The Ten Thousand Things

Joe: There's reality,
which is loving awareness,

Sam: unconcerned by the arising
and passing away of phenomena.

Ali: And then there are the 10, 000

things.

Sam: Welcome to the 10, 000 things.

My name is Sam Ellis.

Joe: I'm Joe Loh.

Ali: And I'm Ali Catramados.

Joe: Today on the show, how do
we know if therapy is working?

Uh, I propose this topic.

I've been doing a lot of work in the
last three years in psychoanalysis.

And sometimes as I speak, to
my psychoanalyst about, it's a

bit, unclear if it's working.

Ali, Sam, also both in therapy,
uh, what are your thoughts?

Sam: I think

Sometimes it's impossible to tell
and other times you really feel like

you've just aced it and you walk out.

Going, Oh, mate, I'm cured.

I'm there.

Joe: Oh, no.

See, I always feel good afterwards, but
what's not clear is what's changing.

Ali: Hmm.

I have like, so I'm like, Sam, sometimes
I come out and it's like, Oh, I

really feel, you know, like positive.

And then sometimes it's not so clear,

but anytime I have doubt and I say that
to my psychologist, he always says, yes,

but look, you can't compare yourself.

To like what you're thinking of
feeling you should be, he goes,

look at yourself six months ago,
12 months ago, two years ago.

And that's where I can say, actually,
hang on, this is really working because

I've made very different decisions.

I've made better choices.

it might not still have the outcome
that I want, but it's better than

what historically I would have done.

So I can definitely see it
in the big scheme of things.

Sam: Yeah, that's right.

If you're trying to measure progress
against some sort of ideal image

of the self that's gonna be, you're
not gonna see it that much of it.

You might see some, um, and yeah, it might
be good to have high aspirations and high

expectations of yourself sometimes, but
if you are, one of the big problems with

the human mind is that it's very good at,

healing over the scars of its own
changes that it's had to make over time.

So neuroplasticity,
which is like good news.

One thing that can happen is you forget
how fucked up you were and you are unable,

you're unable to appreciate the progress
you've made until you are reminded of it.

Maybe there's an audio recording or
a video recording of yourself at a

certain point, or you see an old photo
or just whatever it is that you realize,

Oh, I actually have come a long way.

So holding onto that, journal
entries are really good.

Like I don't have very many, but
I occasionally stumble across

something, you know, I wrote scribbled
down 15 years ago, and I'm like,

Joe: I've done it every day since March.

Sam: Yeah.

So yeah.

Can you, can you say

Joe: like, I had to look back
the other day, actually, I'm

a bit scared to look back.

Sam: Yeah.

It is.

It's horrifying sometimes.

Joe: Uh, yeah, I mean I, there's
stuff, there's obsessive thoughts that

are stuck in my head and I actually
use, I've been using prayer actually

to overcome one of those, uh, which
has been incredibly effective and

an atheist could say, oh well you're
just rewiring your neural pathways.

Yeah.

I would say I'm asking them high power
to help remove an obsessive thought from

my mind and finding that it's 80 percent.

Sam: If it works, it works.

Joe: That's what my
therapist would probably say.

I mean, she said that she feels like
when I came in three years ago, I

had small boy's fears and a small
boy's mind in a lot of ways and that

I've matured in the last three years.

But what you said is really interesting
is that if I haven't matured in the

previous month, I'm only referring
to myself two weeks ago or whatever.

I'm not, it's very hard to
access January 2020 Joe.

You know, so I don't, like, like
you said, if I had journal entries,

I could probably go back and have
a look and, um, it's, it's, you

know what I'm talking about
though, it is, can be incredibly

subtle what therapy is doing,

-And a lot of men particularly will go and
have two or three sessions, and I think

what happens is the therapist goes, this
person's not going to open up, get And

they say to them, you know what, you're
doing great, you don't need to come back.

And then they come back to me and
they're like, I don't know why you

spent so long in and saw a therapist
twice and they said I was fine.

And it's like, maybe the
therapist could just tell you

weren't going to do the work.

Ali: Yeah.

Sam: I still say boo to
that therapist though.

What they should be saying
instead is, okay, mate, maybe

you don't understand what like.

Actually, no, the Sopranos is not
a bad example in some ways, but you

know what that therapist should be
saying in my unprofessional, but

nonetheless expert opinion, damn it.

I've earned the right to talk about this.

That therapist should be saying,
this is more like a personal trainer.

Like the reason you've hired me is
because you're unwilling or unable

to do this entirely by yourself.

People don't get a personal trainer so
that the personal trainer can do the reps.

The personal trainer
makes you do the reps.

So you don't seem to have understood
you're coming here to do the reps.

Ali: I really love that metaphor.

Yeah.

Sam: Yeah.

And if you, yeah, if you don't
want to do the reps, that's okay,

Ali: but don't don't expect results.

Sam: Don't fuck around.

Joe: Here's a question for you.

Yeah.

Is there a 40 year old
who doesn't need therapy?

Uh, I, I, I would say no, no.

Sam: Yeah.

Joe: I would say you've had enough trauma.

Even if you don't have a mental illness,
you've had enough shit go on, by the

40, and also you've got death looming.

Sam: You're at the
halfway point, probably.

Joe: If you're lucky,
if you're really lucky.

I think if you've

Ali: got, yeah, for, for, where
was my train of thought with this?

Sorry.

Um.

Take your

Joe: time.

We'll cut it out, Ali, so
you seem really switched on.

Always sharpen you up, mate.

So what, what did you say?

Is there a 40 year old
who doesn't need therapy?

Ali: No, no, like I think you, It's in the
same way that I see going to the doctors

regularly, going to the dentist regularly
going to, you know, it's the brain

Sam: person that doesn't need to

go to a GP?

Ali: No, exactly.

Yeah.

It's a part of our body that has a
huge part of, you know, like our brains

have a huge impact on our day to day.

You should keep on top of that in
the same way that you would get your

car serviced, that you would get, you
know, like a lot of responsibilities.

And I think mental health is just one
of those things we need to add into that

needs to be maintained and updated and.

You know, and stay on top of,

Sam: yeah.

I mean, so I guess for me, it's
like a, it's like a teeth cleaning.

It's a, it's a brushing the teeth.

It's like a, it's, it's a high
frequency, uh, for other people.

And maybe it's like, you know,
that super duper clean you get

every 12 months at the dentist.

But I would suggest, even if you
don't take it up as a weekly thing,

um, some people even go twice weekly,
God knows how they afford it, but

you may not need that, but I would
definitely recommend like a good stint.

And then a break.

So like, don't go for less
than six, seven sessions.

Yeah.

And

Joe: reality is in Australia,
incredibly privileged, you can get

10 sessions basically for free.

And so, so, so people
say it's too expensive.

It's like, well, it's not if
you're an Australian citizen.

I'm not going to take the bait.

No.

Sam: But that's a rebate though.

So the thera what the therapist
charges might be considerably in

excess of what that rebate is.

You get most of it back.

Joe: You're gonna get most of it back.

It's not, it's not, it's
not a financial, it's not a

financial problem for the first.

10 sessions

Sam: also, you have to look at the
savings that ultimately you're gonna

be experiencing some major financial
savings because it's probably, it close

Joe: my mind that we, we do that here,
but we do it, you know, we do do it.

And it's amazing.

So there's no financial reason
really for most people not to get 10

sessions with a, with a therapist.

There's a stronger aversion and I'm
mostly talking to men to going to therapy.

Yes.

So I guess what I want
to lay down is concrete.

So, there's a lot of stuff Sam, like
how do you know therapies working?

Like what have you done 10 years of it?

What have you got to show for it?

Well,

Sam: there were times when it wasn't,
there were times when it wasn't working

and a good therapist will confront
that and they'll get you through it.

And so it's like, I, you know, I've
noticed a pattern in like the last three

sessions, you've done a lot of this.

And then right before we're about to
finish up, you'll get started on the

thing you really want to talk about.

Here's, you know, here's
your homework for next week.

Why don't you give a bit of thought to,

basically, you know, when you write
the long email and then you delete

the top 90 percent and the last
paragraph is the one you send.

Yeah.

Sometimes it's like that in therapy.

So you might have to do.

You might have to waste your time, in a
sense, for three or four sessions until

you kind of start to clear away some of
the rubble and you go, okay, let's get

to something that's a bit more central.

So this is why you have to make more
than a three session commitment.

And also like I, I'm very
sympathetic towards anybody,

but yeah, let's say blokes a lot
of the time that are like that.

I said, I'm fine.

And I just walked out.

Like, I'm very sympathetic to that.

I'd love nothing better than to just
have that confidence that I'm fine.

I'm no flies on me, mate.

Ali: I prefer to work
these things out myself.

Yeah.

Good one.

Good one.

I prefer to work them out myself.

How's that been working out for you?

Joe: Yeah, Bill Burr said therapy was
bullshit and oh yeah, you go in and

just talk about the few big things
that have happened and then you

don't, there's no need to keep going.

Sam: Uh, no, no, he does it.

No, he does it.

And well,

Joe: that's what I, I saw a video
of him and this is a deep fake Sam.

Oh,

Sam: it might be an old one though.

No, no, no, no.

He's, he's, he started it a
while ago and I'm pretty sure.

And more importantly though, like
he quit drinking like four times and

then it's stuck on the last time.

And he does.

Two weekly, two weekly shows, which,
I know he's on to three or four now,

where he's actually constantly examining
himself, like you see it, and so like, uh.

So he's a not a, he's a bad example for
the average person to follow because

this person is fearlessly self examining
and has been that way for too long.

He

Ali: is.

Joe: But this show is, I don't
know for you guys, for me, it's

incredibly therapeutic, but
it's also not formal therapy.

It's not.

Uh, like you talk about the end of an
email, I hit the end of a therapy session.

We're flying by the end.

By the time we get to
50 minutes, it's like.

Like, there's like fucking fireworks
going off, you know, like there's so much

flowing out from my whole life and it's
like, and that's the end of the session.

Sam: It's a bummer.

I was reading about the castration
thing, the castration complex

or castration anxiety and where
that really originally came from.

And it was Freud's observation that
people always felt like they were

making the most progress right when
the session had to end and that there

would be this fear and resentment

Joe: Make it weird and about
balls though, didn't he?

Yeah, he did.

Sam: Isn't that Freud though?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's very genital focused man.

Like where's the balls coming.

And the bum and the bum as
well, all about the bum.

But like, I think there's something
in that that like you have to place

limits on things and it was his
observation, we don't like that.

And that's actually part of the,

it's part of the essential functioning
of the therapy is that there's a start

and end time and that you will get cut
off and that you can't, you can't self

indulge endlessly and that you will
always feel, um, although it seems

like Joe's going out on a high, but
like, I always feel like, damn it.

There was more I could have done.

And then what that does is it
focuses the mind on, well, what

is the more you could have done?

Joe: And then you focus for next week.

But like, yeah, I don't take drugs, but I

would love to do like, uh,

The an MD M D M A six
hour therapy session.

Yeah, so M D M A first came about and this
is how it's used now with That's right.

It was used clinically at first.

It's, it's used now with people with ptsd.

Ts

Sam: ptsd, TS d Yeah, I'm,
I'm gonna sign up, could

Joe: handle like six to eight hour M D M
A therapy session where I talk about my

relationship with my parents or whatever.

Sam: I wanna do the ketamine actually.

But yeah,

Joe: just take ketamine.

I can get you some.

Just fucking take it.

Something really weird will happen.

Time will stop working.

You'll feel like you literally
spend eternity in there and then

you're like, time kicks back in.

You're like, oh my God.

I was in there for eternity and
like my hand was giant and like

it's stressful as fuck, you know?

But you feel maybe good the next day.

Sam: I would, you have to
get the exact right dose,

Joe: but yeah, you are not talking.

Can it mean you're not
doing talking therapy?

Oh, no, no, I mean, I'm
interested in doing both.

For MDMA, your emotions are
protected and opened up, right?

So, but leaving with it, I would do seven
hour caffeine therapy where I just drank

coffee and talked more and more and more
and more and more with my therapist.

Like, there's no, I haven't found a
limit to how much therapy I can do.

No.

I would, if I had the means.

And I'm a long way off this,
I would go twice a week.

Yeah.

Go twice a day.

Sam: Twice a week.

I'd go

Joe: twice a week.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Where I'm at now in therapy at
three years, it's now's the time

to go twice a week because I
don't fucking waste time in there.

If I go into therapy and talk about
the woman I went on a date with

last week, I'm wasting my time.

Yeah.

But if I go in there and be like, you
know, in my household when I was 12 years

old, there was always this blah, blah.

It's like, she's never told me to
talk about my childhood, because

she just sits there and doesn't say
anything at all, and won't even, if

I say, G'day, how are you, she'll be
like, doesn't matter how I am, Joe.

So

Sam: Yeah, we're here to talk about
you, there's a tip from the top,

uh, yeah, if you're not entirely
sure what to go in there and talk

about, just Just pick any significant
childhood memory and start there.

Like it'll, it'll lead you somewhere.

Joe: Yeah, but they won't
tell you to do that.

You can decide to talk about whatever
you can go in and just talk about what

you have for breakfast if you want.

Yeah, it's your time.

It's your money.

Sam: Also, I think a lot of people
hesitate to go to therapy because

they don't want to go in there and
walk away hating their parents and

blaming their parents for everything.

It's actually the opposite of that.

Yes.

It's about letting go of blame and hate.

Yeah, it really is.

Ali: Oh, that's a good one, Sam.

forward.

Yeah, I've certainly experienced
that with, when it comes to my

family and any resentments and
things like, and being able to move

really positively forward with that.

Like that's, that's been huge

Joe: for me last week that she feels
like we're, our relationship's so much

better since I've been going to therapy.

Sam: Yeah, it should be.

Yeah.

Joe: And I've processed a lot of stuff
to do without my relationship with her.

And it's like,

You think that you're going to be
prosecuting your parents in the, but

yeah, it's exactly what you just said.

I think.

Sam: Work on yourself, man.

That's it.

Yeah.

Joe: I think it's a big misconception.

And we also have the dead parents, Sam.

Sam: Yeah.

It seems especially unfair, doesn't it?

But it's like

Joe: they're sainted.

Yeah.

Right.

That's right.

The sainted dead parent.

But it's.

It's still worth looking at
your relationship with them

Sam: and it's through like
that exploration of...

You have

Ali: to, in fact.

Like yourself and then, you know, and
seeing yourself as a complex and flawed

person and then seeing your parents as...

Sam: In the same light.

Ali: In the same light as complex and
flawed people who made mistakes and

then, yeah, that understanding and
forgiveness and going, okay, I know.

Yeah, this might've been a mistake
and it's also acknowledging,

okay, this really hurt me.

I, my feelings are valid around that, but
also similarly, they were doing the best

they could with what they had and you
know, it wasn't a malicious, you know.

Thing.

It was just, you know, they've
made a mistake and it doesn't

minimize the impact it's had on you.

But yeah, it gives you an understanding
and like you said, a forgiveness

being able to move forward,

Joe: which is fundamental to growing up.

Yeah.

Yes, exactly.

That's actually what growing up is.

Yes.

Giving your parents, yeah.

Sam: Yes.

It's brilliant.

It's 90% of it, I reckon, and, and it
because, and not to understate it, because

it's like, oh, well great, well fine.

I'll just forgive my parents.

Done.

It's like, eh, actually, yeah.

You haven't gone into it yet.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And yes, you might walk out of a
session hating your mother or your

father, that's part of the work, but
that's not going to, that wound is not

going to stay open and fester forever.

And another way to think about it
is that wound was already there.

And then you, what you've had to, yeah.

Joe: You've been very clear
that in hindsight, your parents

shouldn't have sent you to a martial
Hare Krishna boarding school.

Yeah.

It was a big mistake.

The weirdo that you ended up becoming is.

Yeah, in large part due to
the trauma of that time.

Sam: Yes, there's a lot of manure here
that's turning into roses hopefully,

but the truth is it's and as much as
like I've made So they fucked that up?

They did.

They fucked it up.

And as much as I've made interesting
stories out of it, I've made, I've made

a meal out of it in the past, but this is
something I've been wanting to share with

both of you actually that I've just, just
last week, I think on Tuesday night, I

was going to get out some podcast work or
something and then instead I picked up the

journal and the pen and, and then I went,
no, I'm not going to do a journal entry.

I'm going to write about boarding school.

It was not such a conscious intention.

I just, I was finishing the dishes
up and I was like, ah, the words

were coming to me, describing in
a kind of flow of consciousness.

I was running around the temple in
Melbourne and then I was like, and

then I get on the plane and then I'm
at the other place and all the boys

are crying in the dormitory at night.

And I was like, ah, I really need to tell
this story and I need to tell it properly

and not as an entertaining anecdote.

I need to get to the truth of it, which is
that it was very painful and therapy has.

We've been doing more and more
work on the boarding school thing

and less and less on other stuff.

So,

you know, when I first went into
therapy, I thought it was about

more recent things, the death of my
mother, the loss of this relationship.

My struggles to start a career.

And it's just, no, go back.

It's, oh, it's about the teenage years.

No, no, go back.

It's always, keep going back.

It's like, no, no, no,
the wound is earlier.

All of this other stuff is just echoes.

And look, don't fall for the illusion
of the one wound either, because

it's never quite that simple.

But so to stick to my point here,
Adams helped me get back to the, and

it even goes back before the serious
separation from the family at age six,

but there's things before that, but.

That's the big thing.

So finally I'm writing this story
properly the other night and I, I was,

I felt, I felt like very emotional, but

I felt this great sense of fulfillment
and satisfaction at the same time.

Right.

And that's what, that's the.

That's the best of what you'll get out of
the therapeutic process, a feeling that

you're doing what you need to be doing.

And that something's been resolved.

Something's been resolved.

And you're that much closer
to, well, and it may not always

feel like a complete resolution.

So that's the other thing you have to,

you might have to lower
your expectations about what

Joe: it's going to feel like.

I asked my therapist last week,
I said, can I resolve this stuff?

And she said, no, no, but you can carry
it much more lightly than you have been.

We

Sam: have to carry these
things lightly, Adam says.

I was going to say,

Joe: Ali, what...

How do you know that
therapy is working for you?

Ali: Well, like even like this last
week, um, I opened up to Joe about

some stuff that had happened to me
when I was younger, which I'd always.

Historically, what one did not speak
about at all, I couldn't even verbalize

it, I got to a point where I could start
to verbalize it, but I would get myself

into such a state of extreme distress,
like we're talking like throwing up,

crying, like it was really extreme.

And so I just, it became a
thing like, I can't talk about

it, I can't talk about it.

And I know now over the years, like.

The last few years doing EMDR, doing
like lots of trauma therapy, it's been,

I can now, it's not that there's still
no emotion when I, I mean, I'd love

to get to a point where I don't have
emotions attached to these memories

and I don't know that I ever will.

I said that to Joe, but a much
more manageable thing that I could

discuss something that's happened
to me in a way without getting, you

know, completely falling to pieces.

And that's because...

Joe: But without being detached from

Ali: it either.

Yeah, it's not detached from
it because it's still very

hard and painful to talk about.

But, I haven't...

Yeah, I mean, I don't talk about
that openly with many people at all.

Um, or at all, really, I mean, mainly
in therapy, but yeah, just being able

to, you know, as my, and I, I did
say to my therapist this week, I was

like, Oh, I was actually able to speak
to a friend about, you know, some of

this stuff, like for the first time.

And he was just like, this is huge for
you because there must've been a, there's

a level of trust and safety there with
your friend that you can actually,

that information's not going to be.

Yeah.

Okay.

Weaponize or used to hurt you or any
way and that you just felt safe enough

to be able to openly share What I think

Joe: that's the thing about friends who
are all doing therapy Which is us on this

podcast is that you shared that with me.

It was horrific Maybe one of the worst
things I've ever heard from someone I

know but and then it stayed with me for
a couple of days and disturbed me but

because I'm doing therapy That's okay
Because I got my own shit floating around

and it's always kind of disturbing me.

Focus on someone else's.

So, well I was actually able to
hold Ali's stuff, like because

I have a process and I've got a
person that I talk to and I like, it

gives me capacity to take on adult

Sam: stuff.

I think you're ready for a
relationship after all, Joe.

Because

Ali: it's, it's interesting, like,
I've always been very much...

It's not with Ali.

It's a

Sam: wonderful thing you two
have got, don't mess it up.

Um,

Ali: yeah, but like being able to
share, yeah, sharing that information

and knowing that yeah, it is.

Yeah, I don't want to expose anyone
to any sort of vicarious trauma.

It's quite, it's quite,
it's not a, like, yeah.

And feeling comfortable that, yeah, Joe
would be able to like, to handle it.

And him also reassuring me
that you can tell me or that,

yeah, I can, I can handle it.

And, and knowing that,
okay, he's, you know.

Yeah, he's not going to
take this on personally.

He might think about it and think,
you know, might have to process

Joe: it.

I just get really curious as to like
why people are the way they are.

Yeah, and until they
explain to me their trauma.

Yeah, it's very, it just becomes,
if you get close enough with a

person, there's a certain point
where the stuff that's hidden behind

Yeah, the black wall or whatever.

You need to know that stuff because
it's hinted at all the time.

Completely agree.

And...

Once you know the extent of it,

Sam: It's so much easier
to forgive that person for

Ali: things.

Or just an understanding of like,
oh, I can understand why they're

behaving the way they are now.

It is, it's that understanding of like,
why on earth would that person do that?

But in the context of, well,
they've experienced all these

things and this is the patterns of
behavior that are a result of that.

Oh, that makes

Joe: sense.

And the, the, the, the part, the, the
way that I didn't like to get that

information was working on a psych ward.

You could look up people's file, and you
could see what their trauma was, as in

the criminal stuff, or stuff that had
happened to them, and I used to never

look up patients files, because I only
ever wanted them to tell me, as a peer

support worker, what they wanted to tell
me, and not be defined by it was Whatever

horrible things that happen to them.

Whereas a lot of the clinicians would
look at them as defined by whatever

horrible things that happen to

Sam: them.

And the same thing often
happens in education.

Yeah.

Ali: Yeah, because it's yeah You're
looking at it through the lens of okay

Well, these these traumatic events
have potentially created a series of

personality disorders or like diagnosable
things And so I mean from a clinical point

of view that they would need to know that
information Whereas your role as a peer

support worker is different in that you
don't have to have that lens clouding,

what you're providing to that person.

Joe: But the wonderful thing about
my therapist, and I would broaden it

out to say about psychoanalysis, and
she's a Lacanian trained psychoanalyst,

also a clinical, clinical psych
who's worked in hospitals, and maybe

still does, because she's mysterious,
doesn't tell me anything, but like,

The refreshing thing about her, I had
psychologists in the past who kind

of gave me a bit of a pat on the back
and said, Oh, you're not doing so bad.

Oh, we all worry about stuff like that.

Don't worry about it.

You're doing good.

Um, I think the right lady will come
along and think you're just great and

like nice older lady therapists, you know?

Yeah.

And my current therapist is an
older lady therapist, but she...

Looked at me, and she
wasn't, it's the same thing.

She didn't just, a psychiatrist
looks at me and says, he has bipolar.

Yeah.

Which is a genetic thing, which
is a brain chemical thing, which

I'm gonna give him medication for.

Yeah.

And I don't really care about his
childhood or his past relationships,

I'm just gonna give him these pills,
that'll be 600, and the last psychiatrist

I saw said, take these two things
for the rest of your life and don't

come back, get on with your life.

And I was, I, look and I've
stuck to that and he was right.

But that's, that's, it's, it's a bit
more like going to see a mechanic or

something, you know, it's like, you

Ali: can't, They're not so much interested
in the reason why, they just know how to,

Sam: Whereas

Joe: Peter was willing to step
right back and be like, I don't even

care about your bipolar diagnosis.

I'm not going to...

It's neither here nor there for me.

It's neither here nor there.

Let's work out why you
are the way you are.

And if some of that involves some
bipolarity, she almost approaches

it like a literary device.

Like she was talking to me the other day
about two tracks of thought, my father and

my mother, and they're on separate tracks.

And she's like, that's a very bipolar
way of looking at it, isn't it?

But they're gonna have to converge,
because they're not actually

separate, the way that you've
laid them out in your mind.

So she'll use the bipolar thing as
a mechanism, but it's almost like a

literary mechanism to open up a story.

She...

Creates the strongest impression
that she thinks my bipolar comes

from what happened to me as a child.

It's not just something I was born with
that was triggered by some marijuana use,

which is what a psychiatrist would say.

Yes.

And she does these little smiles when
I mention, you know, a psychiatrist.

I wouldn't say that, and they just go,

Sam: hmm.

Ali: Therapists, they I mean, there's
a lot of evidence with bipolar that

there's obviously a genetic component.

There's a genetic factor,
but it's actually a traumatic

event, not necessarily drug use.

It's actually trauma that then triggers
it into becoming, to be expressing

those traits as genetic traits.

Sam: years since, 30 years since Dolly
the sheep or whatever, and we still don't.

Have strong genetic correlates
for a lot of mental illness.

Like it's really pretty poor,
but it suggests that nurture

is playing a huge role here.

Joe: I would suggest Sam, I'm
going to do a Sam impersonation.

Yeah.

Right.

You ready?

Yeah.

To any bipolar people out there,
I would suggest you have both a

psychiatrist and a psychologist.

Yes.

Now the psychiatrist will keep you
functioning in capitalism and paying

your bills and rent or mortgage.

That's true.

That's true.

'cause they'll medicate you correctly.

Yep.

So that you can be functioning,
be functional, functioning.

Yeah.

Psych, minimize side effects
might actually help you work

out why you have so much pain.

Yes.

And drama in your life.

And you might actually
overcome a lot of this stuff.

Yes.

So there you go, Sam.

I did a bit of advice to the listeners.

I try not to give advice.

It's exactly

Sam: what I would say though.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think, no, I think, I think
it was a fair impression.

It was very complimentary to me.

Thank you.

Joe: I think it's
because you're a teacher.

You're quite comfortable just being
like, I think you should try this.

It's more than comfortable.

I get very uncomfortable trying to
suggest to anyone that they should.

Sam: It is.

It's not just comfort.

It's a, it's a goddamn awful
habit that I have, yes, of being

didactic, Joe, I do apologize, but so

to return to the subjective experience of
existence, um, one of the ways I can tell

I'm making progress is ironically that,

that I'm containing things more,
that I don't feel the need to tell

this big old story to someone.

It's like, Oh no, no, no.

I'm doing that work.

Yeah.

I'm processing it.

And I'm not saying we should
do our therapy and clam up and

never bother anyone else with it.

But one of the, one of the problems I
had was still working on, obviously,

was poor boundaries and like not
containing and holding enough stuff.

And so getting, so that's
just one way to measure it.

For other people, they're containing
and holding too much and the measure

will be they are sharing more.

But

Joe: it sounds corny, but it's as
simple as, tell me if I'm wrong.

Yeah.

It was horrible.

Yes.

But you left the boarding school?

Yes.

You're never going back there?

No.

And it's like, that's
in the past now, Sam.

You're never going back there again, Sam.

And it's like, some of this stuff we're
walking around, I can't, a psychologist

might be able to explain why you
are certain ways because of those

childhood boarding school experiences.

And why are you in the world trying
to use the most words and get the

most attention or whatever, right?

Sam: Well, it's not hard to see, yeah.

Joe: I struggle to see some of that stuff.

That's why I wouldn't be
a very good therapist.

But I can understand from doing
therapy that they're gonna...

The part of the job for you is to
close the door for one last time on

that boarding school and really feel
in your body that you're now safe

and you're not being trained to be a
paramilitary Hare Krishna kid, you know?

That's right.

Only you can do that.

The therapist can't do it.

I can't do it.

Ali: They can say it.

Like they can suggest like, yeah.

They can't say it in the first session.

Not in the first session.

No.

They've got to hear you

Joe: for

Ali: years.

You've got to, yeah, you've
got to really feel it.

And then like, yeah, they can
direct you towards you are safe now.

I certainly have had my psychologist
tell me, yes, but like if I'm, you

know, talking about a perceived threat,
yeah, but you're safe now you're

here in an, in a very grounding way.

It's like you're in this room with me.

You are safe now.

Even though this person, you know.

He's not here anymore or whatever, you
know, you are safe right in this moment.

Sometimes I actually just really
need that grounding in that moment.

And he's very good at that and
picking the time and place to do that.

Yeah,

Sam: that's right.

They have, they have to avoid
editorializing as much as possible,

but, but it's like, for example, to
hear from Adam was very affirming,

you know, recently he just, he really
didn't want to say it, but he kind

of eventually felt the need to do it.

That C.

You are a competent pair of hands.

You, other people can trust you.

You can trust yourself.

You

Joe: don't get that out of them easily.

Sam: No, no, no.

I get quite a bit

Ali: of that.

Joe: Like yours is a much more
of a booster than mine and Sam's.

Cause you're not doing psychoanalysis,

Ali: are you?

Oh, no, there's, that's, there's
an element of that, but it's

more, but he definitely does.

Cause so much of mine is self doubt
and, you know, and criticism and,

you know, imperfectionism and where,
and he's, you know, sometimes I just

objectively need somebody to take a
step back and go, here is the evidence.

Yeah.

No, like when I'm going on about
something that I've done wrong or fucked

up or whatever, he's like, yeah, but
you've got to show me the evidence.

Show me the evidence where you
have such this, this narrative of.

You know, and so he makes me argue
it out with myself, like, why am I,

why have I, you know, is, you know,
Ali, this horrible piece of shit?

She's not like, you know, but I have
to argue it out to get to that point.

And that's how I process things.

And that works really effectively for me.

Sam: It sounds like a very
workable method for the particular

circumstances you're dealing with.

Whereas I couldn't even, I found it very
hard to access the self blame at all.

Like it took, it took a long, well,
I mean, no, it would come and go,

but it was, it was often neurotic
and kind of too much in the self pity

area and not enough in the truth area.

So it's like actually getting to a
point where you were willing to say

that where I was willing to say in
therapy, no, I am a piece of shit that

I, you know, and I've let everyone down.

It's like, actually that took a
bit of work to actually get there.

And, and it was a necessary,
like, um, cause it's not a true

statement either, but it's like.

Whereas a lot of women will
go straight in with that.

Ali: Yeah.

Like, yeah, that's, that's my default.

Like program is okay.

What have I done wrong?

How have I fucked this up?

You know, like, yeah, yeah.

How can I make this right?

Yeah.

That's the default.

That's not the resolution.

The default is that.

And so it's then actually, okay, well.

Is that really RA based in any
sort of rational That's right.

You know, thought process and it's,
it's not, most of the time it's not.

No, it's never, yeah.

And, and

Sam: adjusting the, you know, like I, I
heard a Jungian say on a podcast that,

you know, Jungians will put a lot of
work into deconstruction and they tend

to see that as their main or even only
priority a lot of the time And you got

to remember that some of the Jung's
original patients a lot like Freud's

middle class women who badly needed
Deconstructing they were too constructed.

They were too put together.

Their identity was Far too defined
and all of their roles and relations

to others was all, in other words,
they were living in a, a corset.

Yeah.

If you were, and it needed to be
deconstructed and pulled apart.

But let's say someone else comes in,
they're a, they're an, they're an addict.

They're sleeping on couches.

They're this, they're that, that
person does not need deconstruction.

They need construction.

Yeah.

And it's like, ah, okay.

So having a really important
realization early on.

Uh, no, five years into therapy that I
came across this information that was

like, Oh, different people are going
to need different things in therapy.

It should have been obvious to me and,
but you know, so, yeah, and I think, I

Joe: think we should wrap it up,
but I think it comes down to what

I would call the final level boss.

Yeah.

So I'm, when I met my therapist,
I was 40 full of fear and

The last thing I needed was
another pat on the back.

Yeah, there's a huge back,

Sam: there's a back pat
trend at the moment.

I wanted to say this Joe, I
nearly, nearly got to it earlier.

I keep coming across references to
the pat on the back in therapy, and

I think, yeah, there might be too
much of that going on at the moment.

I had those

Joe: therapists in my 20s and 30s.

Um, all women, like, you're doing okay.

You've got it.

Isn't it hard?

You've got bipolar.

Yeah.

And I just sat down.

How do

Ali: you feel about that?

And I'm like, I know I feel like shit.

I just want someone to practically
tell me how to live my life.

That was my huge argument for, yeah,
with why I didn't think historically

that therapy worked for me.

I knew what had happened.

Sam: Don't tell me it's okay.

I'm being a disaster.

I don't want to be a disaster.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's

Ali: more the day to day.

I'm really struggling with it.

So I know all the, I can rationalize.

It's everything horrible thing
that I can understand very quickly.

Okay.

Yeah.

This, this came from my childhood.

This pattern of behavior
has developed from that.

I can put those bits and
pieces together quickly.

And as my psychologist would say,
almost too quickly to my detriment,

Sam: I was struggling Yeah.

So

Ali: whereas I can put it
all together and have the

understanding of it really quickly.

It's just, it doesn't translate into
really functional behaviors as an adult.

Joe: Intellectualized feelings.

I can't feel them.

Mm.

So I can turn them into words.

Yeah.

I do this, I'll do it on this show
a lot, but I don't feel anything.

That's right.

That's a tough one.

But yeah, I'll, yeah, I'll finish up.

But like the final level boss concept
for me and with me and Peter is, You

finally get into the room and you sit
down and you say, Hi, how are you?

And she says, it doesn't
matter how I am, Joe.

And then sits there
and just stares at you.

And she's got this real
intensity about her.

And then there's an uncomfortable
silence and it's like, Oh, so

what do I need to talk about?

Nothing.

Uncomfortable silence and just waits, but
intense, like incredibly intense eyes.

And it's a nice environment, and you're
in a nice part of town, and you're sitting

on a nice chair, and then it's just like,
your brain, all the social mores are gone.

That's right.

We don't need to be polite.

You're never going to
find out, is she married?

Does she have kids?

Is she a lesbian?

Like, I'm never...

I will never in this environment have
to ask you a single question about

your own life or try and make sure
the conversation flows two ways.

This is not a two way conversation.

This is an exploration and it's like,
all right, so why am I so scared about

This, you know, and, and we get into
it and three years later, I, I just do

not walk around with as much, as much,
I've talked about my anxieties a lot

on this show, and some of that is my
coping mechanism, which is I turn it

into a Woody Allen esque neurotic humor.

Yeah.

Yeah, right.

Sam: Picaresque

Joe: escapades.

But what I'm actually feeling in my chest
and my gut is a lot less fear and that's

partly my addiction recovery work And
it's partly the work that I've done in

therapy and now finally three years later
I can get into stuff from my adolescence

That is the fundamental, like, I finally
hit pay dirt three years in, you know,

so that's how I know therapy is working.

Um, I'm finally talking about the shit
that I really needed to talk about,

but I took me three years to get there.

Yeah,

Sam: I'll finish on that.

Yeah, makes a lot of sense to me.

Go on Ali.

I was

Ali: gonna say three years is
about the mark, like I went in

after my hospitalization and I
was like Very optimistically,

I'll get this done in six months.

Right.

And my psychologist laughed at me.

And he's just, he's like, he's like,
well, look, you can be as diligent

as you like, but you know, that's,
that's pretty, that's optimistic.

He goes, I'm not saying it can't
be done, but like, you know,

and I said, well, how long?

Like, you know, I don't want to
be doing this for like 20 years.

And he said, three years.

He's like three years, you'll see
the, so I'm a, I'm sort of at the

two and a half year mark now, so
I'm huge difference almost there.

Not quite,

Sam: but almost.

So final thought.

Yeah, man.

Uh, look, I, I wish someone had said
it's gonna take more than three years.

You know, I think I needed to
hear that at an earlier point.

Um, but I think honestly,
my therapist might have had

higher expectations than that.

But I think I proved to be a very tough
case and that I managed to, uh, I'm not

saying that like that, The therapeutic
challenges themselves were necessarily

more difficult, but I think I was very
good at obstructing the work, and very

good at avoiding it, and that it took Adam
a long time to, for example, one day say,

You know Sam, I think you were, did
one of the rare editorials, you know,

and it really goes in when he does
it, you know, I think you um, I think

you were befuddled and exasperated.

by the world and adults most of the
time and I think ever since you have

been exasperating and befuddling others
including me and you can keep doing

that but I don't think you want to and
I think you've exasperated every one

of your partners you've exasperated
your friends you've exasperated your

employers yes yes yes and then when I
came across ADD ASD, it was like, this

is why you're exasperating everyone.

Well, yes, but no, there's other reasons.

And one of the most remarkable findings
in this process has been, if you'd have

asked me at the start, am I persuaded
by the idea that childhood of events

will, you know, impact adulthood?

I'd have said, of course, you know, but I
don't know actually how convinced I was.

And honestly, I think I've
been resisting the conclusion.

I've, I've ended up many times just
continually coming back to this.

To this illusion that like, it's
all happening in the present.

And that the self is like much the same
from moment to moment and I think we

stubbornly, a lot of people, myself
clearly more than most, stubbornly

hold on to this idea of the integrity
of the self and that, you know, this

illusion of the separate self, you know,
cling, I cling to it as well as being

very attracted to getting rid of it.

That's most humans.

Most humans and the ego is so strong,
you know, the determination to

craft it and shape it and own it.

Um, and you know, Thank you.

I think that's gotten in the way of doing
the work, honestly, and it's taken a long

time to go, No, no, no, these childhood
events, greatly impacting the present, but

actually recognising that I'm a different
person then, and then, and then, and

then, has been incredibly difficult to do.

Recognising that I can change,
recognising that, that I wanted to change.

So, that's the really, the most helpful
stuff I can offer, I think, to others.

You, you probably do want to change.

You might be struggling to believe
it's possible, but I'll, I'm here

to tell you, no, it not only is it
possible, it's inevitable that you're

going to change one way or the other.

Let's try and craft that in a
positive direction as far as we can.

And, and,

but also, um, I've got a very
unaspirational statement to offer as

well though, which is that the end
result of therapy may be to accept

ordinary human unhappiness, which was.

What was said so long.

That's all I want, Sam.

Joe: Yeah.

I mean, I keep saying,
we'll finish on this.

Yeah.

But, uh, look, the childhood stuff.

Yeah.

It's a cliche.

We spoke about it in my last session.

Yeah.

It's a cliche for a reason.

It is.

And the one thing I learned in addiction
recovery, things are cliches for a reason.

Sam: And the same themes
keep occurring in that work.

Joe: There's a reason I don't
pick up a drink one day at a time.

Now that's a cliché, there's
a, it's incredibly helpful for

me to remember that one cliché.

That's right.

Uh, and in Diction Recovery
there's hundreds of them.

In therapy the one big cliché is
it's all about your childhood or

it's all about blaming your parents.

Yes.

But each individual's journey, just
remember that you're going to start

in good self analysis with a blank
screen and no one's ever going to

tell you to talk about anything.

And if you end up in your childhood,
it's because you realize that the

other stuff was a distraction.

Sam: Yes.

That's right.

And please, if, if, yeah, anyone's
listening, going to therapy next, just,

yeah, get into some childhood stuff.

You know, like there was a thing
that I'd be wanting to tell Adam

and I'd told my, and I've been
putting it off for weeks, right?

And I told myself, Oh, this thing's
just a little curiosity that he

might be interested in, right?

I, look, here's a little curio, a
little knick knack I found, a little

object for your mantel shelf, Adam.

You know, this will be of
interest to you as a professional.

And then that one little thing
was the entire 50 minutes

and it was a hell of a ride.

And I was like, Oh, okay.

What an odd little story to tell yourself.

Yeah.

That like, oh, uh, this is for your
amusement and dilatation, Adam.

I'm sure you'll enjoy this little thing.

And it's like, no, no.

You

Joe: dunno what that was for you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You dunno what the citizen Kane Rosebud
sleigh is, but you probably have got one.

Yeah.

Right.

Alright, let's finish up.

Yep.

See you guys.

See you next week.

See you.

Love your work.

Sam: See you.

Bye

Joe: Bye.

Bye.