spirituality, Sam.

I had another friend who said Hey, look,
you guys have great, um, chemistry on

that show, but I am not into spirit,
spiritualism is what he said, which

I didn't even know was a word, and
so I'm not going to listen to it.

And then we've barely talked
about anything spiritual.

Sam (2): Well, I, I think that's
really, I think you're right, and

I think it's dreadfully, Pointless
and unfair to us, to just box it

like that, because I don't, I don't
ghettoise this text as Eastern wisdom.

I think it's more worldly
and universal than that.

I think it's a masterpiece.

I think it's a banger.

Joe: I don't know.

Yeah, when I read it, it
just went straight in.

But why don't you read some?

It didn't

Sam (2): strike you as far out woo woo.

It struck you as

Joe: No, just like it, it has
more common sense than I have.

Sam (2): Exactly.

Yes.

This is not a religious or spiritual text.

It is To me, it is a common
sense set of statements.

Okay, well that's a good place to start.

Let's

Joe: read some.

Sam (2): Okay, so this is the Addis
Steven Lombardo Stanley Translation 1993.

Tao called Tao is not Tao.

Names can name no lasting name.

Nameless, the origin of heaven and earth.

Naming, the mother of 10, 000 things.

Empty of desire, perceive mystery.

Filled with desire,
perceive manifestations.

These have the same source,
but different names.

Call them both deep, deep and deep
again deep, the gateway to all mystery.

What do you think of that rendering?

Joe: Yeah, so,

you name something and you give
birth to the ten thousand things.

Sam: Yep.

Sam (2): Yep.

Joe: Yep.

If you

Sam (2): put names on things, you
limit, you distort, you twist, whether

you're trying to be as honest and
plain as you can, it doesn't matter.

So language is a problem for humans.

Joe: Yeah.

It creates our reality.

Sam (2): And we could debate to
the, you know, what degree does

language determine reality, right?

See, we're already miles
away from spirituality.

These are really fundamental.

Problems in philosophy.

But

Joe: if you can step back to what he's
talking about, which is the nameless

flow of the present moment, before you
name anything, we can all sense that.

And he's calling that the Tao, right?

Yes.

Like we can all say, and that's
what I mean about common sense.

It's like, ah, yes, I
know what he's saying.

Yeah.

But the moment I try and
explain it, it's gone.

Sam (2): That's right.

And so you can't really
explain it directly.

I feel like what this text does
is it makes claims about the

nature of the universe itself.

But I think it also, what it, I think
what it does even better, and for me

what it really is, is a description
of the experience of consciousness.

So, for me, this is, you know,
it's a phenomenological text

and it's a work of philosophy.

Joe: Well, my spiritual journey has
been a journey from the past and

the future into the present moment.

Sam: The

Joe: power of

Sam (2): now, etc.

Joe: yeah, it was Ram Dass
in the 60s, Be Here Now.

So the, the, the sequence of events
for me was something like come

into addiction recovery circles.

Part of that is to meditate,
be given meditation CDs.

Like, that's how long ago
it was, like nine years ago.

How to meditate, CT.

That's, that's where my
spirituality was at nine years ago.

Then, discover Ram Dass.

Start listening, just
gobbling up Ram Dass talks.

Sam (2): He, he's very listenable.

Oh, he's He's so entertaining.

He's the OG podcaster, really.

Yeah, yeah,

Joe: but originally I
wasn't ready for Alan Watts.

It took me a couple
more years to be ready.

Sam (2): Yeah, Watts
is a different flavor.

That's where I started.

Joe: Yeah.

So then coming, eventually went to
Japan and got recommended to read the

So, Ram Dass book is Be Here Now, and
then I got recommended to read Eckhart

Tolle, The Power of Now, and a friend
of me who was always a couple of years

ahead of me on the path said, Ah, no,
but Eckhart Tolle's a creepy guy, you

wouldn't want to be like him, and he was
looking for more role models, but when

I read that book, it went straight in.

Tao Te Ching, 4th century BC.

I found that, I found maybe that
translation a bit more obscure

than the one I read the other day.

Oh, well, um, should we
hit up a different one

Sam (2): and see

Joe: if it feels obscure?

But how do you filter to
know what you're looking at?

Because I think we should line by line it.

Yeah, no,

Sam (2): we're definitely going
to line by line, but before

we do that, I would suggest.

I read a different translation
which I think has been put up here

deliberately right next to that
one because it's quite different.

Right.

Alchin and Douglas.

2002.

Who would follow the way
must go beyond words.

Joe: Hmm.

You

Sam (2): see, I'm digging
this more already.

It's quite different, isn't it?

Yeah.

That's what's so fun about these texts.

By the time you learn Chinese,
learn all the vibes of the different

characters, and then, you know, apply
your brain to translating it, which

is both a logical and a creative task.

There's a lot of choices.

You've got to make choices.

You can't pretend you're not
making choices when you translate.

Who would follow the way
must go beyond words.

Joe: Hmm.

Keep going.

Sam (2): So the previous translation,
they've tried to just stick more to just

the characters as they sit physically.

Yeah.

They've gone for shorter.

Joe: We need it to flow.

We need it to sing.

It sings, when I've read it, it sings.

Sam (2): Yeah.

Well that's right.

And that's why I said that the start,
that there are so many different

feels to the way it's translated.

Mm-hmm.

And that's, you know, deliberate choices.

So they've here, they've gone to.

A bit of trouble and, you know, a small
amount of risk to sort of paraphrase it.

Ah, yeah, hit me with the whole thing.

Who would follow the way
must go beyond words.

Who would know the world
must go beyond names.

Nameless all things begin.

Named all things are born.

Empty of intent one
may be filled with awe.

Full of intent one may
know what's manifest.

One source, different fonts.

Wonders both.

From wonder into wonder, existence opens.

So the word font there, not like
a typeface, but like a fountain,

a spring, a place, you know, yeah,
water comes out of the ground.

It's a metaphor for wisdom.

Joe: So Lao Tze, is that
how you say his name?

Lao Tze.

Lao Tze.

Yeah.

Is, uh He's diggin reality, man.

Sam (2): Yeah.

Joe: Like, he's really diggin it.

Yep.

Like, wonder.

Yeah.

Wonder of wonders.

Yes.

You know?

Yes.

Like, that's what hooked me into
this text at the start, is like,

this guy is having a good time.

Sam (2): They're not trying to
get far out, or nail it down,

they're like, going for the middle.

It's like, let's get as
real about real as we can.

So what's

Joe: the first line?

I don't know.

I don't know.

Sam (2): Who would follow the way,
capital W, yeah, must go beyond words.

Joe: Okay.

First question.

Are you drawn to follow a way?

Sam (2): Sure.

Yeah,

Joe: because I certainly am.

But I don't think I found my way yet.

Sam (2): Well, I think what
this part of what this text is

saying is don't look for the way.

There is only the way.

Don't look for the way for you.

There is only the way.

Joe: Yes, I'm already following it.

Yeah.

So sitting here right now in the present
moment is exactly where I'm meant to be.

Yeah.

Following the way.

Sam (2): Yes.

Joe: Well, that's good news.

Sam (2): I think it's very
comforting in that sense.

Now it's not saying, cool,
just take your foot off the

gas and just let it all happen.

But it is saying that too, , so
it all gets very paradoxical.

Like it tells you to do
nothing and it tells you to

do something and like it's Mm.

It it, it's sort of

Joe: actionless activity.

Sam (2): Mm.

It tells you to be fully aware of things.

It tells you to be mindless.

It tells you to it, it's
apparently all over the place.

But once you sit with it for long
enough, what I find happens is you're

just doing something ordinary or you
know, you're just experiencing life.

And then it comes to mind.

And you go, Oh, that's what
they were talking about.

Joe: Yeah.

So I've had that experience with the Xing
Xing Ming, which I sent to you during

the week, the third Chinese patriarch
of Zen, but they're very similar texts.

Yeah.

Sam (2): It's coming a
hundred years later or so.

Joe: So what's the next line?

Sam (2): Who would know the
world must go beyond names.

What do you think about that?

I think it's, It's going to make
being, say, an academic or, uh, or

to sort of carry out any sort of
occupation very difficult because

you need names for things, but
that's not what it's talking about.

It's saying if you really want to, yeah,
if you want to carry out a trade, you'll

need names for things, but if you want
to understand the world as it really

is and yourself as you really are.

And others, then you should be.

Yeah.

You should be trying not to put, it's
very labels on things as far as possibles.

Joe: It's very reductive.

It is.

Yeah.

To call you Sam.

It is.

Or me.

Joe.

Indeed.

And say, that's what,
and I do it with you.

I treat you as a, somewhat as an object.

I think that's part

Sam (2): of what it's warning us about.

Joe: Yeah.

Or even my hand to comb my hand, my hand.

Sam (2): It's divorcing it
from the rest of your body.

Joe: It's also not accurate to
the experience of having a hand.

There's a lot more going on there than
just some separated out object in space.

It's like, if I think about
it for long enough, the whole

concept of hand just sort

Sam (2): of dissolves.

Meaningless, that's right.

And it brings to mind, um, Like
I said, I think that this text

is the OG of a lot of things.

Like I think this text gives us a
lot of stuff way down the line over

the centuries and right up till now.

And there was a guy called Gregory
Bateson, a philosopher anthropologist

who linguist, who invented, sort of
pioneered this field of cybernetics,

which is not what you think it's about.

Cyborgs and computers.

No, no.

It's about information and the
human experience of information.

Natural and manufactured systems, right?

And so Bateson would talk about,
he would say things like it's not a

hand, it's a set of relationships.

Joe: Okay.

Sam (2): Between the thumb
and each other finger.

Between all the fingers and the
thumb when together, it's a fist.

What happens to your fist
when you open your hand?

What happens to your
lap when you stand up?

Sam: Hmm.

Sam (2): So the lap only exists
when you're sitting down.

Hmm.

the open hand, it's
open until it's a fist.

It's a fist until it's open.

And that these are like, sure,
these are handy names for things,

but it doesn't capture the true
essence of, you know, what it is.

And so Bateson is pointing to this idea.

Everything is a set of relationships.

Things aren't things, they're in relation.

Sam: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And this should be

Sam (2): familiar to anyone who's
looked into Buddhism and gone, oh,

well, yeah, everything's joined.

Joe: what the illusion
is, is the separate self.

Yes.

And, but it's persistent, it's
such a persistent illusion, I can't

even try and explain it to my kids.

No.

Like I do.

But.

Sam (2): It's something
that has to be experienced.

Joe: You're not ready to see through
the illusion of the separate self

until you are because you've been
told you're an object your whole life.

Sam (2): Yes.

And you've been objectified

Joe: in various ways.

And you've been named.

Yes.

Yes.

And then you've seen yourself in the
mirror and you've said, Oh, that's Joe.

And you know, like you've
created this persistent illusion.

Yes.

But what you're talking about is I'm
just in relation to the environment.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

And I'm in relation to the environment.

The environment expands the whole
of the earth and then the whole

of the universe and there is no
separation in that, in any of it.

Sam (2): So, where do you begin and where
do you end and et cetera, et cetera.

Joe: Yeah, there, there, yeah,
it's, it's hard to talk about,

but it's what comes to mind.

With that line from that poem.

Sam (2): Oh, that's right.

And, you know, it's like, who would
know the world must go beyond names.

It's like, look, this brings to
mind countless anecdotes, right?

And so, you know, the Zen tradition
is, is, is fond of anecdotes, uh, as

ways to kind of like trigger something.

Koans.

Koans, right?

They're little stories, they're
little problems, little riddles.

And, uh, You know, everyday life itself
generates these things and we, we,

we should be on the lookout for them.

Yes.

And sort of one of the things the
text is trying to get us to do,

I think, is to notice absurdity.

Sam: Yeah.

And

Sam (2): laugh at it.

And this, this is just a very
helpful thing on the face of it.

It helps us to not get
sucked in by things as much.

It helps us to kind of just shake
off something that could have been

stressful and just, you Accept it.

And it helps us get over
ourselves, you know, and, you

know, pull the head out of the ass.

But also I think it's trying to
get us to experience, reality and

existence more directly and not to
constantly mediate through words.

And so for example, I've been
incredibly guilty of that.

Yeah.

More than most people, I think.

Oh, totally.

My brain just, yeah.

Constantly naming things.

And assigning value to them.

It's, it's tiring

Joe: and treating other people.

This is one thing I've been
guilty of is treating other

people of, as, Oh, how have your

Sam (2): ego?

Joe: Well, how are they useful to me?

Sam (2): Well, that's right.

Joe: You know, or are
they not useful to me?

Yes.

Also there's an object, there's a
person of turn them into an object in

my mind and now I'm categorizing them as

Sam (2): I find them beautiful or I
don't, and their value is according.

Yeah, this is terrible stuff and it's no
way to live and it's no way to we wouldn't

want to be treated in such a way But

Joe: that's where like women over a
certain age say they suddenly start to

feel invisible That's right, or they

Sam (2): cease to be even a thing anymore.

They cease to be an object of desire
Therefore they cease to be an object.

Yeah, that is the experience

Joe: or Ali Ali used to talk
about, he used to be on this show,

he used to talk about, by the

Sam (2): way, older
ladies, not unattractive.

Who said that?

Anyway, carry on Joe.

Joe: She talked about being
overweight and then having a

completely different experience of
reality once she lost the weight.

And then she said, and this was
interesting, and I just never

trusted people after that because
they would just completely

ignore me when I was overweight.

Sam (2): It's like, it's like.

It's like when Robert Crumb said
on the documentary, yeah, they

just like me because I'm famous.

You know, like I couldn't
get anyone to look at me, but

that'll change when I got famous.

I remember that.

Yeah.

And it was like, it's such a brutal
doco and like a very tortured

man, but like, he really pointed
to some hard truths in there.

And he was capable of
acknowledging to himself.

Yeah, there were some benefits to
fame, but it basically, there was

no point in having any sort of ego
about it, because it was like, oh,

no, no, they're just interested
in a thing that isn't actually me.

But this text,

Joe: this text is before Christ.

Sam (2): Yes.

Yeah.

Joe: And then Christ, then Christianity
comes along, or it's probably

in the Hebrew Bible, isn't it?

But God gave names to all the animals.

Yeah.

I mean, it's a Bob Dylan song.

God gave names to all the
animals in the beginning.

The

Sam (2): Word Makes Flesh.

Joe: Yeah, so that's completely
different to what, what did it say?

You have to, if you want to go beyond Who
would know the world must go beyond names?

Oh, I promised you an anecdote before.

Sam (2): Okay.

Joe: Well, that's a very
different orientation towards

naming things though, isn't it?

Like this, this guy's
saying it's a hindrance.

Yes.

Whereas Christianity is saying, Oh no,
everything's named and numbered and Yeah.

Sam (2): That's right.

And, uh, some would say that it, one
of the, one of the most foundational

critiques of Christianity is that it, it
placed an undue emphasis on the word in

general and the Logos, the Logos and the

Joe: Logos appeals to me though.

Sam (2): Sure.

But actually Logos is a
bigger concept than just word.

Of course it, I mean, it's rendered
as wisdom or, you know, but like.

And there are some little bits and
pieces, like in John, for example, that

are a little bit more Tao, I think.

And there's some imagery in bits
and pieces, especially when they're

talking about the Old Testament.

In the New Testament, there's
some freaky stuff going on there.

I was

Joe: reading my Sermon on the Mount book.

The other day, which we talked
about on the show back in 2023.

Sam (2): Sermon on the Mount almost
has some Dow moments where like,

you know, Jesus says, like, look
at the lilies of the field, you

know, quite a koan what he's doing.

Yeah, that's right.

It's a real head scratcher.

Yeah.

Anyway, go on.

Yeah.

Sorry.

I got you off track.

Joe: I can't.

I mean, that was the first book I ever
read about Jesus and it was, I said it

at the time, but it really spun me out.

Like I was having this strong
experience and then I picked it up

yesterday and I started reading the
passages I'd saved and I thought,

I actually can't go down this path.

Yeah.

Like I've, I don't want to join an
organized religion, and I happen

to have been reading about how Bob
Dylan was physically visited by Jesus

Christ in a hotel room in Tucson.

Sam (2): So did he have a
quite a sudden conversion?

Yeah, yeah.

Joe: Like he, someone, he was touring.

Sam (2): Like St.

Paul.

Yeah.

Joe: Someone threw a silver cross
up on the stage and at the end of

the show, Bob Dylan was Bob Dylan
picked it up and then he carried

it around with him for a few days.

He didn't really know why.

And then in this hotel room in Tucson,
Arizona, a physical presence entered

the room and he knew it to be Jesus
and touched him on the shoulder while

he was looking at this silver cross.

Sam (2): But there was no one there.

But Well, Jesus was there.

There.

Yeah.

Joe: Well, am I willing to believe
that Jesus came to earth and

touched Bob Dylan on the shoulder?

Yeah, probably.

I'm like, who else would
he touch on the shoulder?

Sam (2): Well, I'm willing to believe
that this is what he experienced.

This is what he experienced.

Joe: And then he became a, but the
thing is then he became a board again.

Christian.

Yeah.

Did one good and two bad albums.

Yeah.

And I'm like, I can't
go into my bad album.

Phase like this what Jesus said in the
Sermon on the Mount is hitting me so

deeply Yeah, that um, there's something
like do not let your heart be frightened.

Yeah, neither.

Let it be afraid I'm yeah murdering that
text, but it speaks to me, you know Yeah,

Sam (2): there's some wonderful
passages like Jesus is telling

Joe: me to chill the fuck out.

Everything's under control

Sam (2): Yeah, and and the Sermon
on the Mount like it's been I think

widely praised and enjoyed but also
misunderstood a lot of it and I'm

certainly no expert but that it's it
seems that I think maybe the people don't

quite grasp how radical this person was
yeah well that's where he says the meek

Joe: will shall inherit the earth and
blessed are the peacemakers and but also

Sam (2): hey quit with
all the going after wealth

Joe: yeah

Sam (2): stop stop trying to ego
actualize yourself stop trying

to be big peoples just Stop.

Anyway, we've got off on a Jesus
sidetrack, do you want to read

another line from the text?

Well, you know, I think it does relate,
because one of his disciples, well,

not quite direct disciple, but Paul,
he goes on to, you know, write a ton of

letters, which forms a huge portion of
the Old Testament, as you'd be aware.

And, you know, Corinthians, Romans,
uh, uh, Galatians, et cetera.

There's a hundred, like there's a
dozen, but like, there's some really

cool stuff in there I've mentioned on
this show before, such as when he says,

nor Gentile, neither slave nor
free person, neither man nor woman.

You are all one.

Yes.

In Jesus.

So basically if you've accepted the grace
or you've let Jesus into you or you're

into it, you know, that it's a temple.

It's a, it's a church.

The church is everywhere now.

It's not a place and it's in
your homes and in your hearts.

And now you are all equal and you are no
longer these things, these names, right?

See, the names have power.

Think about the first person who, you
know, the first European who decided to

say, these people in Africa, uh, here
in West Africa, they're not enslaved.

They are slaves and it implies that
they are and always were and always

will be and just that very word.

Oh yeah, language is powerful.

It's incredibly powerful.

And so when we, if we call someone a
slave, we are damning them to that fate.

Joe: Yeah.

Sam (2): Even if you might think, no,
no, it was just an objective description.

No, it's not.

That person was placed into bondage by

Joe: someone else.

What Jesus was saying to Paul back
then, or whatever, it's why, it might

sound trite, and I've said it before
about, I went from Ram Dass to Eckhart

Tolle, and then I went into the present
moment, but what Jesus is saying is,

spirituality, heaven is here on earth.

And it's in the present moment.

And the present moment, you've got
to realise this, it's infinite.

Time is an illusion.

It's a social construct.

We use it to organize, you know, you're at
some point, your wife will come out here

and tell us we've got to stop talking shit
and you'll have to go and cook dinner.

That's time, you know, and
you can see why we resent it.

Sam (2): Time kicks our ass all the time.

Yeah,

Joe: but it's not real.

It's just a social construct.

And whether it's Christianity, Buddhism,
whatever, you're only ever going

to find spirituality, a spiritual
experience in the present moment.

Yeah.

Spiritual teachers were all trying
to say that it's already here.

Yeah.

Now, Christianity goes on to say
there's a, there's a, there's Life

after death in a heaven somewhere
else, and that's why I'll probably

never sign up to Christianity, right?

And like I said, I'm actually aware,
I just don't think And predestination

and all that, that's like, eeeh.

I just don't think me personally
can go down the Jesus route

safely with my bipolar disorder.

Like, it's one thing to

Sam (2): I can see you in a
loincloth on the streets of

Jerusalem with your arms in the air.

Joe: I don't, you know, and the
cool thing about Buddhism is they're

not really looking for recruits.

No.

Like they don't, you can be drawn to
Buddhism and just keep being drawn to it.

They don't actually care
whether you sign up or not.

Yeah.

Like unlike the Christians
who'd love to have you on board.

Sam (2): Well, I think, I think with
Christianity, if you're doing it

right, there's no pressure, you know,
like, and that's what I would kind of

say the Taoist, this text is pointing
us to, that There is just the way.

And that you could do the way
in a lot of different ways,

but it's still just the way.

You see what I mean?

And that you haven't actually
converted anybody, under pressure.

That's not a real thing.

You know?

Like, it needs to be in the heart, right?

Okay, what's the next line?

We'll just keep going until you
have to get it cooked, you know?

This one's a little more challenging.

Nameless, all things begin,
named all things are born.

Now, if we refer to the previous
translation It said, named 10, 000 things.

Yeah, well, in the earlier, so the
previous translation we read, nameless,

colon, the origin of heaven and earth.

Naming, colon, the
mother of 10, 000 things.

See, I prefer that rendering.

Joe: Yeah.

So, say it again in that one.

Sam (2): Okay.

Nameless, the origin of heaven and earth.

Naming, the mother of 10, 000 things.

This

Joe: is great.

This is, this is great.

This is why I love the 10, 000 things.

This is why I proposed it
as the name of this show.

Yeah, the 10, 000 things
are a distraction, man.

Sam (2): Yeah

Joe: They're a fucking distraction.

Sam (2): Yeah, it's it's a fracturing

Joe: It's also how we're gonna spend 99.

9 percent of our life is distracted by
the 10, 000 things Totally and most people

will never realize it and then they'll
just die But it's not the main game,

Sam (2): you know, you know what I
think People have these, the kind of

stuff this text is talking about, I
think most people do experience this

at some point, whether they have names
for it or not, and they have this,

these wordless moments of wow, and

Joe: Yes, I agree.

Sam (2): Or they just totally
surrendered to a task, you

know, the dishes or whatever.

Yes.

And they just forget to be thinking
about it, you know, and so, but

whether they even, you know, Reflect
on that experience afterwards.

Well, I guess it doesn't matter.

Yes, I

Joe: would say that.

If you go into a flow state,
the 10, 000 things drop away.

They disappear.

You were describing to me the other
night when you played a keyboard

concert and 40 people were in the
room and they listened to you.

Somewhere in there, you probably
just stopped thinking about

Sam (2): everything else.

Well, it's a great example.

When I go in there, when I went in
there, I was full of anxiety and

ego and, All the things that could,
or should, or might happen, right?

And, I knew that I just
had to suffer through that.

And I just, what I really
needed to do was just to begin.

And, once I began, I could
find my way out of that.

And, I could get to the other
place, or, well, perhaps the

Tao would say, the only place.

Joe: And you're there all the time.

I'll let that stop me from beginning.

Sam (2): It, that's, it'll do that to you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yes, indeed.

That's what this text is trying to
do, I think, is that kind of stuff.

It's trying to get us unstuck.

we get wrapped around the axle.

You know?

But it's not

Joe: saying get stuck.

Be angry at the 10, 000 things.

It's just saying be aware.

This is my interpretation.

I think you're right.

Be aware that you've been distracted.

Sam (2): Yes, and don't
hate yourself for it.

Don't hate yourself.

Joe: And what you've been, yeah, I'm
gonna repeat myself a lot, but yeah,

what you've been distracted from is the
incredible flow of the present moment.

Yeah, like which is whole,
it's perfect in its own way.

Yeah.

There's no problem in the present
moment, you know, that's right.

But the 10, 000 things are,
yeah, once you're waiting for

it, they're waiting for you.

Sam (2): Or rather your mind creates them.

Names create them.

Um, they're necessary to some degree.

try not to live your whole life there
and just recognize that it's, it's sort

of a fractal manifestation of, it's
like the one, the beam of light that

gets put into the prism and then it's a
spray of seven colors in there, Joe, is

there, there's 10, 000, there's infinite.

And you know, it's like all those
colors are there to be sure.

But they're not.

There's just white.

Light.

But also, it's these other
things at the same time.

Like, it's one and both, and
that's not a contradiction.

Joe: Yeah.

It's really good news.

What reality really is,
is really good news.

Sam (2): Yeah.

I think it offers us a tremendous
amount of hope and practical tools.

Yeah.

It was

Joe: always okay.

Sam (2): Yeah.

Joe: And it always will be on the
level that it's talking about.

What is it before heaven and Earth?

Sam (2): Yeah.

Well, that's right.

So in the previous translation,
you know, the second one, nameless.

All things begin named,
named All Things Are Born.

Mm-hmm.

That's confusing.

Oh, that is confusing.

Well, here, move on to the
next line before we do Yeah.

The Archie.

sorry, the BAM translation, 1958.

I think this one's worth touching
on because, uh, I think it tries

to explain things a little.

Nature can never be completely
described, for such a description of

nature would have to duplicate nature.

To make a one to one map of the
world, you've made the world, right?

No name can fully express
what it represents.

It is nature itself, and not any
part, or name, or description.

abstracted from nature, which is the
ultimate source of all that happens.

All that comes and goes,
begins and ends, is and is not.

But to describe nature as, quote,
the ultimate source of all, quote,

is still only a description.

It's funny.

This text, it's a banger.

And such a description
is not nature itself.

Yes.

And Gregory Bateson said these words.

Joe, I mentioned him before, but
he said this, traveler, do not

mistake the map for the territory.

Joe: The

Sam (2): map is not the same
as the territory, right?

Joe: Yeah.

Sam (2): If nature is So, now we get to
the part we're trying to grapple with now.

If nature is inexpressible, he who
desires to know nature as it is in itself

will not try to express it in words.

That's the line we were on before.

Now, to try to express the
inexpressible leads one to make

distinctions that are unreal.

And we see this in politics
all the time, don't we?

You know, the distinction between
immigrants and citizens, illegal

immigrants, legal immigrants, Man,
woman, black, white, these are

distinctions that are on some level
real and on some other level not real.

Yes.

Although the existence of
nature and a description of that

existence are two different things.

Yes.

Yet they are also the same.

For both are ways of existing.

That is a description of existence.

Must have its own existence which
is different from the existence

of that which it describes and
so again We have to recognize an

existence which cannot be described

Joe: all of it is really
if you can absorb it.

It's telling you to just shut the fuck up

Sam (2): Yeah, it's it's this guy's
wrapping us in like a Logical loop.

Yeah, it's gone.

See the snakes eat snake eating its tail.

Don't worry

Joe: in the end, you may be
just dumbfounded and you go back

to just being a human animal.

Sam (2): Well, when we're
in awe, we look stupid.

What's the, what is the face of awe?

The mouth is open.

The eyes are wide.

Yeah.

The jaw is slack.

That is the face of innocence,
but also of stupidity, but

also of wonder and amazement.

It's all one thing.

And so, I guess they're saying
it would pay to not be so clever.

It would pay to be a little
more simple, a little more dumb.

And the word simple itself is a vague
insult as a way of calling someone dumb.

Joe: Yeah, it's kind of like
passages kind of just saying

stop trying to figure it all out.

Sam (2): Yeah.

Joe: It reminds me of being on
LSD, like a strong It's Brad

Sam (2): Pitt in, in, in Fight Club,
telling Edward Norton to just let

Joe: go!

Yeah.

And it's like that moment of ego death
on like an LSD trip, isn't it, where

you're trying to piece all the pieces
together, and then suddenly you just stop.

And you start laughing and then
the glory explodes in your mind

and the ego drops away and you
see it all and it all makes sense.

Sam (2): That's right and you know I
promised you an anecdote earlier and

it you know it's kind of like a more
mundane version of that one where you

know Sam's watching a show and he's
enjoying the show and so is the other

people in the room and then you know
I decide to comment on my enjoyment.

Um, and in so doing, I dispel the
suspension of disbelief and I, I, the, the

very process of naming the experience of
enjoying something takes you out of it and

you know, I'm an English major for God's
sake and we were trained to deconstruct

and analyze texts and you know, was
something I already did compulsively.

poring over books and, you know,
turning the words over and over and

around and around in my mind and, you
know, fetishizing them as objects.

so I've certainly got a great
love or unhealthy obsession with

language Or maybe I'm its servant.

But I think I've thought over the years
that I was its master, that it was

serving me, but yeah, I don't think so.

And better if I'm not
thinking that's a funny joke.

Yeah,

Joe: if you're saying, if you're saying
LOL and you're not actually laughing out

loud, you've crossed some kind of line.

Sam (2): Well, that's true.

Although now that word is abstracted and
it signals something else again, but like,

depending on context, but, and once again,
Everyone knows that the relationship

is different on text, it's different
on phone, and it's different in person.

Here's something I'll throw at you though.

That's what, that's what
this is talking about.

Joe: Because somewhere in these five
translations we've just read or whatever.

Yeah.

is a line, and Jesus said it
too, you said, that all is one.

Tell me this though, is the fact
that all is one and the separate

self is an illusion Well, St.

Sam (2): Paul was saying you're all one.

Is that

Joe: why I can sit and watch
a movie character and believe

that I am that person?

Yeah.

Or, in my case, more likely, watch a
sporting contest and identify myself with

the person with the ball or the bat or the
tennis racket or, I start to, I, capital

I dissolves, and I start to become, I
think that's why I like live sports so

much, because I'm in the present moment.

We're in some other part of the world
quite often and I'm connected with

all the people playing the sport
and all the fans in the stadium and

I feel this strong connection and
It's like a sense of relief too.

And I think it's because the art
the separate self is dissolving

into that Live sporting contests,
but the fact that it's live is so

important, because I know I'm watching
it in the instant that it happens.

Experiencing it

Sam (2): as a replay, or highlights,
or it's completely different.

I

Joe: guess that's why people like live
theatre over the cinema, isn't it?

Whereas I'm a cinema,
or was, a cinema guy.

Sam (2): Although cinema's interesting,
I mean, I think the phenomenology of

what we're, the stuff we're talking
about here, I mean, this gets us into,

Modernist theory of art and postmodern
theory of culture and you know the

fractured consciousness of the, that we
live in now with media stacked upon media.

Baudrillard, you know, the evil demon
of images, the procession of simulacra.

And the theater has this, in its
unreality, has this greater reality

to it because they're literally in the
same room occupying the same space.

And that is in an age of, you know,
incredible virtual reality, there is

something incredibly radical and disarming
about people in a room pretending.

It's like radical stuff, but it's only
now, it's perhaps in a sense, only

radical when there was an alternative.

And there's something about cinema,
which this is the reason why so many

academics talk about it at great length,
that it It has this, it has this profound

effect that on people, and I think
on some it has an even deeper effect.

And you're one of those people, you
know, like a super smeller, right?

You can detect all these little things.

In your case, it's like, you're
not getting there through analysis.

You're getting there through
complete and utter surrender.

to it as a reality.

So the cinema can do that for you.

The live theater can do that for, for
you, possibly the same person, but live

sport, I think has been under theorized.

And, uh, there's a bunch of Zizek,
there's one or two Zizek scholars

that come to mind, where they talk
about live sport in a mind blowing way

that really got me re evaluating it.

And they kind of talk about how
it's one of sort of the last.

sort of rituals in a secular age
and that even though it's this

highly mediated experience, right?

You've got a thousand cameras and all
this technology to make it all happen.

But for you, you don't experience
it as a mediated experience.

You go directly into it, which
is like matrix type stuff.

Like this is, this is amazing technology.

Joe: I just watched the Australian Open
Tennis for two weeks, and basically with

the large flat screen TV, the tennis
court just feels like it's almost there.

Yeah, it fills that TV, it's a perfect
shape for it, and then you just, I

think you identify with whichever
player you're wanting to win.

Yes.

And you get relief from self.

Yes.

And my addiction recovery is
about freedom from the, what's

referred to as the bondage of self.

Yeah.

Self is seen as the problem.

Too much self, and I will
pick up a drink again.

You know?

Yes.

Yes.

It's hard to talk about.

It's a bit hard to define by self, but you
have some sense of what I'm talking about.

Oh no,

Sam (2): I know exactly
what you're talking about.

And uh, some would call it ego.

Joe: Basically, I've got to find someone
else and put them ahead of my own self.

Sam (2): High power.

Which is

Joe: easy when I have my kids.

Sam (2): Yeah, well, that's right.

Joe: Sometimes easy at work when I'm
working with mental health clients.

Very hard most of the rest of
the time, because I have no

inclination to make someone else
more important than me, you know?

Sam (2): Yes, yeah, I see what you mean.

But if I do, that's

Joe: the path that leads me to spiritual
relief and not having to pick up a

drink and start destroying myself again.

Exactly right.

Sam (2): Something like that.

I probably haven't done it justice,
but No, no, I'm going to try and add,

I'm going to try to illustrate it.

You know, I've had my, uh, experiences
with alcohol, spent a lot of time

drinking, long periods, binging,
long periods just with a steady

consumption kind of thing, all
these different patterns, right?

the words that come to mind,
you know, battling it, right?

And there were times when it
was like, I'm the, I'm the

greatest guy in the world, right?

I'm the smartest, the most charming, I
cannot put a foot wrong, I can go out and

have a massive night, it'll all just work
out, This kind of childish or egotistical

arrogance, I mean, I don't know, call
it what you want, but there's, there's

some sort of like too much self, right?

And then, um, What's the
other kind of drinking?

You want to obliterate the self.

Joe: Yes.

Sam (2): You want to desperately
want to get away from this.

He's, this is the worst guy in the world.

Everything he touches turns to shit.

I don't want to be him.

I don't want to be in him, but I can't get
out of him, I'm going to try and, uh, find

answers in here or rather just forget that
it's a problem for a little while, but the

problems just come back worse and worse.

And so You know, you can't turn
yourself into the glorious thing

and you can't escape yourself
through worthlessness and total self

abnegation and self destruction.

That doesn't get you there either.

You're only left with one
fucking option, right?

You've just got to be in
yourself and suck it up.

Too bad.

Here's where you are.

Yeah,

Joe: but you've got to, in my case and
what I was taught, is you've got to

basically do esteemable, if you want self
esteem, you've got to do esteemable acts.

Sam (2): 100%.

You can't go around demanding respect.

You can't

Joe: trick yourself,
because you know what I

Sam (2): for all my faults You
know what a piece of shit you are.

It doesn't matter how much
game you've got, you know.

Joe: For all my faults, I know what I
Clearly now, nine years of sobriety,

I know what I have and haven't done.

At least for the last nine years.

And sometimes that feels quite burdensome
and bad, what I have and haven't done.

But now it's like, okay,
I've made my peace.

I've done this, I haven't done that.

And I want to just get on with
the rest of my life, but I have

to be wary of the bondage of self.

Sam (2): No, I agree entirely.

And this is what I'm saying.

Like I always found it
much easier to not drink.

Or, not drink excessively if I was
focused on things that needed doing, not

ego projections, you know, things want,
desires of the mind are infinite, right?

That's here in the Tao Te Ching.

The desires of the flesh are limited.

There's only so much food you can eat.

There's only so much
sleep you need, right?

There's only, uh, I need a walk.

Okay, I'm good after 40
minutes or whatever, right?

I don't need to walk infinitely.

I don't need to eat infinitely, right?

Hmm.

Booze has this kind of denialistic
sort of infinite quality to it

and you never get there, right?

But with food you get there and so often
what's driving this overconsumption

of whatever it is Games, screens,
booze, whatever things you're going

after there You're either trying
to escape that, the frustration of

what you have and don't have, or
you're trying to manifest it somehow.

Freud called it the death drive, right?

The repetition, and the doing
what we don't want to do, and

the not doing what we want to do.

And,

when Tao, it really helped me out a lot.

The desires of the mind are
infinite and unquenchable.

You can constantly dream up trips
abroad, holiday homes, all the

people you could be with, travel to
distant planets, writing the great

Australian novel, whatever it is, see?

All the things I've just named there
could not be achieved in a hundred

lifetimes, let alone the other 10,
000 things I fantasized about, right?

But none of which is needful, right?

So what gets you out of that trap?

Service to others.

Joe: Anyway, should we read one
more stanza and then wrap it up?

Sam (2): Well, this actually
relates to what we were just saying.

So, that first translation,
Addis Steven, etc.,

says, Empty of desire, perceive mystery.

Filled with desire,
perceive manifestations.

And in the next one, Olchen, empty of
intent one may be filled with awe, full

of intent one may know what's manifest.

Hmm, it's a little obscure.

Yeah.

I think I get that.

Sanderson Beck says this, whoever is
desireless sees the essence of life.

Whoever desires sees its manifestations.

Joe: Yes, I get it.

Mm.

desire.

Mm-hmm . Is just being
awareness in the present moment.

Yeah.

I think desire is a 10,000 things again.

Yes.

That's all the things you
were just talking about.

Yes.

All the things you might

Sam (2): think you want.

Yes.

Projection and fantasy, infinitely
extending throughout an imaginary

universe contained in your mind.

Or maybe as some say, every time you
fantasize, you create an alternate

reality that exists somewhere else.

I mean, who knows?

But the point is, it
ain't here and now, is it?

Joe: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sam (2): It's not an itch you can scratch.

Joe: Yeah.

Desirelessness.

I like that as a, as a, as an
ideal, but then I guess that's a

desire to desire desirelessness.

That's what the Tao Te Ching would say.

Sam (2): Exactly right.

So, well, here's the next line.

It goes right with it, of course.

the first translation, right?

Empty of desire, perceive mystery.

Filled with desire,
perceive manifestations.

Right?

But here's the punchline.

These have the same source,
but different names.

And then the next one, the
Sanderson Beck one is good.

Whoever desires sees its manifestations.

These two are the same, but what
is produced has different names.

They both may be called
the cosmic mystery.

From the cosmic to the mystical is
the door to the essence of all life.

Letda gets us to the end of verse one.

Joe: From the cosmic to the mystical,
think it finally broke my brain.

Sam (2): Yeah, I think this one did, and
I think it's the mention of the mystical

I don't like, but right up till then this,
that, Sanderson Beck was doing alright.

So let's return to our original.

These have the same source
but different names.

Call them both deep.

Deep and deep again deep.

The gateway to all mystery.

So he's just like really
sticking to the one theme there.

He's like, this verse isn't
saying six different things.

It's just saying one thing.

Don't be trying to understand
it by calling it things.

There are reasons to call things,
things, but don't be thinking

that gets you to understanding.

you know, I think

Joe: for me, you know, it points back
to pure awareness, which is actually

what we are anyway, just trapped in
this illusion of a skin bag and a

body and all the stuff we're just
going to drop and still be awareness.

Sam (2): That's right.

And, you know, experiencing
this, often torturous.

thing of being simultaneously aware and
being aware of being aware and being stuck

with your own damn stale thoughts all the
time and uh stuck with desires of the mind

and the body and Resenting our obligations
and resenting time itself and you know all

of this and uh it's offering us a way out
you know and or the way in or whatever you

want to call it it's unfathomable, right?

You can't get to the bottom of it.

I like that.

Joe: Well, yeah, I think that's
a good place to leave it, Sam.

Yeah.

But we can come back again either next
week or we can get some listener feedback.

Do you want us to continue the Tao Te
Ching or move on to something else?

Yeah,

Sam (2): look, whether you endorse
it or not, we'll probably continue,

but it would be, you know, something,
something, some encouragement.

Well, I've really

Joe: got you going with
this 25 part series idea.

I

Sam (2): hate to tell you, man,
like, my passion for this is

You've been waiting for someone

Joe: to say, let's do a 25 part series.

Sam (2): Well I thought about it at first.

I was like A couple of years ago I
was, you know, getting back into what

I was reading parallel translations.

I was just really loving all
the different readings of it.

Yeah.

And I was like, what the heck?

Joe: But

Sam (2): you need me, man.

I wanna read out all 72
translations of each host.

You need me, I'm

Joe: the one who actually
gets you focused.

Sam (2): Yeah.

No, exactly right.

You know, the, the
active and the quiescent.

Yeah.

They're not different.

They're the same.

They come from the same
source, different ways.

They come out and they
have to be combined.

Right.

Yeah.

So, 'cause we haven't even
gotten into how the Dow talks

about, you know, dark and light.

Positive, negative, all that stuff.

But

Joe: Well, that'll be
the next verse, right?

Sam (2): It's, we're about to
start breaking the atom, right?

It's, it's like, it's given us the
universe and then it's gonna split the

atom and it's gonna show you how, it's
gonna show you how the 10,000 things

come out of the one thing through the
mind, and it's mind blowing stuff.

Joe: Alright, well let's
come back to it, Sam.

Sam (2): Yeah.

It's a good vibe, it's a general fuck
Defyno bro, it's a hey just enjoy it,

it's got all of that in it and more.

Yeah.

Come back for verse two.

Yeah.

Well that was just another one of the

Joe: That was another one
of the 10, 000 things.

And we talked about the 10, 000 things
a lot and yeah, 25 part series in 2025.

I hope people are excited.

I'm pumped, mate.

Sam (2): I'm pumped as.

All right.

See you,