The Ten Thousand Things

Joe: There's reality,
which is loving awareness,

Sam: unconcerned by the arising
and passing away of phenomena.

Ali: And then there are the 10, 000

things.

Sam: Hello.

Welcome to the 10, 000 things.

My name is Sam Ellis.

I'm Joe Loh.

Ali: And I'm Ali Catramados.

Joe: Today on the show,
letting go of friends.

Let's get into it.

It's pretty simple,
pretty self explanatory.

It is.

Uh, I've done a bit of it
in the last year or two.

It seems to be an accelerating process.

Ali: Um, it does when you get
older, I think you become much more,

mindful of the time that you do have.

And so you're The people that
you do invest in, you want them

to be meaningful connections.

And so the acquaintances that you would
have given a lot of time to in your

early twenties, you don't necessarily
invest nearly that much in those 10

people tend to fall by the wayside.

Joe: So true.

My first rule of letting go of friends is
"don't tell yourself that you're letting

go of them because you've outgrown them."

There's too much ego in that.

Yeah It's not obvious a lot of the
time why a friendship has drifted.

That's such a good point.

Second rule of letting go of friends is
Try not texting or calling someone who

has your number and see what happens
Yeah And if you realize that you're

the friend that's always made the
first contact and you've made the first

contact for 15 years And if you just
don't do that, they never contact you,

you probably don't have that friend.

It's just an illusion.

That's, that's a couple of things.

Ali: Trying to shift the dynamic of how
the friendships always been established.

Joe: They might be really happy to hear
from you when you text them or call

them, but they never reach out to you.

That's not a real friend.

Sam: I'm going to asterisk that, but yeah.

Ali: But I was going to say to your first
point, like the growing apart, I think,

and I actually watched something very
recently and he was talking about A real

friendship, is where you can, you do
grow apart, but when you are together.

It's okay.

You actually enable the other person
to grow and change in different ways.

And you know, they do that with you and
you do grow and that is the nature of,

but they give you the space to do that
and they still want to be around you.

And that's actually what a real
friend, that's a lifelong friendship.

If you have the capacity to do that.

So like, you know, the example of when
you have friends that you might not see

all the time, but you see them maybe
once or twice a year, but when you

catch up, it's just like, it's amazing.

And this is what you're
doing with your life.

And you might've grown and changed
significantly in that time,

but you still have this common.

shared experience and of
a lifelong friendship.

Yeah,

Joe: they're great friendships, but
what I had done was hold on to friends

from when I was five years old, like
my first friend in grade prep, and

held on and held on and held on.

Till when?

Last couple of years.

Oh, yeah.

And then it is that growing apart
and people fall into addiction.

Mm hmm.

People start becoming
self destructive, like

Sam: Oh, you're not just talking
about yourself, you're talking

about friends that you've watched.

Yeah,

Joe: like that's I see that happen.

Or they just you start death knell
for a friendship for me now is when

I start judging someone's behavior.

Ooh.

Like really judging
going, Oh God, no, that's.

And look, a big part of
it for me is sobriety.

It's because I never drink.

people's behavior that's shitty when
they drink, I find it hard, I judge

them, and once I start judging them,
the friendship starts to be over.

Ali: And you're not going to have that
shared experience of like, going out

for a drink with them, because that's
not a thing you even want to do.

No, and I

Joe: clung on to that for years
after I stopped drinking and hung

around my cricket club and hung
around pubs and drank cokes and.

Yeah, so let the letting go is happening
really deeply now, where I'm just like,

you know, like I've, I've been invited
to a Bucks, bucks party tomorrow night.

You know, it's starting at midday or
something, and I was thinking of going

to watch the footy at 7:30 PM Perfect.

I wanna do that.

But in the past, I would've been like,
well, I might've stopped drinking, but I

can still do all the things I used to do.

And that's not being kind to yourself to
go to a pub full of blind, drunk people.

Mm.

When you're a sober guy,

Sam: right?

Is it worth going, like, early, and
having the catch up, and then...

Before they get drunk, yeah.

And when things start getting juicy,
you just, you just go, like, yeah.

Yeah.

Joe: Because I've done that.

Look, that's just one example, but,

Sam: No, no, it's a good example, though.

Joe: Yeah.

And, yeah...

So what I'm trying to say is mm-hmm.

I'm finally getting to a point
where I'm not scared anymore.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

That's what I was getting of
the social consequences mm-hmm.

Of having just a small group of friends.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Alanda button says if you've got,
if you have three really good

friends across a lifetime mm-hmm.

You can count yourself really lucky.

Now.

I would have always thought that
number was more like 30 or 40.

Oh, wow

Sam: Yeah, yeah Not as an ambition
just like that that that's the base.

That's the benchmark number you had in

Joe: mind I just without thinking but
when he said three across the lifetime,

I kind of thought Yeah, but I guess we
are what I wanted to hear from you guys

is So what I'm really focused on is, in
the last couple of years, really close,

long term friends, or even friends
I've made since I got sober, that I was

really close with, and then realizing
there's conflict, and it doesn't make

sense to continue the conflict, what
makes sense is to just let them go,

and that Suddenly, what it creates
is room in your life for new friends.

And if you never get rid of the dead
wood, and that's again, not attacking

the actual person, just assessing the
relationship as dead wood between you two.

It's not saying they're bad.

It's just saying this is.

Not serving me anymore.

If you never get rid of that, you
never create the space for new friends.

But there's that scary bit
in between, where you've let

go of a bunch of old friends.

And my experience just in the last month
is a bunch of new friends coming in.

And you two are new friends in a
way, because Sam I knew 20 years ago,

but really didn't see for 20 years.

And Ali I didn't know a year ago, and
now we do this project together and it's

like you realise the frequency of how
we chat to organise this show means that

you two become two of my closest friends,
but in my head my closest friends Are

the people I've paid under 12 cricket
with and I've never adjusted that, I've

never got the spreadsheet out and been
like, oh, who are my closest friends?

It's like, well, my closest friends,
yeah, Benny Anderson from grade four.

Now, I can still go to Benny
Anderson's house this weekend and

have a roast dinner and it would
be like we've never been apart.

That's valuable.

Right?

That friendship is rock solid.

Golden.

But actually he's not one
of my closest friends.

So

Sam: interesting

Ali: it's it's years ago like
with an ex we does he listen.

Sam: Sorry.

Yeah

Joe: used to listen I don't
know if he still does but um,

Sam: shout out Benny.

Thank you for being Joe's solid Yeah,

Joe: Benny the builders
laborer was a big fan

Ali: I was gonna say like it years ago
the ex and I we moved a lot of a house

a lot of times and you know getting
somebody to help you move house is a

You know, getting volunteers to do that.

Sam: Joe hit me up to help
you the other day, and I

Ali: said yes.

And it's, and that's the thing,
knowing who you can count on when

you get stuck, who's, someone who's
actually going to genuinely be

like, oh, we'll come and help you.

That group becomes smaller and
smaller, and like, and that, the joke

was we realised who, in those years,
who our close friends really were.

The people who were going to drop
stuff and come and help us because

a truck is whatever, you know.

And knowing you have those sorts of levels
of support and friendship is, yeah, yeah.

Sam: So do you find if you got to a
point in your life where you're like,

I've got enough money just to pay, like,
I'm not claiming, I don't even feel this

way now, but let's say I was comfortable
enough with just going and paying

removalists as a single person even,
does that mean I'm less likely to have?

Uh, that, that I'm less likely
toll have that habit of calling on.

Joe: I think actually over about 35.

You

Ali: should never, yeah,
you shouldn't be hitting it.

I mean, we were quite young, man
should just find the money, right?

We were in our twenties,

,
Joe: but I was panicking a bit last week
and I was like, fuck, I can borrow a

truck and I'll, and I asked four Yeah.

Friends, how many?

And I, you know, and one of 'em
wasn't my oldest friend, Benny

Anderson, 'cause he's just got brand
new baby and it's like, last thing.

Sam: Leave, leave him alone.

No, no, leave him alone.

So it's like, mind you, he might
love an excuse to be honest.

Joe: But, in the end, the four
people I asked all said yes, so

I know they're my true friends.

And then someone else mentioned,
just get on Facebook Marketplace

and find someone to do it for cheap.

And I realised I was better off,
even if I had to borrow some money

to do that, to pay someone to do
it, which is what I'm going to do.

But, I did the friendship test.

And actually, who my four
go tos were, unexpected.

One of them was Sam, one of
them's a friend from high school

who's come back into my life.

It wasn't who it would have been...

Five years ago.

I

Ali: think, yeah, that.

Or maybe even two years ago.

I think you have over a lifetime, you
have your circle, so you're always

going to have your, the people that
you go to, but that circle changes.

And I think people will move in
and out over it over a lifetime.

So like when you're young, you might
have, yeah, they're your mate in school,

but then you might have a few, you know,
months, say in your twenties where you'd

like going out all the time or then,
yeah, they come back into your life when

you have kids cause they've asked you
for some advice or you might run into

them and then all of a sudden it's all on
again and people move in and out of that.

Because, yeah, life events happen.

Things will take them out of that
circle for various reasons, whether

it's, yeah, family commitments, jobs.

They start a relationship.

Yeah, they start a relationship,
which is probably the biggest one.

Um, yeah, like, those
sorts of things will, yeah.

But I think a real, like a true friend
will move in and out of that really

comfortably, like, with no time, with
no matter how much time has passed.

Whereas, Yeah, like then there'll
be people for whatever reason, once

they're out of that circle, they're
never really going to be quite in again.

And that's the ones you've
got to learn to let go of.

Oh

Sam: yeah, that's true.

Once you're out, you're out.

Like there's a, there is, there
are, because there's, when you were

talking earlier about, I think what
you were trying to say earlier was

letting go temporarily sometimes.

Yeah.

Um, and that understanding that there's a,
that that's a good thing to do and that.

So, even if, whether you may or may not
hang out again in the future, and I was

thinking of one person in particular
where we have, we've very much had seasons

and not summer things, not a particular
autumn, uh, get together or anything like

that, but just like a few years will go
by, we'll run into each other and then

we'll start up something and then that'll,
that'll go strong for a year or two.

And then...

The same thing.

Again, like it's just, and
it's been very productive.

Joe: But in terms of running into each
other, is the, is what happens now the

illusion that you've stayed in contact
because of something like social media?

You haven't seen them for three
years, but you're like, yeah, I

don't know what they're doing.

And I've seen them.

It's like, no, you haven't.

Ali: One of my close, I would say who's
in my circle, who my closest friends,

but it doesn't live that far away.

And people aren't posting either.

Yeah.

Like, yeah, we just, we,
it's just a meme exchange.

It's been a meme exchange for
years and years and years.

And, and also like life
advice and we talk and stuff.

And so we talk most days, but it's very
hard to actually pin her down to catch

up because of her life circumstance.

And I like.

Yeah, just our availability,
but it does give the illusion, I

think, that there is a closeness.

that potentially isn't there in the
way that it is with other people.

Yeah, It's still

Sam: serving a purpose, though, I guess.

And perhaps because there's not
that expectation you're going to be

catching up in person anytime soon.

It actually maybe preserves kind of text
channel to be a particular thing in a way,

because you don't have to clutter it with.

Try to make plans.

You can, it's just a particular
go to for a particular purpose.

Joe: Have either of you had like
a painful friendship breakup?

Yeah.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

That you can remember or talk
about even in anonymized terms?

Ali: Yeah, I have two in over my life that
have two people who've come into my life

who I thought were You know, like this,
the kids would say, right, or die, or like

a really, like a friend who would, who
was going to be there for the long haul.

And I mean, it was for a
very long time and then for

various reasons have moved out.

And so the first one, when
I was really young and.

We'd met at a party and we had like
mutual friends and it was one of those

nights where you're on ecstasy and you're
up all night and you're just chatting

till 7 in the morning just talking shit.

And from that night on it
was just, we were best buds.

We, like I would go to his house,
we were so awkward and shy around

the opposite sex and so we would go
back to his place after the pub, like

everyone would be at the pub, we'd
all go out but then he and I would

always peel off, go back to his place.

Incel buds.

Yeah, before

Sam: the term was scary, because
the very first public person to

call themselves incel was a woman.

And you would have probably identified
somewhat with her, and I would

have too, at the time, at times.

And she was just saying, I'm
just, I'm just, I'm a dork

who's just unlucky in love.

And I feel like.

Yeah, yeah, that was kind of,
does anyone else feel the same

way as me and wanna, yeah,

Ali: and we had a lot in common, we'd
go back and watch DVDs, we used to have

our regular DVD concerts, we used to
watch and drink and we'd fall asleep

together next to each other, like three
or four nights a week, he would call

me at five in the morning and I would
answer, this went on for years and years

and years, he was my really, really
good friend and I, Loved him so much.

And he loved me.

Was he up all night when
he called you at five?

Not always.

No, like, yes, but he was just my person.

That we were each other's person
for like, in a lot of ways,

I think we were playing out

Joe: a surrogate.

Did you weren't rooting each other?

Ali: Yeah, because there
wasn't really that physical

attraction, certainly not from me.

And he said that to me, however.

It might have even been
true when he said it.

Yeah, exactly.

What had happened, and then it wasn't
true later, and then it wasn't true later,

and we, I met somebody, and then all of
a sudden I was in a relationship, and we

were doing this, and I had mentioned to
this, my new partner at the time, that

look, I have this friend, and he stays,
and like, this is our, you know, and he

was a bit like, ooh, this sounds like, You
know, you share a bed and nothing happens.

I'm like, literally
nothing's happened in years.

It's cool.

Like it's like, it's like
a Michael Jackson thing.

And then, so he came and
did the regular thing.

We, you know, and we went to bed and
he was staying the night at my place.

And then all of a sudden he's,
he's gone to make a move.

And I was like, what the f and I'm
like, now of all time, I was, part

of me was just like heartbroken.

And I was like, of all.

Like, I've just finally,
you've been through so much

with me, and seen how much...

Let me ask you this.

Joe: Have you ever met men?

Ali: Yeah, yeah.

What do you think, Ali?

I just, I just, but like, I never got...

Joe: Men are biding their fucking time.

That is 90% of male female

Sam: friendships.

For years, for years.

Joe's taking Harry's side
in When Harry Met Sally.

Joe: They're biding their time.

Whenever there's been ambiguity in,
in my friendships with women, none of

those women are friends with me now.

So,

Ali: it's interesting that...

So, cause afterwards,
like we had this huge cry.

Both of us were crying.

Like he was like, it was really, it
was really full on and he was crying.

He was like, and he goes,
I feel like I'm losing.

I said, why did you do it now?

And he said, I feel like I'm
losing my best friend as in two.

And I think that's why

Joe: he could give you what the
other guy was going to give you.

He gets to keep his Ali.

Ali: Yes.

And that's, and that's what it was.

And it was just never the same after that.

There's all

Sam: kinds of complexity here.

Like I just want to.

Speak up in favor of this guy
for a second, because my initial

judgment has shifted, I think.

And I think he was doing a bit of an
Indiana Jones, grab the hat from under

the door as it's like rolling down.

And, you know, he's
like, it's now or never.

But, so there's a good chance
that there actually was, in his

mind, the long term goal of...

Joe: I would go back to say
that first night when I stayed

up till 7am on ecstasy talking.

He wanted to kiss Ali back then, for sure.

I don't

Ali: know, I mean, I never got
that impression though, in the

whole time we were together

Sam: though.

Yeah, but I was that guy, to some extent.

Yeah, yeah, you

Joe: know what, I'm going
to help you out here.

I'm a bit like you, I went in
and out, like one minute I'd

have some incredibly attractive
girlfriend and I'd be riding high.

Yeah.

Then I'd go back to like borderline incel,
had no idea how to approach the opposite

sex and the confidence never really built.

Sam: No, and I never understood
why I succeeded or failed.

Yeah.

And like one of my best female
friends turned to me one point.

She said, your girlfriend is the most
beautiful girl on all of Brunswick Street.

And I'm like, are you serious?

I don't remember that one.

Yeah, you probably do.

Shout out to Carly.

And she's still the belle of the ball.

But you know, like it's, it's a
funny thing because I didn't realise

until later because Claire was in
the friend zone with me looking back.

I didn't really pick up on it at the time.

Now I won't say in a big way.

I Think she could take it
or leave it kind of thing.

And we weren't hanging out all
the time like you and old mate.

And I did have feelings for Claire
sometimes, but I knew that I was

not going to be a good boyfriend.

So I was just like, nah, yeah.

, spoken for that.

Fast forward 12 months.

And I'm like, who am I?

What is love?

Baby don't hurt me.

Like nothing.

Like what am I doing wrong?

And then, but then, you know, and
then I hit a purple patch after

that where it was just ridiculous
and just couldn't put a foot wrong.

And then other times just
couldn't put a foot right.

And it was, there were friendships that.

You know, sustained me emotionally
through that period, but yeah, I've

got to say some of them were in
that weird area of one or the other,

or maybe even both of us kind of
contemplating and then not doing anything.

And to me, that's like a very
early to mid twenties type of vibe.

Ali: Yeah, in that time, like, you
know, when you're hanging out in

big social groups and you're going,
you usually have your regular pub

nights or your regular nights out.

And like, I'd hooked up with his
mates, like, you know, cause you

know, you go like, cause early
twenties that's, and he'd never

had batted an eyelid about that.

He'd never, he was fine with that.

I think, I do think genuinely
part of it was like, he felt like.

He was losing his best
friend and I don't think it's

Sam: the the long term goal was there,
but I think it came and went I think there

were times he was into you physically and
then times he wasn't and was just like no

I just like having this person and then
when he senses it's it's gonna be gone

forever He's like, well, I've got a step

Ali: up because I think we will
somehow sort of playing out almost

like this weird proxy relationship We
were in a relationship without sex.

That's what it was That's right.

He was a person I could
lean on and vice versa.

And what's he going to do without

Sam: that intimacy?

Like men need that as much as women.

Ali: And like, not long after
he met someone and then was

married within 12 months.

And like, yeah, like it was,
and I just, yeah, hardly ever

Joe: heard from him.

And what was the second one Ali?

And then Sam's going
to have to give us one.

Yeah.

So

Ali: the second one was,
it started off as a fling.

We just had like a little fling,
but then He was just like, I

don't think I'm interested.

I was like, cool, whatever.

But then we just started chatting, right?

Like just over the, you know,
and then that chatting then

became, yeah, like, fling first.

Fling first.

Yeah, like it was only
hooked up a couple of times.

Joe: So both of your friendship, both
of your friend breakups involved sex.

Ali: Well, yeah.

Because like then what happened
is, yeah, we then, yeah, it started

to turn into a friendship and then
a very deep friendship and a very

supportive and loving friendship.

We had a lot of shared experiences
around mental health and bipolar.

So

Sam: this goes against the
one and done picture of men

you were painting earlier, Jo.

Yeah, so...

Well, no, you weren't
quite going for that.

But I think this is a good
illustration of the idea that a man

could, you know, sleep with you a
couple of times and then be like...

There's actually something
more important here.

Yeah,

Ali: yeah, and there really was for years
and he was very supportive and very caring

but he also had a lot of, um, his own
mental health issues and things were, I

was in quite a vulnerable position at the
time and I realized actually then going

into therapy and explaining this dynamic
that I had to my therapist that it was

actually quite unhealthy for me and that
this man was actually quite manipulative.

It was quite manipulative and he'd
said some really appalling things and I

decided to that actually no this isn't.

This isn't actually healthy or good for
me, and I made a really conscious decision

of letting that person go out of my life.

Um, which is the only, one and only
time I've ever done that in my life

and actually said, No, I just don't
think I can be your friend anymore.

because yeah, he'd said some incredibly
hurtful things that normally I would

have just copped, I think, thinking
like, oh, you know, people make mistakes

or whatever it was, but actually what
he'd said and done was so not okay.

and...

Yeah, so simultaneously it was
heartbreaking because like there was

a like because we'd again been friends
for years And I thought you know what

we had was really a special friendship
And and it wasn't I did lean on him

heavily and vice versa and we did
lots of kind Loving things for each

other and I don't think that's right.

I think that's yeah It was it was really
it was a genuine loving huge part of my

life and but then yeah, it was absolutely
Like it just turned quite Toxic.

And I think whether I don't want to, like,
I don't want to say his mental health was

the, the, the cause of that, but it was,
I can't say that it wasn't a contributing

factor, but there was, I mean, yeah, there
was behavioral things in there as well.

Maybe, maybe he didn't know how to

Sam: end it or something that
maybe he needed to move on to.

I think he did.

Yeah.

Ali: We, we, again, it was, there
was, even though we'd both been in

relationships and stuff over the
years, we also leaned on each other

in a semi sort of proxy relationship
kind of way, and that the things we

weren't getting necessarily from the
relationships We got from each other.

There was definitely an
intellectual and an emotional

connection between the two of us.

I mean, it's great with, I mean, Joe
and I would, you know, you've got a

bipolar friend, you're talking a million
miles an hour, you're drawing on heaps

of bits of it, like someone who could
keep up and those people are rare when

they come in and out of your life.

It

Joe: sounds like I'm fulfilling that role
that you've always had, which is that one

male friend that you don't sleep with.

I've always had close male
friendships my case, also bipolar

and also says horrible things to you

Ali: sometimes, so it's like...

Yeah, I just need a bully in
my, a bipolar bully in my life,

it's very, no, not all of them.

It's

Joe: like some There,
that I'm in the role,

Sam: yeah, I started to think that
while you were saying, yeah, and I

think it's, clearly it's a sign of
things having changed in your life,

Ali, that, that You know, you can,
you can have Joe in this position

of importance, but it's, you know, I

Ali: think it's balanced.

It's balanced and it's in a healthy way.

And I think after, particularly
with therapy, like if Joe does say

something a bit off, which is, you
know, not often, but like, you know,

he does say, I just tell you now,
like, whereas I would never have said.

That was hurtful or I didn't like that or,
you know, pull your head in, but I mean,

you're actually not like that at all.

You're actually genuine.

Sam: And Joe's never trying to
hurt anyone, unless he means to.

Ali: Yours is just generally, it's
just bluntness that some people, and I

appreciate the bluntness and I think a
lot of people find that really polarizing.

Joe: Sometimes you just need
to lift your fucking game, Ali.

Sam: Sometimes you need a
coach who talks to you firmly.

Ali: I do.

I really do.

I.

I need that in relationships,
in all my relationships.

I do.

I actually.

It's an ASD thing.

I like the directness.

Sam: And you don't want
it to come from a partner.

No!

Romantic partner, that sucks.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

It's really good to have a friend
that's just like, come on, bro.

What about

Joe: you, Sam?

Do you have a particular friend, breakup?

Well, I just want to, yeah,

Sam: well, the one, the person I mentioned
earlier, like that's come in and out,

like the first time that that happened.

That we, because we've, thinking
back, I think we were quite, or not

quite in the, not the romantic zone,
but like that intimacy and that

dependence in our early 20s, like we
really needed each other at times.

You know, like, Joe, you can remember,
and maybe we still experience it now

as older men, you, that sometimes
when two, two men are close, there's

like an asexual romanticism that
we've all experienced, I think.

Ali: I've, I've heard, I've heard that
men say, like a lot of men experience

romance through other men and not
actually through their romantic partners.

That's what the real, the real
loves of their lives are the men.

They've often

Joe: been there.

The great text on that is.

He's on the road.

Yeah.

Cause he revered

Sam: Dean.

Yeah.

And

Joe: we've all had that, I think.

I mean, when I look back on my twenties,
it was getting together on a Sunday

at a certain friend's house with a
couple of other particular friends and

reviewing the night before, who'd picked
up, who got too drunk and threw up,

who took some acid, blah, blah, blah.

But then you'd be drinking again on
the Sunday or smoking weed or whatever.

You'd have the music going and you'd
be reviewing the Saturday night.

Now, it's taken a lot of grieving to
let go of so much of that, there's no

Saturday night, there's no drug taking,
there's no booze, there's no three friends

that I meet up with on a Sunday, all of
that is gone, and what I, I guess what

I want to talk about a bit today is,
it's actually quite painful I agree.

But, finally, I'm finding a
lot of acceptance around it.

Yes.

And creating some new friendships.

Same.

Whereas I think I spent 10 years
hanging on to the idea that one day,

the Sunday afternoon, at that friend's
house would come back, and it would

be telling war stories from the night
before, and the glory days, and blah

blah blah, and we can't, isn't it
in Sopranos, like, Um, there's no

sadder story than remember when.

Oh, a hundred percent.

Sam: Yeah.

And you know, I've been getting those.

Yeah.

It often takes me a while.

Like you'll hit that emotional base
note that you want me to get on.

It takes me a while to
warm up and find it.

I sometimes get the Peter Allen
moment, you know, someday we'll

all be together once more.

And you know, when that pops into your
head, there's a certain sentimental

romanticism there that is like false.

And it's illusory.

Yeah, they're gone.

Ali: It's, yeah.

I certainly had that, yeah, with
the girl, my girlfriends and stuff.

You know, it was particularly going to an
all girls school, that dynamic of, yeah,

you're sharing what's happened, who's
into who, like, you know, that breakdown,

that regular catch up of like, oh, I'm
just swinging by, we're going to have a

wine, we're going to chat, blah, blah.

Yeah.

You have to let go of.

That experience and now it's sort of
and moving into a different stage of

I'll come over for a cup of tea or
whatever You know, like, you know,

Joe: whatever.

I tried

to

Sam: keep those going.

Yeah, the one on one is more productive
anyway than like having the full

bench Yeah, you know, like it's
great to have the other thing that

Joe: I've had about, sorry, you
haven't explained the rest of your

story about your man romance and I'll
let you finish that thread, but The

other thing I've tried since I got
sober, which failed, is going to a

man's house and having a coffee Yeah,
and talking about life is a bad idea.

Mm hmm.

Oh, yes.

Yes.

Yes.

No, whereas yeah, because most of blokey
blokes Yeah, whereas if I can go with

them and watch the footy Yeah, and
then we'll be discussing like life and

the world while the footy's happening.

That works, or with an activity
like playing cricket together,

or a round of golf like I did
that yesterday with a new friend.

That works, but because I'm
fucking intense, I don't feel

it because it's just how I am.

They go through this intense
hour where I'm like...

Yeah, I'm finding it really hard to, uh,
understand my relationships with women and

like, they don't want to talk like that.

But generally, they'll have those
conversations late at night or like...

No, no,

Sam: there has to be a

Joe: holding space.

Yeah.

So I've just had to pull back and
realize you can't impose yourself.

And in those conversations that would
happen over seven hours in a pub MDMA.

It's just gonna be different.

It's probably not gonna be as good, I
have to admit, but like, there's still

the possibility of connection, there
really is, and maybe it's more honest

than when you're off your fucking head,
but, those experiments of just inviting

myself around to people's places that I
liked, to have a coffee, It just left me

with that feeling of like, Oh, that was,
I think that was awkward for that person.

I don't want to do that to them

Ali: again.

I'm not, I mean, I simultaneously long
for being able to have a circle of friends

or people that can just pop in just
for the coffee in a really spontaneous

way, which I obviously do not have.

Like, I mean, with people, with kids,
jobs, nobody has that sort of time.

And even if I did, yeah, I
would feel awkward as fuck.

Like, you know, just like, like
they'd probably think if I was.

I'm going to randomly call up a friend
and be like, Oh, by the way, I'm

just going to stop in for a coffee.

They're like, she's going to tell
me something serious or something's

out, like something's actually out.

Yeah.

Like it's going to, cause it's such an
uncommon experience now, whereas I suppose

it's totally different in your 20s.

Joe: Anyway, back to your
mandala dance, I want to get

Sam: to the end of that story.

No, Ali, that's a very good point.

And I think Joe, I've
done this to people too.

The thing you were just describing,
I think I had the sort of parallel

thought to you, which is I can't.

Go out to the, to the pub and get
warmed up and then have the DNM.

Like I just, we've got to cut
to the good bit of the party.

Remember that?

Yeah, cut straight to the
part when we're dancing.

Yeah, but we talked about that very
early on like episode three maybe

and that I think so trying to trying
to create that space that without

the drinking and the drugs, right?

Because and that that's a So, I have a
lot of ambition I've got as well, right?

And in fact, it's something I've
succeeded in doing, but I think I've

kind of sprung that on people where
it's like, suddenly it's a DNM, and I

never plan on it necessarily that way.

But I've had the same realization
that even with some of my

arty friends, that they're not
necessarily ready to go to that spot.

Like, they don't have to be super, you
know, super sporty blokes even to feel...

A little bit.

Joe: But that's like, but that's why we're
doing a podcast, Sam, because I hadn't

seen you in years and then you get in the
car and it's like, by the time we drove

an hour, we'd done climate change, Putin,
breakups, um, you know, gender relations,

uh, what it's like being a dad, blah,
blah, blah, and then that conversation

With you, just never, it started in 2001
and it just basically never stops and it's

fine, but you don't have a lot of, I've
got plenty of time, I could come around

here every day and sit out in your shed
at the moment, I'm pretty underemployed

in the film industry and we could have
intense chats, but, and I wouldn't find

it tiring, I never really find it tiring
with you because you kind of energise

me, which I think is the connection part,
but I can't go and, uh, force my way.

Energy onto someone else.

Yeah.

You know, like, well, yes.

And maybe if they're not neurodivergent,
like maybe that's the neurodivergence,

like some of these people I'm thinking of
are very well adjusted, calm people too.

Right.

And having this large, you know, whereas

Sam: I'm bipolar adjacent
and you can't, yeah.

You can do that sort of thing
with me, but not with them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's it.

And the, the steady types.

They're steady either because
they've got certain dispositions

and they just stay that way.

Or they work very hard
on keeping it that way.

Joe: Yeah, they do.

I think, and they filter things

Ali: really well.

Cause, yeah, I think have like, you
find like, you know, you neurodivergent

friends make neurodivergent friends.

Like if you're bipolar, you're going
to make a friend with, cause you

have that shared experience, but it's
also very much the practicalities

of somebody with bipolar.

There's a good chance that
person will be up late.

So, that's the person who's up
late who you're talking to because

they're not sleeping, right?

And that was certainly my experience
of, you know, or like, yeah, the

person who's a bit chaotic and not
necessarily in work, you can contact

during the day, that's, so it's that
availability plus shared experience.

But I have

Joe: the experience, I go on, I go on
first dates and by the end of an hour,

women have told me like their darkest
secrets and they've told me in detail

about their marriage breakup and whatever.

Mm.

And, and then they say,
I, I dig that stuff.

Mm.

Wow.

You're really great to talk to.

I don't wanna see you again,
because there's some vulnerability

that's been opened up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And maybe they just wanted to
have a roll around in the hay.

Yeah.

But I can't turn off this thing
where I'm like curious, like, yeah.

Tell me about your marriage breakup.

Sam: No, no.

Your, your Andrew bloody Denton.

Yeah.

Just enough roping these women every time.

Yeah.

. And I do, I do the same thing to, to,
to people whether I, whether it's.

You know, whether I just think they're
interesting or whether it's a friend or

it's a romantic prospect, I'm the same.

I just have this instinct.

I just want to open that can.

Ali: I'm the same.

It's just...

It's

Sam: pleasurable, right?

Ali: It is.

I continually get...

Yeah.

Similarly, like to you, Joe, on the
dating apps or the experience has

been, I feel like I can talk to you.

Like, like I get, I've had that.

It could be a trauma thing could
be, I don't know what, I mean,

whatever, whatever it's rooted in, I
think there is an openness about me.

And I think as my psychologist
said, there's, I, I'm not judgmental

to a, to a fault actually.

And so holding that space
for somebody to just.

Be able to speak without judgment has,
you know, enables me to have really deep

and lovely conversations and really rich
experiences because people do feel that

safe place around me, that they can have
those, because yeah, I'm similarly like

have that, I'm interested and curious.

Joe: I don't want to see you again.

Ali: No, I think, I think, no, it
generally then turns into like, I

haven't felt this, I haven't, I don't
normally feel like this around somebody.

I want to then be with you and then it's,
it's all on, as we've had that discussion.

Partly, that

Joe: could be a, that could be
a male female thing, or partly,

you know, maybe men get opened up
and feel vulnerable and tell you

their darkest secrets and think...

I've never felt like this.

Where women open up and tell
you the dark secrets and they're

like, Now I'm vulnerable, this
person has something over me.

And is he a little bit dangerous?

Ali: Yeah, like, yeah, do I feel safe?

Yeah.

You know what?

I am a little bit dangerous.

Whereas I think perhaps I'm giving them
a safe, like I'm not coming across as any

sort, like I'm not going to weaponise it.

No, you're very, there's no
judgement there, so there's no,

so it's very safe for them to be

Sam: like that.

Yeah, even if they weren't
planning on talking about it.

But somehow when, when the
unplanned divulgence occurs with

Joe, there's a feeling of like, oh.

It was good to go there, but I didn't
want to go there, and I don't know

if I'll be able to have control over
the agenda the next time we meet.

Yeah, or like, yeah, like,

Ali: what, what do I,
yeah, do I feel safe?

What is he going to do
with this information?

That's, that's, I think, and,
and women having that distrust

of men, I think, is just general.

I don't, I'm saying that I don't
have that feeling, Joe, but like,

which is why we're still friends.

But I think, whereas, yeah, like, I think
it's, it comes back to feeling safe with

the information that you're sharing.

Sam: Well, that, that's exactly right.

And I think that, that.

Those people, because as you've always
said Joe, you tend to only, you tend

to only want to consider relationships
with fairly serious women who are quite

substantial intellectually or they've
got a decent career or whatever and

they're pretty on their square for
the most part and you know, that kind

of area of establishing that empathy
and understanding like other people's

failures and flaws, well, but it's
a portal through which, you know,

traffic can flow and that So, that gate
being opened, does anyone remember the

article about the problem with empathy?

No.

Sort of like one of
those long form pieces.

Yeah, vaguely.

I did the rounds a few years ago, but
it's based on some reasonably solid

scholarship as far as I can make out, but
the basic thesis of it is, people that are

empathic, Whether through their nature or
through their, they've developed, they've

developed a lot of experience and they're
able to kind of understand a range of

circumstances people have been through.

So, the empathy is a
double edged sword, though.

Because the ability to understand
someone's vulnerabilities

and to feel their feelings...

Actually gives you the ability
to bully and manipulate them as

well as support them and, and...

Joe: I'm just, my problem is, the
reality is I can't adjust my settings.

Sam: No, me neither.

Joe: The one success story
this, in the last year has

been getting Ali as a friend.

Yeah.

And maybe me and Ali have a chance to
stay friends because we never kissed.

Yeah.

There's never been anything physical.

Yeah.

There's no ambiguity.

Hmm.

It's just like...

I had the same reaction that all the
other men had, which is, wow, Ali is

so great to talk to, but I took it in
a different direction, and it wasn't,

actually when we met, when it was going
to be a date, The energy was so unstable

between us that I was like, this is like,
I could just picture myself driving off

a cliff, down one of the waterfalls.

No, it

Ali: was, it was the same, like, I
just, I, there was something about like,

this is going to end so badly, I'm not
good, but you were both mutually like,

no, we're just not going to go there.

Cause this is, there's something.

That would be yeah,

Sam: trouble.

I love you guys.

Thank God you worked it all out.

Ali: I was gonna say it's a very measured
response because I'd say if we had met

maybe like in our late teens early 20s
when we didn't have the knowledge of

what that could then look like probably
would have just been like We'd be, steal

each other's horror stories, sharing,
like, you know, we could have very much

Joe: been that.

What's that movie set on the psych ward?

One Flew Over a Cuckoo's Nest.

No, no, it's the couple
that gets together.

Ali: Oh, um, with Katie Holmes.

Joe: Um, yeah.

No, no, no, I've got it.

What's it called?

Anyway.

I

Ali: know exactly what
you're talking about.

Katie Holmes.

Yeah,

Joe: it's not a very good movie,
but it's about two bipolar people

getting together on the psych ward.

We'll put the name of it.

No, we won't.

Sam: The J Law movie, which is basically
the same movie, two, two bipolar people

and Jennifer Lawrence is one of them.

That's the one.

Oh,

Ali: That's it.

That's a great movie.

That's

Sam: the better one.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, so like I was just going
to say, it seems like one of

the things really important.

In the conversation so far has been
like the match or mismatch between

what people need at their particular
point in life, what they're comfortable

with, whether they can, whether
they can do the sit across the table

and have the D and M at 12 PM, you
know, midday, not late at night.

But Sam, what happened with your bromance?

Well, that's what I was getting back to
because it was, because it was, yeah,

because it was that situation that,
where there was the ability to talk

frankly, and there was, and it was quite,
In fact, I think we were fairly rough

with each other as well, like verbally
and, you know, dished it out a lot and,

which was really good because we both
needed it, like the stick was needed.

Like,

Ali: I think that's similarly
Joe and I are like that with each

other, like we can be brutal.

Yeah.

And you need, but we both need it.

I

Sam: think.

Got it.

Got to have it.

And like, he's always one of the
few people and he's still in my

life and we like the opportunity to
like, have that like high frequency.

High bandwidth type relationship like in
the early 20s or even in the late 20s and

then another go in the 30s That it's not
really in place now for either of us But

I I just know that I could probably still
get that same bluntness from him and I

would value that But the first time we we
never had a we can't be friends anymore.

It wasn't like that.

It was a It was a drifting apart and
more of a ghosting maybe on one side

and then that kind of hurt Because
like, we weren't living, we weren't

sharing a house anymore, and maybe we
both had girlfriends, can't remember.

But like, that always, that
always felt like a thing that

would get in the way as well.

Like, I remember he said to me one
day, You have this habit of putting

women off me and I'm like, man,
I'm not trying to do it on purpose.

Like I promise.

Ali: So it's, perhaps it was like a
romance between you and him over the

years and that when women moved into
that space, there was no space, like you

couldn't share that romance and romance.

Exactly.

Sam: And so it was like an
emotional intimacy that neither

of us could either do at the
same time as having a girlfriend.

Or, it just was a question of not having
the time and then you got the jobs.

One of the friends I've had to let
go of got ghosted and that hurt,

but now when it happens, I'm like,
no, that's just how he rolls.

Yeah.

And I'm fine with it.

Yeah.

Joe: Yeah.

One of the ones that I had to let go
of was, yeah, similar, we'd say rough

things to each other, but, when it just
started to have a cruel edge to it.

Yeah.

Yes.

I remember one thing he said to
me was, oh, you always have to

feel like you're special at work.

And I was like, yeah, that's insightful.

Like I'm used to these criticisms and then
it just stayed with me and I'm like, oh,

that kind of fucking pisses me off and
hurts me and, and then things started to

go a bit that way where what was once,

Sam: um, insightful,

Joe: penetrating, rough love
was much, became more bitter.

Yeah.

Ali: And it's, it's hurtful and there's
a mean, there's a meanness behind it.

There's a meanness

Sam: to stick the knife.

Exactly.

Yeah.

I remember

Joe: one time that same person
said to me, oh, you need to be on

six figures to live in Melbourne.

And I thought, yeah, that's easy
to say when you're on six figures.

But from where I'm standing with
my career, like, like there was

a level of privilege to that
and that's what I'm saying.

And then I judged him and then I thought,

Sam: fuck this guy.

Like,

Joe: like, alright, you're in a
position, in your forties to be

making whatever you're making over
a hundred thousand dollars a year.

But you can't turn around and say,
everyone else needs to do that.

Like, what about some understanding of
how hard that is for a lot of people?

But again, what he said isn't a
hanging offence, and it's maybe

kinda true, you need six figures
to have a good life in Melbourne.

But, my reaction was like,
jeez, I'm really pissed off

about this, and it's like...

That's when I realized I've
got to let this person go.

Sam: So it seems like the way
this stuff is landing is, yeah,

Ali: it's the

Joe: same stuff that he would have always
said, but it just hit me differently.

Ali: Because the thing is when you
grow and change, and that's fine if we

acknowledge and accept that that's okay.

What's happened is that it sounds
like there's a, you've grown and

your values have changed because
fundamentally, if he's saying that.

Yeah, you have to have six feet.

It doesn't sit right with you and
that sort of feels like an attack

on your values and similarly I think

Joe: what happened a little bit too
is that I slipped down the privilege

Change a little bit, whereas when
we were in our 20s, we were equally

privileged, educated, straight white guys.

But, like, a lot of my friends have now
gone on a curve in their 40s where they

are up over a hundred grand a year and
they're doing quite well and they're

managers and I'm not on that curve.

So I'm falling down the scale
of privilege, class wise.

And so, I think it's important when you're
doing that to maybe let go of some people.

You can't relate to them anymore.

Ali: I think there's one other friendship
I've had, and it was like you, like a,

from childhood, like knew each other as
little kids, we were mates throughout

high school, uni, like for years and
years and years, and I would have

always considered a really close friend.

Given that I then had a baby quite young.

And my experience of, you know, being at
home and not necessarily working in great

Sam: jobs.

And that's also a space where
you're going to get judged

Ali: by a lot of people.

Yes.

And she's had a completely
different trajectory.

Sam: It's all gone according to plan,

Ali: has it Ali?

No, no, as in like, she hasn't
had kids and she's had this wildly

successful career, travels the world.

And there's like, it's not like genuine
love and support for what she's been able

to achieve, incredibly talented woman.

But over the last few years,
yeah, like there is a huge

wealth discrepancy and like.

And a huge lifestyle discrepancy.

And our ability to then come back together
and connect the last few times has

been very much, has felt a bit forced.

And like, and I think perhaps we've
just grown and changed too much in

our experiences are just so different
that there's, even though we have that

common history and shared history,
it's not the same as it is now.

And that's why that friendship has
sort of, yeah, like there's been a

bit of like me reaching out and not
hearing back and things like that.

And And feeling a bit hurt by that,
but then also actually accepting,

okay, this, I'm just not a part of
her circle in her life anymore, and

that's okay, and like, yeah, we've
had a great 30 years, like, like, this

is a very long time, but also, maybe
it's, it's not for the next 30 years.

Joe: Sounds like one's let go of Ali.

I think we should wrap it up.

but yeah, look, the, the super
positive spin I'll put on it is this.

I actually have a lot of
acceptance at the moment for my

life being exactly the way it is.

So that's one thing.

So someone else that's a friend that's
being more successful financially

doesn't bother me really at all.

but I can let go of that person if I'm
judging them on what they're saying.

And the other thing I'll say that I
didn't realise is, this sounds a bit

hippy, but when I let go of people...

I create space, and into that space,
new things can come, come new friends,

whereas I always had a scarcity
mentality of like, the moment I let

go of a friend, I'm an only child, so
my friends have always been like my

family, like, I've always had that, and
I've always been really good socially.

At making friends.

Yeah.

Um, but I've realized, oh, actually
it's a bit about editing now.

Yes.

And getting down to just friends
that are a positive, you know,

positive influence in your life.

And, you know, I'm a very needy person.

I'm a very needy texter.

Yeah.

Sometimes.

Yeah.

I'll go through my WhatsApp.

Yeah.

And there'll be people that I'm
texting, say 20 different people.

Yeah.

And I'll literally delete
every single thread.

Mm-hmm.

. And I'll just wait.

And see who comes back in to just
to, because I've had to learn system

self knowledge that I need to give
people the break because I can't

be telling people my every thought.

That's not being a good friend.

That's just being a pest.

And the only person I can
actually do that with is Ali.

But even with Ali, it's fine.

If I send her a message, just
look at it for four hours,

I accept, I can accept that.

But the one difference with Ali is
I'm not going to feel judged and she's

not going to turn around and be like,
mate, you're messaging me too much.

Everyone else, who's not bipolar,
there's a hint of it being a burden,

or the possibility of it being a

Ali: burden.

Yeah, see, whereas I don't see it as a,
if I don't have the capacity to get back

to you in that moment because I'm at work
or whatever, or I'm doing something, I

know I'll get back to you when I can.

And like, I don't feel like, yeah, like
just because you text me a lot or, I

mean, because I also text a lot too.

So, It's, yeah, I just feel
like, yeah, I don't feel like

there's a neediness behind there.

It's just like, yeah.

But it's

Joe: a good exercise because I clear
the decks and then I see who comes

back in and then it's a reaffirming of,
all right, that person wants to be in

communication with me today and everyone
else, I need to just give them a break.

Sam: I just want to say, I've never,
I feel like I've never understood

the rules of texting and maybe I
never will, but I feel like I'm

starting to get more of a grip on it
recently, but, and I've also started

to impose rules around it for myself.

So that's good.

Yeah, so I feel I'm going to do this
thing that I often do, which I don't

get vulnerable until you know, the
door's about to roll down and I've

got to grab my hat from underneath.

Joe declares the session to be over.

And I just learned recently.

One of the origins of the castration
anxiety idea in Freud was like the end

of the session and the patient would
always feel that they were just about to

have the breakthrough, but they wouldn't
feel that until the announcement was

coming that the time is running out.

And so there's something about that that
I just wanted to just park it there.

I think you guys would appreciate that.

But when the podcast is about to end, I'm
like, damn, I've got all these thoughts.

Now I have to say the thing that, so.

What you said earlier, two things
I wanted to pick up on, you're not

moving on because you're better.

I think that's very important, I
100% agree with that, I've done that.

Yeah, there's too much ego in that.

There's too much ego, it's poisonous.

Joe: And that's the American style.

It's false.

American, you can jump on Instagram and
they'll say, you gotta leave friends

behind, cause you're outgrowing them.

And it's like, fuck

you.

I

Sam: read, I read

Joe: that and I'm like, I don't know
if I'm heading in the right direction.

I have no idea.

Sam: That has, that sentiment has
resonated with me at times and then

other times it's struck me as very...

It's sociopathic almost.

Ali: The only time I think it's
appropriate is like when that other

person has been so mean and hurtful
and you don't deserve that treatment.

And that's different.

But whereas, but yeah, like just
cutting the dead weight just for the

sake of it because you deserve better.

That's just bullshit.

Like you're not any better than them.

I've

Sam: got better yoga pants
than these schmoes now.

I'm ready to move on.

It's like, I think that is
how some people look at it.

They're friends as they're accessories

Ali: in their life.

Because they're a
reflection of their success.

It's a very narcissistic sort

Sam: of view of it.

The whole of Sydney is like that.

Ali: We might have some Sydney
viewers who take a dim view of it.

Sam: No, but I think Sydney has that
reputation, certainly, and St Kilda

being our little Sydney in Melbourne.

There is a bit of that vibe sometimes.

Yeah, definitely

Joe: yoga pants.

Definitely if the yoga
pants aren't up to scratch,

Sam: I'm moving on.

100%.

But do you know what one of my
St Kilda type friends said to me?

Because he was born and bred there.

And he's a gay hairdresser.

It doesn't get much
more St Kilda than that.

Um, although he has had the
right wing turn recently.

But he put it to me like this one day, he
said, like, But I was at like a gallery,

and I was like, trying to talk about the
art, and then I just realised this person

was just like, judging me as like a...

As a Southsider and like I didn't know
what I was talking about and like I

just suddenly just like oh intellectual
snobbery that's a thing yeah and then

I was like yeah yeah yeah you for
sure that happened to you but but

I was like but you gotta understand
When I go Southside, I feel that same

thing coming back at me, but about
appearance, and like, tan, and like,

the clothing I'm wearing, or whatever.

Joe: Don't ever go to Sydney, Sam.

You'll be traumatised.

Sam: Oh no, I've been a few times, and I,
I enjoy feeling like a complete and utter

alien, and then I'm like, then I'm done.

Like, I'm ready to go.

But

Joe: you're about to get vulnerable, Sam.

You've been

Sam: cyphering.

Well, I'm getting there,
because, because I've...

I don't think I've been keeping
friends as accessories and like,

egotistically thinking of, I've
outgrown you, but if I had to be

honest, I have felt that way at times.

The evil twin of that feeling is, if
you're capable, put it this way, if

you're capable of looking at another
person that you've had intimacy and

mutual support with and then gone,
I'm better than you and I can move on.

The evil twin to that is.

Walking around imagining you're
worse than people and they're

looking at you that way.

And so just for your own sake, for my
own sake, any feelings of superiority

in this matter, get those out of there
because what's really happening is that

maybe you've had a piece of progress
in one area and you really do need to

not have that friendship there because
it's clouding something you need to do.

Okay, that's fine.

Or maybe you and that buddy drink too much
when you get together or whatever it is.

But that doesn't mean you've got
anything else at all figured out.

And I think that's tripped me
up a few times, Joe, so that

kind of resonated with me.

So that was the first thing.

And the other one is, as a kid that
got sent to boarding school at six, I

didn't, uh, well, you know, you had to
make your friends your family, right?

And you had to really, I had to
really learn to make do with what was

around, you know, and who was around.

And, so, friends became
important at a young age, right?

So it was a very big puzzle to me in
my 20s and 30s, but like you, easy to

meet people, and easy to even take it to
the next stage and the one after that.

But then, yeah, I would start hoarding
friends at times, and then at other

times, like, doing nothing with them.

Any of them, like not reaching out,
not taking the initiative, not asking

for things, not asking to hang out.

Like in theory, having a lot of people
I could count as friends, but not

actually feeling like I could reach
out to any of them for anything.

Ali: That's a very common sort of
experience of depression, which

I've certainly experienced in that.

Yeah.

You objectively, you could say,
yeah, you have all these friends,

but the fact you don't feel like
you could, you don't want to.

Impose upon them in any way and you feel
actually incredibly lonely and you're

like, I would never reach out to that.

I would never reach out, even though
you probably could, but you just don't

feel like you can in that moment.

I

Joe: was comfortable to ask
to move my house and I felt

awkward about all of them.

I felt privileged.

Uh, and maybe there was
probably could extend that list

a bit, but it's a good test.

Yes, it is.

My friend Eric from Alabama
says we find out who our

friends are when we move house.

Yeah, yeah.

You know.

Love that guy.

But what's interesting is I tried to
try out some rules, because I like

rules, at the start of the show.

Yeah.

And one of them was just don't
text or call people, they've got

your number, see what happens.

The only asterisk, and you put an asterisk
on it, and the only, the exception

that proves that rule is you, because
I would never have seen you again.

I don't think you were ever
going to text or call me.

And that's not because you're a bad
person or don't like me, it's just you.

Sam: Thought about doing it many
times, with you in particular,

so you're on a list of, like it's
not a long list of people that I

thought about contacting many times.

And didn't do it.

Ali: Yeah.

I've let friendships or potential
friendships go because of that

sort of, oh, I really like
hanging out with this person.

I really enjoy their company
or I really want to reach out,

but for whatever reason, I just
haven't been able to, to do that.

And so it's sort of fallen by the wayside.

I've certainly had that experience.

And I think it coincides with
various times in my life where

I've had poor mental health.

And yeah, but it's, um, yeah,
definitely can relate to that.

Yeah.

And then,

Sam: yeah, that's right.

And other, like, just this curious
feeling of like, it's so hard to

put into words, Oh, I'm feeling bad.

I don't need to, you know, I don't
want to bring anyone else down.

But then other times it's
like, Oh, everything's good.

I don't need anybody.

So it's kind of like in
fair weather or foul.

It's like the tendency to
reach out is just not there.

See, I have the opposite.

Joe: I have to delete people's number
because I will try three or four times

to catch up with them for a coffee
if I really like them as a friend.

This is male friends.

And I've done it.

I mean, I've deleted a million
girls numbers, but this time

it's like, I need to delete this
person's number because I can't.

Leave them alone.

Like, I remember one of
my friend's father died.

I reached out to him like, I
know what that's like, mate.

Do you want to get a coffee?

Ghost, you know, no reply.

And then you reach out three months
later about going to the footy, no reply.

And it's like, just stop.

Sam: So, you're offering different things.

Just stop.

Joe: But I lack...

Impulse control, especially when I'm
lonely, so even with male friends, this

is a new level for me, now I'm deleting
their numbers, and most of them could

probably, well, all of them have my
number, so it's actually fine, and it

might be a bit awkward if they texted
you out of the blue, you'd be like,

oh, who is this, because everyone knows
you don't lose numbers anymore, so

they know you've deleted their number.

But

Sam: you can say, sorry,
I delete numbers a lot.

If I'm pestering people, so you
might be one of those people,

Joe: you can just be honest.

I would recommend, this is my last
thing I'll say in this episode, I have

done a few times A phone contact audit.

Yeah.

And I've gone through every contact
in my phone and deleted anyone that

I'm not going to contact again.

Oh God, I should

Ali: do that.

And

Joe: it's so, cathartic.

Sam: Throw that

Ali: black book over the Hinge
Brothers and the Tinder Brothers

and the Bumble Brothers.

Oh yeah.

Sam: There's a good band name.

Yeah.

Joe: I mean, yeah, sure.

But like, yeah, those for sure.

But also just.

That person you worked with 15 years
ago, just get rid of it because

it'll clear up a bit of bandwidth.

You'd be surprised how cathartic
it is to be like, Oh, that

person's gone from my life.

Sam: Do you know what I like
about a lot of what you just said?

I think there's an increasing
alignment in the way you.

Think about friends and romantic
relationships, the kind of highly

separate male female thinking
that you've had over the years.

I think that's going away slowly,
and I think you're realizing that

it's the same dynamics in both cases.

A lot of the same needs, a
lot of the same dysfunctions.

You're de gendering all
this, which is good.

Joe: Yeah.

A friend of mine has advised me to expand
the category of dating out to connection.

That's right.

And that can be connection around
addiction recovery, connection

around sport, connection around...

Whatever, it can be friends, family,
and it includes, it's a category

that includes dating and sex.

Yeah.

Whereas I've always had a discrete
category which is just dating and sex.

Mm.

And then, I don't, yeah, I haven't
treated it as part of an extension

of the friendship side of my life.

Yeah.

That's right.

Um, ironically, I end up
with friends off dating apps.

Yeah, same.

And there's no one left.

Who's a sexual partner, so I've
got a couple of friends that I

made on dating apps, actually.

But also,

Sam: the connected realisation of some
of the same problematic behaviours

playing out in the so called platonic
space versus the romantic space,

and just g But that's neediness.

Joe: That's right.

And neediness is a sin,

Sam: you know?

Agreed.

And well, do you know what
the other sin, though, is?

I've come to understand my
understanding of, uh, what St.

Paul was getting at was that sin is
not like gambling the family fortune

away, I mean it is that, but the core
of it is The failure to love when you

could have and like I'm like, yes,
I think that's really important and

so and come to realize Yeah, I was

Joe: reading Eckhart Tolle last
night and he talks about sin as being

misunderstood as a term And it's actually
about you could be translated from

the ancient Greek as missing a target.

Yes,

Sam: failing to be a target.

That's right

Joe: That's exactly right.

It's a different and my neediness is
a sin Because, I'm annoying people who

don't want to hear from me, but what
I'm wanting is right connection, what

I'm doing is a sin because it's missing

Sam: the target.

Looking for the thing in the wrong
place, and me, looking for the

exact thing in the exact right
place, and then not acting on it.

So like thinking about having
a list of friends you could

Joe: think and thinking about particular
person you and gone out for coffee and

probably tried to problem solve the
whole thing and tell you get your shit

Sam: together and it
would have been great.

Ali: Yeah.

And I think that's the thing.

You're so pleasantly surprised when
those things do actually work out, but in

the moment it is actually very hard to.

Fathom that it would work out that
way, that you feel like you're a

burden or you're bothering them or
pestering them, or that you don't,

they, they wouldn't have the time or the
availability when most people and a real

friend will actually drop everything
and be there for you in a heartbeat.

Sam: A hundred percent.

And like, just re, re, like imagining not
a good or a bad outcome, just imagining

like whatever happens, it'll be fine.

It'll be manageable.

Like it's a, and you know, whether or
not you'd have problem solved all my

problems or not, it would have been,
and that's why sometimes I've had to

count on people reaching out and just
take that as the sign that it's time

to connect with another human being.

But it's a good thing also to put on
your grown up hat and do it for yourself.

Joe: All right, let's
leave it there, guys.

Thanks, Joe.

Thank you.

Thanks, Ali.

Thanks, Sam.

Cheers.