The Ten Thousand Things

Hello and welcome to the 10,000 things.

My name is Sam Ellis.

I'm Joe Low.

And today we've heard from Liv
about a good topic for us, a

very US topic, reactivity being
reactive, two, commonly known as

being triggered unquote these days.

Mm.

There's a lot in that.

Firstly, shout out to Liv
who's in hospital, having

just had her appendix out.

Oh, I didn't know that.

Yeah, so you know when this
finally reaches there is she'll

be appendix free appendectomy.

Yeah.

So a big couple of days for Liv.

I imagine she was fairly reactive
to the pain in her stomach.

Um, but we're not probably talking
about that kind of reactivity are we?

So just read it through a bit more slowly.

Okay.

Reactivity being reactive.

Too commonly known as
being triggered these days.

Okay.

So I feel like the triggered thing
was something from the naughties.

Was it?

I think it started coming in, uh,
I feel like it got, it was, it

was really strong in the, in the
discourse in the teens, I would say.

Yeah.

So a bit of peaked a while ago.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

You don't hear that many people
talking about being triggered anymore.

We don't get trigger warnings as much.

I feel like trigger
warnings really peaked.

Uh, sometime around 20, 20
A little bit before then.

Yeah.

It could have been like, I feel
like Joe Rogan did a colony special.

Called Triggered, which, you know,
like tapped into vaguely right

wing people being annoyed by left
wing people feeling triggered.

Oh yeah.

People, people being annoyed
about people being triggered.

Yes.

Was a huge part of the discourse.

Yes.

That somehow you were infringing
on other people's psychological.

Comfort and, and, and their sort of
freedom of expression by demanding that,

you know, don't use this word unless you
wanna upset people and you know, yeah.

Don't say things this sort of way and
don't talk about this sort of topic.

There was a feeling that maybe this was,
censorious, censorious or that that.

Or the, the more charitable reading
that okay, even if this is well

intentioned, it might be going too
far and we might be limiting our

ability to be honest about things.

Yeah.

Uh, and so that's like the
fairer version of the critique.

I was never that on board with the,
obviously with the right wing version

of it, which is just suck it up.

Yeah.

Everyone's gone soft, everyone's gone.

Soft, rubber a brick on it.

Stop being such a souk.

if I wanna use horrible racial
and misogynistic slur and

homophobic slurs, what's it to you?

Uh, it's only words,
princess, that kind of stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm a little bit more like that, I guess.

Mm-hmm.

A little bit.

Probably more than you.

but when I look, when I.

First saw there was trigger
warnings before a mm-hmm.

Movie or a show or whatever.

I wasn't immediately kind
of like, this is bullshit.

Yeah.

I was like, fair enough.

Like someone's had some trauma.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And trauma was another word
that came in and got really

big at the same time, I think.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I feel like trauma's come
a, uh, maybe a little bit.

Uh, I think it's peaked a
little bit after, but obviously

they're related concepts.

Um, I, I feel like trauma has stuck
around and become very legitimate and

very fleshed out, whereas the trigger,
certainly something like a trigger

warning has really just gone away.

Yeah, absolutely.

It, you really only see it.

I think these days when it is like
highly justified, all that lawyers

have basically required it to be
there, which is another aspect.

Yeah.

so that's that part of what
Liv's asked us to talk about.

But in terms of being reactive, I mean, so
this being reactive as in being offended.

Mm-hmm.

But the part of being reactive that I
relate to is being afraid of things.

Yeah, that's right.

And so I think.

Well back to the right wing critique.

I do.

I just wanna say a little
bit more about that.

What was missing from that critique?

Well, I think what w the assumption
with it was people were choosing to be

upset by things and that they were doing
that in order to exert control over

what others can or should say or do.

now.

Maybe there were people who were
hamming it up a bit and were prof being,

going around, being professionally
triggered, you know, maybe one or two.

But speaking from personal experience
that back when I had, you know, really,

really chronic severe anxiety and panic
attacks, that there were things that

triggered that and there were things
that I, naturally I would seek to avoid.

Yeah, right.

And so this back in the two thousands, and
I would've loved trigger warning culture.

I would've been all about it.

Like I would've been like, yes,
thank you for telling me that this

show is gonna have three things that
are definitely gonna set me off.

Um, or this article, or, you know, for
a long time there, I couldn't scroll.

I couldn't scroll the feeds because
I was gonna come across something

that was gonna send me spiraling.

But what eventually happened is I
learned about how agoraphobia was

just the old fashioned term now for
what we call generalized anxiety.

And I learned about generalized
anxiety, which was that it's, it's

it, it's a process that you end up at.

You don't start with generalized anxiety.

You start with something more
specific and then you end up.

Uh, trying to avoid that thing.

Then you end up trying to avoid
things that remind you of that thing.

Then you try and then you end up with
a massive list of things that you're

trying to avoid, and then your whole
life becomes avoidance basically.

And then you can't leave the house.

You, or you might not even
feel safe at home either.

when I stopped answering text messages
and calls and, you know, things like

that for a while So I was in a high,
I was in a state of high reactivity

to things and was constantly trying to
manage my environment to, to remove the

things that were gonna cause me to react.

What I eventually learned, and
this is where trigger warning

culture eventually landed at too.

Was that the things that were setting me
off, I needed to face them at some point.

Mm, that it wasn't gonna get
better by removing all of the

things that made me reactive.

Because even if I could control my media
diet to such an extent that there was

nothing in there that made me feel unsafe,
people were still gonna say things like

without meaning to, without being right
wing jerks, they without being edge

lords, they were just gonna say things
just in a normal course of existence

that tell a story about their own life
that was gonna make me feel awful.

And I'm like, okay, well I have
to deal with these feelings.

What kind of things were
triggering you back then?

Well, anything.

Well, uh, well, you know, anything to do
with death, uh, after my mother passed or

even, you know, when she was still sick.

well, anything to do with cancer.

I can, I almost can't remember as much
of the detail now, which is a good thing.

'cause you know, that's one of the,
apparently one of the things that really.

Is helpful to us is we do forget and
it's good to forget, and to kinda

let, let stuff fade a little bit.

But it did, like I said, it
turned into a really massive list.

things to do with relationships failing.

interesting.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, 'cause I, I feel like I
live my life a little bit like what you

were describing from the two thousands.

Like I've really.

CI really control my media diet.

Uh, I don't, I I went from
being a news junkie mm-hmm.

Within, oh, I was a news junkie
too, as we've talked about.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Within economist subscription, who
would probably, even at my peak, even

compared to you, Sam would know more
about what's going on in the world.

Oh yeah.

Even the little countries that no one
thinks about in Africa or whatever.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

I knew what the fuck was going on.

Yeah.

And I was paying.

A top dollar to get this
information, and I felt great until

I didn't, until it was really.

You know, I think probably Ukraine
war was too overwhelming for me and

just, yeah, a nuclear power going to
war in Europe was just like, mm-hmm.

It was so shocking that I just
couldn't, it, it didn't seem, seem

distant anymore, and it was just
too terrifying to contemplate.

And I find Putin so
terrifying as a character.

Mm-hmm.

That I started to withdraw
and then I kept withdrawing.

And then something I
mentioned on the show is.

News organizations I used to trust growing
up, like The Guardian became really nasty.

Clickbait, yeah.

Organizations, and I think the
one I mentioned on the show was

Planet Killing Asteroid headed
towards Earth was a mm-hmm.

Clickbait headline they had.

Yeah, when I'd had, yeah.

You know, with my bipolar I'd
had months of losing sleep,

thinking about an asteroid.

Mm-hmm.

hitting the earth and
killing us all, you know.

Mm-hmm.

Not months, almost a year or two.

I thought about asteroids a lot.

uh, that's just an example.

I can relate.

Yeah.

That's just an example.

But I, I just found I couldn't trust,
any of the news sources anymore.

And then.

Yeah.

And then the economists turned really
propagandistic once the Ukraine

war did start, and I didn't trust
them so much as a source anymore,

which maybe I never should have.

Mm-hmm.

'cause they're highly ideological.

Um, I think we should be suspicious of
absolutely every single media outlet.

Not, not suspicious to the degree
that we just cannot get any sort

of grip on reality whatsoever.

Yeah.

But, but that, you know,
there's a reasonable critique.

That I could make of every single
media outlet you've mentioned.

Yeah.

And then when I, but what changed?

What's changed in the
last 12 months is ai.

Mm.

Because now when I'm feeling strong,
not when I'm first thing in the

morning, when I'm having my coffee.

Yeah.

When I'm anxious and raw.

But when I'm feeling strong, give
yourself, give yourself a moment.

Yeah.

If I'm having a strong moment on a
Sunday afternoon relaxing mm-hmm.

Dinners in the oven or something.

Mm-hmm.

Hey, chat GPT.

What's going on with the Ukraine War?

Okay.

Is there a path to peace?

What would that look like?

How do we solve this problem?

How?

Who's working on solving climate change?

What are some solutions here?

And I frame my questions to AI in a
way that isn't just blood and gore.

Mm-hmm.

And enables me to engage
with the topic realistically.

But in a framing that I find
is not a complete waste of time

that's just going to, to get
back to the topic, make me react.

Yeah.

And you know, so I found it.

It's been systematically clearing
my head for the last six months.

Mm-hmm.

These sessions I've had with chat.

GPT.

Yes.

Like, because I can go so deep
and get into all the intricate

details, but it's on my terms.

Mm-hmm.

And it's without any, uh, images.

I'm not watching footage
over a war taking place.

I'm not looking at photos
of Putin or whatever.

I, no, no, no.

I, I don't think images of conflict
are useful for the most part.

You might, you might need to see one
or two to, you know, get some sense.

But if you're actually trying to, if
you're trying to understand what's

going on, it, it, overall it is better
to stick with, with analysis and

firsthand reports, I think is, you know.

Yeah.

But yeah, in terms of reaction
and reactivity, I tightly, now

I tightly control my media diet.

Mm-hmm.

Because the other thing in my
lifetime that happened was.

When I was a teenager, my parents
would get the newspaper delivered.

Yeah.

And I would read the news in the morning.

Yeah.

Or when I was in my early twenties,
I might read it in a cafe.

Yep.

While I was having a
sun dried tomato fica.

Yeah.

You know, in the, in the naughties.

Oh man.

You took me back.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, you, so I'd read, you're triggering
me with sun dried tomatoes right now.

I'd read, I'd read the
paper in the morning.

Yeah.

And then forget about the news.

Have a great day.

Have a great Saturday night.

And this was pre, you know, wake up
Sunday and then I might think about

the news again and read a paper again.

If I went to a cafe or whatever, or my
parents got one delivered or whatever.

When it changed to having
an iPhone in my pocket.

And if I wanted to, I could have Twitter.

Twitter or the news.

I mean, I reaction and reactivity.

Is Twitter.

Oh, absolutely.

Yes.

And someone like Donald Trump comes
along and is like, wow, here's this

reaction and reactivity machine.

Absolutely.

I'm gonna use it.

Mm-hmm.

And react and activity my way into power.

Yes.

And the ultimate troll.

Right?

Absolutely.

And, and it, and revealing in the
process over the last 10 years, well,

he's done us all a favor in one sense
because I, I think everyone it, I think

everyone is starting to realize that.

The attention mill and the
reactive, the, you know, the

reactivity of the news cycle.

And then reacting to the reaction.

And then reacting to the
reaction, to the reaction.

Like I think we're all starting
to get a bit sick of that.

And there seems to be a little bit more
appetite for like, not in all quarters,

but to try to, to, you know, try to
change the conversation to like, okay,

but what should we do versus spending our.

Whole day, you know, getting wrapped
around the axle of whatever the

latest stupid thing someone said,
and that it's also a terrible way

to govern, so to govern by reaction.

And that a lot of management that I've
dealt with over the years will not

change policy, for sensible reasons, like
internal pressure from their own people.

Like, Hey, this is what's happening.

This is what the policy should be.

Nope.

But one phone call, one angry
phone call from a, stakeholder

and there's a policy change that's
reactivity, so from management.

So they're terrified of, you know,
this thing happens, so let's change

everything to avoid that thing
happening again, rather than what's

the, what's the reality that we want to.

Try and help shape here.

What's the positive version?

And so I will say controlling the
media diet is a, is a sensible policy.

And in your case, you've had to
control it more than most would

for the sake of health and sanity.

And so continue doing that.

But you know, in wellbeing, we'll talk
about risk factors and protective factors.

So yeah, cut down those risk factors.

Sure.

But what are the
protective factors, right?

What are the things
that are gonna give you.

The stomach and the ability to
withstand the stuff that does get in.

You have to address that
side of the equation as well.

what, in your case, you've been
able to increase those protective

factors as well over time, so you.

The ability to manage your sanity is not
just based entirely on avoiding the things

that are No, I think that, meditation has
been a huge one for me and in the Buddhist

sense to be a good practicing Buddhist.

My understanding is we don't react.

We respond.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So we absorb.

So I have to be willing to absorb.

It's something scary that someone says,
so if I get to work and someone says, oh,

do you hear what Trump did last night?

I'll be like, what's this
the end of the world?

Yeah.

And then I have to go away in my
own time and talk to chat GPT and

what's, what did Trump do yesterday?

And it's 'cause stuff will get
in even with a complete lockdown

on news media, which I have.

That's what I'm saying.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like we cannot, we cannot make
the environment 100% safe.

We can't do it.

No.

And I.

I, I don't want to be putting my head
in the sand, but I'm not, because when

I take my time and I reflect mm-hmm.

I do ask questions about Gaza.

I do ask questions about Ukraine.

I do ask questions about climate, but
it's a conversation between me and AI and.

I, you know, I also, the other thing I
tried to do before I went to a full media

plan was to have a couple of bloggers.

And that went really sour on me as well.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like I was following Noah Smith
and then he started predicting

terrifying things around China, and
then I was losing sleep over that.

And yeah, I think that he's not
a foreign policy expert, but

he's just a very engaging writer.

Yes.

I thought I could just have
one person who was what?

It's almost like there's one person,
he's reading all the news, he's

telling me what I need to know.

And that's how he markets himself.

And he is Yes.

You know, making millions doing it.

Yes, that's right.

Uh, but in the end, that's
a really, that is worse.

It's worse than the New York Times
because, Hey, and look, I actually not

against that idea in, in general, like,
I think a handful of trusted voices.

Yeah, a handful.

Yeah.

Yeah.

As a conduit is actually
probably a, a really good,

really good way to go about it.

And it's kind of what I do.

I have a handful of trusted,
people that I listen to.

Uh.

but also those people are a gateway
to other trusted people, and so it's

an, it's an information network.

I've noticed with you, you
maintain a level head, like mm-hmm.

And you go deep into stuff.

I do.

Yeah.

Like we were talking about.

Uh, Russia, Ukraine in the group
chat a couple of months ago.

Yeah.

And you were able to give me, as you said,
probably like an undergraduate level.

Mm-hmm.

Russia expert understanding from the just
sheer amount of stuff you somehow absorbed

while doing domestic tasks and whatever
you do, you know, working a full-time job,

you seem to have hoovered up incredible
amount of information about Russia,

Ukraine, but you've never once said to me.

Oh, I'm really scared or whatever.

It's really no.

Triggered me and I've lost
heaps of sleep and I'm reacting

to it in this sickening way.

And well, I've got good news for you in
the sense that I, I, I do actually, I

don't wanna leave you on a rock feeling
like you're the only one worried about it.

Right.

So there are times when it has
worried me, and one of those things

was, you know, Trump's reelection.

But of course, I went back to the
fundamentals in my analysis, which were.

That the act, you know, you listen to
the experts on the conflict and they'll

tell you that Trump's reelection,
they'll tell they'd told you this back in

October or September last year, that his
reelection is not gonna solve anything for

Russia because the fundamental problems
they're facing are far too difficult.

They're not gonna be able to get
themselves out of this mess just because,

best even if every single thing they
ever dreamed Trump might be able to do.

to make their lives easier.

Even if all of that happened, they would
still be in a very difficult position and

would have to negotiate sooner or later.

So that's the good news.

But there was, for about a month
there, I steered away from it and I

had this sick feeling that like it
was gonna go off the rails again.

But no.

So where my, where my feelings are at.

About that conflict is
that I feel sad about it.

and I feel a natural level of
concern and I'm quite, I'm, uh, I'm

sad for the suffering of the, the
average person on both sides of that

conflict, but I'm fairly morally
clear about who's in the wrong.

Overall, and there have been some
irresponsible actors on both sides, but

there is a clear aggressor and there's a
clear party that needs to defend itself.

And I'm confident that they're
gonna be able to do that.

And the fear scenario, what we've
seen again and again and again,

the red lines that Putin has drawn,
have been stepped over without.

Any meaningful response and
Yeah, I mean, I think that it's

a paper tiger at this point.

When I thought that Putin was
gonna blow up the world, or my mind

was telling me, yeah, I've got.

It's worth remembering that
I have bipolar disorder.

Yes.

It's, it's worth remembering.

Yes.

And I get apocalyptic visions
just for fun, you know?

Yes.

And even if there wasn't
Russia going on, no.

Yeah.

It'd still be meteors and whatever.

Yeah.

If I, if I can do asteroids.

Yeah.

And.

I can do volcanoes, then I
can easily do nuclear war.

That's right.

And when I was in it and it was bad, I
was reading The Economist at the time.

Mm-hmm.

And someone said to me, an old friend
said, it's like it's you and some

people in Montana who were convinced
that the world's about to blow up.

Yeah.

Like, which was probably helpful.

It was helpful.

Yeah.

But so, so, 'cause that's
the other way with.

To respond rather than react.

Mm-hmm.

Is to become an ex subject matter expert.

Yes.

So you can read everything on something.

Yes.

And by the time you
read everything mm-hmm.

You'll usually calm down.

Yes.

As opposed to a headline.

Mm-hmm.

Or a tweet.

Yes.

And those click bait headlines.

you know, planet killing
asteroid headed towards Earth.

The point is you click on the article,
and the article reassures you.

Yes.

And then you have this emotional
reaction, which is, yeah.

Oh, thank you.

Guardian.

Yeah.

Oh, what's this button?

Donate?

Mm-hmm.

Oh, great.

I'll donate.

Thanks for calming me down.

It's like, no, no.

The guardian triggered you,
the fireman who comes Yeah.

Yeah.

The arsonist who comes back as a fireman.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

No, it's, it's abusive.

Right?

Tr.

Yeah.

Clickbait headlines are followed
by articles which calm you down.

Yes.

Or reading thousands of
articles like you did.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

PO listening to podcasts Yeah.

Will eventually calm
you down because mm-hmm.

Behind the latest statement
or, uh, maneuver or whatever

is long term strategy.

Yes.

There's a long term strategy of Russia.

There's a long term strategy of the us,
same with China, and those things actually

move a lot more slowly than the latest.

Headlines.

Yes, that's right.

So that, that's the really key thing.

When you, you listen to the
sort of the academics who study

this stuff for a living and you
know, they've got a steady job.

They're not reliant on
a monetized audience.

Yeah.

And they're not, they're not
captured by a particular discourse.

They might have their biases,
but the overall, they are nerds

who wanna understand something.

And those are the people to listen to
and have that same mentality of going

from, Uh, like, and this, this applies
to all the things in my life that have

triggered me over the years and that I've
had to learn, oh, if something's worrying

me, I need to direct my attention to it.

But also find out what's beneath,
like what's causing the worry?

What is it about this particular topic?

That is bringing this out in me.

What's that?

What's the layer beneath that?

Yeah.

What, what, yeah.

And so for, so for me, for me, three years
ago, there was more work to do in therapy.

Yeah.

About understanding what I
didn't get from my childhood.

Mm-hmm.

Which I needed to get.

Yes.

And that meant that.

While other people might be a little bit
worried about a war in Eastern Europe.

Yeah.

I was convinced we were all going to die.

Yes.

So the problem was in me.

Yes it was.

It was always there was this.

Thing in me that triggered
is a perfect word for it.

Mm-hmm.

I get triggered and then I spiral.

Yeah.

And then I can't stop seeing
these apocalyptic visions.

Mm-hmm.

And then I'm distracted
from my daily life.

Yes.

And that's, yeah.

Why I think I ended up coming around to
this media blackout thing is like mm-hmm.

I'm now, you know, being good dad
doing some good work in mental health.

I am able to, in my sphere of
influence, be a positive person.

If I'm not distracted Yes.

But if I'm distracted, if I'm down
some rabbit hole buried in the phone.

Yeah.

Like I'm buried in the
phone enough already.

Yeah, yeah.

You're not there for the people that Yeah.

I'm suddenly, I'm just
distracted from my own life.

Mm-hmm.

That's that.

That's right.

Adam's pointed this out to me so many
times and uh, and what is the purpose?

Your, what is your purpose in being
really interested in this thing and

building these castles in the air?

What's your purpose?

What, yeah, what's that?

What's that getting you away from
when I realized you'd become a

Russia expert, I thought, well,
Sam's obviously got other things

going on in his life that he's Yeah.

Distracting himself from.

Well, one of the, one of
the genuine reasons was.

Is this going to be a huge
problem that will come home to me?

like there was a genuinely, like
I needed to address that question.

but also as always, there's always
something quite personal and yes,

it's engaging and yes, it takes
me away from other concerns.

Sure.

Uh, but I think that I'd
always had this enduring.

Fascination with Russia, the Soviet Union,
and you know, czars Russia before that.

And I was interested in the way
the psychology of the way we

talk about that country and.

that form of territory and what the
Soviet Union represented in people's

minds and you know, sort of fears
and fantasies people project onto it.

Yeah.

So I felt like it was this really fertile
psychoanalytical territory and there

are people that talk about the sort
of psychology of how we think about

Russia and yeah, it because it is like
we simultaneously sort of feel this

pity and contempt, but also this fear
you know that they built these cannons

down in Hobart back in 1890 'cause
they were worried about the Russians.

You know?

Yeah.

It's like, it's this thing that goes back.

The Russians have been a
problem for a long time.

They've really been this
useful monster as well.

Yeah.

Yes.

But see, when I.

I never really thought
about Putin as a person.

He was just someone whose photos would
appear in the Economist and he was making

terrifying threats towards the west.

Yes.

And then he did that
interview with Tucker Carlson.

Yeah.

And I was like, oh, he
is actually pretty funny.

Yeah, yeah.

Oh no, no.

He is got some witch.

And I was like, and he's also a human.

Much as opposed to he'd become like
a, a bit like a Satan type figure.

Oh, absolutely.

No, in my in, I'm not saying in
a supernatural monster, someone

monster, someone dumber than me.

I'm saying in my mind, no, of course.

Come like a supernatural.

Yeah, like Satan type.

He's gonna be the last thing
we all see on our TV screen.

That's right Before we all die.

I think you were, you were
very primed to accept.

The, the subtle and not so
subtle ways that he's been

animated as that sort of figure.

Yeah.

And that, that's serving
very useful purposes.

Be for, for one, that people
aren't wrong when they say,

you know, he's a thug and a.

Uh, mafioso, you know, like all of
that's true, but it's a great way to

make some other thing look better.

Some other thing that,
like western capitalism.

Yes.

Some other thing that ought
to be staunchly critiqued.

The, it's, it's this, it's this,
uh, perverted, cracked, uh, darkened

mirror that, that we look into.

And what I learned about how the West
has fantasized and and nightmare about

Russia helped me to understand a lot
more about human psychology in general

and how we like build up these things in
our mind, that we project things onto.

Uh, we, we make things the.

The scapegoat.

We make people a scapegoat.

we project the things we hate about
our most hate about ourselves.

We project onto a very selected other.

Yeah.

And so for, for incel.

Women become the, yeah, the source
and target of all that is evil.

And all they despise about themselves is
put onto women for white supremacists.

They can put all their fears and
fantasies onto the colored other,

and we're all, we're all doing this
process until we become aware of it.

And this is a very Buddhist type thing.

You know what you're gonna put
on the other, it's, you know,

you gotta say to yourself, oh.

I know they are, but what am I?

Yeah, what is the what?

What am I actually saying about myself
with all this stuff that I'm, yeah.

Putting onto people with this stuff I'm
worrying about learn about yourself.

And that's what I eventually realized,
that like it's my study in this area

had just pointed, pointed back to, Yeah.

What sort of problem
are we trying to ignore?

What sort of blame are
we trying to deflect?

What, what sort of self-critique
are we trying to avoid here?

Yeah.

I, I think that it took me five
years in therapy to realize that,

there was always gonna be another.

Thing to be scared of.

Yes.

And it was very clear.

Mm-hmm.

'cause my fears are so vivid.

Yeah.

That it was climate change
when I went in there.

Yeah.

And then COVID started, then it was
COVID for a while, and then, yeah.

Ukraine War started, so then it was
Ukraine War, and then I kind of released

it and the next one was gonna be ai.

That's definitely the next one.

Yes.

Um, very easy to project
anything you want onto that.

Yeah, yeah.

So, yeah, but I stopped short of AI
and, and sort of spun around a 180

and thought, I actually find this
really good and really helpful, and I

think it could really help humanity.

So I started reading a
Doom, a book, and I thought.

I'm not gonna become a DOR about it.

If it wipes me out, it wipes me out.

I haven't found the domer side of
it as convincing as I might have.

and maybe that's because I am
better at managing fears and

deconstructing the fears that I have.

Yeah.

You are also good at
understanding tech, which I'm not.

I can, I can say.

With my undergraduate creative
arts background, I can have a

literate conversation with chat
GPT that I find deeply satisfying.

Mm.

And that is tech that
I like, whereas Yeah.

Yeah.

Like code or whatever.

I was never gonna come at code, so
suddenly cutting Edge Tech has come into

my language and I like it, you know?

Well, well, it can also
help you to understand code.

If you want.

Um, I don't want, well, you know,
we can, you can, you can, you

can ask it to write some for you.

But, but I think that, I did the work
in therapy and I'm, I wanna pause at

the moment and I might go back, but I.

I think I was able to see that.

The one thing I couldn't admit to myself
was that despite their best efforts, my

parents didn't give me the emotional Yeah.

Stability and nourishment that I needed.

Yes.

And they also put me down at times.

Mm-hmm.

And I came into adulthood with this
gaping fucking wound inside me.

Mm-hmm.

And that can be filled.

Mm-hmm.

With a Putin or So we talk
about reaction and reactivity.

Yeah.

It's What are you carrying
around before the thing happens?

Well, that's, you know, before
you see the headlines Yes.

Or whatever.

That's right.

What are you, what, and that's
where meditation comes in for me.

Mm-hmm.

Is I stabilize myself every day so that
when those bad moments happen mm-hmm.

Or like I've had scares with my
kids' health and stuff like that.

Yeah.

When the shit goes down, I find
myself to be quite calm actually.

Yes.

Like when it's time to take a kid to the
hospital, I'm calm and focused and clear.

Uh, and what's the difference
between those two things?

You know, you can think about that, that
the media or the asteroid or whatever you,

you can't do much about, but, well, no,
and sometimes in a emergency there might

not be much you can do, but I don't know.

It's direct and you are there and
someone's counting on you and.

Yeah.

I think a lot of reactivity initially
in my life came from a fear of death.

Yeah.

And therapy's done enough
work that that's diminished.

And it's something you said on
the show was a fear of death is

really a fear of a life wasted.

Yes.

And I think when I was around getting
minimal work in the film industry Yeah.

And then when I did the work,
it was meaningless to me.

I had a lot of fear of death that I,
that's gonna do it now that I rock

up five days a week in public mental
health and the work is meaningful.

That fear is not, it's just
not there in the same way.

Um, yeah.

Yeah.

That, that, yeah.

I've gotta say that was a big
help for me to, to, you know, be

able to say most days at least.

Uh, well, I mean, I don't know how good of
a job I did, but I mean, I made an effort.

Yeah.

I feel like I've earned my keep Yeah.

With the world, you know?

Yeah.

That's what I'm doing at the moment.

Yeah.

And I'm, yeah.

I've still got plenty of
struggles when I felt useless.

Yeah.

To myself and to humanity.

Then I fear death.

I mean, anxiety could, was inescapable.

Yeah.

You know, and like, yeah, someone gave
me that advice years ago and it took

a little while to put it into action.

But you know, I've said this
before on here, it was Marni,

my dad's old girlfriend.

She said, you know, you're
happiest when you've got something

to do and or you know, when
you're focusing on someone else.

Yeah.

Uh, for a minute, you know, and
you get outta your own mess.

Yeah.

You, you feel a lot better.

Yeah.

And like do stuff for
other people, you know?

Yeah.

And I'm like, yeah.

And that's what Sure.

That's what, um, addiction recovery,
the stuff that I've done the last

10 years is all based on that.

Mm-hmm.

Getting outta self, being
there for other people.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's right.

That's, that's how it works.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

Like, that's, that's it.

Take someone who's, you know,
to use your phrase, wrapped

around the axle of their own ego.

And it says, why don't you go
and help that other person?

They need help too.

Yeah.

Yes.

You know?

Yes.

And that's, that's one of the
main principles of that addiction

recovery work that I've done.

but I wanted to talk about when she
mentioned, when Liv mentioned reaction

and reactivity being triggered.

Yeah.

It did made me think of an exchange
we had about a year ago about Gaza.

Mm-hmm.

Where I feel like you got react.

Oh, sure.

Reactive and ended up calling me a cunt.

Yes, I did.

Which probably in the 25 years
we've known each other is the

only time you've called me a cunt.

Oh, really?

I think so.

Probably behind my back.

You've done it more often?

No.

No, not, no, no, no.

Um, and I think that in the last
two years, yeah, understandably,

that's been the number one mm-hmm.

Reactivity issue in the world.

Like everyone.

Yeah.

It's almost like there's no
neutrals, like everyone is.

Hmm.

Thrown into a camp and everyone has
a reaction and, well, it's funny

you should say neutral, because
there was this directive from the

minister oh, I can't remember exactly.

It was a few months after October
and the, might have been January, and

uh, we're just going back to school
and there was this ministerial.

I dunno if it was an order or, anyway,
it was this real cowardly document

that was forwarded by the principal
to staff saying, uh, when this topic

comes up, you know, remember that
there's a requirement to be neutral.

so I went and looked all that up and I
found that, oh yeah, okay, teachers can't.

Lobby in their capacity as teacher
on behalf of a political party.

Okay, sure.

Makes sense.

And that's coming from
the state of Victoria.

So when there's a state election in
particular, you know, you can't advocate

for a side in your capacity as a teacher.

Right?

okay.

Fair enough.

And when it comes to federal elections,
the same thing sort of applies, but

it's not coming so directly from the
State Department, uh, of education.

but certainly was it Morrison or was
it Abbott or someone who was like.

Basically kind of made a veil threat at
some point that we are gonna go after.

Any teachers that, criticize us, they,
they, I don't think they did in the

end, but like they tried to put some
chilling effect on speech, which was

what this ministerial order was about,
uh, about being neutral on this topic.

and I got really this really.

It got to me, in a number of ways.

One was that I had students that wanted
to talk about it, that were worried,

that were angry, that were, were, they
were experiencing grief and feelings

of horror, all of which is normal.

And I found myself feeling
unsafe and unable to.

Know how to respond when it came
up, and that I felt unable to just

respond as a human to it, and that
I felt a need to kind of move on.

and part of that was a, yeah, a fear
of to do with, you know, employment

because it was not clear from
what the minister had said, or the

departmental secretary or something.

It was maybe not the minister.

It came from a public
servant, not a politician.

That was, that was one of the things
about it, that it was not clear from

it what neutrality was and what the
process would be if someone was said

to be in breach of that neutrality.

And so I asked the powers that
the he in my school, I said, okay.

Well, it'd be great to have a
working definition of what a

neutral position is on this topic.

If someone could tell me that.

Now, this sounds like a real smart
ass thing to say and it is, but

that was after I tried asking the
question 20 or 30 different ways

in draft emails and I, I started.

Laying out, various scenarios
and saying, what do you do here?

What do you do here?

What do you do here?

What do you do here?

then I eventually just realized,
no, it just comes down to one

really difficult problem, which
no one will have an answer for.

What is neutrality when it comes to this?

So would it, is it neutral to allow
the facts themselves to be discussed?

Right?

What if the facts make one
party look worse than another?

Then what does neutrality require of us?

Then should we find ways to present
the facts that make it seem more even?

Is that what neutrality is
or is a neutral position?

In fact one that just says,
well, I don't personally know,

every last thing about this.

But I might take some direction from the
ICJI might take some direction from the

experts, who seem to be saying that it
looks like this, it seems to walk like

a duck, quack, like a duck, et cetera.

It, it, yes.

And then feelings of, so just on a
personal reaction, a personal reaction

level, like quite aside from, you know.

The whole politics of how I talk
about it, especially in a workplace,

just personal feelings of, you know,
especially you walk around this part of

town, there's a lot of posters and, um,
murals and things, that I've, you know,

definitely taking a certain position.

And there's one, heart of my
Heart and the, the grandpas

holding his granddaughter.

well, her lifeless body, and

I've come across that one a few times and

I'm grateful.

I'm grateful to the person who made
that poster for at least one reason,

which is it really, it got me out
of a funk one day when I saw it.

I know that's a strange thing to say.

I was feeling sorry for myself, and when
I saw that, it just got me out of it.

I was like, no, other people are
objectively suffering much worse,

and I need to remember that.

Mm.

And it really focused me on.

Every time I think about the
children there, it focuses me

on how my children need me.

so that's one good thing
that's come out of it.

But I, my soul will not be at rest until.

Something improves dramatically.

this is not like other things where,
you know, where I would get triggered

by things, you know, Howard or Abbott
did, or I would get triggered by right

wing discourse on the internet, or you
know, triggered by some dumb ass piece

of economic analysis in the Fairfax
press where I feel like I need to like.

Get on YouTube and record a take down
and exert some sort of control over this,

this situation and, you know, get my
ego involved and like, try and set the

record straight and bring some justice
to the world and position myself as a, as

a hero and a, yeah, it's not like, yeah.

Mid-teens q and a where it's
all kind of fun and yeah.

Politics club for smart,
snotty little kids.

Yeah.

Can you get your, uh.

Tweet written out on, can
you get your zinger in there?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's right.

Yeah.

Can I, can you get your tweets shown on
the screen of q and a in 2012 or whatever?

Fuck it was.

Totally.

Can I, can I be the one with With
the most ringing, poetic critique of

the liberal party, like, you know.

Yeah, no, no, it's not like that.

It's life and death and it's, yeah.

You know, the Middle East.

Is anyone neutral in the Middle East?

I don't like, uh, well,
that's, well, that's right.

Like, can anyone be
neutral over this issue?

I, well, I'm not proposing that we talk
about it in depth, Sam, I'm just saying.

I was like, well, I'm just glad
I got that off my chest anyway.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, very well said.

And I, I don't want to talk
about it in depth, but it mm-hmm.

It, it made me realize that sometimes it's
better just to shut the fuck up, you know?

Yeah.

Because like, I, I, I don't
want to get into what about is.

I don't wanna say, or how far in
back in history do you want to go?

What I can say with confidence is I'm
not a subject matter e expert on this.

Mm.

well, I don't think you
need to be I'm No, no.

But, but, but I, I, for the same
reasons that I can't stare into

the void of Ukraine, I can't
stare into the void of Gaza.

Mm-hmm.

And then still function
and be there for Yeah.

My kids who are living a much more
privileged life in a, in much more safety.

I can't sort of do both.

I can't stare into the
fucking void of war.

Yeah.

And then still, and I do, maybe
it sounds like a cop out, but I

do think this bipolar thing that's
rattling around in my brain.

Yeah.

Doesn't make it super easy.

No, no, no.

Like, I think for that reason, I
couldn't actually be a, mm-hmm.

Head of state or whatever, you know?

I couldn't actually have agency
in any of this stuff because I

am unstable inherently, you know?

Well, there were, I think I've,
I vaguely recall coming across.

That there were people with
bipolar in, in high positions.

In Churchill.

Yeah.

In, yeah.

Right.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

I, that's why Churchill would come
in during the middle of World War II

and have a long Bath and not start
his day till 3:00 PM and Right.

He had to get himself quiet,
drink a lot of gin, and Yeah.

Yeah.

He was just fucked in the morning.

I'm fucked in the mornings too.

Yeah, yeah.

I can imagine.

anyway.

Well, yeah.

Well, but what I was, what
I was gonna say is that the.

I think what I, yeah, what I was
gonna say is I think that one gets to

you in a way that you can't just be
emotionally dispassionate about No.

No.

So you, you're not, it's not possible
for you to not react, you know?

No, that's right.

Like to whatever.

To the latest horror.

Yeah.

Or to me.

Yeah.

Maybe making some flippant comments
or some provocative comments.

Whatever I was saying at the time.

No, it was more just that
you were quoting certain.

People.

Douglas Murray, for example, and I was
just like, Douglas Murray on, on Gaza.

Not useful.

Douglas Murray on Ukraine.

Very useful.

It's, it's weird.

Yeah, that guy, like, on that
one, I mean, it's not weird.

I, I can't explain it, but, So there's
a protect, there's a self-protection

thing also that comes in, like when you
were talking before about not being a

subject matter expert, but like, it made
me think of, um, the way certain people

reacted to Sandy Hook, for example.

Mm-hmm.

That there is this disbelief, which
is I think a very sane response.

Right?

Who would want to believe
that someone did this?

Yeah.

And that had happened and some of Alex
Jones' listeners were all too ready for

ideological reasons to grasp at some way.

To deny or yeah, to change the narrative.

Right.

And this is something I've studied in
depth, because there is something I

find very fascinating about denial.

'cause I've done a lot
of it myself, right?

And so it is interesting
to look at it in others.

With a different ideological
position to your own, to, to sort

of perhaps try to understand your
own blind spots a bit better.

but what I eventually learned about
some of the most staunch Sandy Hook

Denialists was there was, there was an
emotional problem at the bottom of it.

That it actually wasn't so much
coming from a commitment to like.

Gun anarchy that some of them seem to
have like sort of absolute right to have

any amount of guns of any description.

It wasn't, I don't think that
was really what was driving it.

There were two more simple fears
the, the most obvious one being.

The fear that it actually happened, the
fear that the world could be so horrible

and that such a random thing could happen
and that not much could be done about it.

That's a deep fear.

Now, as it turns out, an
awful lot can be done.

Separate topic though.

But the other fear that was driving it was
not so much about disarmament, but that.

Someone's trying to control my
thoughts through this event,

through this fake event.

So those were kind of the
two main fears they had.

But there was this one woman who
eventually went so far off the rails

with this thing that she was, you know,
stalking some of the family members

and was, you know, trying to reveal
the truth and like, you know, going

through their mail and just like.

Like really off the rails and
blogging and you know, just making

a complete asshole of herself.

And, uh, some men as well, obviously.

But there was a curious thing that
happened in her case where she clearly,

she was very, extremely triggered by
this whole thing and was extremely

triggered by Alex Jones' coverage
of it, which is designed to do what

you were saying about the Guardian
or the economist freak you out.

And then sort of provide some sort
of reassurance based around Yeah.

And then you go, ah, thank you.

But you have to put all your trust
and faith and money in in me, and

then you'll continue to feel safe.

But I'll continue to freak you
out and make you feel helpless.

And, but people, it'll be this abusive
relationship, but people read The Guardian

because they want to feel something.

Oh, you reckon they're
going there for a trigger?

Like they're numb for a jolt.

They're numb.

People are numb.

Like, yeah.

Their lives aren't so bad.

So that, so that apocalyptic guardian
alert, almost people love it.

I almost felt something
sitting in the office.

Yeah.

10 30 in the morning.

Oh, I see that.

Oh, existential dread.

Okay.

So I won't have to do that
project this afternoon.

Oh man.

Wouldn't it be great if, yeah.

Yeah.

That everything just got called off.

That's the whole stick.

That's the Yeah, it's, it's, but sorry
for me, I'm, no, I'm not, I'm not numb.

No, no.

And neither are you.

And I think, I think around
this topic, you know, you fair

enough to react and be angry.

Yeah.

Like, and, and fair enough.

If you want to react and be
angry every day, and if you've

got the emotional capacity to.

Stare into it and engage with it and read
Douglas Murray and read fucking I know.

Well, there's also whoever
else you want to read.

Well, there's also just I, but I,
I won't be, fundamentally, there's

a guilt that my children are safe.

But your kids weren't
born in the Middle East.

Ah, but that's, that's not good enough.

Like, but so historically they were always
more, much more likely to be safe, right?

Yes.

Than to be born in that part of the world.

Yes.

I guess that's how I think
about the thing in my head.

Sure.

It's like.

You know.

No, but, but, but the, I know, I
understand that, that that would apply

more to like, same as in Eastern Europe.

Sure.

You wouldn't necessarily pick Eastern
Europe as the safest place to be born.

No.

And you wouldn't pick the Middle East.

So, so in a way the, it's reassuring to
me as a catastrophes, because the, yeah.

Okay.

The places where the bad things
are happening are the most

unstable and historically.

Violent places.

Yeah, I understand.

But, but the, there are very,
very direct causes that have to

do with direct choices made by.

You know, countries that you
and I are notionally citizens

of or in an alliance with.

So it is, it is a matter of some
importance to us, even if we don't have

a particular emotional attachment or not.

Oh yeah.

But no, you were talking
about kids safety though.

Yeah, exactly.

I'm talking about just
in terms of kids' safety.

Oh, well, no, yeah, no, I understand.

And.

But again, that longer term, if this sort
of thing is, is tolerated to any extent,

it, it actually makes everyone less safe.

Like, I mean, that's one
of the clear conclusions.

but when it, so back to the Sandy Hook
woman for a minute that she faced,

she ended up facing some facts that
almost broke her, like once she.

Certain things she'd been clinging
to that No, that proved that.

Proved that.

Proved that.

I'm not wrong.

She had a couple of things basically.

Unavoidably disprove, uh, yeah.

Her commitment to the, to the denial.

And she, but are you putting me in
the category of Sandy Hook woman?

No, no, no, no, no.

Because I don't think I've ever
denied the horrors of No Gaza.

No, no, no.

And you've not been going outta your way
to, you know, uh, be a nuisance over it.

But no, I'm not putting
you in that category.

No, but she, I was more
just fascinated by.

On a very personal basis, fascinated
by the story of a person being so

resolutely committed to a story and
finding things that justifies it.

And yes, this is ringing for me
because, you know, and we've all done

this and eventually it coming apart.

And what people are normally able
to do in that circumstance is.

Kind of move on and forget that
they ever had the other position.

Right.

Yeah.

We change our minds and then
we sort of the scar heels over.

Yeah.

Uh, in her case though, she
was on the record, right.

And it was very difficult
for her to move on.

I mean, Pauline Hansen did it though.

Someone said, Hey, didn't you used
to hate Asians instead of Muslims?

And she's like, no, I never hated.

Oh, Trump does it every day.

It's just gone.

Trump does it every day.

Yeah.

Anything that I like.

Yeah.

I'll, uh, wasn't he gonna have the Ukraine
War sorted before he was inaugurated?

Yeah, absolutely.

Weren't you gonna do that?

Yeah.

No, I never said that.

No, I never said that once.

The most powerful person, this guy
you were digging up the other day.

What about him?

I don't even know him.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And once the most powerful,
powerful person in the world is

just openly doing that, yeah.

It gives us all permission
just to be complete.

Just to disavow everything.

Yeah, but actually it
does the opposite, Sam.

It creates a responsibility
to live with more integrity.

I think it does.

It invites us to ask to
just not be like that.

You don't like Donald Trump?

Yes.

Okay.

Well, don't be like him.

We, and be honest.

Speak the truth.

And even if we like his politics, we have
to admit this is a shameful way to act.

And I would hate to actually.

I conduct myself in that way.

I would feel a lot of shame
even, even if I thought he was

doing good things and yeah.

And so for this poor old, this, I will
say I feel a lot of pity for this Sandy

Hook woman that she, was faced with.

If she admitted to herself what
was going on, she would feel

like an unforgivable monster.

Yeah.

And I think there was
something in that for me that.

in our efforts to create emotional
safety for ourselves, we can go too

far out of our way and then we can end
up with a sort of a moral or emotional

debt that has to be paid later.

Oh, so you're saying that that's where
I ended up by saying, oh look, you

know, there was a massive terrorist
attack on Israel and that maybe I was

kicked off this round of violence.

And what I get frustrated is.

That, that what I see is the left
not acknowledging that that big

terrorist attack happened before
getting onto the absolute valid.

See, I see, I see absolutely valid
criticisms of the absolute horrors

that Israel is doing in Palestine.

But I was like, but what about did
I not, it was, honestly, that was

my reaction was like, did I not
see this massive terrorist attack?

Like did they, were they
flying into a rave with a Joe?

You know what, you, you've actually
made a really good point here, so.

This was something, this reminded me
of something I wanted to say before.

So I'm not sure what got me onto her
other than just this desire to create

emotional safety, this sane desire
to, yeah, deny something horrible.

Uh, which is certainly something that's
happened in my life with some often just

very personal things like deny certain
realities, like, oh, mom's gonna die.

Or, you know, deny, you know, that, that.

Or when the, when the kids are sick,
I might put my head in the sand and

go, oh, they'll be fine when, you
know, um, you know, shit like that.

or I might ignore a credit card
bill or whatever, you know?

Sure.

Like, we all do this.

And so there's something about
that that I find fascinating and

I, but, but it was also, yes.

I guess subconsciously I was
thinking about your response to

it, but I wanna say this, that.

I've studied Alex Jones and his methods
such as they are to try and understand

what's going on there and with his
people and his role in the ecosystem.

And I'm interested in conspiracies and
fantasies and nightmares and all of that.

But I think that by, we should
rightly demonize Alex Jones, not

just as a bad person, but like.

On his own terms, but as someone who's
actually injuring his own audience, right?

And all of that's true, but it might
conceal or mitigate the same abusive

practices happening by so-called
legitimate respectable outlets who.

Have basically done a sandy
hook on Gaza to a degree.

Look over here.

That's not happening because, yeah, so
if you wanted, if a person wanted to

avail themselves of a framing where there
was a moral equivalence, guess what?

There's two years of media coverage
encouraging you to do just that.

It's all there.

And it's only recently that the dam
has started to show some cracks.

Ah, well, an elbow saying that.

Oh, it's, it's not acceptable.

I think Yeah.

There's a body count of a
thousand on one side to start off.

Just bear with me.

Right.

And then the response to that gets
to a body count of a thousand.

Right.

That might be model moral equivalence.

Yeah.

But say you're a little bit racist
and you decide that one group is

not as worth, their lives aren't
worthy as worthy as the other group.

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

So say they killed 10,000
people in response to losing

a thousand of their own.

Yeah.

N now even for a racist, you might be
like, oh, okay, we're getting a little

bit beyond moral equivalence now.

Yeah.

So in something like, wherever that line
is Gaza, you're up to like 60,000 after

800 were killed or something, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I'm not claiming a moral equivalent.

You ca there, there, there
might have been a point.

And I think that certainly
the right wing media.

Want to keep it as a, a moral equivalence.

But it wasn't in my
mind, well, my, no, no.

And maybe that position's evolved since
we had our argument over a group chat.

I, I, I, I don't know.

well, my, my issue is I was just getting
very frustrated because my position,

mm, better or worse, is that whole
part of the world is fucking crazy.

Yeah.

They're crazy on both sides.

But that's, I don't support other sides.

I don't support nationalism.

No.

But that I don't support.

of course I don't support
a, a terrorist organization.

I don't support a right wing government.

I don't support anyone.

But the problem, no, the yes, that,
that's an argument that might apply

in a lot of cases, but in this
one, it obscures certain basic

facts and it's designed to do that.

And I'm not saying you've chosen
it for those reasons, but it's been

presented to you for those reasons.

And I don't just critique the right
wing media when it comes to this.

I think that we were very much let down
by the so-called liberal media as well,

and the corporate media in general,
who have had a resolute determination

to misunderstand the basic facts of
colonialism, et cetera, going on.

Because to do that wouldn't
just threaten a particular.

Pillar of policy, it would actually
invite further questions about

other places, and it opens up
a whole can of worms that just.

A whole section of the media,
best majority of it were not

willing to, to open that.

They weren't willing to be the
person with their name to the

problem of opening that can of worms.

And then the part, but the part I
reacted to in Melbourne was that for

a little while I was dating someone
who was organizing the rallies.

Right.

Who was in the Socialist party.

Wow.

Okay.

And I reacted to the people
I find the most annoying.

Sure.

Were incredibly pro Gaza.

So, yeah.

I'm sorry.

Incredibly pro humus and all of that.

Right.

So I'm reacting in Melbourne to
my own cultural environment Yes.

Of like, who pisses me off,
who annoys me, you know?

Yeah, no, I understand that.

And that's where I'm
reacting, uh, as well.

But it's stupid.

It's a stupid reaction.

I, I, again, I, I.

I don't get any closer to
really understanding it.

Mm-hmm.

Um, to some, to the people on the ground,
it's, it's insulting to even Yeah.

React to, to the annoyance of, yeah.

To base our judgment of, of
events elsewhere on how locals

around us are responding.

Yeah.

'cause someone puts on a headscarf and
goes and gets a coffee in Northgate.

That annoys me.

Sure.

Right.

But it's, it's so silly compared
to what's actually happening.

Well, and, and yeah, and, and
potentially there are people

suffering who are innocent.

People who appreciate that person
wearing their fucking heads scuffed

to get a coffee of Northgate.

I don't fucking know either way.

I find it annoying either way.

It's an ancient impulse
to shoot the messenger.

And Yeah.

And I've certainly been guilty of it.

And, and this gets me to, you know,
something that I haven't talked about in

relation to this topic that, for example.

20.

So kind of like the earliest story I can
think of here about reactivity in me.

'cause we haven't, I haven't gone
enough into personal examples.

I'm sitting there, it's maybe 2001.

I'm gonna see a psychologist at Melbourne
Uni Counseling service, And in the waiting

room there's some magazines and there's.

skinny people on the cover.

Right.

And at the time I had a bit of an eating
disorder and I've had on and off and

I was in a delicate state and I was
feeling triggered by these covers.

I didn't have that language.

Right.

I was ahead of the curve.

I was triggered before it was cool.

Uh, no.

What I'm saying is I was
sitting there thinking.

I really wish these
magazines weren't here.

This is upsetting me.

and it's not wrong for me to want like a
more diverse concept of beauty out there.

'cause I felt like the masculine
beauty ideal didn't fit me.

I don't know if that was, if that was
true or not, but I just felt like it,

you know, didn't fit me but this was
like girls, not boys, on these magazines,

so like, Hey, I shouldn't be bothered.

Right?

But no, the sort of uneven culture of
beauty, the way women are shown also

affects, the way I think about myself is,
was a realization that I've had since.

And so I said to the
counselor, oh, you know, maybe.

I don't know, maybe those magazines,
you know, maybe there should be

different magazines in the waiting room.

You know, might, maybe you shouldn't.

There should be some more
thought about the people that are

there waiting to see somebody.

And so you might say that there's
a very, very early example of, I.

Trigger warning culture coming from me
and me wanting to be a bit censorious.

Oh, psychologist would've loved that.

Yeah, I think she did find it.

Yeah.

Oh, interesting.

Yeah.

So the magazine, Sam, yeah.

So tell me the magazines are the problem.

So before you got to the waiting
room, you didn't have any problems.

And then you sat down and you saw the
magazines and now I've got a problem.

You did this to me.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

And so it's not to say the
world doesn't injure us.

Of course it does.

And we can try and solve
that in a number of ways.

And, and we, we can try not to
look at the wound and we can

try not to feel the feelings.

But I guess this is the, the hopeful and
also, uh, well, maybe confronting thing

that I'd want to say about this, that.

Uh, you know, even though there were
times I felt completely unable to look

at things and address the things I needed
to address, but that nonetheless is where

we have to go, and that when triggers,
when triggers happen for us, it's really

important information that we're getting
and how we respond to that information.

It's not always easy to find the
constructive way, immediately

have to allow ourselves.

To have a range of responses before
we maybe try to get a bit of a

grip on it and go, okay, what,
what's really happening here?

I was happy watching this show
until that little thing happened,

and now I'm not happy, and now I'm
thinking these thoughts is okay.

What's that pointing me to?

what am I trying to avoid?

And if I admit this thing that
I'm trying to avoid, admitting.

Will I actually feel worse?

maybe I can do this.

Yeah, I was thinking of that before.

That's the other thing of like, okay.

To, to think it through a little bit.

What happens if I do get triggered?

Mm.

Is, it's so bad.

Mm-hmm.

I'll feel some anxiety for a while.

Yes.

I won't actually get blown
up in, you know, yes.

In that instant.

That's right.

So can we trust ourselves to, yeah.

Just maybe just feel
the fear for a moment.

Yeah.

Feel, yeah.

Spend, I don't know, maybe I could
spend a whole day in fear and.

Yeah, I'd be distracted, but it wouldn't,
maybe I'd have to take a day off work,

but would I be okay on the other side?

Like Yeah.

I still wouldn't actually have bombs
raining down on me in Melbourne.

Yeah.

And I've gotten myself right
side up before I can do it again.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that's the other thing
is yeah, the fear of fear.

Yes.

You know, big one.

Huge one.

Like the fear of fear.

So are you saying, what are you saying
to me though, like that I should pay

more attention to Gaza and Ukraine?

No, not necessarily.

I.

And I should feel, I should be outraged
and terrified and appalled and sad

and no, no for, well, for once this
little, that little anecdote I offered.

No, it was entirely for me.

You know, I, I wasn't, I.

Offering.

Anyone else advice?

Yeah, it sounded like that.

Maybe, but I'm just renewing.

No, no.

I mean, I'm just, we've gotta wrap it up.

I'm just trying to tie
together all the threads.

It seems like to me, you are
someone who can look the world s

squarely in the eye most times.

Use your intellect to understand
what you think's going on.

I think you have.

You often have an ideological
bent, which is to the, to the left.

Yeah.

And you're, you're gonna trust
left wing sources over, over

centrist or right wing sources.

Yeah.

So in a way, I can predict somewhat what
your position on something's gonna be.

Yeah.

whereas I've retreated, I've said, no
longer can I look the world squarely

in the eye and use my intellect
to understand what's going on.

Mm.

In some cases, I'm gonna stick
my head firmly in the sand and.

You know, apart from when I feel
strong enough to check in with ai,

what the latest is, and I do do that.

Yeah.

Um, which, which I wanna say is, sounds
good to me if it's working for you and

that it's not something I've tried yet,
but I might and 'cause I'm still sort

of still quite happy with my process
of like, you know, hand gathering and,

you know, that, you know, sort of,
so, so, so it's a difference between.

The woman I was dating who was standing
on Kulin Street shouting for a ceasefire.

Yeah.

And me asking cha, GPT, how do,
how do we get a ceasefire in Gaza?

How is that likely to happen?

Yeah.

And it will go, Here's all
the possible permutations.

Here's why it's so difficult.

Yeah.

Would you like to know more about Israeli
politics or the US influence, or would

you And then I can go do a deep dive.

Yeah.

And, but I'm focusing in on
how does this get resolved?

Not like what's the latest horror.

Yeah.

Because the horrors are unending.

Yes, that's right.

Um, and, and worsening.

So it's like.

the person who I was dating, who's
standing on the streets shouting for a

ceasefire, potentially is doing something
more useful than I am by looking up

how are we gonna get a ceasefire.

Mm-hmm.

But I would say it's pretty marginal the
impact that person's having in Con Street.

Mm-hmm.

And that's where I became super
cynical was like, yeah, like a rally in

Melbourne is, is not gonna influence the.

The Israeli government.

I'm sorry.

Like, oh, and look, can I, it's not,
can I just say though, I can find

it very relatable, everything you're
saying, even though my personal

response has been different, but I've
reacted the same way to other things.

Yeah.

Let's say, well, I went to the Iraq War
rallies, man, there was a million of us.

Yeah.

I know you've actually probably
done, I've done more rallies.

I've done, I think you've put
your body in it more than I have.

Yeah.

Yeah, I have.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you know, we stopped
the Jabal Luki Uranium Mine.

Yes.

We freed some refugees from ura.

Yes.

There were things I was involved
in, and then I became cynical,

like I, like I became cynical about
geopolitics and being on the streets.

I, I don't know.

I just don't think No, I, I understand.

And I just wanted to say this,
like, in fairness to all that.

It's just not easy to live in
a world where that's happening.

It's just life has been more difficult
for everybody and just that little bit

less fun for everybody because of it.

And so I'll just say that
from a purely selfish Yeah.

Uh, way.

And I'm not absolving
everybody necessarily.

Yeah.

But like, I just wanna acknowledge
it's not an easy thing to sit with.

And the people have found different
ways to react to it and a lot of

it based on protecting their own
feelings, which again, very normal.

And the seeing some futility in it is,
well, it's not unfamiliar to you or

me from things, battles that were lost
in the past, but as you pointed out,

there were some battles that were won.

And I've been thinking a lot as
I know a lot of other people have

been thinking about this recently.

you know, anger's a defensive emotion.

We were talking about that just while we
were on a pause in the recording here.

But there's another defensive
emotion as well, which is cynicism.

you know, giving into that feeling
of futility and it feels dangerous to

people at the moment to have any hope.

and me, uh, I know I've, I've had hopes
disappointed in the past, and I know the

risks, but I keep, I continue to hope.

It reminds me of the friends of my
parents, the Marxist, who always

predicted the revolution was
gonna happen in the next decade.

You know?

Mm-hmm.

Ever hopeful for the, yeah, for the great
calamity that would bring it all happen.

Yes, exactly.

Waiting for that.

The sixties and the seventies and
the eighties and the nineties.

Paris 68.

It's about to happen again.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It reminds me of, of them,
I, I don't know, like I think

we were saying are fair.

I think some things maybe that
I'd have to make you angry.

Maybe they could just make you sad.

Yeah.

No, and that's, and that's
where I was gonna land.

And to be fair, I'll be honest,
I, I, I've been so aghast at

the Middle East that I haven't.

Even allowed the sadness to really get in.

Oh, well, yeah.

No.

You know, I haven't, I haven't.

I realized the same thing.

I was trying not to let the
sadness get in and yeah, I haven't

felt the anger really either.

Yeah.

Or the sadness.

I've just kind of gone, wow,
that's a crazy part of the world.

I'm glad I don't live there.

And I think what made, which
is not how I was raised.

That's what I think probably
a lot of Australians do.

Maybe the average Australian
does that, about that.

Yes.

Yes.

Uh, and I've become a lot more
like the average Australian.

Mm-hmm.

I make a bit less than
the average Australian.

Anyway.

That up?

No.

In certain ways.

Yeah.

No, no.

I make less money.

I looked it up the other day than the
average, than the average Australian.

Certainly make a lot less than those
tradies I see every morning in less than

the average, average employee austral.

Anyway, that's a sidetrack.

which should be triggering to you.

I've taken that, I've taken that general
like, wow, what a crazy part of the world.

Who the fuck knows what's going on.

Mm.

Who knows what side to take.

It's sad, but I'm going to just ignore it.

Yeah.

That's what I've pretty
much done where Yeah.

But I've been around people like
that woman I was dating who are

deep, deep into it and on the streets
and shouting into father and Yeah.

so I, it's, I've been exposed to it.

Isn't that interesting?

Like I, yeah.

Even without wanting to, I've been
right up against people organizing

rallies and people like, uh.

People who you might say have
something in common with your parents.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

At a younger age in the
way I was raised and yeah.

yeah.

So David, you know, I'm, yeah.

Defying my, my upbringing, but I'm
glad we've been able to talk about

it today because it is something
that's very hard to talk about.

But when Liv mentioned reaction and
reactivity, I did think about you calling

me cunt, and I thought, fair enough.

And I don't think there's any other issue
that quite gets the level of reaction

or reactivity going as the war in Gaza.

No.

And maybe just before
that trans, you know.

Yeah.

Some of the trans discourse
has really made me mad.

and yes, on a particular side, uh,
and I've got my criticisms of some of

the discourse on the other side, but
nothing that compares with the absolute.

Either knowing fascist baiting
or unknowing fascist baiting,

I don't know which is worse.

and certain kinds of speech which has led
directly to harms, not just theoretically.

Hang on, we, we are finishing the show.

We opening up a trans Well, no, no.

I just wanted to point out that
before Garza came along, maybe

that was the thing that we most
occasionally came to loggerheads about.

oh, me and you?

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

And just more at the level of like.

Arguing about the discourse, I
think, rather than the issue itself.

And yeah, I mean, I, I try to find line
between somewhat rebelling against my left

wing upbringing and becoming like a bigot.

Yes, I think you do.

And you know, 'cause I
want to shed some of that.

I, I don't want to agree with
everyone who lives in Northgate.

Do you know what I, I
think it's very healthy.

To want to critique the orthodoxies
of your childhood, right?

Yeah.

I think that that is absolutely
necessary and, and advisable

and actually really healthy and
sometimes a really fun thing to do.

Also, to kind of just
poke at it and go, ha ha.

It's been fun to go from just
a standard lefty to a centrist.

Sure.

Yeah.

But, but, but when I did the vote Compass,
I'm like a hard left economic left person.

As it turns out, socially I've become
a bit of a centrist and the, I'm

not as socially progressive around
things like trans and whatever.

Well, and do you know what I.

Yeah, there's plenty of lefties
of that description, Joe.

Like you don't need to
feel alone by any means.

There are loads and loads and loads,
and I would even possibly count myself,

one of them in certain respects that
I'm far more interested overall in the

economic side of it than social policy.

and.

You know, trendy, progressive issues
of a sort of, more of a cultural

variety are less interesting to me.

But you have excellent pedigree
when it comes to trendy, progressive

issues like you Yeah, pretty much.

you know, you hit the right
notes on all those things.

Yeah.

That, that's true.

But part of that is like, just like
a knowing like solidarity that,

you know, people have requested
solidarity and I'm providing it.

Yeah.

But.

It, I just also, my personal
beliefs do tend to line up.

Yeah.

And, and that I do want people to
be able to express their gender

in whatever way and feel safe.

And, I also am willing to acknowledge
that it, it got a little too far in

certain areas in terms of, distracting
us all from some fundamental questions

that the language side of it.

It became far too prominent, which
was causing a right wing backlash.

And I mean, I don't give a fig if it
upsets them or not, but what it was

doing was distracting from really
fundamental issues like the economics of

healthcare and the economics of housing.

And yeah.

And it was a gift.

It was a gift.

It was a fucking gift.

Yeah.

And, and what 90% of the left wing folks?

That maybe have alienated you on
other things, you'd be surprised.

I think there's an emerging
consensus, which is.

Oops, we got sidetracked
by culture war stuff.

Yeah.

Let's get back to economics.

You're talking about the US
though, and we No, no, no.

I I think it's the same globally.

Well, we just elected another boring
state left government in Australia, so.

Sure.

And that had something to do
that had something to do with

getting away from culture war.

And, you know, maybe they were offering
something on, they were offering

something on the economic side of things.

Yeah.

But, but I, they stuck to economics.

But I think this is
across the western world.

The left across the western
world has had a reckoning.

I had a number of huge
setbacks and occasional signs

of hope that then withered.

So there's a profound reckoning, and
I'll just tell you one anecdote, from

a left-wing podcast that, uh, they were
talking about being at a conf, like being

at a proper hard, hard left conference.

And someone sort of raised the
question, in a speech, you know.

Why are we ineffective?

Why aren't we getting through
to the average person as much

as we think we should be?

Like not just like we believe
we're right and should be

getting through to more people.

No, no, no.

Why are we failing on the tactical and
strategic level and when we think we

actually, we probably should be doing
better on the tactical, strategic level.

Like we've actually got some
good messages here and uh, one.

lefty campaigner in his, uh, apparently
fifties or sixties stood up and he

said to a mostly younger audience, it's
because most of you are such cunts.

Yeah.

To each other, to the public.

You talk down to each other,
you talk down to everyone.

No one's fucking good enough for you.

You're so damn up yourselves.

And so self satisfied with like,
and this includes me with, you know,

how correct we are about things.

And we've allowed that to get in
the way of just saying to people.

Hey brother, do you need
help with shelter, brother?

Are you getting pissed on at work?

You know, like, what's getting you down?

We can help.

Like, yeah.

You know, we've, we've gotten away
from, you know, putting all of

our, our, our resources into like.

Cultural politics has meant that
yeah, the average person just

standing on the sidelines going,
well, wait a minute, who's looking

Like, I'm trying to pay the rent here.

Yeah.

And my wages are stagnant.

And like, who's, what are we doing?

What are we gonna do about that?

Like, and that, and as I've, and I've,
as I've said to long since, you know, to.

A very close person of mine who's,
trans, and I said, I think, could we

all agree the thing we all need is
affordable housing and healthcare?

And they were like, yeah, absolutely.

And that's what we
should be talking about.

Yeah.

And yeah.

And the word we've managed
to do a whole episode on.

Reactivity and avoid
using, is the word woke?

Yeah.

We have, what you're describing is
basically the woke mistake that Yeah.

Was, came to a huge reckoning
with Trump being reelected.

Yeah.

And I think, I think we got maneuvered
into that by the press, by the same

people who were running, you know,
carrying water for bad people as

we've discussed earlier in this thing.

And or, you know, helping us all
to live in a bit of a state of

denial about a lot of things and.

I don't think it's entirely our fault
that there were well-meaning people

who just felt that they had to react
all the time to the discourse going on.

Instead of like, no, no,
let's set up our own agenda.

Yeah, let's set up our own discourse.

Let's run a strategy.

Let's run a strategy and let's aim
squarely at the world we want instead of.

Trying to corral the discourse
or something like that.

I think the Australian Labor Party
ran a strategy and won that handsomely

other, I think part a big part of this
because I was spent the three years

of elbow getting broker and broker
and broker while working full time.

Yeah.

And that's still happening.

But when the election rolled around,
I thought, well, this guy's gonna

fuck me over less than the other guy.

But also, let's face it, if Trump had
to taken power after the election,

it might've been a different outcome.

Totally.

Yeah.

They got lucky.

I mean, it's like, oh, I see.

So they're geniuses in hindsight.

Yeah, because Trump got elected.

Exactly.

It's like, oh, you get a, you
get to have a look at what?

Patriarchal, blokey, corrupt.

Loose wheeling.

Right wing.

It looks like.

Oh.

It's like, actually we do want nerds.

We do want actually fairly
ideologically bland nerds in charge.

Yeah.

Perhaps.

I mean, that is one way
of reading the election.

I think the other is that.

There was a fucking massive effort
to discredit all the independents and

the teals and the greens, and that
basically all the people in this country

were actually providing any kind of
useful critique and demanding that

we do much, much, much, much better.

All of those people have
been absolutely dragged.

By every MA head in this country.

Like every last one.

I'll say that.

That there's this massive fear
of, oh, imagine if it wasn't

a two party duopoly anymore.

No, no, we can't allow that.

Like apparently that's the worst
thing PE people can imagine

is like minority government.

It's like back in 2016, the worst
thing that a whole section of the press

could imagine was a Sanders candidacy.

Oh, the horror.

And it's like, now look at where we are.

You fuck wits the, the worst case
scenario in your mind was like of

basically moderately left wing president.

That was the worst case scenario.

Unthinkable.

Now you've got a used car salesman
running the fucking world like.

Well done.

Well fucking done.

I think that's a really good
reactivity to finish up on.

Sam, we've gone down a lot of sidetracks.

We've opened up a lot of things that are
all like 90 minute topics, and that's an

insult to use car salesman fundamentally.

Some of them are probably okay, you know?

But yeah, you're right.

This is, yes.

Well, one thing that does trigger me
is, What could have happened instead?

You know, dam it, if I stop and
think about that, I do get upset.

Yeah.

Well, we're here now in our center
left, boring country bubble.

Yeah.

And, uh, I don't think
it's such a bad thing.

I, I think it's, uh, well, let's say we've
finally gotten Canberra back to center.

Right.

But you, and now we can
start dragging them.

You.

Well, that's your side of politics.

I'm a centrist, so I've
already achieved my aims.

I'm already pretty much
living in paradise.

it feels good.

One of these days you'll just,
but I can't afford a car.

No.

One of these days you'll just, my car
died and I can't afford to replace it.

That sucks.

Yeah.

So I'm driving my mom's car, but I'm
living in centrist heaven, you know?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Well, so I don't know.

Maybe Dutton would've put me in a
better economic position, but Well,

one of these days you'll just, I'm
willing to go down with the shit.

One of these days you'll just admit
you're a Hobbs bomb after all.

And yeah, you're gonna join us.

I have been reading a
lot of Marxist history.

I really wanna do a subject about,
I just wanna hear you talk about it.

Actually, yeah, we could talk some
Hobbs ball maybe on the next episode.

But I wanted to do a shout
out before we finish.

Today's episode was long and based on, uh,
one sentence topic idea from a listener.

Yeah.

So I would love to hear from one of
our listeners if there's something

you'd like us to talk about.

I was worried this was gonna
be a 20 minute episode.

It's longer than that.

Don't worry.

Yeah.

Um, so I think we can talk
about kind of anything.

So please.

Write in, send us a
message, send us a text.

If you know us, most of
you probably know us.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And we will talk about something
that you want us to talk about.

I did scare a few people, Sam, with my.

Tongue in cheek suggested we were gonna
do a 25 part series on the Ta de Ching.

Oh, yeah.

Now, that's not to say we won't
come back to it, 'cause I think we

will, but that was meant as humor.

We weren't gonna just do the ta de ching
for three years and, and it would've felt

like a deviation from like core business.

I understand that.

Well, Liv, when you proposed this
topic, wanted us to be relatable,

so hopefully we've been relatable.

Mm, yes.

Yes.

And, um, hopefully Liv's recovering
well from her appendicitis.

Yeah.

And if and when we do get back to the
Dao, which we will, that it's what

I've, my reflection on those first
two was like, yeah, yeah, fine, fine.

There was some worthwhile discussion
there, but I've since thought of much

better examples to illustrate like
how I think about that second verse,

for example, just very concrete.

Well, maybe that can be a
warning to the audience.

If you don't send us a topic
idea, we will get back to the Dow.

That's right.

You've been, you know, being warned.

You've been warned and that's right.

But on the other hand, if we do
end up there, for example, I was,

I was, I was thinking about beauty.

He, he's trying to start
a whole nother episode.

I was thinking about beauty and
ugliness more, and that's what I

love about the text is like you, you
just let it wash over you and then

just little things come to mind and.

Y you know, back to those magazine covers,
if, if we narrowly define beauty like

this, then it diminishes everything else.

So it creates ugliness in the process.

It's just a very simple thing.

Ah, that's good.

And, and yeah, and if we broaden
the idea of what's beautiful,

we get to experience more of it.

And then if we let go entirely of
notions of beauty and ugliness.

Well then maybe we see
things as they really are.

So alright, Sam.

Well it's been fun.

Well, that was another five
of the 10, 10,000 things.

Wow.

If we get together more
often, we'll have less to say.

Yes, exactly.

Exactly.

It's always a challenge, but, uh,
it's good to be back in the shed and.

yeah, it'll be a slightly
emptier tank next time I guess.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

but I'm glad we resolved the
Middle East and Eastern Europe.

And all forms of reactivity and,
and their own personal beefs.

Yes.

Trauma, all in the one episode.

And cultural and economic politics.

Yeah.

All, all address asteroids.

You're welcome Asteroids.

Don't worry about the asteroids,
don't worry about 'em.

Yeah, all dealt with, we direct, we,
we redirected one the DART NASA dart.

It's true expedition
redirected an asteroid.

So if one's coming, so we're playing
billiards with asteroids now everybody.

So Yeah.

You know things are good.

Yeah.

See you mate.

I see ya.