The Ten Thousand Things

Joe: There's reality,
which is loving awareness,

Sam: unconcerned by the arising
and passing away of phenomena.

Ali: And then there are the 10, 000

things.

Hello and welcome to the 10, 000
things, my name is Sam Ellis, I'm

Joe Loh, and I'm Ali Catramados.

Today on the show, having a mentee bee.

This is Ali Catramados phrase, the
menti bee, short for mental breakdown.

Yeah, I can't claim it,
it's what the kids call it.

It's a ripper.

Is it?

Yeah.

God bless the kids, whoever they are.

Ali representing the
under 40s on this show.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, so a couple of months ago you
mentioned this, that all your lady

friends are having mental breakdowns.

Well, I think collectively everybody's
having a bit of a mental breakdown.

Considering the current state of
affairs, I don't mind if we gender it

to begin with, though, because kind
of along the lines of our last ep

about, you know, where I revealed, you
know, I would rather cut an arm off

than like, ask someone for help, or
even just invite someone for a coffee.

That maybe we can gender this for a second
and say that women are more likely to text

a mate and say, I'm going to lose my shit.

I think we're better at reaching
out to our friends, I think, or to

our girlfriends for help, I do think
generally, than men are asking for

help, but to a point, to a point, yeah.

Not always.

Not always.

And you might, they might tell
you years later there was this

thing going on, you're like, oh my
God, you never even mentioned it.

But you've had like four or five
women friends or people you knew,

friends of friends, I think in
one or two cases, who were like...

Through an alignment of different
circumstances all at once we're just

like I'm gonna go and live in a motel
for a week Yeah, like it was really

very much like yeah, we're joking,
you know And being a middle aged white

woman my culture is astrology that
like, you know, Mercury's in retrograde

or something So something's going on
Venus retrograde happened recently.

Yeah, like yeah supermoons big Yeah,
all this, all this sort of stuff.

So I thought you were going to say
it was because of things happening

in the world, that there's a problem.

Astrologically, there's things happening
and that's why everyone's not coping.

But Joe, every time there's a
Mercury retrograde, bad things

do happen in the universe, Joe.

Aren't you paying attention?

So, but no, but, but what it feels
like and whether this is the current

economic, know, state of affairs, it's
everyone is, I mean, it's certainly

feeling The financial struggles at
the moment, even people who are,

you know, on pretty good money and
safe, secure jobs are struggling.

true.

So I think that that's compounding things.

I think post sort of, I think it is
a bit of a latent sort of post COVID.

Thank you so much for joining us today,
and we'll see you in the next one.

Bye.

Bye.

Bye.

Bye.

Bye.

Bye.

Bye.

Bye.

Bye.

Bye.

Bye.

Collectively, there's been all these
stresses that we potentially couldn't

and didn't process during COVID that are
all kind of catching up with us in this

very stressful economic sort of time.

And everyone is just not coping
or it's mercury retrograde,

whichever you want to believe.

But, um.

A whole bunch of straws got put on
camels and all the camels went, ehhh.

So the topic that I want to talk about.

That was the background, is
having a mental breakdown.

Well, you know, we're building up to that.

So let's talk about it.

Well, what I liked, I really liked
what one of the women said, which was

like, it was just like, I've moved out.

I'm in a, I'm in a motel.

Yeah.

I can't deal with anyone's stuff at all.

Yeah.

I'm just, I'm done.

I'm done.

I need a weekend off.

Yeah.

She actually just needed a weekend off.

She was just at the end of her tether
and I mean, god knows, I've had

moments like that too, where I'm just
like, I just don't want to be here.

Yeah.

And the, it's interesting, I've,
I've talked to many, like my

sister, my girlfriends, the,
the common shared fantasy.

is running away from your life.

Oh yeah.

For a, you know, just
for a period of time.

It's not that you don't love
your kids and your partner, or

your home and all those things.

It's just, it's all too much and you
just actually just need a break from it.

Like a genuine break of, from
caring about everybody else.

Doesn't sound like any of
those things that you said,

uh, astrological or economic.

It just sounds like middle age.

It's probably, but I think what alignment
of pressures, it's an alignment of

pressures, but I think it's, yeah,
like it's been compounded in this sort

of post COVID sort of world, I think.

And everything, yeah, like all of a
sudden, all right, everything's meant to

be back to normal, but everything doesn't
quite feel like it's back to normal.

Everybody's just not, it's been a
rough few, like if you, you know,

catching up with people, you know,
since COVID, the last, you know, how

have you been and how are you going?

It's been a rough trot.

That's, that's generally the thing I've
been sensing with a lot of people my age.

Like it's, it's been a rough few
years or it's been, it's been a hard

year or this has not been my year.

That's the thing I'm consistently hearing.

Yeah, that's right.

And it's good.

It's good.

People can do it.

And I think by going to the motel, she
actually prevented a nervous breakdown,

which is, you know, more the case.

So, and then has anyone
you know had one lately?

Well, I mean, I know, um, I know
someone else who has decided to

take some extended time off work in
order to prevent a mental breakdown.

Um, because that's
where they were heading.

I.

Yeah, like, and people taking mental
health days from work just to, you

know, so work is usually the thing
they can put on hold in a practical

sense because you can't necessarily
put caring for kids on hold.

yeah, trying to, and, and people trying
to recenter themselves and taking that

space in a preemptive kind of way.

I mean, I've certainly
tried to do those things.

I'm also outside of work, like without
taking time off work, but like with my

time off being able to actually dedicate
time, my time off to myself in order to

recharge, unplug properly, like really
actually schedule that time in because

that's usually the first thing to go.

And I think that's the problem is
we've, it's the first thing to go.

And so then we're not
taking care of ourselves.

We're just taking care of everything else.

And that's when it all becomes too much.

And if we've the prop, I had a
really wise colleague years and

years ago and she said, you cannot.

Drink from an empty cup.

You need to fill your cup up, Alex.

And like, that was the thing
that she, yeah, like what are

the things that fill my cup up?

And, you know, and so over the years
and with therapy and actually, you

know, I have a list of things like,
you know, you know, going for hikes,

going camping, you know, a complicated
cooking project on the weekend.

Something like that is something
that gives me joy and, and.

Fills my cup up so that I have
something to draw on when I

need it for everything else.

That's right.

And the thing I think we haven't
had is the opportunities to

fill our cup up over Covid.

Yes.

And so we're all running on empty and
that's, and like, and for me this year,

like my back, I've injured my back.

Yeah.

And so not being able to, to go camping
or go on the hikes, Has actually been

like, well, how am I, I'm needing
to learn different ways to recharge.

I'm guessing even some days you might not
have had been able to have a walk even.

No.

Yeah, yeah.

No, I've, I've literally been
bedridden, so it's been, and that

seems restful, but it's not when
you're feeling frustrated No.

That you're not actually doing the
things you want to, you feel like

you're just missing out and so, yeah.

Oh yeah.

And you can be, I read an
article recently, like.

You know, you take that week off,
but you don't manage to mentally

separate yourself from what's going on.

And then you're still burnt out and
yeah, it's like taking the holiday

and then going straight back to work.

And you're like, I don't feel like
that was, that was just exhausting.

Cause I've just, you know,
traveled and dragged my ass.

Yeah.

I did all this stuff.

I just stressed in a different place.

I felt the pressure to be enjoying
it and get the maximum value from

all this money I've spent that I
don't really have and all that sucks.

And then, but I remember.

like my first proper mental breakdown was
kind of it was brought on by a range of

pressures all occurring at the same time
but funnily enough money wasn't really

one of them and it was sort of none of
this kind of stuff that weighs on people

our age now not really it was coming it
was something way more fundamental but

all that stuff is fundamental of course
if you say well it can be a great well

i can imagine it'd be a great source
of uh comfort to people, to like, have

people to care for, and um, I'm not
going to speak for anybody else, but

certainly having other people to count
on, and for them to count on me, and

to like, have a role to play in their
lives, that's very important to me now.

But in my 20s, yeah, no one to really
depend on me, and yet, I think there

was a, there's an echo of the same sort
of thing of like, I had a girlfriend.

But we were in love and I thought, yep,
you know, this is it for the, for the time

being and you know, everything's great
and I'm about to start uni, it's all good.

I think just like, no, I thought it was
very different, but no, just like all the

people you've discussed, one of the things
that tipped me over the edge was a sudden

panic because of trauma, childhood, you
know, going to boarding school at a young

age and you know, a bunch of things and
my mum being sick with cancer at the time.

That, all of a sudden I felt this
nausea and this, I was appalled at the

thought that love could just go away.

Who's to say I won't remain, who's to
say I'll remain in love with this person?

Who's to say, years later right,
what I really learnt about all

that was, just very recently
in therapy, the thought wasn't.

Can I love them?

That's what I thought it was about.

And that's part of it.

The other part was I actually didn't,
and right up until quite recently,

had no real trust in others to be
there and continue to be there.

And so it was, I was, it was
coming, I had this guilt, I

won't be there for that person.

And I'll put my hand up.

I'll be the first to say some of
the worst times in my life were

when I felt like I was being a bad.

Boyfriend.

Like, that I was failing
to love this person.

I was putting this distance
there and I didn't know why.

And the guilt of that.

But until more recently,
I didn't understand.

It was also because I didn't feel I
could, I could be depend, that I could

depend on myself to look after that
other person, that I could depend on

myself to look after me and that that
other person would actually stick around.

Had no belief in that.

So that was the thing that tipped
me twice into a nervous breakdown.

The first time it was very profound
and I spent weeks with like, um.

Just what you'd call, you know,
panic attacks and, you know,

chronic high anxiety and like
very frequent panic attacks.

And eventually under those conditions,
you stop sleeping and eating,

then you can't keep food down.

And then so you just, you, and
eventually, you know, you start

to get delusion and psychosis.

So that's what happened.

And, you know, and then I caught, I
finally threw in the towel and caught

the train back to, you know, the country.

And my mum picked me up at Geelong station
and all of a sudden it all just drained

out of my body and then I could just eat
something and then went back to the family

home and just kind of slept for a while.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Slowly staged a recovery.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, it's, it's, um, it's, yeah, it's
quite similar to me that, yeah, there was.

I mean, I can only really count
like one major one in recent history

and where I ended up in hospital.

And yeah, and it was because
it was compounding factors.

It wasn't just one thing.

There was work stresses, relationship
stresses, you know, life stresses.

We were in the pandemic
and it just, and then.

Like as, and I think I've used this
example before, it's like you're trying

to hold a beach ball underwater and at
some point your arms are going to get

tired from hot pushing that down and
that's when it's going to Come back and

smack you in the face and that's when it's
like, okay now deal with some childhood

trauma And that's what happened for me
It was like all the childhood trauma and

everything just bubbled up because and as
my psych said yeah, your arms get tired

Your bandwidth You know, to normally be
able to keep a whole control over that

over the years has, you know, things
will put pressure on it, but you've

been able to keep it under control.

But now it's just been too
much, too much, too soon.

You're going to have to
deal with this as well.

Now it's unfortunately the reality of it.

And so, yeah, being in hospital
forced me for six weeks to actually

just take a really solid sleep.

You know, you know, rest,
recharge, I didn't have to think

about cooking or cleaning or all
those caring responsibilities.

It was just a place to rest, do therapy,
and you know, get the medication right.

And that's Yeah, and I think in that
way, I think a Menti B or like a mental

breakdown is actually a really, a great
way to reset and redirect, and they're

actually a very necessary process.

It's very clarifying.

Yes.

Yeah.

You don't, you don't do
it because you're weak.

You do it because you've been too
strong, in inverted commas, for

too long, too strong for too long.

Then you'll have a Menti B.

Yeah.

That's, I mean, that's.

It's that breakdown or breakthrough.

Yes.

Yeah.

And, and I think, and breakdown is the
only way to do it often because people

cannot give themselves permission to say
no or fuck this or whatever they need

to, whatever change they need to do.

And I'm speaking for myself here, could
not just draw the line on whatever.

And, and that's what it's led to.

It's like rite of passage stuff.

Sometimes you have to have a mentee
be, break down, breakthrough.

Yeah.

Um, my one, I had one at 19, which was a
coming of age and then I became an adult.

And I had one at 35, which was
the end of my relationship, and

then I stopped drinking alcohol
and it changed my entire life.

But you wouldn't have had the
sobriety move without, you had to

go into the breakdown first, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I think I'm strong at the moment,
and I'm glad I went through those

breakdowns and saw what I saw,
although psychosis is terrifying.

Yeah.

It is.

But I think something what
Ali said at the start.

I think it's worth framing
the pressures on people.

I've been thinking about this
lately, it's not post COVID, forget

about COVID, it's ancient history.

It's about, it's about something else.

I think it's about, and there's
some positivity in this.

Yeah.

The boomers are gonna start dying out.

From Gen X down, so our age
and a little bit older, down.

We've got the, what we've,
we're left with what we're left

with to make the best of it.

Yeah.

Now, a couple of things.

Are they going to get a little bit worse
or a lot worse, they're not going to get

much better and that is climate change.

It's either going to get a little
bit worse or a lot worse, and the

geopolitical situation is either going
to get a little bit worse or a lot worse.

But those two things will get worse.

Uh, and they're real things
to worry about, I think.

Um, but, to find sanity, I have
to focus on my own little life.

And now then there's the economic
pressures of going into a recession and

contradictions of capitalism and all that.

But, actually...

That stuff doesn't keep me up
at night or stress me out much.

The other, those two big,
scary things, big and scary.

But what I was going to say is,
there used to be narratives.

For the boomers era there was narratives
whether it was around socialism or like

the hippie movement or Just a narrative
of progress even in the 50s and 60s,

you know, I Don't think we should
replace the complete breakdown of all

narratives with some other narrative.

I think we need to focus on Our little
communities and our little mm hmm

the processes in our little lives.

Agreed.

Yeah, because the world is ours
now The boomers will be gone.

That's right.

And we've got to make the best
of this planet that's going to

be having, the conditions will be
harder for human life, clearly.

Yep.

And there could be big
fucking wars, right?

Possibly, yeah.

Um, so...

The possibility has
always been there, yeah.

Yeah, it's just ramping up a bit,
you know, again, potentially.

I mean, there's a few people like
Xi Jinping where you'd have to be

able to read his mind to know...

How bad things could get for a place
like Australia, and we can't read his

mind, so we don't know, but totally
we're at the mercy of a few decisions

in a few foreign capitals, right?

Now, I find that stuff terrifying.

But what I'm dropping is the
illusion that I can control it

by reading about it non stop.

And the illusion that actually
there is any action I can do in

the world on that particular one.

And there may not even be anything to
be gained from understanding any of it.

Yeah, but that's the stuff that will
drive me to having a mental breakdown.

If I think about the conditions of
the world, the fact that we went

through the pandemic, the fact that,
you know, it costs more to buy some

cheese at the supermarket doesn't,
doesn't factor in for just for me.

Okay.

Well, that's, that's interesting.

I do think those things
will eat away at people.

Um, well they, they clearly
are, they clearly are.

Yeah.

And, and, and, and I'm not to say, not
to dismiss what you're saying and like.

So that you know people are described
financial pressure to like the majority

of their problems that that Maybe there
aren't other things they should be

thinking about or could be thinking about.

Like, I agree with that, and certainly...

But the financial stuff is just
the day to day, and it becomes

the outlet for the stress.

It does, yeah, it does.

And it becomes a thing to
measure as well, because, yeah.

Yeah, but actually these
stressors are things like,

having a kid with autism, or...

Yes, or not having enough time
for your partner, or not having

enough time for your kids.

Yeah, not having enough energy for...

What I'm saying is...

Where my head has always been is
in the clouds with the big threats.

Yeah.

Going right, zooming right out
to like an asteroid hitting

the earth and killing everyone.

Or whatever, or all the
people that occupy themselves.

with an obsession with whether
we're in a simulation or not.

And like, that's their way
of kind of abstracting.

Cause I, I think there's a double edged
thing here, Joe, like thinking about

geopolitics or epistemology or ontology.

Do we even exist?

And is this simulation?

All that?

Will Xi Jinping do this?

We'll put and do that.

To me, those things are all alike.

They cannot be resolved and
they're beyond your control.

So it's actually safe to think
about them in a strange way.

It's just a crisis, but whether you're
thinking about it on a macro level or a

micro level and it's a lack of control
and anxiety is a lack of control.

And that's what it essentially is.

It's a lack of control of the big issues.

Like, yeah, whether it is.

Global, you know, instability
and climate change, or yeah, I

can't pay my bills this week.

It's still a lack of control over the
situation, and that's what's causing

you anxiety, and I think yeah, it
obviously manifests in different ways

for different people, but collectively
there are always going to be these

existential threats that, you know, I
guess to tie it all together, what I'm

saying is Us now taking over the world.

The boom is dying out.

Part of our community might be,
Oh, such and such is off there

having a mentee B for this week.

We're going to help look after
their kids because they need

to have a full breakdown.

But we know that in a month they're
going to be more useful than they

were, have been for the last year
while they're barely hanging on.

So we can, we might make, just
like we might make psychedelic

experience as part of our daily life.

Or, you know, therapeutic practice.

We might make mental breakdowns
part of how we deal with the wave

of pressures that we're under that,
you know, for the most part, boomers

just didn't have to deal with.

Yeah, that's right.

And the only thing that may be
easing, well, one of the things we

do have in common with them, I think,
is that there was a geopolitical

situation they had to deal with.

But also, Annual leave, taking of
annual leave has gone down since their

time, but it is, but it is fair to
say that there were a lot of boomers

who People saw themselves as having
an obligation to donate 60 hours of

their time every week and that that was
just normal and that they shouldn't be

taking more than a week off in a year.

And so I think there were a lot of
them that saw that as normal and just

plugged away in that way for years.

Maybe one of the things that changed
because of the pandemic was a

feeling that that was a normal or
acceptable thing to ask of people.

And I think, and like, as you said in
the intro, and to be fair to you, Joe,

yes, geopolitics Has the potential
to give me a nervous breakdown.

Absolutely.

If I, if I focused on it too much, that
possibility does exist, but you were

saying earlier about all the women,
you know, dealing with the pressure

from their jobs and not saying men
aren't experiencing this as well.

And I'm putting my hand up for it.

And you know, and we're talking about
good jobs and this pay and that sort of

paid not, not so long ago on the show.

And I was just thinking to myself, there's
just no such thing as a good job, you

know, and like, and, and shout out to
all the small business owners out there.

Cause there's, Hardly any small business
people that have got a sustainable

thing on their plate right now either.

And so yeah, I just feel a lot of
sympathy for all the people just being

asked by the two major supermarkets.

Um, who own, you know, the fuel and
the pokies and the hardware and just

basically own the distribution channels
in the whole country and are causing

truck drivers to crash into school
buses and all of those motherfuckers

that are just taking the piss and just
adding a little 1% whenever they can,

just ratcheting up, just ratcheting up.

Ah, they'll keep taking it.

Ah, they'll keep taking it,
but I think you're right, Joe.

Menti B is often the only way it can
happen, and I'm actually almost regretting

the number of people that have done
the right, the smart self care thing

and prevented it from happening, saw it
coming and prevented it from happening.

I'm going to make a proposal
to everybody, stop doing that.

Hang on until you lose it, and
get that stress leave paid.

Yeah, well, because,
yeah, psychological leave.

Yeah, because this is like, yeah, like
you said, there's no job that's good.

What there is, is there is a level of...

Tolerability.

Some jobs are more tolerable than
others and what is happening...

Some workplaces will actually respond
a little bit Yeah, make adjustments

to your workload or more flexibility,
you know, like under the guise of...

Just to make things just slightly
more tolerable so that you don't...

Just to keep you hanging on, and that's
a really sad state of events, you know,

to be in, and I think if, yeah, if,
again though, those are some things we

just don't have a lot of control over,
because we're all forced to pay rent

and mortgages and things like that, so.

That's one of the things pinning us down.

Exactly, so.

While we're all forced to
be a part of that system.

Mm-hmm.

. And it's about finding, I
suppose, a workplace that is

tolerable to your levels of Yeah.

You know, stress and capacity, but
also the time outside of work mm-hmm.

To be also tolerable.

Be, and, and the, the, the
day-to-day stresses of your

relationships, your kids mm-hmm.

Commuting.

Yeah.

Or, you know, all of those commitments
that they don't become intolerable.

It's when it all becomes, It's
completely intolerable that yeah, we

can't, we don't, we're not coping.

And so yeah, whether it's, I mean,
I've been, like I said, fortunate in

that now post actual breakdown when
I've seen I'm not coping, it's about

actually taking a step back and going,
okay, I have to take this off my plate.

I have to take, I have
to pair things back.

And I did say this to Joe actually really
recently, you know, given all the stuff

I've gone through this year, I'm actually
making a very conscious decision that this

next season of my life or spring, the next
few months, I'm actually pairing things.

Right back, you know, taking the things
off my plate that I just don't have

to do, or I'm not forced to do, in
order to be able to get through it,

because my bandwidth at the moment...

So, you know, rather than just keep
pushing through and pushing through and

going, okay, I've just, I've got my annual
leave booked, which is what I used to do.

It'd be like, I've got my
annual leave booked in.

I'll just push through, push
through, push through, push through.

And then by the time I annually
finally comes up, my body will

just give up and I'll get sick.

That's it.

And I'll be so stressed.

I don't enjoy it.

And, and it's just this cycle of that.

And I'm like, actually, I want
to be in a good space to enjoy

my annual leave this year.

I don't want to be sick again.

I would like to just have.

You know, some time off from work to rest
and do the things I actually enjoy doing

and yeah, but actually that process needs
to start way before you actually do it.

You can't just skip, like the joke with
my girlfriends and even my sister were

like, I'm going to schedule in my Menti B.

It's like I'm scheduling it in for my
time off and we're very used to Like,

not taking that on company time when we
should be having the psychological leave.

You should be losing your
shit on company time.

Yeah, you should be, you should
be doing it then and, and, and, I

mean, it's very hard to, but yeah.

Well, the thing that's preventing us
is if I'm the squeaky wheel, the system

will throw me on the pile, but I put it
to you, we've reached a tipping point.

Literally, within the self and
within the group, the larger

group that we all belong to.

Margaret Thatcher said there's no such
thing as society, only individuals, right?

And if we stay in that kind
of thinking, Margaret Thatcher

was an exemplary Marxist.

She understood class warfare in intimate
detail and knew exactly how to wage it.

when she said that, it struck a lot
of people as disgusting because we

still, even A lot of right wingers
still had a collectivist feeling.

Fast forward 40 years from her
saying that, and we're there.

We're not a society.

We're individuals.

Well, that's what it feels like.

Yes.

But that's purely an illusion.

Society's there.

If you want it.

War is over if you want it.

And if when you realize, I'm not
the only one feeling this way.

Everybody's feeling this way.

I don't use the word society.

I use the word community.

That's the better one.

And I'm not a Marxist like you.

Circle.

And I don't think what you two are
talking about whinging about work

and And getting dodgy time off.

I don't think that's the answer.

No, no, it's not dodgy.

delegitimize it.

If I've been through two mental
breakdowns and both of them were a

clarifying crisis, which made me grow
and made me a stronger, clearer person.

I'm speaking up in favor of them.

What if society's going
through a collective crisis?

Agreed.

And it's a clarifying crisis.

Agreed.

So this is my...

So it relies on people
being honest about this.

That's what I'm saying.

It's actually for our generation.

Not that we live in some kind of utopia
ever, although some AI people will

say that maybe that can come about.

Of course.

But the hope is that we have some
good days amongst the shitty days.

Yeah.

And we have some great moments, and we
have some highs amongst the lows, but

we drop a narrative of everything's
great or everything's terrible.

No, I agree with that.

And we just focus, and the word that
keeps coming back to me is community,

which can be a cricket club or...

Your, um, you know, whatever.

No, I agree completely.

Like, it seems small beer.

I think the stuff you're talking about
is very small beer, like take a few

days stress leave, who gives a fuck?

No, no, no, no, no, no, I'm talking
about The cricket club seems small beer

too, but it's actually not, because No,
I'm talking about That's where, we're

not individuals, we're a collective.

Agreed.

Sport is one of the last
places where you see that.

So, that But it's a strong
culture in Australia.

Agreed, no, that's why I don't shit on it.

It's very important.

There's a number of people that
would not be alive today if it wasn't

for community sport, like 100%.

Like, I don't dismiss it at all.

I used to.

I used to be that kind
of inner city artist.

Yeah, yeah, like you want to
shut down the local golf course

and turn it into housing.

Fuck golf.

I played a round of golf yesterday.

No, look, it's fine.

Okay, golf is fine.

Can it somehow, can we have golf and
it occupies one percent of the...

Public land that it currently occupies.

Can we have that?

Oh, can't be done?

Oh well, I guess golf gets the arse.

How about people just have
a little bit of fun, Sam?

Uh, anyway, that's a sidetrack.

No, no, 100%.

But look, that's what, look.

Speaking up in favor of community
and at the same time speaking

up in favor of, I'm not talking
three days of stress leave here.

This is like significant time
off to rest and recharge.

Yes.

It would sound great for the
economy for people to be not

going to work but getting paid.

You're already all staying home and
getting paid, which blows my mind.

On the contrary.

Someone has to go to the workplace.

On the contrary.

It's good for the economy.

Yeah.

Because you'll be a
better, you will be better.

And more well adjusted and rested
to be able to be a better employee.

It actually makes sense.

But your conditions are getting
better, both of you work from home

a few days a week, like come on!

No, I'm doing the five.

Yeah, but, but can I say this?

Come on though, like, this is actually
the area where things are improving.

Yes, no, in some ways, but it doesn't
change the fact that there's a feeling

of like, in Ali's case, from home or not.

It's not a burden you can carry
successfully every day, every week.

It totally is, and it's a lesser
burden than it used to be for most

people in the history of humanity.

No, but like the idea, okay, yeah,
you can work from home, great.

And it's been really, it makes it
so much more accessible for people

with disabilities and mental health.

Saves a fortune on commuting.

Commute, yeah, like traffic, like
there's so many benefits to it.

But what we're finding now is that...

Well, one, actually no.

Come back to the office.

Mm-hmm.

, because we have to justify middle
management's like existence.

Yeah.

because we don't Good luck to them.

Yeah.

Because we don't trust,
you know, people mm-hmm.

to be on their own.

There's also the pressure of being
at home and going, well, I don't

wanna feel like I'm taking the piss
I actually want, and so mm-hmm.

and putting unnecessary ex, you know?

Mm-hmm.

, like if, if Phil was in the office.

And doing less work, it would feel
not so bad because you, there's still

that level of presenteeism, whereas at
home, like, you know, you're just like,

okay, I have to be on all the time.

That is certainly a thing.

A lot of people experience.

It's actually blown some people's work
life balance completely out of the water.

Like it's blurred those lines
of, I'll just stay a little bit

longer because I'm not commuting.

I can finish that thing off and next
thing you've actually donated three or

four hours extra of your time to the
company rather than, happens all the time.

So there's pros and cons.

I'm not.

You know, I mean, so it doesn't just
saying, Oh, working from home is

easier is not actually and there are
people that are successfully taking

the piss while working from home.

Of course.

And when I say successfully, I
mean making it work for them.

But here's the thing, the number of
people who took the piss on campus,

like, and you know, Oh, there's a
person like always walking around the

office just, you know, who serially have
watched people do this over the years.

Like they might be just holding
something and just go up to each,

you know, little group of desks
to have a chat about a thing.

Yeah.

And then.

Yeah.

Literally wasted the half the day.

Time wasters and tyre kickers everywhere.

And they're not actually doing anything.

What's the whinge?

Because back in the 90s it was cute
and funny that everyone had pointless

office jobs and everyone slacked off.

No, it's not cute and funny.

It's an absolute tragedy.

It's a waste of life and time.

It's such a drain on human potential.

It's a tragedy and it's a farce.

It's the ultimate kind of
tragedy which is farce.

Right, and it's like, so I think.

A kind of clearing of some of the
dead wood, you know, like, can

we figure out a way to do that?

Because, you know, one of the things
that told me Elon Musk was tipping over

and that, you know, things were about
to slide was not a lot of the obvious

things people will point out, like calling
the cave rescuers, molesters or any of

the other alarming things he was doing.

let's set off nuclear devices on
the poles of Mars to kickstart

the terraforming of that planet.

No, none of that really obvious stuff.

The thing that, for me, got me really
thinking was when he said, Uh, okay,

everyone at Tesla, come back to
the office, or you can pretend to

work from home for somebody else.

And I was like, not only is that
incredibly tone deaf and is going

to absolutely give a whole lot of
your employees and a whole lot of

other people the shits, but also...

It shows a complete, you are a
gormless fool, I suddenly realised.

You think that because people are in
the office they're doing honest work.

You poor, poor fool.

How did you get this far in life?

Can you even read?

I know what he's saying though.

As someone who's never really worked from
home, I know exactly what he's saying.

Yeah, and he's trying to tap
into a certain kind of inverse

classism on your part, too.

It's like a common sense, I guess.

Because it's, I mean...

It's like a common sense, probably
a carpenter or a plumber would

look at someone from home going,
oh yeah, you're working, are ya?

But like...

That's the common sense side of it,
is like, you guys are slacking off.

But like...

Yeah, go on, go on, Ali.

I was going to say, with my
job, there's actually very...

the demonstrated output.

You can actually see it's tracked.

It has tracked the tasks
that are done and not done.

And I have been able to, and the reason
I've been able to negotiate working from

home is because my output from home.

The deliverables are so obvious.

It's so much, so much more significant.

You're actually a Menti B and how we deal
with the, some of the conditions that

we're under is that you've had physical
and mental health challenges this year.

But you've had a really good therapist
who you've now taking a break from

because you've processed it and actually
you're sitting here You're happy.

You're calm.

You're you know, you've you seem to
be just making enough money to get by

You're a good example of the answer
is probably therapy for most people

Yeah, for sure and the government in
Australia pays for 10 sessions for

Anyone who wants them, pretty much.

Well, therapies, yeah, but there's a gap.

It's part of it.

But there's a gap there for most people.

The thing is, you can go to therapy
and talk about your problems, but

if you're not actually then going
home and putting into place those

things, then it's a waste of time.

You're not actually doing much.

So, that's the doing the work part.

Yeah, the doing the work.

And now you're sitting here
and it's the start of spring.

And you've got a plan for
yeah, but you're pretty good.

Right.

Even though you're like worse than a lot
of people, the average person probably,

but what it is, is actually having
the time and space to do the doing.

And that's where people are feeling.

That's right.

They don't have the
capacity to do the doing.

And so that's what, so
nothing's then getting done.

It's that personal, it's
that personal work time.

That's getting pinched, I think.

And that's, what's leading
to these menti bees.

If you don't have the time and space to
actually do the work that you need to

do, because it's all very well and good.

The work of doing your three pages,
the work of running a bath, self

care, like, you know, self care.

That's the thing that
keeps the crisis at bay.

So that self care serves capitalism
because I agree with that.

The worker.

And it drives consumption.

It's like, it's like radiohead.

It's like fitter,
happier, more productive.

That's self care to me.

Yes.

Agreed.

But the thing is, if you're, that's
been chiseled away and you'd no longer

have your job, the circumstances are so
intolerable and you can't then actually

do the self care, you're going to
crack because it is not, you're drawing

from an, you know, an empty well.

That's it.

Yeah.

That's exactly right.

And, and also the self care thing,
it's really pointing us away from.

The other thing that, you know, can be
so helpful in healing and also give us

resilience and sustenance and make our
lives bearable and sustainable and, and

meaningful, which is community, right?

And, you know, so self care steers
us away from that community idea and

towards something that's a little bit
more consumption based a lot of the time.

Now, having said that, I'm in favor of.

The really important and
effective self care, i.

e.

the three pages, or the meditation,
or, you know, the stuff that's

actually, you know, effective.

But I think self care can
also include community.

I mean, it certainly has...

And hobbies.

Yeah, hobbies and those sorts of, those
are the things that are very much that

fall by the wayside that I've, you know...

Like it's all very well and good
to say, Oh, you're sitting here

and you're doing well, which I feel
like 10 hours of telly is not so.

Yeah, exactly.

And I feel like what I've done and
I've really made conscious choices.

Like I said, the last, however long
to build those things into my life.

And that includes community,
making sure I see my friends,

making sure I, you know, you know.

getting some sort of exercise or walking
or whatever that all the things things

that you know, don't cost anything.

It's not necessary a consumption thing.

It's just that time.

And that's meant taking time.

That's the time that's getting pinched.

That's the time getting pinched from work.

And I've actually reduced my hours
at work in order to facilitate that.

And I mean, that's a privilege
because not, and that's the thing.

A lot of people.

You know, it means you're not
saving, but yeah, exactly.

And so in this current, you know, economic
crisis, people who just don't have that

option, they just don't have that option
to pull back from work a little bit.

The first thing that goes
is a walk with a mate.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Like, you're like, I'm
too tired to do that.

Or volunteering, volunteering at the,
the junior sports, like that, that goes.

Yep.

Yeah.

Or like, you know, yeah.

Going on the committee for the, this or
the, that, like, and that's the stuff

that while it's an output of energy.

It involves you, implicates you with
other people, and that's sustainable.

But this working longer hours, and
instead they've got more time at home,

working from home, and working less hours.

No, no, no, that's not what's
happening, that's not what's happening.

You've mentioned this before on the
show, it's like you guys can't, I mean

we're not an empirical show that backs
things up with stats, but you guys are

just vibing this, and there's no...

No, no, no, no, no, no.

Okay.

There's no graph showing me that
people in Australia are working heaps

more hours and losing family time.

I want to be clear.

People are taking less annual leave.

They might have meaningless jobs,
but they're not working more.

My work, no, my work life balance, just
to be clear right now is, is perfect.

It's fine.

But I do know a lot of people, no, but
I know, but I know a lot of people that

are actually doing more of that blurred
work time thing in the evening or early

in the morning, or sometimes they like.

Like, I've got a friend who was
recently, like, he said, oh,

I've fallen into this routine.

I couldn't work out why I
couldn't reach him at certain.

Just normal times that I could.

And eventually he went, Oh no, I've
been like falling asleep after dinner

and then waking up and doing a few
hours work and then going back to bed.

And I'm like, that's completely fucked.

You've got to stop doing that.

And he said, yeah, I'm going to have to go
to the office in order to regulate this.

Yeah, no, I was, I'm not saying go to
the office bad, but yeah, no, I was,

I very much have that experience too
of like after work, the amount that

I've put in for variety of reasons.

That as soon as I log off, even though
I don't have then the commute home,

instead of commuting in traffic, I'm
laying down because my brain is exhausted.

And like I've, there's been plenty of
times where I've said I'm gonna have

to have a lay down after work and Yeah.

And I've lost those three or four hours
that, that I'm not actually doing.

I'm not doing the self care.

I'm not seeing my friends.

I'm not, and it's just
an exhausting burnout.

That's what it is.

And people are burnt out.

And it's that time that we are
putting into work in a different way.

I think the expectations and
pressures, whether, you know,

yeah, whether you have the commute
or not is still very much there.

And there are some companies that are
like progressive in quotes that have

incorporated this into their policies.

And in some cases, it's
actually been done meaningfully.

So it's actually done where
they've required people to have.

A voluntary capacity somewhere, um, local
community or, you know, some global NGO

or whatever, but to have a thing where
they're volunteering and that's built into

company time and they have to do it and
they have to prove that they've done it.

And that's kind of an interesting thing.

And then there's others that have
created mandatory personal project

time and you know, there's, there's
all kinds of things like that.

And I would stress that while these
things do, can have benefits to workers,

um, and people, they're not workers,
they're people, but on the other

hand, it is, these are, measures are
also designed to prevent the crisis.

That's part of what it is.

And some companies have brought in So
you're saying It's a business plan.

Like, yes You prefer people to have, who
votes for people having mental breakdowns

and who votes for people Well Stopping
short, keeping it together, looking

after their kids What I vote for is
revealing the dysfunction in the system.

Having said that, if peop and when
I So, when we talk about having

a mental breakdown on this show,
what you really want to talk

about is a crisis in It's both.

I mean, I think I can't, can't
separate the crisis in the system from

the crisis individuals are facing.

The system is a general term for not
just the economic system, but the set

of norms and the set of social relations
and the set of cultural ideas and all

of that stuff, all one big package.

And it's not serving people very
well at the moment, or maybe people

have always been having mentee bees.

Of course they have.

What I'm hopeful about is that people
are more open about it now, and I think

there's a tipping point where I think
people can feel safer doing it, because

I think the anxiety that lay under it
for me every time I had one of these

episodes and had to just withdraw from
society, I can think of one time when it

was bad, and then the other two where it
was like, oh no, I'm good, I just kind of

need a week of nothing, and I'm not good.

I feel terrible and I'm going to
lose it and I'm starting to feel

delusional and yeah, I'm going
to withdraw from everything for

a week and then I'll be okay.

But there was a fear every time I
did that, that I wouldn't re enter,

that I wouldn't be accepted again.

And that by, and I think, imagine for
people who were like, not like just

some kind of joker in his twenties who
no one really had any high expectations

of, but imagine being a high performer.

And you are holding it
together for a lot of people.

Imagine this feeling of shame and
humiliation that you experience.

Thank you then do the right thing, which
I firmly believe it is the right thing, to

put your hand up and going, Hi everyone.

I'd just like to say I'm on the edge
of sanity and I've actually tipped.

Yeah, I'm not coping.

I need some help.

And I'm, and I'm out.

I do think.

And you drop the mic and you go.

Systems not working for me.

At the moment, I'm out.

I do think we are getting better.

It's like coming out with
your sexuality or whatever.

Yeah, we're much better
at talking about...

This is the thing about moving on from the
boom is the fact that we have a podcast

where we've all got a mental illness.

Right?

We don't talk about mental illness that
much on the show because we talk about

it's not like bleeding the idea for this
show and the one that I tried to do I

think it's I tried to do a show before
this show with another bipolar guy and

what I'm interested in is not meant
talking about mental illness which is

what a lot of like awareness days and
all that stuff was all about let's talk

about mental being in it yeah what I'm
interested in is what the three crazy

people want to talk about Oh yeah.

No.

'cause when I was in the psych
ward, people don't talk about

mental illness that much.

They talk about a lot.

They, they talk about geopolitics.

Reality.

Reality.

What exactly, you know,
changing pings up to.

Yeah.

That's it.

And that's what crazy
people are obsessed with.

A hundred percent.

So this show is about getting, but
the fact that we have this show

and that people listen, I think
that's the cultural shift, is

that we've changed their cultural
environment and it's changing rapidly.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

so that if someone goes down with a
mental breakdown, People, I think,

will be a lot more accepting than
they would have been back in the

corporate days of the 50s and 60s.

I really hope that's
true, and I think it is.

I think it is!

Like even the last 20 years, like I
know, like when I said I've only had

the one breakdown, it's not necessarily
that I've only had one breakdown.

It's the one serious one.

It's the one serious one where I got help.

There were definitely times when I
was younger where I wasn't coping,

and like you just withdrew, and it's
like, okay, I'll have a week or so off.

Try and figure it out and muddle it
through, you know, and yeah, being really

high functioning, you know, for a better
term, um, but yeah, like it's because

it was so much shame and embarrassment
and stigma that I've let everybody down

because I normally can do all these
things, but also that everyone will think

I'm a fuck up and they won't want to hang
out with me, exactly, and it's just, okay,

like, yeah, so it's just like, I'll figure
it out on my own for a bit and like, and

it's just putting like a little band aid
on a little You know, on a cut that's just

getting, turning into a bigger, festering
wound and like, yeah, you just, instead

of like, yeah, letting it turn into that,
you know, and then it being, you know,

it's like sort of just fixing it as it
goes and taking those times, putting

those things in place as we go so that
hopefully, even if we do have to reset

occasionally, it's not as big a reset.

I refer to them almost...

Mini breakdowns Yeah,
mini breakdowns, yeah.

I do refer to these guys almost
every episode, but Alain de Botton

in School of Life, write about
that it's a good idea to have...

A full mental breakdown.

Yeah, I agree with you.

And he wrote, they write beautifully
about it actually, that like,

this is the time when you are just
gonna completely lose your shit.

And it's like, and on the other
side, and it's what people don't

realize when they're going into
it, that on the other side, they'll

come out better and stronger.

But that's a little, it
doesn't happen to everyone.

You can have a mental breakdown
and kill yourself, or you can

have a mental breakdown and never
really quite recover, right?

Yes, that does happen.

But, what I've seen mostly, in my
own experience as well, I had a

mini one in Vietnam a month ago.

Yeah, yeah, you did.

is, they're clarifying.

They, they, move you towards
some kind of strength that you

didn't quite know that you had.

And it forces you to drop
things you can't hold.

The government plays an important
role because you need, I need the

support of a psych ward, uh, medication
subsidised, ideally a psychiatrist

and a psychologist, and all that I
need the government to help pay for.

So in a poorer place, which is
most of the world, you're not

going to have most of that.

So, I'm incredibly privileged, and we are
in Australia, it's a good place to have a

mental breakdown, I'd highly recommend it.

but look, let's wrap it
up, any closing thoughts?

Uh, well, yeah, look, I'm not, I'm
not saying you're wrong earlier about,

you know, I mean I think sometimes
Ali and I do, do get into the white

collar whinge, it is true, it is true.

but I think I want to
be very clear about...

You know, the fact that, for example,
you're right, for a carpenter, for a

bricklayer, for a hospoworker, which
I was for many years, I want to remind

everybody, I was black collar, that's
what I call it, for 20 years, and, you

know, call centres, labour hire, um,
agency work, you know, dishes, coffee,

food, floor, bar, people, people, people,
solve, solve, solve, labour, labour,

like, manual labour the time, but also
Quite a lot of mental and emotional burden

in those jobs, I eventually realised.

Um, and that, you know, so I've got
complicated feelings about work.

I believe in the dignity of work,
the usefulness of work for people.

I also have seen how it will
strip people of dignity and

that it can lack usefulness.

And, you know, I've seen the
good and the bad side of it.

And so I don't want to shit on
every last employer out there

and every last workin Joe.

Absolutely not.

And also, you're right,
carpenters and bricklayers can't.

Obscure their productivity
or lack of it, right?

So that's a privilege that a working
person like that doesn't have.

And yes, there are white collar
workers that can get away with stuff,

but I would just like to declare
there's very few good jobs, if any.

I just want to say that.

I came to the same conclusion
talking to people now in the...

Let's not create a false divide
between privileged white collar and...

Yeah, yeah, someone who has quite a well
paid government job said there's a reason

why Monday feels worse than Friday.

Yeah You know, this is not a new
concept, but it was a reminder.

They wouldn't pay you if they
needed, if they didn't need to.

Yeah, exactly.

Because I'm casting around, do I
change careers or whatever and, and

It's great and clarifying to realize
all jobs suck just in different ways.

Yeah, yeah, and I know what in
what ways my film job sucks, and

I know in what ways it's great.

The other stuff I'm looking at,
you dig into it, and it becomes

pretty obvious what's gonna
suck and what's gonna be good.

So yeah, and realism, but to drop the
idea that they tell you when you're

18, you leave high school, that
there's some great job out there.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, it's like you're probably
not gonna work at the UN.

No, I mean, you might have like
a really difficult colleague or

difficult interpersonal relationships.

You've got to navigate every job.

Like even if you have your dream
job, there is still going to be

something that's not great about it.

There's going to be a, some aspect
of it that's going to bring you

stress and, or, you know, and I
do not dream of labor, darling.

Yes.

Yeah.

So yeah, it's, I think, I just
don't think, yeah, like we can.

Exclude the system or the like, as in,
you know, where Sam and I talk, you

know, we do have the white collar whinge.

I just don't think we can't, we
can exclude the impact that that

does have on the, your mental
health and your mental wellbeing.

And so they are inextricably.

You know, I'm just representing the
listener who might be like rolling

their eyes a little bit about users.

That's entirely fair.

And there'll be some, there's Sam and
Ali fans and there's Joe fans, maybe.

Yeah, I think so.

Yeah, definitely.

So, I don't know, it's my honest opinion
that it's fine to analyse the system.

Yeah.

But watch out, because you're probably
going to head into, You know, Neil

from Young Ones or whatever his name
is, Vivian, you know, territory.

Yeah.

So watch out for that.

Both apply.

If you're not specific about what you're
talking about and when you get specific

and it doesn't sound that bad to me,
then I'm going to call you out on it.

No, no, I get that.

But it's, it's one of the ways that the
whole thing is kept in place is that, for

example, the white collar worker can, can
shit on tradies and they can, they can,

it's socially acceptable to, You know,
to whinge about how tradies are a bunch

of jerks who make too much money, that's
socially acceptable and it's, and for

the tradies, it's socially acceptable for
them to say that anyone who doesn't stack

a brick is a completely useless wanker.

And like, that's one of the things
that keeps the workers apart.

And it's a, and it's a similar dynamic,
almost in, dare I say it, racialized,

almost semi racialized dynamic where,
you know, there's, The blue collar, white

collar, and as I brought in the black
collar, the hospitality trades, uh, if

we're not careful, they're turning into
caste ideas and, you know, turning into

kind of reified concepts of, like, the
relative worth of this person versus

that person, which is more of the kind of
stuff that causes people to have mental

breakdowns, because there I was thinking
I was a progressive person who saw through

the illusions of the system, man, but
the truth is, like, I was just a subject.

To those, as anybody, and still am.

And, like, that's, that's, that's
part of what prevents people

from doing the proper breakdown.

Because they have swallowed the notion
whole, as I had, that we were individuals.

There was no such thing as society.

And whether you believed that
out loud or not, it's actually

behind a lot of your actions.

And that if I allow myself to be
vulnerable in this way, that I

won't be accepted back into society.

Like, I think.

That's how a lot of people feel.

And so I think you've offered
the most useful thought here,

Joe, is what I'm saying.

If something, if this happens to
someone around you, like, don't

do the thing where you, you want
to stay away in case you catch it.

No, no, move towards
it, like be around that.

Yeah.

Send them off to the motel.

All right, let's finish up.

I think what was interesting today is
that we went to talk about mentibes

and ended up talking about work.

Oh, we do it all the time, I think
that says something about us.

It does.

Yeah.

Like I said, the pressures for most
people are those daily pressures.

The pressures are for me, are
stuff in, is things in the news.

Sure.

And that's just, it's clarifying
for me to realize that.

I'm unusual in that way.

I get it, yeah, it is, it is.

But, But what it means is I have
to be a little bit more open.

if it's not World War 3, that
doesn't mean it doesn't matter.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the
mental trick that I've always done.

It's like, well, let's see.

It's bad, but it's not World War 3.

Anything short of death itself and World
War 3 and asteroids or whatever, anything

short of that just doesn't matter.

It's kind of bearable.

It is.

I mean, it's great.

It's a good palliative.

Yeah, but that's my, yeah, it's not
something that's how I, that's my code.

Yeah, yeah.

That's your code.

Use the kids word.

That's my code.

Yeah, because you've, you've, you've
sized it to a level that is tolerable.

Yeah.

And look, and that is, and I do agree
because the thing that got me out of

the chronic anxiety was, and I know this
will sound so grim to so many people,

like, the thing that prevented a number
of nervous breakdowns on my part,

was, or made them smaller, was, sorry.

We're all going to be dead one day.

It doesn't matter.

Absolutely.

You love the being dead thing.

Yeah.

Oh, I don't love it.

Ali's always talking about just having
a little sleep and never waking up.

Oh, it'd be great.

Me, I'm going to fight it
to my last fucking breath.

No, no, but I also want to live on
in my apartment and not in my work.

A hundred percent.

Yeah.

No, I'm on both sides of that one.

You should have made some pieces
of it that I have not made.

Oh, I don't know, Joe.

I think, I don't know.

I feel like you've had some
breakthroughs that I haven't.

But, but I will also say on the School
of Life tip, there was a great School

of Life video a few years ago where, you
know, de Botton, uh, urges us in his.

Dset tones to, you know, consider
the vastness of the universe.

And there's like a million stars for
every grain of sand on this beach.

And like, yeah, the insignificance
of that is an enormous comfort.

And like, yes.

And the, the ego inflating the,
the size of the ego, which can

only be done in one's own mind.

It can't be done in reality.

But then that can determine the way
we experience reality and it can

cause us to have mental breakdowns.

It literally, everyone in
the world is counting on me.

And if I don't do this ritual, um,
World War III will happen, you know,

all that, the genuine delusional stuff,
and the stuff that sounds more grounded,

like I can't take a day off, that
is also mental illness and delusion,

and we need to call that out as well.

And Alain de Botton would very much
say, you know, contrary to what you

might believe, if you took a day
off, nobody would really notice,

but we have an image of ourselves.

Where we are so much more important
than that, but consider the

grains of sand and the stars.

And then in the comments
section of the video...

It was 50 50 people going, Oh, thanks bro.

I really needed that.

So true.

And the other half, how dare you?

This makes me sick.

I can't even think
about my insignificance.

I hate you.

That stuff works.

It works while you're watching
it and then it wears off.

There's no replacement for
psychoanalysis and also meditation.

Yeah.

But the, the school of life stuff really
works on that intellectual level of like.

It makes sense.

Go and have a mental breakdown.

Think about your own insignificance.

The worst thing that possibly happens,
well, you'll just be dead, which is a

perfectly tolerable situation, right?

Yeah.

It works.

But I need more.

I needed, what I always needed,
was to go on a spiritual journey.

And now I've gone on that.

And the good part is it's
no one else's problem.

It's my own spiritual journey.

I don't have to preach about
it, but I always needed that.

And until I got that, I was
going to be destroying myself.

Once I connected with some
spirituality and a higher power, I'm

free again, you know, so everyone's
got to find what they want to be.

Need, you know, and for me, actually,
it was an active spiritual life and

clever videos from the School of Life
and great books, which I love, will

never actually heal me in the same
way that my spiritual practice does.

They're delicious little biscuits,
but they're not the thing.

Yeah.

And the other thing about a
mental breakdown is it might

be a spiritual experience.

Yes.

Being misdiagnosed.

Oh, a hundred percent.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

No.

Our psych system does a job,
but it's not well set up to

accommodate spiritual experiences.

No, no.

I was having a spiritual
experience back then at 19.

Very, you know, very similar to you.

Yeah.

No, there was all kinds of
metaphysical cosmic dimensions to it.

Absolutely.

And, and, you know, my mom was
kind of wrong when she said.

This is a spiritual crisis, but she was
actually right in another way, um, I just

didn't resolve it in the way she expected.

For me, it was not the call to
theism, it was the opposite.

It was like, oh no,
no, no, the universe...

It does not have a
grander, larger meaning.

It took me a long time to accept it,
but I was like, or if it does, it's not

some comforting story you think it is,
like, maybe it has a larger meaning,

but it may not make sense to humans.

Gonna have to make it for yourself, you
know, whereas I think she was rather

hoping that that nervous breakdown would,
would be my come to Jesus, you know.

To Hare Krishna.

Yeah.

Back to the Hare Krishnas.

Yeah.

But you know, it wasn't to be, but
in your case, Joe, religion was lying

in wait for you that whole time.

Oh, I've never.

Yeah.

Wow.

I haven't joined a religion yet.

Work in progress.

I think maybe that's your next career.

You have to start one.

There you go.

Yeah.

Someone else said I was going
to be a cult leader one day.

Yeah, definitely.

It's a good career move these days.

Yeah, for sure.

What about me as cult leader about it?

I don't know.

No, don't be a cult leader.

Like do, do seminars and courses.

Oh, like MLM or something.

Yeah, that'd be cool.

It does appeal to me the idea
of having power over people.

Yeah, it does.

For sure.

Listen to that.

It's a healthy instinct.

Actually, I have power over no
one, not even my own children.

They just laugh at me.

That's true.

That's true.

Which is the only safe way for me to be.

All right, let's go.

Love your work, Joe.

Another piece of wisdom from you there.