The Ten Thousand Things

Sam: Hello, and welcome
back to the 10,000 things.

My name is Sam.

Joe: I'm Joe low.

Ali: And I'm Ali Catramados.

Sam: Today, a quote.

Our Western culture.

And many of the relationship
experts in it have issued us

faulty maps and improper tools.

We've been told that the love we need
is a buried treasure, hidden in the

heart of a special intimate partner.

Once we find that partner, the love we
crave should flow elixir, like filling

our empty spaces and healing our pain.

Joe: Um, that's from You Are the One
You've Been Waiting For: Applying Internal

Family Systems to Intimate Relationships.

By Richard Swartz, PhD.

I'm told that's books, doing the
rounds of the psych cologists circles.

Sam: Oh, sounds very credible.

I

Joe: read a few pages on and
didn't really like the book, but a.

Oh, it gets into like, you've got
multiple selves and then you've

got a higher self and it's all fun.

Like maybe I'll go back to it, but.

As soon as I read that, I
just send it to you guys.

Cause I was like, well, here it
is again, this is Alonda buttons.

Like let's uproot 200 years of
romanticism from our brains.

And when I read that from
Alon a few years ago, I.

I sort of took it in, but.

Love that he wrote.

Uh, just that one point
that he's made repeatedly.

Yeah.

He.

Which is that romanticism?

Isn't a natural human state.

It's a set of ideas.

From a bunch of poets.

Yeah, an artist couple of hundred
years ago, as a response to modernity.

Right.

We because of Hollywood.

And all the other culture.

I think most of us assume
that romantic love.

Is a real and be natural

Sam: objective and natural.

And the ultimate human experience.

Joe: I took all of that for granted.

And then immediately eight years
of bruising I was going to say

singularity, but that's not the
right use of that word, but it is of.

Being single.

Yeah.

Have disabused me, I think of
this idea of romantic love and

suddenly feel a certain clarity.

But I might be about to
fall in love tomorrow.

I don't know.

Sam: Well, you were, you were
waxing lyrical earlier about

feeling like you're getting.

more and more comfortable and
living in reality more and more.

Joe: I am very enticed by re concrete
reality just right at the moment.

Yes.

Yeah.

And I'm not sure where romantic love.

Certainly flowing elixir like
and fixing all my problems.

Fits into that, but that's certainly
how I saw it at the age of 20.

What about you, Ali?

Ali: So, yeah, I very much had that.

You know, socialized to believe that
that sort of romantic love was the be

all and end all and to find a partner.

And that, that would sort
of, yeah, that was the goal.

Right.

And.

my view on that.

Has shifted.

And it's not that the extreme where
I don't think romance doesn't exist

because I think I have experienced it.

And what I think is romance is I
think very it's personal to me.

And I think everybody has their
own experience of what they

think is romantic or romance.

And I think those are very real, but,
but at the same time, I don't believe

that those will fix all my problems.

I like similarly to you, I've
been single on and off the

last few years and I very much.

had sort of a, yeah.

Uh, discussion early this week
with my psychologist about this.

And we're sort of talking about my
shifting view on what relationships are.

And I think.

It's.

my view of romance.

And a romantic relationship is that yeah,
you can have those romantic experiences,

but they are not the defining goal of
having a relationship and they are not

exclusive to being in a relationship.

So I can have those romantic experiences,
but it doesn't necessarily have to

be in sort of the typical monogamous.

this is not a thing to
polyamory or anything like that.

I'm not talking about that.

I'm just saying, as in, you
can have romance in your

life, it doesn't have to be.

with another person, you can romanticize
things within your own life for yourself.

In also in conjunction with other
people and that can make your life,

those are the fixes, but it's not that
you can't put all of that in pressure

or expectation that one person will
fulfill all of those needs for you.

Sam: Yeah, that's right.

It's very hard to

Ali: fulfill those yourself and
anybody coming into that is a bonus.

Yeah.

That's my point.

Sam: Yeah, you're right.

Look, it's unfair on both.

Parties to have these expectation.

And you can imagine a scenario where
two people have this same expectation.

That's not going to work.

No.

I was waiting for the
other to do the thing

Ali: yeah.

To fix, to fix everything.

Yeah, you can't like nobody can.

Sam: That's right.

And then, and then now imagine a
scenario where one person has this

belief and the other is more grounded in
reality and knows what it really takes.

That relationship stands a chance, but

Joe: let me, let me pose a couple
of questions to both of you.

First yeah.

Is romantic love real or isn't an
invention of the romantics 200 years ago.

Oh, okay.

They just describing something that's
always existed since the Dawn of time.

Um, or did they invent something
that never really existed?

Ali: I think it always existed.

I really do.

I think so.

Joe: It's a naturally
occurring phenomenon.

You don't buy the cultural.

Thesis like humans, just this happens to
humans probably happens to other animals.

It's

Ali: probably, yeah, like a biological
mechanism for like reproduction, which

people would call lust, but those feelings
are still very real feelings that you

can, you know, In, in that context, it's a

Joe: bit of a trick of nature, but that's.

The loss side of it.

So one aspect.

It doesn't mean.

That's what takes it from last.

Beyond an into love.

Yeah.

Take

Ali: care.

Joe: So, no, no, but experientially.

Ali: Yeah.

So.

Um, being cared for and feeling cared for.

I think, you know, You know, again,
that probably serves a biological

mechanism for Keeping the species
alive and that, you know, you've got,

uh, The P your, your mate, who, you
know, or the father of your children.

Yeah.

It breaks a leg.

Take love would be, you know, showing
care for that person, that person

feeling cared for and special.

That's a, still a romantic.

Thing that you could do for someone.

It's

Joe: the same substance as the love
we have for our children or our.

Parents had for us, it's the same stuff.

What's different though.

Isn't it?

Uh, to me, experientially.

It's very different.

I think if I have to, my children.

Sam: So I think what's
the definition of romance.

I think we had a stab at least a
couple of shows ago and I listened

back and I was like, she's on
flailing to actually define it.

Joe: Romantic love.

Yeah.

That's why

Sam: I'm talking about like walks on the
beach by the Moonlight and you've had.

Yeah, we've all actually
had those with friends.

Hmm.

And that's been special
and, but he chose right.

There is something that's set aside for.

Um, you know, if you had a resection.

It's someone of the opposite sex.

And if you're homosexual someone
of the same sex and it's this

feeling is how I define it.

It's this feeling of.

Us against the world.

It's just the two of us.

There's a destiny between us.

It's a team.

And this all sounds great.

The rest of the world.

Joe: Doesn't stop.

It doesn't matter.

Sam: Yes.

We're safe.

Yes.

Ali: Safety there's care.

There's.

Yeah, like there's a shared
goal or shared purpose.

Sam: Yes.

Yeah.

Ali: Yeah.

And yeah, there's a, some sort
of connection between I think,

and it is really special.

I think we've always,
probably had those feelings.

And that, yeah, maybe a couple of hundred
years ago, people were able to really

articulate them in a way that was.

Well received by the masses.

And so, yes, but.

It doesn't mean that.

The reason they were probably well
received was because they resonated

because people experienced them.

Joe: But guess what alarm.

I want to say though.

And maybe this quote is.

We take these feelings and then
we make these huge decisions,

like marrying someone yes.

And committing for the rest
of our lives with them.

And.

Uh, happily ever after.

I mean, I've only dated
pretty much hardcore.

Left-wing feminists.

Um, but there's still some Disney
princess shit going on in there, man.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's still conditioning
in those women.

At one, some kind of
Disney princess scenarios,

Ali: social, like.

If you look at sort of the socialization
and marriage and how, you know, with.

Basically the transfer of property
and then, and how that all sort of

evolved and that, that sort of mechanism
worked on it's for social cohesion.

So

Sam: you do by the cultural thesis.

But you also have a biological thesis.

Yes.

That's fine.

I think, yeah.

I'm

Ali: happy to sit with both.

I think that, yeah.

The reasons for marriage may very
well be more practical rather than

romantic, but that's not to say
that you can't have those romantic.

Sam: In agreement.

And romantic in the extreme.

So two men are exchanging property.

Ali: Yeah.

Sam: And, uh, making an Alliance.

Uh, business or monitored.

And that was marriage

Joe: before romantic.

Before modern romance marriage
was that it wasn't love.

Love, matches.

Sam: You remember when, like,

Ali: although within your, your
class you could potentially have had.

Love matches.

If there was no sort of reason
for that you had, you hadn't

Joe: go against the other
reasons to get married.

Sure.

Sam: It was not a necessary
or sufficient condition.

Marriage.

Yes.

And

Ali: it's, I don't think it
doesn't, it didn't happen.

Sam: And in many families.

Any girl who was talking along
those lines would have been.

Quite stiffly.

Re-educate.

That's where you get all the tragedies,

Joe: right?

Like, Jane Austin or whatever it is.

Yeah.

It

Ali: wasn't appropriate for you.

It was a part of your
social circle or whatever.

I've been

Joe: incredibly romantic in my time.

So the other question.

I have for you guys is assuming that
romantic love is a real phenomenon

and not just a sort of brain disease.

That's mean.

The name that we picked up.

Yeah.

And run with for 200 years.

At least in Western culture.

Sure.

I'm assuming that it's real,
it's a real phenomenon.

It's sort of naturally occurring.

It's lost.

And then it goes beyond lost
into this connected state where

we're safe from the whole world.

The whole world fades into the
background and it's just us in our

private universe has crowded house.

Special destiny.

Yeah.

Assuming all of that does.

Romantic love resolve anything?

No.

For the individual?

No, no.

In fact it closes.

Sam: Yeah,

Joe: what I've always chased in this
realm is some kind of resolution

that's always felt just out of reach.

Yes.

Sam: That's the illusion receding
from your grasp as you reach for it.

Joe: Like we talked in an earlier episode
about looking for a magical vagina.

Yes.

And I'll be your friend

Sam: said there's no.

Magical vagina.

Yes.

Yeah.

It's like that person is so right.

Yeah.

So.

Joe: I think the reason I get, so
hard-lined about this is because it's

caused me more group grief than this.

Whether it's phenomenon or an
idea, or both it's caused me

more grief than anything else.

Smell

Sam: it it's maladaptive.

It's not useful.

Me.

Yeah.

It could be,

Ali: but then similarly to the,
the argument you could make is

that it gives some people purpose.

Um, and, and there is an argument that
that is not necessarily healthy, that

you make the locus of your purpose.

Yes.

Channel to yourself.

However There are people
who are very much done that.

Yeah.

And.

Would say that they're
happy and content with that.

And is that experience not
valid because they've had.

Loving and fulfilling life and purpose.

With this person, because this
other person has given them purpose.

And if you look at some older
couples and stuff, Yeah.

Partner passes away.

They will often pass away.

You know, not long after, because their
daily purpose and that's, I mean, if you

think of like, um, uh, Victor Frankel and
like, yeah, one of your, you know, you

have to have a purpose and whether, yeah.

I mean, is it healthy to
have it in another person?

Practically, maybe not
because people can die.

People can change their mind.

People.

You know, imperfect and could let
you down or for a variety of reasons

that is a risk, but is it, is it a
calculated risk that a lot of people

are willing to take because it
actually is providing that fulfillment.

Joe: I don't think the whole idea of
romantic love is waning in the culture.

No, not at all.

Yeah.

It's going

Sam: strong.

It's like all these people that
are freaking out that, The trans

ideologies somehow carried the day.

And that heterosexuality is
like this endangered species.

It's like, good God.

There is so much support for,
Gender is constantly being ratified

everywhere we look heterosexuality is.

Joe: to log off, log off
and walk down the street.

Yeah, totally.

And a lot of things like a lot of
things people get confused about.

I think so confused what the most
extremely online thing is, has

got nothing to do with the reality
of absolute mass population.

Sam: But also just in terms of what's
in the online discourse, there's

still loads of heteronormative stuff.

There's still loads of romantic normative.

Like I think it's still being
held up as the gold standard.

And so I'm, I'm a fairly
hard line on this one.

When I say that I I've
experienced romance.

So in that sense, it's phenomenologically.

It's real, right?

Let's say that.

But I'm with the cultural
construction thing.

And I think there's some stuff in
the deep past in the genetics that.

Is real.

So there's that.

But I think the, the layer of
construction over the top of it

and all the movies and all that.

We can't like, and the number of books
it sells, like we can't underestimate.

The sheer size of the culture
industry around this idea and

how that culture industry is
responsible for a lot of people.

Failing to understand why their
relationships aren't what.

Joe: Someone sent me a book that's called
you are the one you are looking for.

Sam: It needs to be written.

It needs to be read.

Joe: Yeah, it's a best seller.

Yeah.

Like I don't, this is
where I get super confused.

Yeah, because people always
say have the relationship with

yourself, but it's like, hang on.

I've got to create.

Like three selves to do that.

Yeah.

And then I've got to get them
into a relationship with each

other and there's like, no.

Sam: Romance with myself.

Oh, you're overthinking it.

It's like.

It's like, oh, I want someone who will.

You know, let's go down the checklist.

You know, someone who gets
me, I want someone who.

Knows what to say when I'm.

Yeah.

I want someone who accepts me.

It's like, you're looking at it.

Yeah.

Well, it's, I'm going to face my

Joe: darkest fears.

Yeah.

Well, yeah.

The other problem is I probably sound
like a grumpy old man on this podcast.

A lot of the time I'm
incredibly sentimental.

I remember I saw a couple
in their seventies.

I must've been.

Boogie boarding on the same
wave down the surf coast.

Nearly cried.

Yeah.

And then I get into happily ever after
situations and they turn into like

nightmare situations and then they're
over within a couple of months, but yeah.

Sometimes for me for a period
of weeks, I suddenly think I'm

going to be with this woman.

On the boogie boards.

Yeah.

You know, at 75 on the same wave.

We did it.

We made it.

The feeling 30 years together from I'm 44.

Now the fantasy.

Yeah, I know.

And the way of it.

It's like it implodes, like what to do.

One of those big buildings get Detroit.

You.

You know, like it's like, it's like a
controlled demolition as I watch it is.

And it's fucking harder.

44.

It's like five.

Your heart's got so much scar tissue.

It's

Sam: just.

But that's 70 year old couple.

They might've started five years ago.

You don't know.

Joe: 50 years.

Ali: Or however many years they have been
together may not have been wonderful, but

they're just, as my dad would call it,
they're in a purple patch at the moment.

Yeah.

Like, I mean, if I, I look
at my grandma, like, so my

grandparents, like my grandmother.

Passed away, like away.

Not long after my grandfather passed away.

she really gave up, like after
he died, because her purpose.

Every day.

You know, to take care of
him, to do things for her.

And she did love him in.

In a way, her hot, hot,
like, yeah, her whole life.

She was very much in love with him.

Or the idea of him.

But it was a very volatile, toxic,
and abusive relationship and stuff

that she tolerated, which is not, you
know, not healthy, not good, not, but.

They, yeah.

So like, did they have a great.

50 plus years together?

No, like he wouldn't, you couldn't
say that, but did they have some nice

moments together over those 50 years?

Absolutely.

And you probably, yeah, you
might've got a glimpse of.

Joe: A good

Ali: map.

That's ones.

That I could have

Joe: stayed at a state of obsession with.

And like bad shit happening, like
you describing with the grandparents.

Yeah, but I think in 2024, we go.

Well, this is going down about path.

And it's, it's hard to extract
yourself from a toxic relationship.

Ask anyone who's been in one
or an abusive relationship.

It's hard when you start to be
obsessed with your abuse off.

Ali: Yeah, well, I mean, Walk

Joe: away, you know,

Ali: and I think a lot, particularly
with women and looking at like,

yeah, our grandparents relationships,
or even our parents' relationships

and what women accepted or.

You know, in a longterm relationship
are definitely things that are not.

There are the barriers of like being able
to have property credit card, have a job.

You know, childcare, all those
things are sort of, those are

gradually being taken away.

So you don't have, there's
not the financial dependence

on being in a partnership.

So you, it has afforded more choice.

And so, yeah, we're like, oh, just
because my grandparents had been.

I gather for all those years, maybe
that relationship doesn't look as.

They're happy when they're old and
they're, you know, but like that's

some of the things that, yeah.

You know, my grandpa mothers have told me
that happened to them in their marriages.

I'm like, fuck.

It's really, I would not
want that for myself or.

That's a fucking crime.

Yeah.

Joe: If he wasn't in jail now
he'd be canceled or whatever.

Ali: Really terrible things.

And I think, yeah, a lot of women are
sort of not wanting that experience

for themselves and yeah, the.

Even though they're the, the
promise of romantic love.

The reality of that is
not always the case.

Because I

Joe: think the flip side
of the romantic love is the

jealousy possessiveness session.

Well, which leads to
physical staff that leads to.

Coercive control stuff.

Sam: You've let me down.

And I'm the victim here.

Is that is, those are the conditions
that make that intimate violence.

Much more likely and possible because
you have to, at some point you have

to de-humanize the other, at least
in the moment to be able to do that.

And you might regret it
immediately afterwards.

Um, that's what we hear from men.

That have done this.

But it started with a feeling
of grievance and victim hood.

And where does that come from?

And it might come from it romantic.

Disillusionment at times and jealousy and
possessiveness and all that normal stuff.

And, and also a feeling of a, you
know, a contract that hasn't been met.

And an inability to.

Figure out how to have the conversation
about needs and wants and doing it the

right way and feeling that you have no
power over this other person, as long as

you use the most basic and dishonorable
method to gain power over this other.

And anyone that believed in
romantic love as an ideal.

Surely.

Surely.

If this illusion has anything going
for it, it's the idea that this

man and this woman are equals.

And I'm sitting there talking
about the heterosexual one here.

So then.

Clearly it's bad enough.

If there's delusion that this person will
magically supply me with what's missing

in me and I no longer have any, I no
longer have any duty to work on myself

or figure out what happiness is and
create meaning and purpose for myself.

This person has to do it all now.

And so that's going to
stop you from growing.

But the really dark side of all these is.

You have, let me down,
you have ruined my life.

You are responsible for all of
my unhappiness and that is just.

The flip side, why.

Why isn't this so obvious to people?

The flip side of you are responsible
for my happiness is you are

responsible for my unhappy.

It's so obvious.

Ali: Resentment sets in that.

It just festers and rots.

And does that's.

Yeah, it's the undoing and you,
yeah, you lose that respect for that.

At one point.

Yeah.

You'd lose respect for your partner
and that's how yet things are you?

Right.

Sam: You put the agency
or out of yourself?

On to that person

Ali: dehumanize the other person.

And that's how these horrible things can.

I definitely

Joe: have had a couple of women
over my lifetime and I thought

if we could just get it right.

Yeah, it would resolve everything.

And that that might be true.

And I would be.

So happy and at peace
and, and all of that.

And I experienced it for a decent length
of time, but I would also reflect that.

The worst.

Yes.

The worst.

Hmm, side of myself.

And my worst behavior was in relationship.

And so it's interesting for me.

Is, yeah.

Of not being able to make relationship
where it's like, well, maybe

this aversion is because I know.

As long as I stay out of a relationship,
I will not access my darkest parts.

Um, they will stay safely
quarantined from the world.

Pretty much sell me
like jealousy, honestly.

Like my last experience of
that a couple of years ago.

That's not safe.

I can't.

As soon as I need to.

Yeah.

I don't know.

There needs to be a
level of trust that yes.

Is so complete.

Um, otherwise it's dangerous scares me.

I scare myself.

So that's

Ali: so different to my experience
in that being in a partnership.

Creates this accountability.

Yeah.

Behave so much better.

My behavior, my stability,
all of that is so much more.

Yeah.

Functional.

And that's why they do call.

Yeah.

Like a lot of, you know, lot of
people in long-term relationships.

And in the context of having a mental
illness, it's a protective factor.

Just a huge protective factor.

And so the instability

Joe: career and wealth.

And all that stuff.

Yeah.

Ali: The stuff.

Yeah.

The times when I've not had that yet.

That partner in my life have
been the Mo that's when I've

been the most destructive and.

And done because yeah, there's
no accountability in here.

And so I've absolutely.

That's when I've made the
worst decisions for myself.

Yeah.

You know?

Absolutely without a doubt,

Sam: some of my least proud moments
are in relationships, but as an

overall baseline, poor average,
it's outside of relationships.

But it's, it's a dangerous

Joe: game.

In addiction circles, we talk about.

Taking a hostage.

It's like, yeah.

Um, isolated in addiction
and how to control here.

Yeah.

So I'm just going to grab this
person, bring them into my life.

Be incredibly charming.

And then I'm going to go back
to destroying myself, but

now I've got some company.

Yes.

And this person will get attached to
me and they won't be able to get away.

Um,

Sam: none of that's a conscious
thought alcoholics look back

Joe: and say, all I ever
did was take hostages.

And then, and that's where I'm at.

I use sober maybe now.

Wow.

What if.

I had a relationship that
wasn't taking a hostage.

Sam: Yeah.

I think you can earn it.

And I think non alcoholics
can do this as well.

Can I look at all these pop songs
slave to love Unchained my heart,

like this hostage thing is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's like, that's the whole, I think
this is what this author is going for.

Not only is there's like an illusion.

That's hollow and it's
taking you away from that.

The responsibility to like grow
yourself and be honest with yourself.

But there's also, it's enabling.

this behavior of.

Demanding from others and like, not.

It's a way it's a great Dodge to get away
from this obligation to the cell fence, to

the other end, to treat these two people
as equals and like it's based in reality.

And these two people are.

Like Allie was saying.

I can see now while you've got room for
this idea of romantic love, because.

I think you've got a very
practical and rational and

actually healthy concept of it.

So that's what probably makes
it seem operable to you.

Maybe you haven't fully given
into the complete delusion of it.

Yeah.

You're actually much more attuned
to this idea of two people

holding each other accountable.

And growing

Ali: together.

Yeah.

It's actually, it can, if you've got
two people who are of the mindset

that they need to work on themselves.

And our own control of their
own behaviors and the, and the

consequences of those behaviors.

And, but actually can have an open and
meaningful and honest, Relationship

with each other where they can talk
through and work through those things.

It's absolutely possible that
that would actually be of

benefit to those for both people.

And.

Yeah.

And it'd be a really positive thing
yet having that accountability.

Joe: Yeah.

So do you believe it's possible that.

The rest of your life,
you'll have more romantic.

Relationships, fall in love
again and have that equal

connection and all the good shit.

Yes.

The elixir as the quote would fall.

Ali: And I, but, and this is where
I was sort of saying, talking to the

psychologist, my thought that I, but.

I lost earlier in that I don't
necessarily believe that that

yeah, like necessarily has to exist
in a partnership in two people.

For like for forever, for the rest of your
lives, it could be that you just have this

beautiful, lovely, romantic experience.

For three months or you might
have it for three years or you

might have it for 30 years.

And it doesn't.

And just because for whatever reason,
because life people grow, change, move on.

It doesn't take away that,
that wasn't actually.

A loving, romantic,
beautiful thing that you had.

And that, that expectation that,
yeah, it doesn't have to be forever,

but right now, It's fantastic.

There

Joe: is a line about, you can have
a relationship for 30 years or you

can have it for a season and the
season could be just as profound.

Exactly.

I've had that experience about
three or four times, but.

My problem is once the season's
over the next 15 seasons is spent

thinking about that one season.

I'm able to move on, right.

Because.

It's very sticky it lodges in your brain.

If you have a deep connection with
someone and then they're suddenly gone

for me, that's a big attachment wound.

I can't breathe.

Where is that

Ali: person?

Something quite recently about like
how men particularly do that, where

they, they will often think about.

First love or, you know, are
the old relationships like.

The one that got away.

And the way that women
don't necessarily do.

You might think about your execute
and it's not to say they're not even

in a happy and loving relationship.

I still look back on it.

Why men particularly do that versus women?

Don't.

Joe: Might be a possessiveness thing.

I think.

Ali: But yeah, like women
don't necessarily looking

back in that sort of way.

It's sort of more what's ahead or.

Like right now.

Joe: Or they think about that guy thing.

Hey, he was at daycare.

Ali: I was not thinking, then I
lowered my standards and that's what

I got for that, like, absolutely.

I'd say that's most women go.

What was I thinking?

Sam: So this is off your

Ali: lighting.

So this

Sam: delusion in might impact it might
impact the agendas on equally, perhaps.

and I think maybe women
are usually seen as the.

I guess the people most susceptible.

The ones most likely to, Consumer
romantic literature and that, yeah.

The amount of romantic,

Ali: like all like smart as it's, you
know, like the smart that I would eat.

Is just consumed in from women quite young
through to like, I'd say my Nana, like.

So in such huge amounts, like yeah.

Yeah.

There's a huge market for that, like

Sam: that voracious

Ali: voracious rates.

Yeah.

Sam: And yet we can't take from
that, any kind of simple assumption.

Well, therefore women
are more diluted in this.

They're more committed to this allusion.

I don't think that's true necessarily.

Yeah.

And maybe men aren't spending as much
time investigating it and like turning

it over and like, Oh, who's to say I

Joe: don't have it.

There's the princess fantasy as well.

Certainly.

Like someone who does at times, It cuts

Sam: both ways.

Yeah.

Joe: Like I was exposed to
all the same cultural stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I wanted to ask you Don.

It might be a bit personal, but.

So I assume you fell madly
in love and then got married.

Yes.

Cut to what?

15 years later.

Yeah.

What does that look like?

I'd never gone past nine, 10.

Nine years yet.

And the love, I don't think
made it past about seven.

Sam: Hmm.

2009 was the last time you were in low.

No, it was.

Actually, you know what, I'm
actually banging up for this.

You've asked me on the right day.

Um, yeah.

I was, I was going to refer
to an earlier relationship.

Like maybe, you know, maybe that's a.

At more of a distance and I can
be more honest, but no, no, no.

Like.

I can very much answer this.

Yes.

Felt.

On the first, you know, we didn't
have a first meet the first.

Love at first sight.

Very close.

Ali: Yeah, it's something.

Yeah, all my longterm path or.

I have dated for a significant amount.

I was absolutely something at first sight.

Absolutely.

Struck.

Yeah.

Sam: And it's the.

It's that's as much love
as you'll feel that soon.

Like put it that way.

It's like you, don't
the words I'm in love.

Didn't necessarily come into your mind.

But you're like, I only
want to talk to this person.

For the rest of the evening and beyond.

Yeah.

Yeah.

and also there was never, there
was no point in that immediate.

Courtship.

where there was a sour note, like it was.

And there was like a gap
of a couple of weeks.

And just like just a, sort of a romantic
evening in a small town by the beach.

And then.

Sort of a couple of weeks went
by because of work trips and.

I was busy.

And then I do make it down to Melbourne.

Have another date.

And, you know, it goes well and.

But the vibe is different because
we're in the big city now and it felt.

Oh, okay.

It's a bit more real now
because we're not by the beach.

Can they still work down here?

And yeah, I felt.

Very.

Impressed and struck and yeah, absolutely.

And I was like, ah, I really want
to put my best foot forward here.

Absolutely.

And, you know, I was
getting advice from friends.

And like, I was not my usual.

You know,

Joe: did they give you
the Georgia standard boss?

Uh, whatever you thinking,
just do the opposite.

Sam: Actually, yes, a lot of the
advice was don't be your usual self.

Yeah, actually, that's true.

Yeah, actually, I did.

I get a lot of friends who were
reality, checking me though, like,

okay, this is a big lift for you.

So, um, Hm.

Okay, let's see, let's
get you a facial scrub.

Um, and.

Oh, you know, How are
you going for cash, dude?

Like, you know, This is a big city chick.

She's she's a heavy hitter man.

Like what have you got?

Ali: Yeah.

They're trying to help.

Yeah.

Sam: They were.

They were very keen.

It was having, I was having one
of the most amazing evenings.

It was black Saturday.

And which is a Bama for lots of
things, but, you know, in Lauren

it was stinking hot, huge days.

He's day's trade by the beach.

The whole town had worked hard, you know?

And all the hospitality
kids went to the pub.

I never go.

To the pub at that point,
I'm like, no, that sucks.

Uh, but I said to a bunch of
Sams that I knew there was a gang

that was about five, six Sams.

And I was like, All right.

Sam's we're going to the pub.

And they were like, what?

That's unusual.

And I'm like, something's in the air.

We've got to do it.

And so all of this is romantic delusion.

When you look at it
like it's classic case.

And we rocked up.

We were having the dance
of our lives on the floor.

We weren't paying any
attention to the ladies.

We weren't tuning.

We were just.

Having a good boys night,
not in a laddish yucky way.

Just more like a girl's night.

Really.

Ali: Yeah, exactly.

Sam: Very much a girls' night.

And then I did the classic
and just ditched the girls.

When the guy came along.

Ali: Yeah.

Sam: All right.

Well done.

Yeah, sorry guys.

Yeah.

I spelt.

I rushed off the dance floor
because they started playing.

Blister in the sun and the cover band.

I won't allow the cover band to play that
while I dance it's against the rules.

And so I ran off.

Was it little LEAs,
little lawn traditions.

And I ran off the dance floor.

To get another VA spelt my drink.

I thought I'd spelt hers.

And I said, I'm so sorry.

Can I get you another drink?

And she said.

Uh, you could, but you spelt yours.

Yes.

Wow.

Oh, you're so right.

Yes, I did.

How silly off me anyway,
it comes to the bar.

And then we just talked
the rest of the evening.

I forgot.

I forgot about drinking.

Joe: Yeah,

Sam: amazing.

That was a good thing.

I was like, okay.

Joe: He never had another drink.

Sam: Not so unfortunately, Th this rosy
picture was soon replaced with huge

feelings of inadequacy on my part, and
that I was not going to be able to.

Actually live up to this and I was
not going to be a good partner.

Joe: I've heard someone to
point out reality to you ever

since that moment, though.

Yes.

Like.

No, that did not happen.

Sam, something else happened.

Ah, That's going on for like
15 years since that moment.

Sam: Well that's right.

But, so what did happen was about.

Uh, I dunno.

Free four months later, moved in and.

Later moved in.

Yeah, that's right.

Joe: Things were different

Ali: They really

Joe: were together.

The shack, stop

Ali: going home.

That's what happened with me?

Like.

Yeah, my son's father.

After a few weeks.

So you're just, I'm like, oh, okay.

This isn't.

Oh, yeah, that's right.

Sam: Yeah.

I've seen that.

I used to happen a lot more.

Yeah.

Joe: So many balls up

Sam: there was a different time.

And I think there, the romantic
delusion was going on there as well.

That like, Um, But, you know, and
I think partly because instead of.

Taking the more of the advice you'd get
now of know, be yourself Watson, all.

And make sure that the yellow
flags are all on display and

you've got to work through it.

And I got yellow flags, but again,

Joe: hang on.

What's a yellow flag.

Sam: It doesn't mean, it means.

Ali: It's not a deal breaker,
but it's it's it could be.

Yeah.

So it's something, yeah.

You proceed with caution as in like, okay.

I'm aware that this
person has this attribute.

Am I?

I might be okay with
it if they work on it.

Yes.

Versus like, oh, this is
something they're completely out

of is out of control and yes.

It's never going to work for me.

That would be a register.

Yeah,

Sam: exactly.

So, and green flags are
like, oh, shared values.

L L level of our level of emotional
investment is about the same.

Heard of grand

Joe: plugs.

I've never, never seen one, but.

Sam: Yeah.

And so I can really, I'm going
to point listeners once again to

Tracy, Morgan's a securely attached.

Um, podcast where she, she did
a great episode recently on

these three sets of flags and,

Joe: I'd like to dress
as a giant red flag.

Just on for first dates.

Yes.

Sam: And it's a good gag.

Yeah.

Joe: Yeah, so they know exactly.

Before I even sit down at the table.

Is this a red flag?

Sam: This is definitely a tricky customer.

Yeah, I think it's really good.

To, to be upfront about that.

Dresses a giant red flag right

Joe: now in case I run into someone.

Yes.

Yeah.

My way home.

Absolutely.

And anyways,

Sam: And I think the two of us were very
much trying to put our best foot forward.

And that is.

Yeah.

Ali: They even in a long term, and this
is what I was saying before about the

accountability, or like having somebody
who want, who you are your best self

around, because you want to be your best.

And the things that you are capable of,
that perhaps you don't necessarily do.

Just for yourself, but yeah, you will do.

For somebody you care about?

Yes.

I mean, yeah, these, the argument, you
should be able to do it for yourself.

I'm not saying.

And for friends and for family.

But having somebody there
that actually brings out those

nice qualities of yourself.

It's actually a really positive thing.

Yeah,

Joe: I got into that zone and
stayed in it for a few years,

like long enough to have children.

And I stayed in the
best version of myself.

I remember like meeting the
mother-in-law the, for the first time.

And it was.

What was hard.

It was just hard.

But I was an angel.

You.

And I went for a couple of days.

Yeah.

And, you know, and the partner
was so grateful that I'd made

that effort with that person.

And of course, thinking of course,
I'm going to make that effort like.

I'm in love with you, like whatever it
takes to become part of your family.

Yes, I haven't access
to that part of myself.

Over a decade.

So I

Sam: think there's nothing wrong
with making that effort provided at

the same time were able to be honest
with ourselves and the other early

on and say, just so you know, it
looks, things seem to be going well.

And I'm really,

Joe: yeah,

Sam: I'm all in, but can I just say.

I do have a bit of a closet and you
know, you probably have a right to know.

Now at this stage of my life,
I was very bad at explaining.

Well, this to myself, much less.

Anybody else?

And I just was very much
just fingers crossed.

Like let's, let's go with the
fantasy and let's believe it till we

achieve it, you know, rather than.

Ah, let's do the homework.

Let's do the due diligence.

That's where I'm at now.

Ali: I was going to say similarly,
like going in with that sort of

self-awareness has been something
since I had my little mentee be that.

Moving forward with dating
in that, like I thought.

Because I did bring my best self
out in those previous relationships.

It's like, oh, well, I can keep.

Like, I don't even need to
acknowledge those sort of those

things at all, because I've gone now.

Yeah, because I'm not behaving in that.

You know, I don't do that when I'm in
a relationship because I don't, but.

Yeah.

But I think actually since then, and
being far more honest, About yeah.

Where, you know, whether it's
your mental health stuff, whatever

it is, because, you know, having
that vulnerability and going into

Sam: the main.

Ali: Yeah.

This is actually the whole package.

It's not necessarily what
you will say because.

But it is a part of me and it's yeah.

It is liberating.

Like, you know, I was joking to
somebody I'd met recently that, you

know, how, how do you sort of explain.

Like 50 years ago, I would have definitely
been a candidate for a lumpectomy.

Yeah,

that was in the

Sam: Kennedy family though.

Ali: Yeah, that that's, that
is actually the reality.

I have quite a serious mental health.

Elnett illness and

Sam: they've been zapping me.

Ali: Exactly and you know, but you
know, I'm, I get, I have good treatment.

I have good supports, blah, blah, blah.

This is what I do to manage it.

The

Sam: DCT is actually a legitimate.

It really is.

And it's super

Ali: effective for some people.

Yeah.

yeah, like the, you know, basically
that, yeah, I don't ex I don't

have any expectations around
this other person managing it.

And this is, this is just what I do, but
just so also that you're aware of it so

that you can make an informed decision
of whether you want to be involved with

somebody who has that, because they
may very well have had an experience.

Yeah.

You know, it wasn't positive or.

They did have to take on that mental
load of being with somebody who

has, you know, a mental illness and

Joe: yeah.

Ali: If they want to opt out
of it, they have every right

to be able to opt out of that.

Did we

Joe: keep that quiet before?

You had your

Ali: part of it was not even
really knowing like what it was

like, you know, and then yeah.

But, but also, yeah, I'll just, I really
minimize like, oh, well I never wanted

to make that anybody else's problem.

And I still don't.

I don't, I fundamentally believe
in that personal responsibility

around managing your own.

You wouldn't know.

You wouldn't

Sam: have done much therapy before.

Ali: Absolutely not.

I would've just went.

Yeah.

Joe: Did you know, you
were bipolar though.

Ali: well, so I, I, it.

It first got floated around the age of 19.

I was actually talking
to my mum about this.

Like we'll try and work it out.

And then it was again, I mentioned when
I was pregnant, but then like, yeah.

But it was, it was a number of
years after that, that it was

actually a formal diagnosis.

Right.

Joe: About the same time.

Ali: Yeah.

That's when it started.

Yeah.

Because that's when you develop it, right?

Yeah.

Joe: I mean, I mean, I had
spent eight years upfronting

being bipolar and an alcoholic.

By the end, certainly by
the end of the first date.

But often in the chat before we even meet.

Your red flag,

Sam: yellow flagging right up front.

Joe: It's not that cool because it's just
thrown out there as this kind of hurdle.

It's.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's a test.

I've.

Got bipolar, Adam recovering alcoholic.

Is that a problem for you as in.

Uh, prejudiced.

Sam: actually, if anything.

I think so highly of you.

I think you're just going
to see right past this.

I think you're somewhere.

Joe: No.

What I play on very
effectively at times is that.

Women, some women have this
like wounded animal thing.

Yes.

But they'll just go and
pick up the wounded animal.

I think I might've done.

Often it's like psychologists types.

And it's always your workers and stuff.

Like they try, I'm sure they're
trying not to, but they're like

Sam: people who are empathic and.

And have, have some, you
know, I think ultimately

Ali: you probably need to be with
somebody who is, who can see.

Those diagnoses.

Actually not crazy, I guess.

Yeah.

Yes, you need to be with someone who

Sam: believes that people can improve.

Cause you have to believe that.

Joe: Yeah.

It's a deal breaker.

Yeah.

Like when people say that.

On the apps.

I say I'm not political.

It was like, come off.

You know, it's like, have you,
anyway, I don't want to go to that.

It's like, I just cannot because I'm not

Sam: because I'm not political
is a self ignorant statement.

By the way.

Ali: painful.

Sam: Childish statement.

Yeah.

Joe: But I think at this point, maybe
I can reframe it a bit of like, I've

got some mental health challenges,
but they're well managed and I

haven't had a drink in eight years.

Well, that's.

Instead of saying I'm fucked up.

Yeah, I'm fucked up, gets you
so far, but I think it gets

you the wrong kind of person,

Ali: perhaps.

Like I found it effective to
be sort of honest, but in a,

in a humor, like, I mean, yeah.

Yes.

The you soften it with a bit of humor.

Like that's probably because rather than
being so blunt about it, but also yeah.

Make sure that the key important
parts, you know, the key information

that you're making this decision is.

This is what it is.

This is how I'm treating it.

This is how I manage it.

Hm in amongst like giving it in a.

Just step away rather than, you know, so.

Yeah, I think

Joe: that's how I've, I've done
that on first dates and the person.

It seemed to go really well
and then they walk away and

just unmatch you immediately.

And it's fine.

Yeah.

But, um, yeah, I was going to say Sam.

From what Ali tells me, apparently women.

Can't think straight if a man is tall.

And I'm thinking back to you
at early days with your wife.

Yeah.

And I'm thinking, are you really into her?

All?

And charismatic with the gift of the gab.

Yes.

You might've snowed under for a long time.

Yeah, it was just like,
I think that's true.

Oh, God, this guy is so
intimate and he's great.

And he's so smart.

And apparently.

I should know, but Togo myself.

I thought it was my brains.

Ali: That shallow.

Actually, I do love the show.

And I think this is not a thing.

We love that, but yeah.

Yeah, no, it, it is, uh, It is a
weakness, I would say for a lot of women.

Sam: I know, I welcome the mission.

Kind

Joe: of patriarchal.

Yeah.

Like some kind of.

Daddy stuff going on there.

That's less fun.

Ali: Well, we don't want to

I think

Sam: probably.

Ali: I think there is some,
there is probably some aspect

of like feeling protected.

Sexual

Sam: dimorphism.

Yes.

Ali: Yeah, like being, you know, someone
that can wrap their arms around you.

There is 80 is a pretty good.

Sam: The problem is where's my seven
and a half foot girlfriend, but yeah.

Ali: I have, I have.

Dated short of men.

And that is absolutely
something that they want.

They want to be the little spoon.

Some people just want to
be the little spoon, right.

I think.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I've had yeah.

It's been like, I want to climb that.

Brushing your arms around.

The word for

Joe: me saying a few
years I've stopped it.

I used to say women say to women,
Ah, yeah, we'll go out to that place.

I'll come and scoop you up at.

Uh, seven 30.

That'd be like, oh yeah, you're.

Sam: That's great.

It is

Joe: my theory.

You snowed cath on.

For a number of years.

She woke up and she's like,
this guy's a fucking nightmare.

Yeah.

Sam: Yes.

No truly.

Joe: Does it even walk in straight lines?

Yes.

Doesn't complete any time.

Yeah.

It's like,

Sam: can I pick up social cues?

What's going on?

Yeah.

No totally.

It's great.

So that's the problem.

That's the thing about
falling in love is you.

Once

Joe: this somewhat wears off.

Ali: Then the reality.

I can say the.

Yeah.

Like you met him.

I think everybody
minimizes those red flags.

Even the initial stages and everybody.

Yeah.

Hypes.

The other things that you
think are really important that

actually are not that important.

Like the height or whatever.

Yeah.

So

Joe: what color jumper they're wearing?

On the first day.

Ali: There are things that, yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

The reality, but

Sam: yeah, if you don't want my total
dysfunction, you don't deserve my height.

Yeah.

The ability to talk.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's not really not fair.

Is it?

And I just want to like, be brutally
honest because I'm feeling like it's

feeling it's feeling right, but just.

Yeah, absolutely.

Joe, the complete disillusionment and.

Aye.

One of the big, one of the big
struggles I had in every relationship.

So the avoidant attachment, right.

So I would have get, I would
get the anxious triggered.

Bye.

Oh yucky.

They've got feelings and
they're depending on me now.

And I matter, and what
I do actually matters.

Yeah.

I was a free man.

The avoidant and then the
anxious part of like, I actually.

not very good at taking care of
other people and, but I also really

want to be taken care of myself.

And, ah, this is, this is, this is tough.

And it, but also one thing
that would absolutely.

Turn me cold.

Was seeing a partner.

Perceive my faults and seeing, seeing
the fault noticed, even if it was

accepted, I was just like, Unacceptable.

I must be a God in your eyes.

You.

It's like a

Ali: spectrum sort of like
rejection, sensitivity.

Yes, absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, it would be more acute.

Yes.

Yes.

If you experienced

Sam: RSD.

Yes.

It's a

Ali: symptom

Sam: and then rather than panicking
and like, no, no, I'm still awesome.

It was more like, How dare you?

Not think I'm awesome because,
because clearly like no ability

to kind of see the gray area.

Like either I'm amazing or I'm nothing.

And then like years of therapy.

I just like Adam saying, you know, You're
not the exalted being or the lowly worm.

Can you just, it's the middle.

Down the middle.

Yeah, the

Joe: middle way.

Yes,

Sam: leaving the normal world in the
ordinary world with ordinary people.

Cause you're one of them
and that's the good news.

Yeah.

Joe: I'm about to get
there in therapy myself.

Yeah.

I reckon you got some kids about
to come back from the pool.

So I think we should wrap it up.

Straight.

Somewhat from the quote, we
haven't referred back to it much.

I was about to do that.

I mean the elixir.

I mean, Allie's feeling like she can.

What I'm taking from Allie.

She will extract the Lixa from a man.

But also give her own elixir
and spread it all over him.

Yes.

Sam: I think it's true, Ellie.

Ellie

Ellie actually has a lot of
wisdom and insight and would.

Be able to give and just,

Joe: you're talking about a more equal
thing than what the quote's talking about.

Absolutely.

Ali: Yeah.

I think that's probably, yeah.

But that that's, that's not was, that
was not my initial obviously view.

And I think it is something I've grown
into and through my own experience

and therapy and all of that, that I.

Yeah, it is a changing and evolving view
and that's where I'm at at the moment.

Yeah.

It feels very balanced.

Oh, I see

Joe: this though.

And the two less than two
years, I've known you.

If I ever talked to you about
someone and you thought, yeah, this

is a really well balanced, even
thing that looks like it's off to a

solid start and couldn't work out.

It was always just seemed like.

Chaotic lurching.

Sam: Outside anything
that involved, Joe was.

sorry.

Ali: Because you're missed.

She loved drama.

Sam: I believe in your jar.

I think you can do it.

January question.

Ali: Genuinely, I think there's
been, From the people that I think

have, could have potentially been
like that as a partner for you.

Sam: Yes.

Ali: You have not been as
interested in yeah, because it's.

I think you've seen it as boring.

And safe.

And you, you feel more alive when
you've got a little bit of that.

Psychological abuse.

I wanted one advantage.

Yeah, and I was going to out on the
flip side of that, then the ones that.

Yeah.

That have, have that also are
like that have not necessarily

been interested in you.

So

Sam: that's right.

Yeah, one advantage.

Well, I think one real asset you've got,
there's actually heaps, but I think one of

them is your quiet, comfortable with not.

You don't need them to see
you as awesome and perfect.

You're actually quite fine with them
having a fairly realistic idea of you.

Um,

Joe: lowly worm thing
you were talking about.

Yeah.

It's like the occasional
burst of ego, but a lot of.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, of course.

Yeah,

Sam: absolutely.

And, and that's why I couldn't
tolerate it because I actually had

no real self level self-respect and
so I needed the other person to.

Have that adoration in order for
me to have any kind of love for

myself now, I'm like, no, I'm fine.

I'm okay.

I don't need you to do that,

Joe: but as for like a
calm and steady love.

I think I have.

I think I had that in 2020, where
the, during the height of COVID.

From someone?

Yes.

And I,

Sam: that sounded good for you.

Joe: Checked out on that.

Sam: Hmm.

Yeah.

So that's where you
have to dig into these.

Joe: And I tried and I was already
with my current therapist and I

workshopped it and I tried, man.

Did you talk about them?

Attachment with.

We tried.

And then I just pulled the pin.

You know, They reminded me of
that kind of calm and steady.

That it exists.

Ali: I think, and I don't,
it's not to say that.

I don't think you're capable
of it or you can't have it.

I think there's probably

Joe: something if you don't want it.

Ali: I think you want it.

And I think you just, it's just
been more, a matter of timing or the

person like yet, like I said, the
person you've potentially could have

had that with has either not been.

Interested in you for various reasons
or vice versa, but I don't think

it's necessarily not for wanting.

But I do think.

You do get drawn into
the more messy sort of.

Dynamics, because there is something
very appealing about that for you.

Sam: Yeah.

I think, I think you've got some

Ali: Which is not, which is very
human thing because it it's, it's

an interesting, it's exciting.

It's.

Yeah, it makes you feel alive.

Or you've said that to me before
you want, that makes you feel alive.

Sam: Yeah.

Feeling

Ali: something really deeply.

Sam: That's right.

I think the excitement.

Yeah, it can be a bit of a
thrill seeker and that's fine.

But I think the thing I keep coming
back to I've thought about this actually

probably three times in the last week,
you, in particular, that story you told.

I think that for me, the
big clue is this story.

You're having the weekend away and
you're having dinner or something.

And then you kind of like step
outside for a second and then just get

assaulted by a wave of, is this it?

Oh, I remember that.

Yeah, that story you've told maybe once
or twice, but I keep thinking of it.

When I think about you.

And your relationships, but I
think there's a clue in there

for me as well, because I felt
that same feeling so many times.

And it was when I was humanized
by the partner and just seen

as just a person horrifying.

Or like, oh, here comes reality.

That the wave of endorphins
is starting to recede.

I can't cope.

I can't cope.

Just real.

Like not having that security,
that comfort with reality in

the self was just lacking.

And so the second.

Reverted to the main.

Of going where's the next
dopamine hit coming from?

Who's going to supply me
with security immediately.

That partner is going to
look less appealing because.

Falsely concluding.

They haven't furnished this.

That's why the quote is really, I
cannot do anything but endorse it

completely based on my life experience.

And so I wanted to.

You know, to conclude the narrative.

To the question you asked about.

Falling madly in love and getting married.

Well, no, I think it's more,
yeah, there's a missing piece.

Fell out of love because I didn't have.

That self-reliance and
self-respect, and I didn't feel

like I could be a good partner.

And the times that.

The relationships, all of them have
been at their best was when I felt

capable of being a good partner and
I wanted to be, and I worked at it.

It's no mystery.

It's no coincidence.

You want it.

You think you can, and you work at it.

You will be a good partner and it
will, it will show in the results.

And.

it's the good faith patient investment.

And the return cannot always
be immediate and proportionate.

Like, so seeing it.

It's all, it's all in the marriage
vows, you know, good times

and bad sickness and health.

For better and worse.

And it's all instant poll when
he talks about love in a more

kind of communal idea of love.

So what happened was fell out of love.

And then.

I wasn't sure whether I
was wanting to live or die.

And it was very, very grim, but once I'd
made that decision, I did want to live.

I wanted to get better.

I started doing a little bit of therapy.

That was when.

Aye.

The love return.

And I felt some hope for the future.

And that's when I asked her to marry me.

But then once again, another wave of.

Uh, can I do this?

Can I be a good enough partner?

Fell out of love again.

And then when it was time to
conceive a child, It was a little

difficult at first, took some time.

But then I fell in love with her
again, and then have a child.

And there's a wave of
difficulty in self-doubt.

We have your first baby fall out of love.

Falling in love, again, that

Ali: comes back to that love is a
choice and it is a conscious choice

that you continue to make over and
over again in longterm relationships.

Yeah, because there are going to be
times when you look at your partner

and it's going to be like, now I have.

What am I doing?

I know like, like what,
you know, it's like your.

Is this yet, or I I'm so
unhappy right now, or I'm just

not feeling anything to you.

That's positive right now, but then
consciously choosing, okay, I'm going to.

Fall in love with you.

Like, yeah.

Yes.

You go back to the park.

This is something my dad had.

So he got some, some, some
religious advice before he got

married from a feast priest.

Auntie Anne.

And she's told this story
a number of times, but it's

always stuck with me in that.

Like you basically, you've
got to be the squirrel.

You've got to those lovely moments,
especially in the beginning.

You'd.

They're like the nuts and you go and you
take those nuts for your hibernation.

Cause.

Yeah.

Sometimes you have this jar full
of nuts and you keep filling it up.

But with all those lovely
moments, The camel.

And then there are going to be things
where those are going to be taken out, but

you will still have some in reserve, but
you need to continually choose to put, to

put stuff away and remember that so that
you have something to draw on and that.

That has stuck on.

I think that is the reason like,
you know, my parents have actually

stayed together as long as they have.

One of the reasons is because
there are things that they do both.

Very fondly.

Talk about.

The positive things.

Yeah.

I mean, it's not all the time.

Yeah.

But I bet it is certainly
sometimes when they about being

reflective and stuff, that there
are those really lovely moments.

And so I think, yeah.

that is something yet you need,
you continually to choose.

Those things where you can
fall in love with that person.

Yeah,

Sam: totally.

You've reminded me of a
very, some days that went.

against expectations.

You know, you can be in a rut
or just, things are difficult.

It's work babies.

It's all tough.

Mm.

And, you know, there were
times on the messages.

Get up.

And go.

Let's have a good day.

And let's, let's be someone
who's fun to be around.

Let's choose that.

Let's do that.

Doing.

Ali: On your day on purpose.

And I'm going to be purposeful
about what I do today.

Yeah.

Sam: And it's like, I'm going
to walk into the kitchen and be.

Someone.

Who's fun to be around.

Watch this and yeah,
the results are, yeah.

Yeah.

It's there.

But you can't.

Ali: And you have to

Sam: make the magic.

Don't go to a comedy show.

And cross your arms and go make me laugh.

Ali: Yeah.

Sam: You got to want it.

I want

Ali: it and you've got to do
it and the thing, and yeah.

And then the reality is not, everybody's
going to have the capacity to turn it on

and do it on purpose every single day.

But if you can do it more days than
you're not doing it, then that's

probably the foundation of something.

Pretty good.

Joe: I think we should wrap it up.

Sure.

But what, It's really interesting
saying, cause we're contemporaries.

Yes, but you're.

You're still in a marriage.

Yeah.

And trying to make it work.

Um, with young kids as well.

Yes.

Add a mortgage, the whole.

Yeah, the whole box and dice, right.

The complete nightmare.

My experience.

My experience of reality is very much.

The unbearable lightness of bay.

Ali: Um,

Joe: so like that moment you're talking
about, it's like I've found the darkest.

Most twisted, most intense
woman I could find in Melbourne.

Yeah.

I've gone up.

sexy.

Airbnb.

Yeah.

We can, but we need to eat
some dinner at six o'clock.

And we'd go to the pub.

And we get a pie.

One of those big.

Pub pies H.

And then we're just sitting there.

I know the exact, and then there's
just like, not that much to talk about.

There's like doilies and.

And it's like, yeah, mundanity.

Let's the strokes, man.

Is this it?

Yeah.

You know, it's Milan Kundera.

They are The lot in this pot is.

There is no reason to continue.

Yeah, no reason to try again tomorrow.

No reason to make this work.

There's no reason.

Like, you're an interesting person.

I'm an interesting person.

We have nothing left to talk about

Ali: and that's.

Joe: It was a 10 minute moment.

And then what was probably fine.

I mean, I think we stayed
together for months after that,

but I kind of never recovered.

From the existential void.

Ali: It's just as valid to call it
quits and say, okay, this is no longer.

Mutually beneficial.

Yeah.

And enjoyable for both of us.

We, you know, we just leave it
and say, look, we've had, rather

than let it then descend into
resentment and toxic behavior.

And then you have the horrible
breakup to actually go, oh, this is.

I think we're done and that'd be okay.

I think that's where I'm sort of at now.

It's like, you can call it.

You can call it and go.

This was good for however long.

And that versus it.

Yeah.

Or you care, but with the
expectation that yeah.

I'm

Joe: really not planning for longer
than six months and I'm making more

and more peace with it all the time.

but then I start to Marvel
at my married friends.

Who've been together for 20 years.

I really do not in a like
joking or condescending way.

I really start to Marvel that like, how

Sam: the fuck do people do this?

Well, it's, you know, it's the
same amount of work as all of what

you're doing, you know, like it's.

like Tracy Morgan.

I'm going to say earlier with the.

The episode I'll put in the notes
about the green, yellow, red flags.

And just some good advice for people
in the dating phase, but it also.

I think it applies to relationships that
are already established just as much.

she says.

Slow.

Is fast.

And like break any,
break that down further.

So apparently in the army,
they say, Slow is smooth.

Smooth is fast.

You don't go at a breakneck speed.

And then that way, if
there's any hiccups, it.

He doesn't cause a disaster.

You just, you just bring things
slowly and safely to a halt.

You check it out, you change
a tire, you keep moving.

Slow is smooth.

Smooth is fast.

Everyone's in a headlong rush.

There's no time we have to make it.

Now we're three dates in let's
plan, a romantic getaway.

No slow down, slow down, slow down.

You just going to keep rushing to
the place, you know, to get to,

and you got no game beyond that.

So.

Then there is no game beyond this moment.

It's like this moment, what's the
appropriate level of investment

and attachment right now.

Let's move slowly.

Ali: I think that's also quite.

Uh, luxury that somebody say post.

Give family planning.

Yeah.

I think that that's certainly
something that, yeah, that.

That rushing will be affected
by things like fertility.

And I actually.

Accidentally getting pregnant.

Joe: When you're getting yeah.

The funniest, the funniest guy.

It's time to get.

Exactly.

Yeah.

The finest game I like to
play and I've played it.

Not that long ago is let's spend
every possible spare moment together.

Yeah, that's psychotic.

Yeah.

Brilliant stuff.

Hey, I've

Sam: got this great new song.

I'm gonna play it till I'm sick of it.

Joe: With every song I like don't

Sam: stop it.

Ali: I

Sam: save it the more I
like it, the rare, the less.

,
Ali: this is a thing.

My psych said to me the other
night, it's good to have an

opportunity to miss somebody.

Yeah.

That you have something there.

Same again.

Sam: Make yourself scarce.

Go and have some adventures.

Ali: Your own life, your own.

And then that bit is just this lovely.

It's just an addition.

It's not the external locus of yours.

Joe: Allie, I've seen you put the brakes
on something you're quite excited about.

The external

Sam: locus.

That's right.

Joe: Yeah.

I'm like, I thought you were bipolar
gal, but you don't actually sell.

Well-managed.

I'm just going to chill and
yeah, I'll see him in a couple

of weeks and it's like, wow.

Fuck.

That's

Sam: brilliant.

How are you doing?

You don't have to smoke the whole bag.

It's

very

Ali: much an all or nothing person.

With everything I've ever
had a liquor cabinet.

All of that.

I had a look at Canada hotness,
and now it's like, no, actually

balance is probably where I'm at.

Sam: Totally.

Like you don't have to finish the game.

All in one go, dad would
always be saying to me, like,

it'll still be there tomorrow.

No.

There is no tomorrow.

All right, let's wrap it up.

All right.

Love you guys.

Ali: Love you too.

Sam: Bye.