The Ten Thousand Things

Joe: There's reality,
which is loving awareness,

Sam: unconcerned by the arising
and passing away of phenomena.

Ali: And then there are the 10, 000

things.

Sam: Hello and welcome
to the 10, 000 Things.

My name is Sam Ellis.

I'm Joe Loh.

And I'm

Ali: Ali

Sam: Catramados.

And I just wanted to butt in, Joe, right
before you launch into the topic today.

This is a show with three neurodivergent
people grappling with reality and we

try not to be too boring about it and
we try not to be experts on stuff.

And just go with experience.

Joe: Yeah, I had someone, write
in and say they wanted us to

speak more about our diagnoses.

So I don't know if you want to do it
at the front of the show each week,

but I mean, we can do it briefly now.

I have a diagnosis of bipolar disorder.

That's it for me.

You guys have a bit more of a fruit salad.

Sam: yes.

Okay.

okay.

I'm in the middle, I guess, with less
acronyms than Ali, but more than you.

ADHD, where...

Working on the, learning more about the
ASD side of it for me at the moment.

What's ASD?

Autism Spectrum Disorder.

Yeah.

And, years before, you know,
generalized anxiety, you know,

persistent depression, um, gotten
a lot better in those two areas.

And so mental health much better
than it was, but now still the

sort of the challenges that come
with the neurodivergent, aspects.

Ali: Yeah.

And yeah, I am the fruit salad, so bipolar
and uh, premenstrual mood dysphoria,

um, and then, um, ADHD, ASD, and CPTSD.

Joe: Jesus Christ.

Yeah, I know.

If you could see her now, look at her.

She's smiling.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ali: She's serene.

She looks so put together.

I'm heavily medicated.

Joe: Yeah.

Nah, she's in a full matching tracksuit.

Yeah.

That's right.

Yeah.

Well, I don't know, guys.

Let's, let's have a meeting one day.

We've been talking about having
a meeting for months now.

Do we say that at the start of each show?

Is that Tiresome?

I don't

Sam: know.

Well, I just thought I'd, Preempt
things and, and save us all a meeting

and just jump in with it because I
think the feedback you got was good

and that, I mean, people like the
show in general, we're hearing really

wonderful things, like great little
reviews you guys are getting by text and

reposting to me, which just absolutely
makes my day and makes me, you know,

want to continue with this because I
feel like it's valuable for us, but it

seems to be valuable for other people.

But that specific idea Of, you
know, yeah, labelling ourselves,

but doing it consciously.

Yeah, I think, yeah,

Joe: let's come up with a concise way
to just say we're all neurodivergent.

Yeah.

And, if anyone wants to know
the lore, they can look it up.

That's right.

Yeah, um, look, what I said to that
person is, yeah, I'm happy to, we're

happy to mention neurodivergence more.

But, as a bipolar person, I
don't particularly want to

talk about bipolar every week.

Yeah.

I don't particularly want to talk
to you two about autism and...

Uh, ADHD every week, uh, what I noticed
from my own time in psych wards and

my own time working in psych wards
and being a patient is, the number one

topic on a psych ward is Spirituality.

The number two topic is probably politics.

Number three is probably philosophy.

That's what people on
psych wards talk about.

And I am a crazy person who wants to talk
about things that I find interesting.

I'm not someone who wants to talk
about mental health awareness.

I want to talk about what I
find interesting in the world.

Oh,

Sam: that's the last thing
people want to talk about in

the psych ward is mental health.

Yeah, exactly.

Joe: So I guess, look, that's my
little coda on what this show is.

It's like...

Three neurodivergent people talking
about purely just what interests us.

Yeah, exactly.

Um, but yeah,

Ali: like, can we bring that,
that lived experience to those?

Joe: If we were better at marketing
this show, we would lean into more

into that angle of the neurodivergence.

So maybe we can do that.

We can just do that in simple ways.

but yeah, that's, that's all
of our backgrounds and yeah,

let's get on with the topics.

Sam: Exactly.

We'll come up with a neat
way of saying it eventually.

Yeah.

so there's a wonderful quote here
from Emmett Fox, who I know nothing

about, uh, but I do like the quote
and I think there's an awful lot

here worth discussing, going over
old grievances mentally, thinking how

badly someone acted at some time, for
instance, and recalling the details.

Has the effect of revivifying that
which was quietly expiring of neglect.

Joe: Old grievances.

I agree.

I would use the word resentments.

Sure.

Emmet Fox is a Christian
mystic, I guess you'd call him.

He was a healer, Christian faith healer.

Sure.

That book came out in 1934 and I've
been, I read it and I've been re reading

it and actually sort of studying it.

It's kind of blown my mind.

But what I've brought in here is some
of the less, um, less miraculous stuff.

You know, just that one quote
I thought stood on its own.

Yeah.

Um.

It does.

Yeah, like how I got sober was to
understand, a huge part of it was to

understand how toxic resentments are,
and the place that I got sober, which

I cannot talk about on this show.

It is a place of many cliches and
one of the cliches, the cliche about

resentment is, having a resentment is
like drinking poison and expect someone,

expecting someone else to get sick.

Oh yeah.

Right.

Very true.

I don't know.

That's what I wanted to
throw out to you guys.

I have done nearly eight years.

Of thorough, thorough work on resentments,
and I can't say that I'm completely

resentment free, but honestly, I have
almost completely emptied out a head that

was full of resentments, you know, and the
reasons why that makes you drink Should be

obvious, but basically it's like fuck this
person I'm gonna get wasted over and over

again and the person changes or there's a
cast of people in your head and and you're

driving home from work and that what your
fucking boss said to you and fuck that guy

and yeah and pull into the bottle shop and

Sam: John Howard and

Joe: yeah sure yeah there's always
the big ones yeah yeah the big other

and then there's the ones in your
life and blah blah blah but like you

A handful of resentment is, that's,
you, you, you are ruining your life.

Oh, big time.

And there is no advantage to it.

No.

So, I don't know, yeah, I wanted to hear
what you guys thought about, going over,

I think you said going over old grievances
and replaying them in your head.

Oh yeah, I've

Sam: done it.

I've done it.

Yeah, I'm, I'm well on board with this
quote and everything it says, for sure.

Ali?

Ali: yeah, no, as someone who carried,
I suppose, a lot of, Resentments,

um, you know, sort of rooted in
trauma from when I was younger, um,

for many years and realizing how
Self destructive, those behave, that

turned into sort of certain behaviours
that were really self destructive.

So, rather than, mine wasn't, I mean
it was alcohol and drugs when I was

younger, but then as I got older it
turned into other things, whether it

was more around food and um, that's
another diagnosis, eating disorder,

um, or disordered eating I should say.

Oh, let's talk about that sometime, for

Sam: sure,

Ali: yeah.

Maybe ? No, no.

I mean, no.

No.

Okay.

Yeah.

In a general sense,

Sam: I was, I, I've things I'm
gonna share about that too, because

Ali: it's, um, it was really
what it looked like was Yeah.

Either too much or then really
restricting and controlling Yeah.

As a way of feeling out
of control in your life.

And then it becomes these
really destructive behaviors.

What's the resentment got to do with it?

So the resentment is, so the
feelings or the ruminating on

these horrible feelings and these.

So, you're carrying and
you cannot control it.

It is a complete lack of
control in, over that feeling

and it just is so overwhelming.

So you're a slave to it.

So one of the few things then it
manifesting will manifest it in for me.

Being able to control, which is
for a lot of people, particularly

a lot of women, but it's very
much controlling what you eat.

And so that's how it manifested
for me for years and for

Joe: decades.

Yeah, okay, I didn't know about that one.

So you agree that the resentment
is the root of some very

self destructive behaviour?

Very,

Ali: yeah.

The most self destructive
behaviour is when I was younger,

yeah, around drugs and alcohol.

Um, and then later in, particularly with
disordered eating, it was very much...

Yeah, rooted in resentment, and the
only way I was, and rather than like,

I suppose in the quote where it's sort
of, you know, where you almost forget

it, where he talks about forgetting
it, it's more, I had to talk about it.

with, in therapy, in a therapeutic
environment, in order to be able

to work through it, to let it go.

So it's sort of almost like exposure

Joe: therapy.

So you're disagreeing with
Emmett about the dying of neglect

Ali: thing?

Yeah, so I don't think, neglecting
it was sort of still letting it be

there and still giving it some sort
of power, whereas, and they talk

about exposure therapy, or like, you
know, talking about it, the monster or

the, the thing that you're scared of.

Diminishes.

Diminishes.

And it becomes.

Yeah, it's

Joe: less scary.

But can I say, but what if you
only talk about it in therapy?

Yeah, that works.

Yeah.

Because, this is, I've learnt
this the hard way, it's like...

If I'm carrying around a, I get a,
resentments also get obsessions with

people and if I'm carrying them around
and then talking to everyone about them,

which is, has been my style, was only when
I, they were dissected in therapy that

I was like, Oh, this is the appropriate
place to talk about these resentments.

Sam: If you do it to your friends, you're
placing them in a difficult position.

They think that their role as a friend
is to validate this thing that's

going on and then eventually they
might get tired of that and then they

feel an instinct to contradict you.

And then of course, just flatly
telling you, you know, yeah,

you're wrong and move on.

Not, not especially helpful either.

Uh, and then so maybe a really
clever friend will eventually

take on the role of a therapist.

in helping you to kind of get
some sort of perspective on it

that helps you to move through it.

Uh, and you know,
deconstruct what's happening.

But the therapist is the
person for that, not the

Joe: friend.

But I would say that's true of a big
resentment, like your big trauma.

Maybe we should separate the
two, resentments and trauma.

So what I would say is the
little resentments, the ones...

You've got your colleague at work or
yeah, those, those little ones, they

Ali: all sort of come from that same
sense of feeling out of control in

Joe: that situation.

But what I'm saying is maybe, and
I haven't been good at this, but

maybe what he's saying is right.

Maybe we can just let, so by being out
of the habit of forming resentments,

which is not kind of where I'm at now.

Yeah.

Mostly seeing them coming in.

They can just die of neglect.

Ali: Oh yeah, so you can
learn to right size them.

I think when you're in the
thick of it, you are...

So, you are feeling, even the small things
feel more intense than they actually are.

And you feel the perceived slight
by the colleague or your boss or

the injustice that you're feeling.

And they can quickly grow.

Yeah.

It can grow into this much bigger thing
than it actually is, but it's still,

cause it feels the same as the other
feeling as the big resentment, right?

They feel the same.

They feel like you're, yeah, it's
like it's something somehow you are

being, you know, it is this like
unjustified behavior towards you.

And.

And it's deeply unfair, and when you're
not in a place of actually learning

how to deal with the big ones, you're
still, you're dealing with them in

all the same way, so it's the same
excuse to drink, or to eat or not eat,

or whatever, or whatever your, the
behavior that manifests from that.

Excess.

Comes from, yeah, the lack.

It can come from even the slightest,
you know, perceived, you know, injustice

versus, you know, the really big ones.

And when you learn to get through
the big ones, you realize, Oh yeah,

you sort of do get to this place
of, well, actually that thing at

work is really not that important.

Like, you know, that, that
thing, that person really didn't,

you know, upset me in that.

You know, or I can get over that,
or, like, it right sizes those, you

know, I mean, they're annoying, and
you could, but yeah, but it's just

like, oh, well, but I'm not getting
paid to think about it right now.

Yeah, exactly, yeah, so you're just like,
oh, well, that person's a dickhead, or

we choose, you know, whatever, you know,
or that, yeah, that was a bit unfair, but

it's not the end of the world, versus...

When you, like I said, when you're
in the thick of it, everything feels

like, oh my god, this is another thing.

This is

Sam: another thing.

And you know what?

They might objectively be
completely wrong, but I'm not

going to let it ruin my life.

What about you, Sam?

Joe: Do you carry around a lot
of, well first, Ali, do you still

carry around a lot of resentments?

Um,

Sam: you can't be honest.

Ali: Yeah.

No, I, I, if I'm really honest, there's
still a couple of things I still

struggle with, but I, but again, that's
the therapy and it's still a process.

And I still feel like there's still
a couple of things I need to work

through, but I feel like the more
recent things and the things that,

you know, have got me down over the
last few years or whatever, I've been

able to handle in a much better way.

There's still a few things.

It's, you know, complicated
childhood stuff that just takes

a really long time to unravel.

And I just, you know, I mean, I've
been in therapy for over two years and

it's, I think, you know, a little bit
longer and, you know, but definitely

compared to what I was like 12 months
ago versus two years ago versus five

years ago, it's completely different.

Joe: Well, I would say as a blanket
statement and it's radical, it

is very radical, but I would say
if you can forgive all of those

people completely, that's right.

Not because they deserve it.

But because...

You deserve it.

Yeah, you will feel better.

Yeah, absolutely.

You will feel better.

And it's, it's, it's so
fucking hard with some of them.

Yeah.

But, like, it's, it's an uncompromising,
what I'm proposing is an uncompromising

and what Emmett's talking about and, you
know, the spirituality that I believe in

is a completely uncompromising approach
to forgiveness where you always forgive.

Yeah.

You know?

Well,

Sam: it's the essence of Christianity.

So, and we probably need to
get the religious DNA of this

statement out into the open.

Now that doesn't mean that, you
know, atheists or people like me,

agnostics, can't benefit from it.

Because I think it's all
coming from the same place.

The same psychological insight that Ali
just shared, I think, was expressed in a

different way in the Sermon on the Mount
or this Christian mystical tradition.

Um, but there are many other examples.

So, I won't, you know...

I know I won't sidetrack us by like, you
know, bringing in too many other examples,

but there's one worth mentioning, you
know, the Hare Krishna tradition that I

grew up in, it, one of the big things that
warned devotees against was cultivating

resentments against other people.

So that was like a big one.

It's like, this is going to get in
the way of your personal spiritual

progress and it's going to get in the
way of other people's progress as well.

If you spend your time.

You know, tearing other people
down, even if maybe there's some

justice in what you're saying.

Um, but you just, you know, going
around building your case against

people, which is something I
saw an awful lot of growing up.

And God help me, I've done
an awful lot of it myself.

Yeah.

Joe: Don't you think the, what I see, the
vast majority of world political systems

are built almost entirely on resentment?

Sam: Well, fascism thrives on it.

Yeah.

Ali: Yeah.

It's interesting, like one of

Joe: the...

Not just fascism, the left, I think more
of the left when I think of resentment.

Like, there's so much resentment.

Proper, proper,

Sam: proper positive action in
progressive politics doesn't...

Resentment is part of the mix
that helps to bring issues out.

Joe: Things are not
forgiven on the left though.

No, but we're...

Things are not forgotten
and they're not forgiven.

Sam: I'm sorry.

No, well sometimes you have to
keep the record on the record.

But I think that the best things
I've seen come out of politics is,

is at that point where you're like,
look, at this point, we're not about

dwelling on the grievances themselves.

We've found something positive and
useful that we think everyone should get

behind and as a way of making it better.

Which is...

Yeah.

Ali: Sort of, that's sort of the
take that my psychologist would say

is that there is justified anger.

Absolutely justified anger.

And because when I feel like angry
or resentful about, you know, things

that have happened and he's like,
you're absolutely justified to feel

that, but you still have to let it go.

But so, but what it is, is it's
not so much about letting it go.

The letting go happens naturally
when you then shift your focus

to the positives, correct.

In your life.

And that's, and that's
what I do in therapy.

So it's like, it's acknowledging,
okay, I'm angry about this

or I'm upset about this.

Oh, I don't have control over this,
but these are the really good things.

Let's focus on the really, cause, and
that's, you know, well, that would

come back down to like, you know,
mindfulness or, you know, gratitude

or whatever, however you, you practice
it and actually acknowledging the

really good parts of your life
and focusing on building those up.

So they become the bigger net, the
things you're focusing on and then

the things that are taking up that
bandwidth in your mind, rather than.

The, you know, the resentments,
you know, ruminating and taking

Sam: over.

It's clouding your energies.

It's robbing you of resources
you can use on other things.

And you know, what you're saying,
focusing on the positive, that might sort

of raise alarm bells for some people.

So I wanted to kind of probe
that a little bit more.

I was trying to think, okay, what
does that look like in my therapy?

And it's like, well, it's, it's,
it's building on the strengths,

the victories you've had basically.

Yeah.

And just continuing to move
forward with those, which usually.

Will involve me doing something like,
uh, going, well I've got an awful lot

of things to forgive people for, right?

And so I'll take your advice, Joe,
and I'll just do it here and now,

okay, everyone's forgiven, right?

but what made that so much easier for
me to even be in a position to like

acknowledge the truth of what you're
saying is realizing all the terrible

things I've done and, and feeling, yeah.

Feeling the appropriate

Joe: shame.

And, and I would say more than that.

Write it all down.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And tell someone Yeah.

Yeah.

Which is how I got sober.

That's right.

Wrote it all down.

All of it.

Everything that's ever happened, but.

The past is not here with us.

It's not here with us in this garage.

The past is something only
humans drag around with them.

It echoes

Sam: in our cells.

Oh, absolutely,

Joe: but, but, but we do always have a
chance to come into the present moment.

I agree.

Right?

But the more shit we drag around
with us, the less present we are.

Sure.

You know, so, I know that's hackneyed,
and the positivity, like, oh, Emmett, the

Christian mystic, The stuff that I'm re
reading and studying is actually about

positive thinking, and I've never read a
book on, this was a book on the sermon,

a book about the Sermon on the Mount.

I've never read a, I think I've
read one historical biography of

Jesus, um, but I've never read
anything about Jesus teachings.

But the thing that's blowing my
mind from Emmett Fox's book is he

talks about, apparently Jesus talked
about the secret place, and the

secret place is your consciousness.

And actually, liberation and
spiritual awakening happens at

the level of every single thought.

Sure.

And what's blowing my mind is
like, I'd gone somewhere along this

path and worried and focused on my
behaviors and actions in the world.

But I hadn't gone the final
measure, which is, I need to be

responsible for all of my thoughts.

And what Emmett would say is, if
your thoughts are horrible, You all

have a horrible life, you know, and
resentments are the ultimate horrible

thoughts because you're playing, you're
usually, you're focusing on horrible

things that have happened to you or
perceived horrible things and the

most horrible people in the world.

In their most horrible states.

And, and if that's in your secret
place as apparently I haven't read the

book, but apparently if that's what
Jesus called it, then that's will,

will manifest in your outer life.

It will, Emmett would go so far as
to say it'll manifest in illnesses.

Yes.

Yeah, it will.

It will.

It will make you

Sam: shrivel up all if that's true.

And it will get in you, it will get in
the way of your capacity to enjoy what's

there right now in the present, in the
middle of all of it, you know, instead of.

You know, Oh, I'm too busy feeling bad
about this when these children right

here, yeah, they need my attention and,
and something good could be happening

right now if I just allowed it.

Yeah.

But I'm too busy feeling that I'm, I'm
right, I'm in the right and I'm going

to continue rehearsing the, the case
that I have for being in the right

and it's like, who's this helping?

It makes you

Ali: bitter.

It just makes you really bitter.

Like, and I've watched.

Like working in aged care for a number
of years and some people who, you

know, they talk about getting bitter
in their old age and they really...

And I've genuinely observed that in
that they've, they let those thoughts

just, they become the narrative, the
narrative that all that, because, you

know, their friends have passed away.

Their family's passed away.

Their partner's passed away.

The kids don't want to come and see
them anymore because they're just.

Yeah.

No.

And it's just, and so it's just these
horrible, it's just this horrible

festering sort of bitterness and
resentment towards the end of their life.

And I just, I could not
think of anything worse

Sam: for myself.

Yeah.

It's bad enough to have wasted this much
of my twenties, thirties and forties, you

know, it's like, let that be an end to it.

Yes.

Yeah,

Ali: absolutely.

Absolutely.

Like, yeah, so much

Sam: wasted.

Well, actually, as my therapist would
say, Oh, sorry, buddy, you kind of wasted.

A lot of your childhood also,
your teenage years, he says, Oh,

you think it's this recent stuff?

No, you got to go way back.

And you know, that's the thing, like
the stuff you have to forgive the most

is often the most distant in time.

And you know, you might have the least
clarity about it because you know,

you're only a child and you know, trying
to understand, we've talked, we've

covered this on the pod before, but
man, yeah, it really is worth repeating.

Uh, when I became a parent, uh, I
immediately, almost immediately began

having, like, a lot of intrusive
thoughts that were very tough to deal

with and, you know, women are fairly
accustomed now, still a bit of a taboo,

to talking about postnatal depression,
um, but I think maybe, maybe we're less

comfortable with, you know, not just
the organic depression that sometimes

occurs, but just like acknowledging, oh
man, I immediately started enacting bad

habits that I learned from my parents
and everyone has to go through that and

you, and you have to notice them and
then you feel like a horrible person

and you don't want to forgive yourself.

You feel all this shame.

Oh my God, I've done all this
damage that can never be undone.

It's like, well, on the grand scale,
you've not messed it up that badly just

yet and continue focusing on, you know.

The control you have now, you know, and,
and not renouncing it to, because, you

know, like having the revelation fairly
early on, like changing a nappy about

six months old in the middle of the
night and like suddenly remembering the

experience of someone changing my nappy.

What?

You can remember that far back?

It's like, it's, well, it's a very, it's
like, it's a memory is the right word.

But it doesn't resemble even like
the five year old memories I've got.

It's like it was through sensation,
because my hands were cold, right?

And I'm sleep deprived and
there's all this, you know, like

in a very suggestible state.

And all of it, my son's body
reacted to like the coldness of my

hands in the middle of the night.

And all of a sudden I had like
a sense memory of cold hands.

Like, and I, and like.

Uh, and actually, this is not so
bad, I also had a memory of like

doing a way in the middle of that
and it like, like, and I was like,

Oh wow, it's all coming back to me.

And then like, and then I had this
sudden realization that like, Oh, I

am my parents and they were me and he
is, this child is me and I'm, okay.

It's like the illusion of the
separate self, the separate, you

know, the illusion of the You
know, we're all individuals, right?

So feeling that like epic cosmic
connection to like all the generations

before and to the one coming
after me, I was like, Oh, okay.

That was a really big help.

And that one, that was like my acid
moment without acid, just, it happened

early on in the experience of parenting.

Thank God for that because that was
the key that started to unlock all the

other stuff and then going, Oh man,
my parents made so many mistakes and I

go, Oh God, I've got to forgive them.

Ah, I understand, but then I was given the
equipment to understand at the same time.

Oh, I can see why they
made these mistakes.

Ah, okay.

Now it's, once you begin to, once you
realize this is very therapy stuff,

once you realize you can get better and
that you want to get better, that's it.

It's all possible after that.

Still takes a lot of

Ali: work though.

So much work, like you just think,
okay, I've talked about it, I'm

done now, I'm good, I'm well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then it's just

Joe: so much work.

I mean, I had a period this year
where, you know, I'd gone into

therapy and I had known that my dad
had fucked his life up and died.

So that was obvious.

Yeah.

But I'd always protected
my mum in my own mind.

And then what became obvious was that
mum had sort of fucked things up as well,

which is the ultimate therapy cliche
I guess, but then it led to some hard

conversations with my mum and a bit of
tension, but then I had to look again

in the present moment and who's standing
before me is this kind little old lady.

Who loves me unconditionally, and
only wants the best for me, with

clearly her own horrific trauma
history, much worse than mine.

And it's like, it took a few months,
and it wasn't, I just, I didn't even

have resentments, I had, my therapist
and I had to dig them up, have a look

at them, I didn't even know they were
there, have some hard conversations

with my mum on some long walks.

Feel all the uncomfortable feelings,
and then, back into the present

moment, completely forgive the past.

And I think it goes to what you
were saying, and maybe that's

where Emmett's got it wrong, is now
it's a different peace between us.

It's a peace after some
conflict, you know?

It's not this peace based with
simmering resentment, that's so deep

down, because you can't hate your mum.

So, so deep down that, like, why am I
shitty after five minutes in a company?

And then, in the hard conversation,
she said, well, you've always seemed

to have this bitterness towards me.

And in my mind, no, no, I
love you unconditionally.

I have no bitterness towards my mum.

My dad fucked his life up and died.

Mum is the rock.

Mum always, you know, was there,
did the right things financially.

Sam: So you're being unfair
to her there, when you won't

admit to the resentment, you

know.

Joe: But yeah, it was never
a human picture of her.

And then once what the therapy revealed
is, is her shortcomings, and the ways

in which she fucked me up as a kid.

And now I have, I mean, I spoke to
her on the way here to record this,

like I have a good, solid relationship
with her, but some stuff's been

aired, some stuff's been dealt with.

and then the forgiveness
is the crucial part.

That's, the action is
actually in the forgiveness.

The action is not in
the digging up the past.

It's what people don't get
about therapy, I think.

It's like, well, why do I
want to dig up dirt on my mum?

I kind of get why you
don't want to do that.

But when you dig it up, you're
willing to have the hard conversation

and then you're willing to forgive.

It's like, suddenly, you're in a new
realm of that relationship, you know,

which is nice, which I get to do that.

My mom's in her seventies, you know, I get
to do that as part of our life together.

So thank God for therapy in that, in that
respect, but I wouldn't say it was easy.

And there was a time for a few
months this year where I was

really fucking angry at my mom.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, but I never allowed
that for myself as a teenager

or when that shit was happening.

I dig it.

Sam: I dig it.

Yeah.

I had a, not quite the same cause I can't
talk to her, but you know, I uncovered.

The fact that, Oh man, no, I
actually am really cross at this

person and yeah, it was good.

It's good to do it.

Um, essential.

Look, if you want to honor the
person and honor yourself, like it's

it, you have a duty to the truth.

You do like

Ali: a complete picture of
that person and faults and all.

And that's right.

It's going from that stage of childhood
idealism that we want to have of our

parents and them being right because
they're supposed to be the protectors and

to keep us safe and, you know, so it's
an idealized version and then realizing,

oh, hang on, they've made some mistakes
or they're imperfect people too and,

and yeah, getting to a place of, okay,
well, what impact has that had on me?

And that's the exploration
that you have in therapy.

But then, yeah, moving past that towards
forgiveness and going, okay, well,

They did the best they could with the
tools they had, or the understanding of

why they made the decisions that they
did, even if they were the wrong ones.

and yeah, moving to a
place of real forgiveness.

Like, I mean, I've certainly...

with my mum, which, you know,
over the years we had a very, say,

tumultuous sort of relationship.

But like, you know, in the last,
particularly the last few years in

therapy, it's been, and also I think
for herself and the work that she's

done on herself and her understanding
of herself, it's been huge for both

of us and understanding, I think
actually just having diagnoses

for both of us and understanding.

Oh, okay.

There are reasons for these things.

It's not that this person actually
intentionally, a lot of the stuff

that we had done or the hurt that
we caused each other was so much

to do with the behaviors around our
diagnoses, rather than actually, it was

never anything malicious or anything,
you know, intentional about it.

It was always just, you know, rubbing
each other the wrong way, basically.

And, you know, and.

Yeah, and so, so much of that we've
been able to move past from, and

it's been, relationships entirely
different now than it was five years

Joe: ago.

Have you forgiven her?

Yeah.

Have you forgiven your father?

Best so.

Does he listen to

Ali: the show?

He does, he has, yeah.

He has.

Yeah, yeah.

Look, he would understand.

Yeah, like, there's, there's
absolutely forgiven him in, in

so many ways with so many things.

And there's still a few things, like
I said, you know, that are still,

you know, still working through.

And I know he's got.

I don't know that he'll ever be
able to forgive me for the things

he's perceived, um, or things of me.

So, um, so there is still that
tension between the two of

Joe: us.

Because, because I didn't know
that I had any issues with

my mother, I have created...

25 years of resentments in
my relationship with women.

And I need to go out somehow and ask for
forgiveness, but God knows none of them

are going to listen to this podcast.

Well, they might.

And God knows I don't know how to
switch that part of me off that

is fucking up those relationships.

But if I didn't think it was of...

Sam: I mean, I do.

No, I do.

The amount of work you put in
to trying to, he's like, one

day even just spelt it out.

Look, put it on me.

Like literally the bitterness, the
resentment, the anger, the abuse

that you want to give to this person.

Just give it to me.

It's what you're doing anyway.

You're just doing it in passive
aggressive ways instead of like

coming at it, you know, like go at it.

I can take it, you know, and,
you know, and just going just

a little bit of the way in.

Yeah, I'm gonna, yep, all right.

I'm going to tell the truth about the
folks and not just them, other adults.

Okay.

Now I'm going to defend them and just,
you know, I had to watch me put up

the walls and start defending them.

And it's like, okay.

All right.

Well, you have to ask yourself,
who are you protecting here?

What are you protecting?

You know.

Why are you defending this?

And as everything in therapy does, in
my opinion, it all eventually leads

back to some sort of self protection,
like the things you're doing.

Yeah,

Ali: absolutely.

That's exactly what my
psychologist would say.

It's just your brain has decided
to do this because it needed to

keep you safe in that moment.

And that's what was keeping you safe.

Sam: Your brain's decided to do what?

To maintain the illusion that
the parents were good after all.

Ali: So, for you, your protection
was having an idealised version of

your mother, was to keep, kept you

safe.

Sam: It wasn't about being nice to
her, it was serving your purposes.

Ali: It was serving your, yeah, it
was like, if my mum's, like, there's

nothing wrong with my relationship with
my mum and my mum's great, she's, you

know, and it's an idealised version
of her that keeps you safe in that

you've had the parent that you needed.

Joe: But most people would
never unpick that, right?

Sam: Well, yeah, of course.

Yeah, unless you go therapy.

Yeah.

Or they've got a very, very...

Clever friend who makes just the
right remark at the right time

and it starts something, you know,
it's gotta be a bit more thorough.

There are, there are sometimes
processes that can occur organically.

I will say that does happen
sometimes, but everyone, if you're

listening to this is ringing any
bells at all, just go to therapy.

Don't wait for the organic
accident to happen.

Yeah, take charge.

. Yes.

. I guess

Joe: I could get, yeah, I've never
really thought about how much time.

I spent with those two humans
from the age of 0 to 18.

Well, I moved out of home the day I turned
20, so the exact first 20 years of my

life, like, the shit, that's what came
to me, was like, my god, like, the shit

that was going on when I was a teenager.

And, and I very early, at a very early
age, went into like, drug use, like,

smoking weed, and if you're smoking
weed and hanging out with your friends,

and Listening to Hendrix properly
for the first time and just sort

of blowing your mind and whatever.

Yeah, I remember it.

Then if, if other things are going
on with the adults, like who gives

a f Yeah, like the adults are
letting me smoke weed in the house.

Yeah, I'm having all the friends over.

I'm bipolar So the weed is doing like
much more for me than it's doing for them.

Yes, and the Hendrix Yeah,
and like that's what I did.

I checked out man Things are things
got rough around 15, 16 and I just

checked out with drugs dissociation
and I kept that going for 10 years and

then I checked out with alcohol for 10
years and then I stopped and then Five

years after that, I started therapy.

But by the time I got to therapy, I had
this addiction recovery understanding

of the importance of resentment.

So, I'd done a lot of grunt work.

Um, but the mother stuff
was still very hidden.

And how it impacts my relationships
with women, I still...

You guys would probably have
a better read on that than me.

From the inside, I can't...

I know that it's there.

But I, I know, and I know it's
probably the key to the whole series

of unfortunate events, but I, I, I, I
can't put it all together and at the

moment I can't afford more therapy,
so I'm on a break until next year.

Sam: Well, maybe, I mean, maybe
I can help out a little bit.

Uh, Ali, Ali, do you, I feel like...

Ali: No, I just, I was just going
to say, like, I think, like,

to come back to that point of,
like, I've been keeping you safe.

And I think that is really
the root of all of my,

Joe: yeah.

Oh, so maybe I'm looking for another
woman to perform the same role.

Ali: That will keep you,
that will, it'll somehow...

That makes sense actually.

You need

Sam: to be the safety
that the mother wasn't.

Ali: Yeah, and it'll be...

Need them to be the safety.

And you'll be safe when you're in
this loving, stable relationship.

Oh, but that person

Joe: they never existed
in the first place.

Well, that's

Sam: the problem.

So instead of...

Making her the safety that you
thought you had with the mother or

maybe you're a little bit wiser and
you're like you're going to be the

safety that I didn't have with the
mother, but the further insight...

Ali: How can you make

Sam: yourself safe?

Yeah, that's exactly right.

Joe: Ah, and my answer to that is God.

Yes, or drugs and alcohol, that's right.

Well now it's God, so now it's a higher
power and I place my emotional security

in the hands of my loving higher power.

Well, I'm having a...

Deepening relationship with, and I will
no longer ever hand that over to a woman.

That's the plan.

Yeah.

Sam: Or, or, or for that matter to,
you know, your guru cult leader or

to, you know, whoever, but yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

Cause everything, everything's deeply
parental, you know, if you buy into like

the Western psychoanalytical tradition,
which I do, but, uh, and you know, I can

find evidence for that elsewhere too.

But the further insight that I was
actually going to mention, though,

I mean, Ali, excellent point, but
the other bit I was going to mention

was, okay, so you, you are now going
to play out the safety that I had.

Oh, the safety I didn't have.

Oh, but what's actually going
to get played out is the

thing that actually happened.

Yes,

Ali: exactly.

Cause that's, what's familiar.

Cause that's what,

Joe: like a tumultuous
relationship between

Ali: two adults.

Cause that's what you've witnessed.

That's what feels normal to you.

That's what feels safe to
you because that's what.

It's incredibly

Joe: depressing.

That just says to me, I should just,
it's incredibly depressing because that

just says to me, I should just lock
myself in my room and never go outside.

This and God knows I promote this on
dating apps and women go and listen to it.

Um, yeah, who listening to this would
want to date me if I'm walking around

with a tumultuous relationship that
I'm looking to play out again and again

Sam: and again.

They just heard you have a revelation.

You're one step ahead of
where you were before.

Joe: And so what you do, a few
steps ahead of a lot of fucking

guys in this town, exactly.

And so

Ali: when you get to this place where you
then you're so aware of, Oh, like, you

know, they talk about like the red flags
or whatever it is you want to call them.

But then when you then meet somebody.

And then you start to see these certain
dynamics that feel really familiar, like

I know how this is going to play out.

Sometimes they feel comfortable.

They feel really comfortable and
they might feel really good even.

Or they might trigger

Sam: you a second later.

Exactly.

Ali: And so, but what they, you
realize is this is not good for

me or this is not healthy for me.

I'm not going to date.

And you make, consciously make the
decision to not engage in that.

Or you like, I see all these other
good qualities in this person.

I'm not going to engage in these dynamics,
this is how I'm going to be in this

relationship and whether that person
can then match that and it's healthy.

You can consciously choose to have
your relationship in a different way

to what you, feels instinctual to you.

Hmm.

And that's the thing, it's actually
undoing what feels instinctual, and that

instinctual behavior is created through,
yeah, childhood, and parents, and trauma,

and witnessing their marriages, and all
that sort of stuff, you can, all of that,

yeah, it, it, you, you can make, and I,
I mean, as a, If I look at the evolution

of my significant relationships and sort
of my first major relationship, a lot

of, you know, it wasn't exactly like my
parents, but like, it was, it played out

quite similarly, the dynamic, because,
and I, I realized after the fact, like,

oh wow, that was so similar, but, and
the, the next significant relationship

I had after that looked quite different,
but there was still elements of that.

And then I've.

The people I've dated, you know,
after that, it's looked less

and less and less like that.

So...

Evolution's the right word.

Yeah, it really is.

It's an evolution.

And so, you know, I'm now at a place where
I'm going into a relationship with...

A very different view of what
I want, what I expect, what

I think is healthy, like, um,

Joe: and...

Yeah, it's really annoying.

I'm not happy for you.

Ali's like, oh, he's like, oh, I've
got a feeling, I've got a feeling,

I'm just gonna download this dating
app, I'm gonna swipe once, oh,

I'm gonna meet the perfect guy.

Oh my god, before we've even met.

This is perfect . And then, oh, now
we've met, oh, everything's still perfect

and cut to like over two months later.

Yeah, everything's still perfect.

I'm like, oh man, fuck you Ali like,
just like, where did this come from?

She's done less therapy than me.

Clearly.

This is, this is fair.

Everything she's saying
is like, it's like.

She's just graduating uni and
I'm in primary school from

like therapy understanding.

And now she's like having a
happy relationship and I'm

in no way happy for her.

The competition.

I'm getting a resentment on Ali just

Sam: for being happy.

It's so fair.

I feel it too.

No, the, I think that's exactly right.

We can easily get caught up in the battle
to be more evolved and more mature and

like, Oh, my psychotherapy is going great.

How about yours?

Mine's

Ali: Yeah, well, I mean, it's certainly
not a competition and like, I cannot, I,

I mean, for all of, it is so much, like,
as you said before, it is such hard work.

I wouldn't wish it on anybody, like
the, the, the, the amount of pain and

reliving trauma and talking about all
of that and how hard that has been.

I wouldn't wish that on

Joe: anyone.

Yeah.

But you got yourself into the place
where you potentially could be at the

start of quite a good relationship.

Yeah, it's possible.

Whereas I'm still
stumbling around no closer.

I don't know.

I,

Sam: I don't agree.

I think it's just very
hard to see the progress.

You've got to remind yourself.

That's, that's

Ali: when I, I mean, I get bogged
down with that too sometimes where I

feel like I'm not, I'm floundering.

I'm not doing all the things that I
said or wanted to do because I've always

had I keep falling short of my ideals.

What's happening?

Unrealistic expectations of myself
without having any understanding of my

own capacity or what even A normal, like
anybody's capacity, but no, I can do that.

I can, you know, I let

Sam: alone such cripples as

Ali: us.

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

And with all the limitations and,
and just, and being, and being very

human, I just have always had these
unrealistic expectations of myself.

And so I always, you know, feel
like I'm falling short and that's

the thing that my therapist always
comes back to is this like, yeah, but

look at you a month ago, six months
ago, a year ago, and it is, it is.

It's huge, that change.

Last week, goddammit.

Yeah, like there is changes every week,
like really positive things, really small

things, but it's all in, and it's not
linear, but it's in the right direction.

And I was actually talking with a
friend about this the other day,

you know, you'd had a setback and.

You know, we, yeah, it was
like, recovery is not linear.

You are going to have setbacks,
but you, it's still, it's still on

the scale of things moving in the

Sam: right direction.

It's so easy to lose hope, even with a

Ali: small setback.

Yeah.

You could be doing 99 percent of the
things you need to be doing and it's

completely human to mess up one of them.

and you feel like, oh my God,
it's, you know, I'm gonna throw

the baby out with the bath water.

But it's not, yeah, it's, it's
like, okay, the real progress is

getting to the point of understanding
and accepting this is where I am.

I just need to just move forward.

This is where I am the next day.

Ah, and that's exactly how, yeah.

I mean, it CA lot of around the
eating disorder stuff, it comes back.

It's that same mentality
and that same thinking.

It's just.

You know, this is the next meal and
it doesn't matter what's happened

earlier in the day or yesterday or
last week or last year, you have to

play each shot, each shot as it comes.

And it really comes down
to each meal you have.

It's a conscious, it's very, it takes
up a lot of bandwidth and it's very

much, you know, a huge thing that, yeah.

And it, it's so, it's like watching,
like, you know, particularly with

eating disorders and how that mirrors.

It's the behaviours, all those, that
thought pattern of all that other

sort of self destructive behaviour.

It's very much, it's
yeah, it's a mirror of it.

Sam: And don't you think when you
first get, start to get that sense of

an insight into how it's all connected
and how it's actually, oh, it's the

same organic process taking place with
these different dysfunctions, at first.

It's overwhelming and you go, Oh
no, no, no, no, it's, it's all, Oh

no, it's all tied too much together.

It's, it's inextricable, um, trapped.

So, at first, when you start to get
an insight into your condition, your

behaviour, your suffering, and you know,
the, the things you're perpetuating

on yourself, it can, because of that
greater insight, feel inescapable.

I think my theory, personal
theory there is, it's very...

It's scary at first when you're
letting go of the fantasies and

letting go of the fantasies that,
well, it leaves you feeling vulnerable.

The fantasies are protecting
you, but it's fantasies that

get in the way of forgiveness.

It's fantasies that keep you in
resentments because resentments

are a form of fantasy.

When I understood that, like,
you know, from, um, some reading

I did on Lakan, the subject is
entertaining all these fantasies.

And, uh, they're negative and they're
positive, but they're all useless alike.

So whether you've got this, you
know, this person's demonic, this

person's saintly, or you're demonic
or saintly, or you're an exalted being

or a lowly being, all of it's fantasy
and like the desire to continually

retreating into fantasy, we have to
just keep pulling ourselves away from

Joe: it.

And I had a breakup 18 months ago and have
gone, you know, I've just been trapped.

Yeah.

What in, in, in fantasies, uh,
replaying things like Emmett said,

just over and over and Revivifying.

There's no more revivifying
to do on with that person.

You know, I did, I did a six month
relationship and 18 months of

revivifying, you know, but, but clearly,
clearly there's more that that last

relationship came to represent every
single relationship previous to that.

And all encapsulated in this one person
who, you know, never asked for that.

Um, but it's, it's, that's
what I mean about dragging

myself into the present moment.

Yes.

But, but it's a perfect example
because whether it's my therapist or

my friends, God knows I never need
to talk about that person again.

It's not like there's some unspoken...

It's not like there's something that
needs to be brought out into the light,

it's all been brought out into the light.

The answer

Sam: doesn't lie there.

Over and over again.

The answer doesn't lie there.

Joe: The series of events that happened
across six months have been dealt

with thoroughly in therapy and dealt
with thoroughly with my friends.

So if these images keep coming back to me.

That's, that's where it's, PTSD,
but that's at the point where I

think it just needs to be neglected.

Well, no, that's right.

You know what I mean?

Rather than, than
constantly brought up again.

Well

Sam: to be, so to be full circle back
to what Ali was getting at, I think

what you're getting at early, tell me
if I'm wrong or right, um, sometimes

we're not in the position yet.

for it to be neglected organically
and for it to just organically decay.

And so when we neglect something, what I
think what Emmett's getting at is that we

refuse to water that plant of resentment.

And we refuse to give it
sunlight and nutrient.

And we recognize that we've
been feeding it and we make a

commitment to stop doing that.

And when we catch ourselves doing
it, okay, I'm just going to stop.

Joe: But also, what's the lesson?

And the lesson is...

Yes, no more with making
a woman my higher power.

Yes, of course.

No more with that.

Yes.

Like, and it, maybe I needed to
think about it so much to finally

come to this, this final conclusion
of like, all right, like, okay,

that's not where my safety lies.

No.

It never has been, and it never will be.

And there is no safety anyway,
cause I'm going to die,

Sam: so.

That's right.

Renounced safety.

It's a tough thing to say
to people, man, isn't it?

Joe: Renounced security.

Sure, but then the other part which
I didn't have until I read Emmett's

book is the positive thinking,
which is so corny and American and

Instagram that I hate it on one level.

He's almost talking about
manifesting, actually.

So he goes, but, for some reason,
because it's a weird 1930s American text,

Sam: It's slightly more palatable.

It's more

Joe: palatable to be like, okay, so
Jesus Christ talked about the secret

place, and in my secret place, I
need to put some positive thoughts.

There's the old spiritual,
which I think Tom Waits sang.

As well, which is always
keep a diamond in your mind.

Yeah, so all I've done for the
last couple of weeks is on a few

things that come to mind a lot.

I've had some very simple, positive
images that I've been putting not in

place of the, the train of thought.

This happens to you guys too.

I'm sure the train of thought is so fast.

Yeah, yeah.

It's an express.

Yeah.

So by the time you start the
train of thought, it's like, ooh.

There goes the train of thought.

Here it goes.

Yeah.

At the end, I place the diamond.

Yeah.

At the end I do the simple image about
that particular, and I only have mostly,

I only have four or five trains of
thought that are, that are habitual.

Mm-Hmm.

At the end, I just.

A future ideal, a future ideal
of a simple image where something

positive is happening in that area.

Great.

Right, and it's had this fantastic
effect, I feel, a lot better.

The

Sam: patient must devise their own
medicine and repeatedly self administer.

Who said that?

I did.

But

Joe: he did the quotation voice!

Well, it,

Sam: I, well, because,
it was a funny story.

Joe: I thought you were
going to say it was Freud or

Sam: something.

Well, no, it was my proudest
Twitter moment, my only one really.

I was reading a bunch of Lacan tweets
and there was a great one from the

Lacan Circle of Australia or whatever.

And it was about, yeah, the
therapist doesn't have the medicine.

Alright?

And don't be telling the patient
that you have the medicine.

Don't be letting on in any
way you have the medicine,

like they've got the medicine.

It was basically the upshot of the quote.

It was all lacan and wordy
and unnecessarily obscure.

So I replied.

So you're saying the patient must
devise their own medicine and repeatedly

self-administer and they, they,
they retweeted and I was like, yes,

Joe: yes.

Retweet from the Australian Macan

Sam: Society.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was like, oh, a bunch of
psych nerds, psychology nerds.

Like endorsed my statement
like I'm a master now.

Um, but what I took, but I think I did
understand what it was getting at, and

I've gone and read a bit more about
it and I think I understand it that.

Yeah, the therapist obviously does
have expert knowledge and they are

there as a kind of, you know, guide
and a coach and, you know, as you've

discussed, like a coaching relationship
and they are pointing you back to

positive things and building up your
strategies and there's all the sorts,

sort of specialities and skills
they've got that they can bring to it.

But at the end of the day, you found this
little thing for yourself and you did it.

And it worked.

And you decided it worked.

Oh, someone

Joe: gave me the book.

Sam: Okay, sure, but you
had to decide to act on it.

Yeah.

And you put your own unique
practice in place when you did it.

Joe: Everything led up
to me being wide open.

To Jesus Christ's words.

Sure.

No, I love it.

I love it.

The honesty.

Years of pseudo Buddhism and
years of addiction recovery.

You just needed some proper Jeebus.

And the ground was being
laid the whole time.

Once you go Jeebus, you never go back.

I picked up this book on
the Sermon of the Mount.

And it just went straight in.

Yeah.

Like no resistance.

Man, this happens to people all the time.

No resistance.

It's just like, and now I've gone back
through and I'm just highlighting and

it's like half the books is highlighted
because I'm like, Oh my God, these

are my, and it's, and it's actually
a lot like the quote we read out.

It makes perfect sense.

The stuff that doesn't make sense is the
stuff with, with Jesus in the, in the

words and all the, so I would never send
those quotes to people much, but like.

I don't know.

I'm not gonna, I'm also not
gonna go read the Bible, but,

Sam: well, most of it's not
worth reading, honestly.

Joe: It had to be weird.

And it had to be weird.

But he says that too.

He says, forget about the old.

He does . He says, you know, but
he says that Jesus says, forget

about the Old Testament God, the
old, there is no vengeful God.

There is only be a loving That's,
and the loving God is only right

here in the present moment.

He, yes.

Yes.

And he's always been here with you.

That's why I keep, and you have
to have a direct experience

and you do not need a church.

Mm-Hmm.

. That's what's on offer, and
that makes perfect sense to me.

So he's a Quaker?

Ali: Was he a Quaker?

Uh,

Sam: no.

Emma, he sounds like a Quaker.

He sounds like a Quaker.

Ali: Well, he's

Joe: not a Quaker.

He's no church.

All he mentions the Quakers, he mentions
every church and says every church

has it wrong, because Jesus did not
preach a doctrine, is what he's saying.

That's a bit of a rabbit hole,
I think we should probably wrap

it up, I've got a headache.

It's a beautiful rabbit hole.

Sam: Ali's DNA of Emmett, yes,
he's a mystic and he's gone

down his own rabbit hole, but...

There will be a theological
trace there somewhere to

Joe: be happy to be a Quaker if that's

Sam: all I want.

It doesn't mean go be a Quaker,
but like, it's just an interesting

resonance with what they were saying.

But, but, but, but,

Joe: well, I guess what I'm
saying is spiritually, which

is very hard to talk about.

Sure.

Especially with a couple of,
with an atheist and an agnostic.

Spiritually it makes, this
book makes perfect sense to me.

It makes perfect sense of my
phenomenological experience of

spirituality as a direct present
moment sense of being loved

and supported by something.

And he would say that's
all Jesus was describing.

However, it goes further.

You have to get yourself right in the
secret place, which is your consciousness.

You

Sam: have to look after your

Joe: consciousness.

It's not enough for me to sit here
and say nice things to you, Sam,

and you, Ali, and secretly hate you.

I have to have only
positive thoughts about you.

Or I have to associate with someone else.

But I can't do both.

I can't secretly hate you both.

And the illusion is that I'm getting
away with those nasty thoughts.

What Emmet's saying is, no,
no, you pay a price for all

Sam: your horrible thoughts.

And that's why Jesus was, he was
on about radical forgiveness.

I mean, like leaving aside the historical
issue existing or not, it doesn't matter.

The teachings are there.

Radical forgiveness, you
know, turning the other cheek.

Oh, and like, that is this, the words are
so cliched, but like, I mean, literally.

In the theology, as I understand
it, it's like this person is, you

know, horribly oppressed by the Roman
Empire and, you know, so all these

other people and it was a tough time.

And they're literally going to
nail him to a cross and he's going

to go, yep, no, it's all good.

You do what you got to do, man,
you know, like that's how far

they're going to go with it.

Yeah.

And it's like, that's
a level of forgiveness.

None of us here could even begin
to contemplate, or perhaps you

can begin to contemplate it.

Yeah.

But I think what's so powerful about
that, it's like victory in death.

It was how one theologian
explained it to me.

But to me,

Joe: yeah, but the Jesus
story makes it insane.

It's a complete surrender.

It is.

It's insane unless you've experienced
some Christ consciousness.

Well,

Sam: no, no, no, no.

Zizek, Zizek would say...

No, no, no, all of this makes
perfect sense from an atheist

psychological point of view.

Well, I keep pointing you
back to Zizek and Lacan.

But

Joe: I'm understanding spirituality.

And

Sam: Freud, Freud came out
of a biblical tradition

Joe: in his own way.

But I'm understanding spirituality
experientially in my whole...

Being, of course, so that I can understand
suddenly what Jesus is saying because

I'm having an experience with it.

Was he?

No, he wasn't.

I wouldn't try to intellectualize
it and explain it.

Well, no, we're trying
to do that right now.

Well, I'm trying to avoid doing that.

What I'm saying is I picked up this
weird book from the 30s and it all went

straight in and in under two weeks, my
thinking has become vastly less toxic.

Sam: Makes sense, makes sense.

So,

Joe: if that leads me down the
path to become a Christian, I

actually don't care, because all I
want is to not be in so much pain.

And fear.

Fear and pain be gone, you know?

And maybe Jesus was my homie the
whole time and I was trying to find

it with sexual partners, you know?

Sure.

Sam: Well, no, again, there's a
counterpart to that, uh, in, I

can't give you chapter and verse.

You know, the, the

Joe: woman at the well.

I never met her.

I know about the girl by the
whirlpool looking for the new fool.

Sam: Well, it's a bit like that.

All right.

So Jesus is down at the, Jesus
is down at the well and there's

a woman there and she's had seven
husbands or whatever it says.

And it, there's details that escape
me, but the overall thing is.

He's not looking at her the way
that other people have looked at

her and like, oh, yeah, yeah, you
know, you're a tramp or whatever, or

geez, you must be bad at marriage or,
you know, did you murder them all?

Or the many judgments people
might have in that situation.

Jesus is just like, no, I see you.

I dig it.

You've been to some places.

You've been through a lot.

You're ready for the next thing.

You didn't find it there in
marriage, but you will find it.

And like, she's like,
yeah, what do you know?

I'm the woman at the well.

Yes, man.

That's what I'm trying to

Joe: say.

We've got an episode

Sam: title.

Yeah.

She's thirsty.

She's going to the well to drink.

But Jesus is

Ali: my homie.

I like that.

You could have that issue.

Joe: No.

I'm the, Joe is the woman at the well.

Yes.

Sam: Episode title.

No.

You're the woman who had seven husbands.

And she, and you know, she
loved all of that, you know,

there's all these layers to it.

I've heard this story pulled apart
in many different ways, like the, the

symbolic, the symbolism, the theology
of it, the psychoanalytics of it.

there's a reason Zizek takes
the book of Romans, St.

Paul's stuff quite seriously, because
it's not just like an intellectualization,

like, you know, from what I understand
of his encounter with it, you know,

he's He just grew up in a Christian
country like so many of us did.

I mean, just in the Soviet
Union, but you know what I mean.

And then he became
interested in psychoanalysis.

And then, you know, I started
reading Hegel and Freud and Marx

and realizing, oh, there's so
much psychology in all this stuff.

You know, reading Lacan and
then eventually becoming the

towering figure he is today.

But at the heart of an awful lot
of what he's on about is like what

he calls atheist Christianity.

Like he's embraced it.

Like he's like, no, no, this is legit.

He can't do the God thing, but he's
like, no, no, this is, this teaching

makes sense to me psychologically and
intellectually, but it also resonates

with his experience His own suffering.

So, like, phenomenologically,
like, it works.

Well,

Joe: I would say, I already had a
God, and now I've come to Jesus.

Yeah.

But, I don't think I'm going to decide
that Jesus is the only way to God.

No, no.

Because I already had
God before I met Jesus.

Well, that's right.

You don't have to do that.

But, but, but...

In the very simple sense of being a
spiritual seeker, and I would say in my

experience in the last few years, a finder
of things, spiritually, is that I just

want the fear and pain to stop, you know,
and probably that's why I drank as well,

and it kind of works while you're drunk.

Oh, sure.

If nothing else doesn't, it comes
back twice as bad in the morning.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

. But, um, yeah.

Anyway, we've gone very deep on this.

Well,

Sam: absolutely.

I knew, I knew where I
knew it would go deep.

. Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, I

Joe: endorsed that one.

Yeah.

Anyway, I think we should wrap it up.

Sam: Mm.

Thank you Emmett Fox.

Um,

Joe: grievances

Sam: be gone.

Yeah.

They're bad for you.

So whether that guy's a raving
loony or a wise man well.

A true mystic would
say it's both mate, um,

Joe: yeah, but there's something in it.

Yeah.

Sam: Yeah.

So, oh, that's right.

I'm going to do one last thing.

The bad news, you know, your parents,
the good news, um, they messed up.

Probably didn't mess up
because they were evil.

Probably messed up because of
their nature and their circumstance

and the things they didn't know
and the experiences they'd had.

Which you're not aware of as a child,
and then years later you find out, Oh

gee, this dreadful thing happened to
my mum, and you know, Or you know, Dad

had pretty bad depression really, for
a lot of his twenties and thirties.

Okay, well you know what, once you let
go of that fantasy that, No, they weren't

bad after all, it was me, it was me,
And I'm going to stop defending them,

I'm going to stop defending myself.

Done with all this defending, you know.

Let's just, let's just concede.

Let's just concede everything.

Yes.

It's all true.

And you know what?

Oh man, it's such bad news.

They weren't perfect after all.

Oh, you didn't get looked after.

Oh, that's not bad news.

You knew that anyway.

You know, Winnicott, the catastrophe
you fear has already occurred.

The thing you're trying to prevent
and keep yourself safe from, you've

been living with it this whole time.

You don't need to keep
yourself safe from it.

You've been in it.

Like you can take it.

That's what I'm telling you, and then like
the good news, once you realise how flawed

they were for reasons that they didn't
have full control over, okay, same for me.

And now the door can swing both
ways and you go, I'm not better

than they are, but we all have to...

We all have to take responsibility.

We all have to do better if we can.

We all must do what we can.

Yeah.

You know?

And then once you get there, it's
like, oh man, it's a bit easier.

Joe: Yeah.

I'm not fucking my kids
up with drugs and alcohol.

Yeah.

I'm fucking my kids up by being so
distracted by my phone and I see it.

Yeah.

Every day I am with them
and I just watch it happen.

Maybe like my parents watched it
happen with booze and, and drugs.

I don't know.

I can't.

I feel like I can't stop it
and I just watch it unfold

and I feel like I'm balanced.

It's probably better than what I
lived through and they're certainly

not in a house full of drama.

They're really not, but I'm so
disconnected, so, so disconnected.

So it's like, I don't know, I, you
know, I've only got a couple of

years left to try and write that
a bit, but I'm not even trying it.

Well, don't,

Sam: well, no, well don't try.

You know, it's like, Ali, when you
were talking about Relationships and

like, um, the, you know, the evolution
and getting, uh, getting another crack

at it and going, all right, this is
how we're going to do it this time.

We're going to be quite conscious
and I'm thinking, yeah, yeah, yeah.

The ideals and the
principles are really good.

Have those there for sure.

But we're always going to fall short.

Yeah, always.

And, but then like, it's like, oh,
but it's so easy that the more we

catch ourselves in the fantasy.

Projecting onto the other good
things, bad things, you know, making

it their fault, making it their
responsibility or, or making it all

our responsibility, all those engaging
in all those illusions and fantasies.

We can just keep catching
ourselves doing that.

And I was like, it must be so weird.

Sitting down with like a relatively
new person and just going, okay,

let's just try and be in the present
here and like, see, let me try and

listen and understand them, but not.

Not, not go too far on the
understanding, you know, and

Ali: just like as they are
in that moment, as they

Sam: are in that moment, because it's not,
it's not the rest of everything, is it?

No,

Ali: it's not.

You can only take them yet
as they are in that moment.

And it's actually, it's,
it's a really lovely feeling.

It is man.

Sam: Just, yeah, it's good.

And if they get it wrong, that's
as they are in that moment.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Joe: There you go Joe.

See you guys.

Sam: See ya.