The Ten Thousand Things

Joe: There's reality,
which is loving awareness,

Sam: unconcerned by the arising
and passing away of phenomena.

Ali: And then there are the 10, 000

things.

Sam: hello and welcome
to the 10, 000 Things.

My name is Sam Ellis.

Joe: I'm Joe Loh.

Ali: And I'm Ali Catramados.

Joe: Today on the show, "are
we willing to compromise to be

in a monogamous relationship?"

Ali, you sent us something to the
group chat a little while ago.

Uh, we thought it was so good,
we thought we'd get you to

read it out, if that's okay?

Ali: Yeah, sure, um, yeah, I just
posted this, in the group chat for

discussion and, just chatting with
one of my girlfriends, if you have

the luxury of being single for long
enough and realize you not only enjoy

your time to yourself but really value
the spare time you do have, do you

become more selfish or unwilling to
compromise and therefore end up alone?

Not a bad option, just a different one.

We were talking about relationships,
and even the most happy ones come

with a fuck ton of compromise.

And do you just get to a point
where you can't be bothered and

don't want to do that anymore?

Or, do your relationships look drastically
different to a traditional live in

arrangement, where you live apart, travel
alone, et cetera, to accommodate your own

individual needs within the relationship?

Joe: Hmm, I feel like this
is very relevant to the late

30s, early 40s, single person.

So Sam, you're our token married guy.

Uh, so I mean, I think maybe a broader
discussion about how to compromise

in relationships, given me and Ali
are single, could be good today.

Um, yeah,

Sam: I think that's definitely
something worth discussing.

How to, and whether to, which is part
of this, and how much you need to, which

is probably the most important question.

And figuring out that's going
to be different for everybody.

But I certainly don't think anyone
who's going to be able to escape

compromise in this life, um, whether
it's with friends or employers, or if

you, even if you run your own business,
there'll be compromises involved.

And then, so it becomes a question
of how much we feel our true identity

is being traded away and when
that becomes unacceptable or not.

Joe: Ali, you're talking about
girlfriends who've fallen in love

with being single, like being alone.

Ali: There's definitely
that element of it.

Joe: Terrifying thought to me as a single
guy, that there's women in this city

who just really prefer to be on their

Ali: own.

Yeah, it's not an

Sam: unappealing...

Joe: Haven't you heard of
bros going their own way?

Oh God.

Yeah, I know a couple of guys
who've retired from dating at 40.

Sam: Yeah, that's men going their own way.

It's not good.

It's, I, that's not healthy.

I want to refrain from judgment,

Joe: but I'm judging.

Yeah.

All right.

But

Ali: I was going to say like, there's,
there's the appealing aspect of it,

but what's to go back to what Sam was
saying, I think, and I was talking

to somebody about this last night,
the compromising, I think if, if, if,

if you're compromising your values.

That's where it's fundamentally
going to fall down.

If, you know, you can make
compromises about things that are,

you know, not as important to you
or, yeah, you can work around.

Because, like you said, you have to
compromise in every interaction, whether

it's work, school, relationships.

There's always going to be
an element of compromise.

But if you feel like you're
compromising your values, that's

where it's going to fall down.

Like, you're not going to be able
to navigate that because those are

so fundamentally hard to shift.

Sam: Yeah, and sorting out the
difference between what my core

values are and Whether some of these
other things that I thought were

core values, they might actually
have been neuroses as it turns out.

And you know, uh, so unfortunately
I'm not going to be able to hand

anyone an easy formula here.

I think it's going to come, a lot
of it's going to come down to, am I

actually happy with this particular
thing that I think is really important?

Like how well is that serving me?

And it may turn out that a thing
you think is essential to you as a

human being, and I absolutely must
not and cannot compromise on this.

It may turn out.

That is actually a piece of
stubbornness in you that would

be much better to let go of.

Ali: It certainly can be really flexible
and again, like this discussion we

were having last night about it, it's
like, you know, in safe, and we use

the example of someone, you know,
with a sugar daddy or a sugar mama.

In that you may not, like in a, in a, the
context where it's an equal partnership,

there are certain things you are not
willing to compromise on, but, you know,

and, and the example I used was like,
I don't want to pick up after a man,

like, I don't want to pick up, but like,

Sam: No one, no man
should be expecting that.

Ali: No, but.

If he's like a billionaire,
sure, will I pick up?

Sam: Maybe we can talk.

Ali: Yeah, I was like, well, maybe I
will pick up your dirty underwear off

the floor, because you're a billionaire.

Really?

Joe: What's, what's the

Ali: logic there?

So you, you, you, that your values
can potentially be compromised,

because the benefit, outweighs the

Joe: compromise.

So you'd take cash, like...

Money to

Ali: be some kind of...

So the problem is capitalism
rather than actually...

Yeah, that's what I was about to say.

There's a throwback to a lot of women
who are just like, I'm exhausted, I

don't want to work, I just want the
sugar daddy, where's my sugar daddy?

I can totally, and the problem is
not so much a reverse back to the

values of back in the day where
women were, you know, kept women.

It's as...

from that dynamic, they're
actually just seeking that because

they're exhausted and burnt out.

And that's a problem from capitalism.

Yeah.

And

Sam: it's not like it's necessarily
a closely held aspiration that like

they've arrived at after much thought.

Ali: Well, for most women,
it is like, yeah, which is

Sam: fine.

But it might often just be a state of,
yeah, I'm, I'm ready to throw my hands up.

And just declare work to be a hoax.

Ali: And I just want to be taken care of.

Sam: Yeah.

And I can fully understand wanting
to do that for a month or two.

I think, I think most, most people would
probably be ready to stick their head up.

You know, at least pick up a part time
job after that length of time, like you've

had a little time off, you know, but

Ali: how am I going to pick up
a part time job if I'm traveling

around the world on yachts?

Cause my billionaire sugar daddy, that's

Sam: exactly, that's exactly right.

But also the other question that was
raised there at the end is like, or is

it very different now with maybe people
living separately, et cetera, et cetera.

And certainly that was a thing that was
more possible to do 20 or 30 years ago.

because the price of housing.

And I knew couples that were like
living in separate residences and

not, you know, grand or large, not
even like average size family home

per person, cause that's ridiculous.

But you had your own

Ali: unit or apartment.

Sam: You had your own place
and that it worked quite well.

And I remember the friend of a, sorry,
the mother of a friend saying to me

years ago, and you know, she seemed
middle aged to me then, but she was

probably my age and was saying to me,
Oh, we were talking about relationships.

she ventured an explanation
for why she hadn't repartnered.

It was in context.

She said, yeah, I've met many
fine men, and loved one or two

of them, but I just, I just found
myself unwilling or unable to.

Even to say to them, Hey, move in.

I just was not, was not ready.

I didn't want to, and it wasn't like
any of them had necessarily placed

any hugely onerous expectations on me.

I just didn't want to compromise at all.

I found myself just, I didn't want to,

Ali: I feel the older I'm getting
and the more I date, the more that's

becoming very solidified and it would

Sam: really...

She said that I'm stuck in
my ways and I feel like it's

going to be hard work and like

Ali: maybe 10 years ago it would have
been a different situation but now

Joe: I'm coming up on eight years
without having lived with it.

Girlfriend.

Sam: Maybe you're unwilling
to compromise too.

Joe: Well, that's what I was
going to say and I think I am.

Uh, I want to be able to
watch Test Cricket for seven

hours, five days in a row.

That's not up for negotiation.

Yeah.

For example, that's just one example.

Yeah.

I mean, to miss my footy team playing
footy to go to the fucking opera.

So,

Sam: that is a spurious
example, if ever there was,

Joe: but, what's completely spurious
is what Ali's talking about with

billionaires and sugar daddies.

It's just a way of framing the discussion.

No, no, but for her and her friends
having real relationship challenges

and trying to work out how to build
a, you know, a structure that works.

This stuff about, I'm billionaire's
underwear is a complete distraction.

Oh

Ali: yeah, like, I mean, it's
complete fantasy from, like

Joe: an extreme case of, yeah.

Why do you say that?

Like, I find it depressing that...

That women are now saying, oh, I'd
rather not work and be a housewife

Sam: or have a sugar daddy.

Joe: Well, I think what they're
And now you want to go, what,

back to picking up underwear?

It's gross.

Like, don't even joke about it.

Sam: Well, I personally, I think
it's demeaning to both parties, but

Joe, I'd be, there's, He wouldn't

Joe: respect that guy.

He wouldn't respect you.

No, but that's not the point.

He wouldn't want to date you.

He wouldn't want to take you for dinner

Ali: if you're picking up his underwear.

The problem is capitalism.

It's the problem of feeling overworked
and being spread too thin and that's,

it's merely a symptom of that.

It's not that people are desperate
to have that sort of power and wealth

inequality within a relationship.

They're not.

No one actually wants that.

They just, want a bit of a holiday.

Sam: That's right.

And that's right.

And in distorted times, people will
contemplate distorted arrangements.

Joe: That's what I'm saying.

We need to hold our integrity.

Sam: I agree.

I agree.

But can I say, like, I think that if a
person's self worth was not bound up with

their job to the degree that it is, then
this would be a different conversation.

So like.

I think often one of the biggest
areas where couples will struggle

is with work life balance and that
a lot of relationship problems,

um, come not so much from personal
incompatibility, but a lack of time

and energy to work properly, just like
you would in therapy, systematically

carefully work through, various

bottlenecks, distractions,
dilemmas, resentments, all the

things that just naturally occur.

And all of those things have to be
given quite a lot of time and space

and patience to be dealt with properly.

If you want to get to a good place and
falling in love and then having the good

place for six or 12 months is easier
than get getting to this other thing.

And so I don't, don't
begrudge anyone their choices.

But if, if we're being told that
like, your job is your be all

and end all, that's who you are.

And that's what the sisterhood fought
for and go in there and be an okay admin

person and let that fulfill your life.

And Oh, by the way, you're going
to feel exhausted at the end

of every day and you'll have to
negotiate somehow this state of

emotional exhaustion with a partner.

Ali: Exactly.

And yeah, you're going to
be like, who's picking up.

You know, the work around the house,
who's picking up the underwear, who's

going to cook the dinner, who's even

Sam: going to decide what
we're having for dinner.

Ali: Exactly.

And like that, that level of exhaustion
I've certainly felt like in living

in arrangements where it just.

You become resentful and a nag,
and I don't want Even small things

just turn into huge problems.

Yeah, and those, you know, arguing about
who hasn't done the dishes, it's the

bigger problem of feeling like I'm not
feeling like you're pulling your weight.

I feel like I have to think
about every single decision.

Yeah, and

Sam: this other person doesn't
understand how much pressure I'm

under at work, blah, blah, blah.

Ali: Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, and those

Joe: resentments and I, these are
the conditions, and Capitalism, which

becomes immediately irrelevant because
it's like saying, oh the problem

on earth is that we breathe oxygen.

It's like, that's not changing.

So they're the conditions.

And the happy, healthy couples I
see actually both have really good

careers, busy careers, and like, the
ones that I go, wow, you guys are

making it work, are busy as fuck with
work and they have high level, high

stress jobs and they make it work.

I'm miles away from that.

Sam: Okay, look, if you're both home
unemployed around each other all the

time, that's going to be an issue too.

How many

Joe: go to work for both parties have
been the same since about the 70s?

So none of this is super relevant
or new to the 21st century.

You're not working any more hours
than someone was 30 years ago at all.

So, I mean, some of this is just whinging.

Like, yeah, alright,
you've got to go to work.

That doesn't mean you can't
make a monogamous relationship

Ali: in someone's work.

We're still, even though we've, we've
progressed from the seventies, like

in a lot of ways and, but yes, we are
still both, you know, say you've got two

people working those very traditional
heteronormative gender roles of what

is expected around the house still to
a certain degree has not progressed.

And that's the problem is that women,
there is still a certain expectation that

they will still be the primary caregiver
that will be across all the cooking

and cleaning and the household admin.

Really?

Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

Amongst literally every woman I know,
absolutely, there's still an inequality.

I don't know any guys that

Joe: aren't expected to cook and do

Ali: the dishes and look after the kids.

There's real studies and evidence that
the mental load of running a household

still predominantly falls to women.

That's just

Joe: thinking about it more.

That's not doing

Ali: it more.

No, it is.

It is.

It's thinking about it and doing it more.

Like that is absolutely...

Joe: I think the argument about whether
men should do the dishes was over a

long time ago and men do the dishes.

Ali: No.

No.

Absolutely not.

Joe: Where are they

Sam: not doing this?

Well, certainly, I mean, all I can offer
is one worthless, one worthless anecdotal

evidence, which is you'll, you'll never
catch me lounging around on the weekend.

I'm always getting jobs done.

And I just, whether that's what's expected
of me or not, I don't know, but that's

just, I don't feel like if there's things
that can be fixed or mended, or there's

things that need tidying or cleaning, or.

I'm playing with the kids
or we're on an outing.

So like, that's how I spend my weekends.

And then when it comes to evenings,
yeah, I'm taking care of others.

And then at a certain point,
all the chores are done.

And then I've got a choice.

I can like work on a project or I can.

I can go to bed.

So like, yeah, but that doesn't

Joe: necessarily leave a whole example of
someone who's still married and making it

Ali: work.

I would say you're the
exception, but it doesn't say

that that's the, I think that's

Joe: wrong, but

Sam: I don't, I think there's a fair
few blokes that have around these

Joe: parts.

Yeah.

Come on.

No, absolutely.

Melbourne.

You think men aren't doing what?

Sam's talking about.

Ali: They might be doing it,
but not to the extent that...

Joe: You just don't meet the ones who
are doing it because they're all married

and they're all like tucked away.

But the reason...

You're not meeting them on a dating app.

No way.

They're the ones like me who live on
my own and I might leave the dishes

for four or five days and no one
cares because my kids aren't there.

Make sure they're clean
when the kids get there.

And like, I leave a lot of stuff now to
just stay as it is when no one's around.

And this goes to what your question, like
what you read out at the start, is like...

You know, the extent of what
I'm not willing to compromise

on isn't actually that much.

It's, it's just that I do want that
couch time with my sport, and outside

of that, if a woman was coming to my
house regularly, let alone moving in,

I would clean more And I would be on
top of the housework more, but what I

get to do without that is completely
let all that slide if I feel like

it, or if my mood's off or whatever.

And that is a win for me, like that
is a positive that I get to just

relax on all that, what Sam's talking
about, that constant drudgery.

When my kids aren't
there, I don't have that.

I don't go to the supermarket
to buy food to cook.

Yeah, I don't create many dishes.

I don't wash many

Ali: dishes.

Yeah.

I think that's the reality of most
people who live by themselves.

Yeah.

That, that you don't have the pressure to
be there for another person in that way.

But going back to, I do believe that
when, that that division of labor

does predominantly still fall to
women, and there's so much evidence

Sam: of that, that, and, and I'll
acknowledge that there's a, there's

an area where the labor is still.

Um, cause like I'm doing more of
the physical, like the grunt work,

um, domestically, but there's,
there's a lot of life admin

that I feel like has increased.

And with children, there's just so
much paperwork and like on, you know,

emails and online stuff to keep track
of, and I don't know if that's evenly

as evenly divided as it should be.

Ali: I, I, I still get sent
or called from the school

regardless of whether who's weak.

Like they, the default is to call mom.

That's right.

The default is to send the information,
information to mom and then for

me to distribute it to, my son's.

So it's very much that those things

Sam: are so It's not just

Ali: the school stuff.

It tends to triage, like
you said, everything.

And it's that mental
load that is exhausting.

It's not like, it's not just having
someone proactively go do the dishes.

You're like, Oh, can you do the dishes?

You're still managing it.

Joe: But the male mind approaches
the same problem to say.

What's the worst that could happen if
I tune out some of those school emails?

Sam: Yeah, I think that is
actually a valid response.

And guess what, Joe?

A lot of, a lot of...

You still

Joe: find out about the concert just
in time and you get down to it and, you

know, if there's a really an emergency,
yep, they'll call both parents.

If they couldn't get on to
the mum, they'll call the dad.

And most of the things that

Sam: actually...

Imagine

Joe: if you just...

Drop some of that mental load.

That's what I'd advise.

Most of the,

Sam: well, this is, well,
this is But you love it.

This is what gets us This is the

Joe: contradiction.

You actually love it because

Sam: you're a concerned mum.

That's a dead, that's a dead end.

But I think where the
conversation is more You do.

Where the conversation is more productive

Ali: It's really not.

Sam: Sorry, Sam.

No, no, that's all right.

No, no, it's, I think that there's I
can imagine maybe a holdover from your

earlier relationship where maybe there
were times when, you know, the mother of

your kids cared more about things than you
thought was necessary or even desirable.

Joe: No, no, that's still the system.

Same system Ali was talking about.

School rings mum, you
know, the emails go to mum.

She's carrying the mental load
about anything school related.

I get

Sam: the emails too, and then they get,
I get them forwarded to me sometimes.

It's mostly

Joe: spam.

It's mostly just not relevant crap
that they send from the school.

Sam: Yeah, and so, but also, can I
say, like there's a lot of women I've

observed in like the school community
who will be really on and off with being

all over it one month, and then they've
had it the next, and I overhear them.

Seriously, they were all over it.

They were passing on info at one
point and now they're standing

there at the gate going, I don't
even know what's happening anymore.

Ali: There's a curriculum day.

Sam: Yeah.

And what is this?

I don't understand.

And then it's someone else's job.

One person's gone and said, I'll
assume responsibility for these things.

Someone else has said, I'll go ahead and
assume responsibility for these things.

And there's not necessarily
a lot of communication or

clarification going on around that.

And there wouldn't necessarily have to be.

If both people had a sustainable
workload and felt like...

If they could rely on each
other, well, then you probably

wouldn't need to discuss much.

Ali: There are things that you
might be inherently bring to the

relationship that you're better at.

Just say you're a better organizer.

You're better at doing those things.

So those duties are going to fall
to you and they're going to be other

things that the other person is
better at, like remembering the kid's

friends names and Pokemon stuff.

So it makes sense that you would
naturally fall into those things.

I think the problem arises when.

, the, the assumption that women are somehow
better at the organizing and the, see, I

don't even know the arranging the doctor's
appointments and all that nonsense.

Like, I don't think women are just,
they're necessarily No, they're normal.

Absolutely.

I'm not like

Joe: so much.

It's a general, it's a
general trend you can point to

Sam: though.

That's accurate.

But also I think that both
couples are, and look, we, we

need, we need to get off like.

We need to get away from couples
with children at some point, to

actually just talk about, let's just
say, Yeah, I want to get back to the

Joe: question, which, the topic.

Older

Sam: people aligning with each other,
let's say, long after the children

have grown up, and they're both
set in their ways and used to their

independence, and he likes going on
cruises, but she doesn't, you know,

how are they going to figure it out?

But that's,

Joe: like, we're being a bit conservative.

You said, oh, yeah, I remember
someone in the 90s who used

to live in separate houses.

It's like, hang on, what about, like,
Simone de Beauvoir and John Paul

Sartre, didn't they live separately?

Yeah, of course.

Like, this has been going on forever.

The assumption in the topic is that
you'll meet someone on a dating app,

have a great six months, then shack up.

And I just don't see that
happening very often, actually.

I think we've already moved past
people who've come out of divorces

or had kids or just burnt out by
the late 30s and still single.

The, I don't think it is a high
probability that the next person you're

going to meet you're going to live
with, so I think the assumption of

this topic is maybe just a little bit
outdated that, that, that the, that the

fallback is somehow to live together.

I mean, where do you think, Ali,
where do you think we're actually at?

What is the expectation if you've,
say you meet someone, you fall madly

in love, and the red flags aren't
there, and it's been six months, you're

having a great time, is there still an
assumption that you would live in the same

Ali: house?

I think.

We're socialized to believe
that that's the case.

I still believe that's very much
the way we are, you know, that

would be the expectation and those
conversations usually do start to

arise around that six or 12 month mark.

It's like, okay, what are we doing?

Are we going to move in together?

Like those things definitely come up.

I, I think where Sam was saying
in that, you know, like you were

saying, historically, people www.

engvid.

com Thank you so much for joining

Sam: us today and we'll see you

Joe: in the next one.

Bye.

Bye.

Bye.

Good luck.

North Carlton Sharehouse with a bunch of
other young women and almost relive my

youth a little bit and be going out and
getting bagels on a Saturday morning.

And I, we got to have
the best of both worlds.

Yeah, that's fun.

And then.

That got to about the six month
mark and it was going to make

more sense to probably shack up.

And then I did my usual thing
and just became emotionally

unavailable and ended it.

But

Sam: like...

Sounds like you, yeah, sounds
like you don't want to be moving

in and having anyone step on your
prerogatives even in the slightest.

Joe: Well, would I be happier if I
didn't have the opportunity to be a slob?

No, no, because Maybe I'd be
looking around my very neat...

But, you know, look, my place
isn't too bad at all, but some days

I will, some weeks I will leave
the dishes for four or five days,

and Sam, you could never do that.

No.

But I'll put it to you that if
Kath kicked you out tomorrow, the

flat that you live in around the
corner might not be the cleanest.

Most well,

Sam: uh, that's an, it's interesting.

I don't know.

Maintained

Joe: apartment.

You

Sam: know what I mean?

I would certainly have the option.

Joe: You would.

When the kids aren't coming around,
you can live like you were 21.

So no, it's

Ali: interesting.

I got like dating plenty of men
and then you get to see their

apartments and you get to see, you
know, and you actually get a little.

Yeah.

You've seen a lot.

I've seen a few, but I've seen

Joe: more pictures.

Hey,

Sam: hey, hey, slam,

Ali: slut shaming.

Come on.

But like some of them, yeah, you see
like, oh yeah, they definitely live.

Like a slob or then you say,
well, this is my question,

but then there are others that are
absolutely like fastidiously clean.

Yeah, there's something very appealing
about like someone who has a fastidiously

clean home and you're like, Oh,
this is a fully functioning adult.

This is attractive.

Like, there's something very
attractive about seeing a clean home.

I can

Joe: mock that up to make my
place look like that very quickly.

I'd

Ali: say like these, like, just
I'm thinking of specific examples,

they're very much live like that
and that's just their day to day.

Sam: But you're not a
hoarder, are you, Joe?

So you don't, no, you're fine.

Like on that front.

Joe: Yeah.

Yeah.

Thanks.

Look, it's been a fairly fallow period
while I've been doing this podcast,

and I must admit there's things like
the ironing board doesn't get put away

anymore, it just gets ironing piled up
on it in the lounge room and things...

Ali: Ironing?

Who irons these days?

I don't iron it.

I have to get

Joe: my white shirts, white t shirts, very
crispy white to go under the tracksuits,

so I pay my daughter two dollars an item.

I've heard that eshays,

Sam: eshays need to be good at laundry.

Yeah.

I've

Joe: heard.

I've heard.

No, that's the only reason
to iron the white t shirts.

Yeah.

Ali: I don't iron anything.

It's not in my skill set.

And

Sam: you're certainly not going to be,
no woman is going to be able to iron

that t shirt to your satisfaction, Joe.

You know.

Oh, my

Joe: daughter does.

It's fantastic.

Jesus.

Ali: But like, so just so you
She makes good money out of it.

Sam: It's capitalism.

Oh, I see.

I see.

I see.

But

Ali: I'm saying like, if you shacked
up with someone, the expectation is

your partner isn't picking that up and
then ironing your t shirts for you.

Joe: I've never dated someone who
wasn't a pretty hardcore feminist.

And I've never had my fucking
undies picked up, or, like,

Ali: even, a bit, this stuff that

Joe: you talk about, to me it's
like, from the 1950s, I have

no idea what you're talking

Ali: about.

No, I'm not joking.

This is outrageous.

And it's not just one person.

It's not one.

We're not talking one.

They said they expect
you to do their laundry.

No, they didn't say anything.

They didn't say anything, it
just appears there, and you're

like, okay, am I doing this now?

Like, I mean.

And you did the laundry.

When I was young.

Would you like me to

Sam: burn this for you?

I mean, R E S

Joe: P E C T, Ali.

I know, when I

Ali: was young, and I didn't know
any different, and like, that sort

of very defined gender roles was
modelled to me from my parents.

It's just, oh, okay, well,
that's what I've got to do.

But then, you know, since...

This is in the 21st century.

No, well, now, I certainly
would not tolerate that.

I absolutely...

Like you can take your stuff home.

You can take, I'm not
cleaning up after you.

Or this is how the, you know, do you need
help with how the washing machine works?

Like that's about it.

Like I'm not doing that anymore.

And that's become like a bottom line
for me as far as one of my values.

Like, so my psychologist
years ago, when I found myself

single, he made me write down.

All the things that were deal breakers
and the things that I was looking

for in a relationship and the deal
breakers are actually things that

are fundamental to our values.

And so, yeah, one of them was like
dating a fully functioning adult man.

And that was, and what I meant by
that is somebody who can take care of

themselves and put in, in a, on the
home front and in an equitable way.

Yes.

I just don't want to do that again.

Cause that's definitely been my
experience and I know I'm not the

only woman that that has happened to.

That is absolutely the
experience of lots of women.

Sam: And let's say that there was
a scenario where, You, you find,

you found yourself doing it and it
was not like, um, it was not like

a, a huge like burden work wise.

It would nonetheless interfere
with your respect for that person.

And it's just as simple as that.

Ali: And you become resentful because
it's like, okay, I don't mind putting on

a load of washing if you've chucked some
things on, but when are you ever going to.

Just do a load of washing
with my stuff in it.

And then, or even worse, like, you know,
they'll, you know, the sort of the, you

know, um, feigned incompetence where
they'll deliberately wash something

that is, you know, and do it wrong or
shrink something or ruin something so

that, Oh, you do it better than me.

So that job now falls to you.

And I've, again, a lot of that
weaponized incompetence is.

It is not just my experience, like a
lot of women have experienced that.

That's right.

You're the better cook.

You're better at organizing the kids.

And that was sort of what I
was arguing before is that why

is it that somehow women are
perceived to be, it's a mum thing.

It's not a mum thing.

Some women aren't great cooks.

Some women aren't good at the admin.

Some women, you know, are crap at laundry.

Sam: I knew lots of women, lots of
women growing up, for some reason, I

think people's mums would confide in me,
but yeah, they would often say things

like, I fucking hate doing the cooking.

Yeah.

And I'm like, like, oh, like
you hate doing it all the time.

No.

I never liked it and never will.

I'm like, okay, like, you know, dad
would cook like two nights a week

and mom was just burdened by it.

Like she just didn't like, didn't
want to do it most of the time.

She had too much on and even without like
a full time job, she had a lot going on

and to keep up with four children and,
you know, community work, volunteer stuff.

And she was, you know, as well as running
her own little enterprises, like small

financially speaking, but huge labor wise.

And.

Yeah.

And at one point she just like gave up
and just, we found easier solutions, let's

say, to the problem of feeding everybody.

And that was a necessary and
like useful compromise to make.

And I look, and can I just say,
I saw my parents make loads

of compromises between them.

And I think it was not always an easy
process, but you know, dad could be quite,

Stubborn and sort of, he would take a long
time to get used to new things sometimes.

And mum would worry
unnecessarily about things, Joe.

So that was, you know, I'll,
I'll pay you a slight bit of

credit for your point earlier.

Some women care more about
things than they should.

I actually do agree with that.

it's not as easy as it is saying,
here, I release you from the

need to give a fuck about that.

Ali: You don't have to worry
about the 45 school emails.

Sam: Yeah.

Yeah.

And the thing is.

That's right, and so what this goes
to, I think, is like, let's say, even

taking children out of the picture, two
people entering into just any level of

cohabitation, or just spending any amount
of time around each other, it's one of

the, like, Uh, you know, has you had
to do, uh, with your psychologist and

also when you were in the hospital, like
auditing your connections and all of that.

This process of like fearlessly auditing
our lives and where things are at, what

we can expect realistically from ourselves
and from others, what we're willing to,

um, you know, be flexible on and what
we feel like we can't compromise on.

Okay.

But how many people are actually
really itemizing this properly and

Ali: the first time I was asked to
do it, yeah, it was my psychologist

and I was in my late thirties and
I'd never thought about that before.

Like, Oh, these are the things
that actually really bother me or

these are the things I really want.

And I hadn't really thought about it.

It was more just like, I'm
attracted to this person.

I have a nice time with this person.

I'm going to be with this person.

I shouldn't have to think
about anything else.

Yeah, exactly.

Rather than actually the practical day
to day stuff that actually really does

impact whether you have a successful
and happy, healthy relationship.

And.

Yeah, being forced to do that and
really look at it and have it as a

reminder and I still go back to it.

I still look at them regularly.

I've got, you know, very clear
lists of what I want and what I'm

willing and not willing to accept.

And it really, you know, yeah, cause
sometimes you can get carried away

with, I'm so attracted to this person.

And then you have to actually take a
step back and go, hang on, they're going

to fundamentally not meet these values.

Because the thing is Ali,

Joe: it's not hard.

My mom's one of these people.

It's not hard to meet.

A woman in her 70s who gave up
on men around their early to mid

40s and just went, you know what?

Fuck this.

And I think women are much, we've
spoken about this And there's a

Sam: lot of blokes that too, they
just don't talk about Well, like

Joe: I said, there are a couple
of people I know, my age, who

I've heard the rumour that they've
just gone, we don't date anymore.

And I would say that's not healthy
because that's a sexual anorexia.

Kicking in in your early 40s, where you
should still be having healthy sex and

intimacy and that kind of thing, um,

Ali: But who's to say you
can't have those things

Joe: without...

Well, you can't without
someone else, generally.

No,

Ali: no, but I'm saying you
could still date to have sex

or like see people to have sex.

No, no, they're not

Joe: dating to have sex,

Ali: they're not dating.

Okay,

Joe: and they're just not having...

They've just gone, I'm done with it all.

And I think it's more common for women to
do that than men, Because it's not obvious

in this topic that you or all your friends
are gonna decide, you know what, yeah, I

will compromise on a bunch of stuff and
have a big hairy man who leaves his jocks

on the floor of the bathroom in my house.

I don't think you're leaning, I
don't think you guys are leaning...

In that direction, and I'm not leaning
towards, you know what, I don't really

need to watch every ball of that
test match, that's crazy, of course

I want to go and eat a Devonshire tea
in the Dandenongs mountains instead.

I'm not leaning that way at all, like
not even slightly leaning that way, so

it's like I would have to be head over
heels to give up on my obsessions, let

alone the addiction recovery work and the
therapy work I've done in the 15 months

since I was last in a relationship.

Joking about the cricket to one
side, like this has been incredible

work that I've had to do, but
I've done it as a single person.

Ali: So I would say a lot of these
women have made those compromises

though, in their thirties for fertility
reasons, as in they would not have

necessarily settled down with that
person in their twenties or like 10

years before, but because for a variety
of reasons, they want to have kids,

they have made compromises and are now,
you know, have made babies with these.

Men, and for whatever reason,

Sam: made babies with these babies,
I'll begrudgingly acknowledge

their adult biologically.

Well,

look, honestly, I just want to
say like, sorry, Ali, I really

should let you continue with this.

It's an important train of thought,
but like, if there's any one

that's male listening to this.

And you're not picking up after
yourself, like, please, for the love

of God, do it, do it for your bros.

Do it so that Ali can just one
day come on the show and say, Sam,

I think it's, I think it's over.

I don't think there's any men
not picking him up anymore.

I think it's a thing of the past.

Like, can we like men, we
are holding ourselves back.

We're holding the women folk back
with this nonsense, like, stop it.

Joe: And I'll just say I never
try and give advice on this show

or tell anyone else what to do.

Sam's quite happy to
do that, I've noticed.

Look, I'll say this as if
someone's listening to you, Sam,

why would anyone listen to you?

No,

Sam: no, no, no, I'm, no, I'm, no,

Joe: I'm, you can talk about your
own experience, but when you do

share advice, it's like, no one's
tuned into this cause they're like,

want to hear Sam, the expert on

Sam: blah, blah.

Joe, I'm not actually seeking to
influence anyone's behavior here.

I'm expressing a feeling
that I have, which is.

I am

Ali: collective sadness
for the state of men.

Sam: I'm actually really tired and sad of
hearing these retrograde conversations on

the radio, like just the same old stuff.

Endlessly.

Men still aren't doing this,
men still aren't doing that.

That's reflecting poorly on me.

And I'm sick of it.

Like, I feel like I'm not getting
credit for what I'm actually putting in.

I don't mean within the, these,
within this house, I mean

within the broader community.

Like, I feel like because of these
other, like, no hopers, that I'm

walking down the street with people
looking at me and going, look at

that cunt, he never does the dishes.

Ali: Or is it that, like, have
you heard of, there's a phenomenon

about like men wanting compliments?

or Acknowledgement for doing basic things.

Where's my compliments?

Yeah, exactly.

And that, that women, I definitely
want praise for everything.

So yeah, you want praise for something
that like, you know, look, look, I

picked my underpants up off the floor.

Am I a good boy?

No, whether it's that, or it's just
like men, the expect expectation,

I somehow want praise for doing.

The Bare Minimum, which women
do not get praise or even

acknowledgement for, it's just

Joe: like...

It's definitely, yeah, I
definitely identify with that.

I want constant praise
for everything I do.

But

Sam: this is, look, and I don't
think that's necessarily wrong,

and I think that a good couple...

Um, I'm just going to say this and
people can feel free to disagree.

I think if you are not in the habit of
regularly showering the other person

with like, plausible compliments and
plausible acknowledgements, and if

you're not doing that, why the hell not?

Like, it's not hard.

Joe: Cause the last few years
of my longterm relationship

was like, forget about it.

And by the time we got into
couples counselling, it was like

the slightest hint of anything
positive coming towards me.

Sure.

There was so much resentment.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And, and, but because I haven't gone into
a long term relationship again, there's,

there's also been very little praise.

Like, but you know, so you see, so you
get it from making a woman feel fantastic

and then they look at it in this way.

And you go, that's your praise.

It's very rarely isn't
words of affirmation.

Sam: Yeah.

And to be honest, I
don't always need them.

Like if, if the other person's like
happy and glowing and they feel like

they've done a good job, then I'm happy.

But

Ali: that's still
acknowledgement in itself.

Like it's whether it's saying, Oh,
thank you so much for cooking dinner or

just, yeah, like you said, that loving
look, it's still an acknowledgement

of thank you for doing this lovely
thing for me, whatever it may be.

That's important.

And those things are the first
things to go when you're overworked

and you become resentful.

Sam: So sometimes you have to put
the ritual formulas in place in

order to make up for the lack of
the natural feeling of like, well,

right now I'm not on cloud nine.

Yeah.

But

Ali: thank you for doing this
thing for me because actually in

the big scheme of things, that's
actually going to be really helpful.

So thank you for putting on the washing
or cooking dinner or whatever it is.

Joe: We'll wrap it up,
but tell me this, Ali.

What is the benefit of
having a live in man?

I mean, is it sex on tap?

Is it someone to give you a cuddle?

Is it just a warm body in
the bed on the regular?

Sam: I was gonna say, these undie not
picker uppers, are they at least, like,

bringing some good game in other areas?

Like, will they listen to your day?

Not just for you, but

Joe: for you.

Just speak on behalf of
your girls, your crew.

Ali: There is, it's not to say that,
yeah, like these, these men don't bring

lovely, wonderful qualities with them.

They, they're, they're, there's
a lot to be loved about them.

Some

Sam: of them were even good to look at.

Ali: Yeah.

Like they were, you know, or they
were really good cooks and like, you

know, they just weren't really good
at the cleaning up part or they were,

you know, such a low hanging fruit.

It really, but like, I think for
me, like the things that are really

lovely about having a live in
partner is it's actually just at

the end of the day, having somebody.

That you can go to with your
day and it's just there for you.

And they're all, they're like, yeah,
it's, it's a really nice feeling.

And the, and you know, you can talk
about your day and then it's like, Oh,

you've, you've had a really rough day.

Let me get dinner.

That is so lovely.

I would, that is, that would be lovely
because when you're by yourself, you

have to rely on yourself for everything.

And it's such an unrelenting thing.

It is.

And having just somebody not
to lean on all the time, but

just occasionally would be.

Lovely.

I, that,

Joe: that's where I...

No, no, but the time, right?

Forget about occasionally.

You're doing it occasionally.

Anyone can do.

Occasionally you just download a dating
app, you find someone No, but I'm saying

like in a consistent, you see them
a fortnight and that's occasionally

Ali: I can do that.

What in a consistent No, I'm
saying in a co consistent way.

Having that day to day,
someone doesn own it.

That's

Joe: saying you to sell me.

Alright.

Sell me on the idea of
shacking up with someone.

Ali: I don't, I

Sam: "Ali, do the impossible and
persuade me to trust a woman again."

Yeah.

Ali: I don't know that shacking
up with someone is the way to go.

I don't know that I would.

I I

Joe: guess I assume that I'll do it again.

I do assume

Sam: that I'll do it again.

Joe, you are totally, resolutely committed
to this idea while simultaneously...

Not truly believing that you can do it.

So yeah, it's a tough spot to be in.

But I

Joe: look at you, Sam,
and it seems bloody hard.

Yeah, it is.

And I don't know Cath well,
but it just seems hard.

Like, it just seems arduous.

Sam: Well, she has two jobs.

Like, so, like, I need to mention that.

That like, it's very, it, the reason I'm
doing more than most blokes is I need to.

under the circs like there's just no
alternative either that or we pay an army

of staff and with what spare money exactly
so it's like i'm happy to use while my

body and mind are still working well and
i think it's also helping to keep me fit

honestly and keep me mentally healthy like
that's how arduous it is yeah yeah well

which is insane to me i mean the fact that
i don't sit around much is really good

for me and when i do I just stare at the
wall, and that's really good for me too.

I think

Joe: that you're, yeah, it's surprising
as someone I met when you were wild, wild

20, we didn't know about ADHD, it wasn't

Sam: invented in 2000.

The level of self neglect was outrageous.

Joe: Yeah,

Ali: like a wild, wild
man in your early 20s.

Joe: Seems very familiar.

The most scattered, wild, like, you know,
the only person who seemed completely

scattered when they hadn't actually
taken acid the night before, that I knew.

It's true.

That person now, to be in this
harness of incredible structure, and

everything's kind of structured, and
like, no shade on cats, but it is quite

hard to pin you down for a time to do
a podcast recording once a fortnight.

No, no, that's true, Joe.

Because you literally barely
have three hours up your sleeve.

Well,

Sam: actually, can I, although,
I want to be clear about this.

You're the one who told me...

"Freedom is living by self imposed rules."

And I like, and I was like, yes, yes.

Right.

So what I had at that point was self
imposed standards, which was good, but I

didn't actually have rules or I did, but
they were kind of unconscious aspirations

and I wasn't following them consistently.

And, and this does relate very
nicely to the topic of compromise.

Because you're not going to be able to
compromise successfully in a relationship,

even if you want to, if you haven't
actually got some consistent aspirations,

and if you don't have some consistent
values that you are shooting for, a lot

of the time you'll be chasing your tail.

Trying to get your partner on board
with this and then on board with that,

but if you do have some self imposed
rules So like 12 rules for life that

yeah, exactly Stand up straight,
clean up your room Yeah, that's right.

Have you made your bed?

Have you made your bed?

have you tried to...

It's annoying how right that is.

Have you tried to bring
the patriarchy back?

Why don't you do that?

What I'm getting at is the person
needs to have What I was lacking was,

Joe: I was grafting, I was doing
the, no, no, well, I mean, It's

always a bit fucking ambiguous,
that's what used to do my head in.

Yeah.

If you give me tasks, ten tasks to do
at work in a work day, I'll get it done.

Yeah.

Very, uh, diligently.

Yes.

But it's a bit vague in a domestic

Sam: sense.

It is

Ali: incredibly vague.

And you can't then rely on your partner to
then delegate those tasks because they're

by default putting them in a managerial
position that they didn't ask for.

That's right.

And that's the argument.

Joe: I've just made a friend
from, I've just made a friend

from Alabama and he talks about

.
Do you get many attaboys from Kath when
you get the day's tasks done or is it just

Sam: unspoken?

Yeah, no, sometimes.

Like it'll come in the, it'll
just come in the form of.

There's a good vibe because things
are functioning, you know, and

it's like, well, the thing is, but
I've got expectations of my own.

There's things she
needs to keep on the go.

There's plates she has to spin, like,
and like, if I'm able to, if we're both

able to hold onto that, the reality
that the other person is spinning

plates, everything goes pretty well.

Joe: There's no day off
from this job, is there?

No.

There's no rostered day off.

There's no Sunday.

Nope.

And that's the part.

But see, I don't have to worry
about this part, Sam, because I'm

not about to ever have kids again.

My youngest is 10.

She's becoming a bit more self sufficient.

We've spoken about how the 14
year old's doing the ironing now.

So she's pitching in, which is amazing.

Yeah, that's super cool.

They both get themselves
ready for school, et cetera.

So the real, where you're at
with the real little ones.

Sam: I'm making the investment now.

Yeah.

But

Joe: that hard labor period is gone.

So whoever my new...

Perspective partner that I'm going to
live with that I imagine does exist.

You're not going to have these sort

Sam: of strains to do this?

He's not going to have

Joe: these kind of strains.

No.

Ali: So it's, it's, it's, you'll
have the energy and the time.

To be able to enjoy that
time with your partner.

And so you start to look
for different things.

Yes.

And it fundamentally comes back
to how do I wanna spend my time?

Because your time is precious
and you realize, yeah, I

spend a lot of time at work.

I really value my downtime.

How do I wanna spend my, who
do I wanna spend that with?

Do I wanna spend it with my family,
my friends, you know, a partner?

That's right.

And is that, what is that part?

Like what am I getting from them?

What are, you know, am I giving to them?

Yeah.

You know, you don't, basically, you
don't wanna have that time spent.

You know, arguing over petty shit,
like, you know, cleaning up the dishes,

Sam: it's such a waste of life.

You want

Ali: that time to be like,
Oh, we're going on holiday.

We're talking, you know,
we're listening to music.

We're doing, you know, whatever it

Sam: is that you want to do.

Or we're just gossiping about
the neighbors and having a good

Ali: time.

And having a nice time.

It's relaxed and you're at peace and
it's, you know, you've become very

protective of your peace and inviting
somebody into your life to create drama.

Why would you do that at
this point in your life?

Sam: All right, preach, preach, yeah,
yeah, be protective of your peace, that is

Joe: good advice.

I mean, and that's been my journey
for the last 15 16 months, was coming

out of the incredible melodrama of
the worst relationship I've ever had,

but also the most intense as well,
with some highs in there as well.

You were looking for those highs?

Yeah, yeah.

I took the highs, gotta
bank the highs, but like...

Yeah, in my early 40s to be going
through this incredible melodrama and

seeing it distract me from my kids even,
I remember one time having a fight on

the phone while my kids were there.

I never had a fight in front of the kids
and thinking, Whoa, this is what you

said at the very start, Ali, values.

These are not my values.

My values are not that my kids will ever
see me fight with someone I'm dating.

They never really have and I never
really want them to, you know,

and we, We broke up so that they
didn't live in a house like that.

Yeah.

So to bring that intensity, this
one time I had a fight on the phone

and I was like swearing and stuff.

And I remember my youngest looking
up at me like, Oh, what's going on?

She sensed the vibe and that threw me.

It's like, that's when you come out of
the melodrama of what relationships,

unhealthy relationships can be and
back into your other life, which is the

domestic life I have with my two daughters
and go, Whoa, this is, this doesn't,

this doesn't align with my values.

Yeah.

Sam: So, and this is the kind of.

thing that a lot of women have had to
confront many times in the past and And

I think that maybe one of the reasons why
I did hear more than one woman in the 90s

say they weren't going to re partner, and
I think it had a lot to do with children

and they didn't have that confidence

Joe: that...

But women with kids as well, you've
got to think about the stepdad, the

stepdad's often going to be the monster.

Correct.

Like statistically, he's often
going to to introduce a stepdad?

Yes.

Whereas I don't have, maybe I'm naive,
but I don't have that same concern

with my daughter's meeting a woman.

Correct.

And I just think that's a
statistical reality that the most

less likely they're going to be.

There's the evil stepmother, sure, but not
so much sexual abuse and stuff like that.

Sam: No, not as much of that, certainly,
but there might be other resentments.

Oh, there's

Ali: resentments!

I was just talking about actual...

I was just talking about
damaging emotional abuse that

can occur between like...

But in saying that, what you
ultimately hope is any step parent

is just another person there
to love and support your kids.

I mean, whether they, you know,
it all works out that way.

It's been my experience,
blended families is very tricky.

Yeah.

And it's talk of talk about compromise.

Yeah.

It's real.

It's real.

And like, ultimately that was what
broke down one of my relationships was

that that compromise was neither of
us were willing to budge on the way we

parent and, you know, and Yeah, that's

Joe: what about you now, Ali,
your son's just turned 15.

Yeah.

Do you, you can all, you can factor
that in a lot less now, can't you?

Yes.

It's not so much going to
be, here's your new dad.

Ali: No, it's not that he was
ever introduced as a new dad.

yeah.

Yeah, but yeah, but like.

There's no figurative.

No, yeah, no, there's
not going to be anybody.

And like, yeah, like I suppose
it's, it is less of a factor and

it will be less of a factor the
older he gets in that, you know.

You know, whether I then potentially move
in with somebody else and move house,

like at the moment I'm committed to
being where I am for him until he's 18,

but like those things and options will
certainly change in the next few years.

I know that's, that's...

So you're quite

Joe: free and liberated and you have
a lot of options in front of you, Ali.

Yeah.

But do you feel that?

Or do you feel like it's all a bit, uh,

Sam: flat?

Some of it's theoretical, I guess.

Ali: Yeah.

Some of it.

Look, I mean, honestly, like.

There's equal parts of me that really
enjoy going out and meeting new

people, I really enjoy that, having
a really fun time, it's all, it's,

dating can be really, really fun.

It also comes along with a lot of
crap, like, you know, and dealing

with ghosting and people treating you
badly, or like, you know, just not

respectfully, or just, oh yeah, you
don't, for whatever reason, you know,

something bad happens and it's not great,
you have to take that risk when putting

yourself out there, but, so yeah, but
on the whole, I'm very much willing to.

Not, well, it's not a compromise, but
it's very much willing to, you know,

accept that that's the reality of,
of dating these days, but I'm also

very comfortable in my own space.

I'm just as happy to be at home
with a cat on a Saturday night.

Yeah, so you've

Joe: got the one cat, so you've, you've,
you've got one foot in the cat lady camp.

Yeah.

But see, I can see you being genuinely
happy with cat lady, but me as

curmudgeonly old sports watching
guy, I'm not cool with that really.

Like, I joke about it, but.

Uh, that's not a happy future
for me, you know, I don't have

the equivalent of the cat lady.

Whereas I genuinely sense with
you that you'll give it a few

more years and if men are still
disappointing you, fuck it, cat lady.

Sam: Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

It's interesting.

I think I just, you've Joe, you've
helped me put my finger on an unconscious

thought that has been lingering here
this whole time and I finally got it.

Oh, it was bugging me.

We need to state the unstated thing
here, which is if Ali decides.

And her girlfriends decide as a
cohort, they're out and you can see

the reasons why she's laid them out.

There's other ones you haven't
even gotten into, right?

Plenty, any, no shortage
of reasons, right?

Over on your ledger, Joe, you and other
men, you and yeah, the pool gets smaller.

You and other men in our cohort, cause
you know, we're pretty much the same age.

I could, I can certainly relate
as much as I'll hang shit on

you for the test cricket thing.

Like I've got other things, other
things like that that I could be

aiming or totally there's other things
I could indulge in, you know, given

the, given the circumstances, right.

And I could see myself, I was thinking
about this earlier, like, okay, I'm

going to try and put my feet in the
shoes of someone who's like thinking

about repartnering or not, or even
just having like a steady or whatever.

What would that be like?

And what would I not?

What would I, what would my demands
be for myself going into it?

What am I, am I just going to see
how this goes or am I going to be

clear and upfront about things?

And I was like, yeah, I think with all the
therapy I've done, I'm going to find it

quite a lot easier than most people just
to say, here's what I know about myself,

and like, it might be a bit ASD for some
people probably wouldn't like it, but.

At the end of the day though, and that's
all very well, I can do all that honesty.

I'll be pretty good at keeping the
communication door open and saying,

here, here's some unstated assumptions
that might've been operating here.

And do we need these or not?

And should we throw these out?

So I think I'll be good at all that
kind of work, but it comes down to this.

We, we seem to know at the moment
that men don't do as well, like

heading into the older years and
that's what it all comes down to.

So I think.

Yeah.

Out of these two groups, men and women,
uh, assuming that we're gonna go with

that binary for the time being we always

Joe: do on this show,
Sam and I appreciate it.

Yeah, that's right.

, but, but men, binary thinker.

Sam: That's binary thinkers,

but men and women, 40 plus.

contemplating this whether to
partner or even have a steady Yeah.

Live in some of the
time or all of the time.

Men I think will be more.

What I'm trying to get at, Joe, I
think the men are going to have to

do more compromising than the women.

I think that's what it comes down to.

And I think it's more important for men's
long term health physically and mentally.

And I think if the men are not
willing to make the necessary

compromises, well, good luck.

Yeah.

That's what I'm going to say.

Joe: I, yeah, physically, I only have
to look at my diet as a single guy

and know that I would be healthier if
someone was watching what I lived on.

And not even saying anything,
just observing in that way

women are so good at doing.

Sam: Silent accountability.

Oh, where's

Ali: the vegetable?

Joe: Just the raised eyebrow.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, you're having that again.

Yeah, cool.

And uh, yeah, I know.

Sam: Anyway.

Joe: No, exactly right, Joe.

Yeah, I think you're right.

I met someone recently when I
was traveling in her late fifties

and she's, she's dating and
she's like so many women I find.

Like, she's been successful in her career
and whatever, she's traveling the world

and she's dating, but her life is like,
I've got tango class and then I've got

book club and then I've got gardening
group and that's somewhere she's been

for like three months, she hasn't even
lived there, she's got all this stuff

lined up every night of the week.

And that's classic for women,
I think, single women, right?

Whereas a bloke will be
like, yeah, there's some...

There's some footy on at four o'clock
and it's like, between now and

four o'clock, what are you doing?

I don't know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's right.

And I'm that guy, kind of.

Sam: And there might be some
other men there and I might

socialize with them a little bit.

Yeah.

And

Joe: then the men who are successful
are the men who go to the tango

classes and the book groups.

Big time.

Right.

And that's, I'm staring
down the barrel of Anita.

Talk about low hanging fruit, Ali.

But it's like, I need to
either lock someone down.

Yeah, who likes test cricket or I
need to, I'm going to have to push

myself out there to do the line
dancing, which I don't want to do.

Right.

So I'd rather lock someone down.

We'll

Sam: look at it this way.

The test cricket thing is, I'm going to
say it makes it a slightly more difficult

sell, but I'm a confident salesperson.

So I'm going to take this case on and
I'm going to put a positive spin on it.

What I'm going to say is Joe, you
know, values his quiet leisure time

and is very understanding All of
your needs in that respect, right?

And so you're going to, you know,
if you partner up with Joe, you're

going to have, you're going to
have time for your tango class.

You're going to, well, no, that too,
but you're going to have the option to

just be unavailable for seven hours.

Like often.

And that's what he will be
completely understanding.

Joe: And that's what,
and what Allie read out.

Yeah, that's what we're talking about.

You have separate holidays.

You have, and it's like,
that's the same thing.

It's like, well, you know, on
Saturday I'm gonna be doing that.

So you go and do your thing, your
fucking pottery class or whatever.

Yeah.

Uh, or I don't drink.

You go on that winery tour.

Yeah.

I'll be just right here.

Yeah.

And then on Sunday I'll come and pick
you up when you've got a hangover.

Yeah.

Blah, blah, blah.

So there's

Sam: ways, because the last thing
you would want is like a girlfriend

that is like, Oh, I've made all
these plans for the weekend.

Ali: Yeah.

And you're like, Oh, there's the cricket.

And you're like, what am I going to do?

Joe: Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But then I just break up with them.

Sam: Well, yeah.

No, but, but here's what
you do instead, right?

Yeah.

Joe: Right.

Yeah.

Okay.

I'm listening.

Sam: Okay.

Bill Burr said it best.

Hey, you know, Hey boys, how often
have you thought to yourself when

she says, let's go to brunch.

And like, you're screaming inside.

No, no, no.

Let's go to brunch and then let's go
to bed, bath and beyond or whatever.

Right.

And then you are screaming
to yourself inside.

No, no, no.

But you don't do that because
you're afraid of dying alone.

So you go to Bed, Bath Beyond
and you just silently hate her.

And then, Bill's like,
don't do that to yourself.

Just say, like when you're doing
a customer service call and the

person is obstinately not being
helpful, you don't get angry at them.

You just say, this is unacceptable to me.

You say it calmly.

You say it firmly.

And you say, would you like to go
to brunch and then Bed, Bath Beyond?

This is unacceptable to me.

Absolutely not.

And nothing personal.

I just don't want to do that.

And I hope you'll understand, but

Ali: that similarly, like I found
myself doing those sorts of things

and like, yeah, like I activities
that I historically would have been

like, yeah, I'll go along with that.

No, I don't want to do that anymore.

No, I'm not going to spend
my weekends doing that.

I'm going to do the things I want to do.

Sam: And women will say this,
that they, you know, that they've

really compromised for others.

They've done things they didn't want
to do, that we've been socialized

to be agreeable, et cetera.

Yeah.

I think a lot of men are just not
willing to admit the amount of stuff

they do they don't actually want to
do and I think it's just all parties

have to be more honest about this.

I think, so some men are clever enough
to go, I need to be agreeable even if

I wasn't as socialized as strongly, but
then you might develop some resentment.

So what you do instead is you just say,
eh, I kind of don't feel like doing that.

or I did that last weekend.

I'm good.

I think I'd like to do this instead.

I

Joe: do that without the
diplomacy and that's the problem.

I mean, I feel like
you've got a role model.

I don't know how personal you want to get,
but you have a role model in your mum who

is quite independent in a relationship.

Yeah.

I mean, story you told me was that.

There was a house booked and she's
like, I'm not going to that because

I don't want to be on the same
roof as the whole and do something

else and she goes overseas, right?

So you've actually...

She's only

Ali: started doing that because she, this
is a woman who's compromised her whole

life and compromised and sacrificed a lot.

Finally got to a point where the
kids were old enough and were off

the, you know, and that she didn't
have that responsibility anymore.

So she finally had the time and
the means to be able to do the

things she wanted when she did.

And she absolutely took that opportunity.

And I mean, when I was younger, I was
like, Oh my God, like part of me thought,

Oh my God, this is really selfish.

So this, but now I'm like, no, she
is my biggest hero in that regard.

Like, I think that's
amazing that she does that.

And I, I would want that for myself.

I think if I had the time and the
money and the resources to be able

to go off and go, you know what?

I don't want to go on a family
holiday, you know, with everybody for,

If I had the time and money and resources,
um, and you know, yeah, the option of

like, yeah, you can go on this family
holiday, you know, which is her version

of personal hell like to be with the
family for 10 days and, and rather

instead go overseas, I'd rather do it.

Yeah.

I would have, I would hope that I had
was brave enough to do the same thing.

Joe: I think we should leave it there.

I think that's great that you
have that Ali and uh, yeah, I

mean, yeah, it's an ongoing.

It's interesting to me to see
how clearly you guys can see

how fucked I am in this area.

Sam: I think you've, I think you've
done a lot of work and I think

you're willing to do more of it.

Like, you just never underestimate
that nearly everything I've done wrong

in a relationship has come down to
a, like a fear of getting it wrong

and being instantly rejected forever.

And that might sound odd coming from
a bloke, like, I think we're used to

hearing women say things like that,

Joe: but it's But now you've worked
out a system which is basically

Be consistent and can perform
consistently and you have marital bliss.

Sam: Well, and yeah, but I'm
like 60% of the way there in

terms of consistency, right?

Ali: And nobody's going to be
100% consistent all the time.

Sam: That's right.

Ali: And if you've got ADHD,
it's really not going to happen.

Joe: It's an amazing story, Sam,
because essentially, I feel like in

this situation, you've essentially
taken a round peg, jammed it in a

square hole, and it's kind of working.

Well, yeah.

You in captivity.

Yeah, it seems strange
to me from the outside.

Of course.

Actually, it's very strange.

You seem to be fairly content in it.

So it's good.

Yeah, absolutely.

And,

Sam: but I will say this, like, if
anyone thinks, Oh God, all right, so

if I want like an orderly life with
a bit of meaning in it, like I just

have to completely surrender myself
and just, and everything's regimented.

No, not necessarily because you've got to
keep in mind that I was actually someone

who was craving That order and like was
looking to a female partner for most of

my life to help provide that and then
With your help and you know, my therapist

and lots of other people realizing that
I was capable of bringing that order But

also that I I didn't just want The order I
wanted to bring it myself and I wanted to

feel the power and feel the responsibility
and own it and like that and and then

so that was a way of realizing that
Um, the things that I want out of this

relationship, well, I should probably be
doing my best to provide those for myself.

And then let's see what else the
relationship can do if the, those

burdens are not placed on it.

Right.

So I think back on all the wonderful
women that I had the good fortune of

spending time with like, and the amount
of patience and tolerance they had,

because I guess of other things, I must've
been bringing something good, you know,

maybe more than one thing, but like.

Imagine how much better it could have
been, like, knowing what I know now.

Ali: Oh yeah, I feel very
similar in that sense.

Like, if I hadn't known this back then,
but it's just not the way it works.

And there were a lot of things
that I thought were like, Oh, how

dare you bust my balls about the
amount of video games I'm playing.

And like now, I'm like, yeah.

That is something I should be willing
to compromise on and I am in fact,

and look, I've done it already.

And like, cause I think we have
to be very serious with ourselves,

Joe, about what we sorting out,
what we really want and what's just

perversion and neurosis, you know.

Joe: I'm a basket case, but hey, I'm
working on a lot of stuff, but the one

thing I'll say and I'll end on this is
the one thing I can take out of that

traumatic relationship that God knows
has been an obsession on this podcast.

Sam: Yeah.

That was really positive.

This pod is owed to that
person, actually, in a way.

Joe: Totally, as is a lot
of things in my life at the

moment, which is fucking weird.

Thank you, Weird Lady from Byron.

the one thing I'd say that I want to
do again, that worked incredibly well

and had zero negative side effects, was
learning to cook something so that I could

cook that person a really nice dinner.

And they would watch me get stressed.

Finding the ingredients, get stressed
trying to cook it, and it would come

out 90% okay, and the like, happiness
that brought that other person, because

they could see, and I think women...

Let's not generalise, but women just want
to see you make a bit of fucking effort.

Ali: Yeah, well that's the thing, I
don't care if I'm the better cook and

you're not a great cook, but just,
even if someone made me a toasty,

that would that for dinner because I
didn't have to think about or cook it.

It does not bother me.

And I started to do some of that, and...

That was really positive.

So I'm going to leave on that.

Sam: A high quality toasty,
it's not that difficult.

Okay, so vegans, block your ears.

Throw a bit of butter in the pan, add
a little bit of vegetable oil to like,

stop it from, so you can get it to a
high temperature without it burning.

Ali: Oh, see I put mayo on the outside.

Sam: Well, yeah, that works very well too.

That works very well too.

Joe: You've got to have a sandwich press.

I'm cutting this by the way.

Sam: Sandwich press bar humbug.

Throw it in the pan.

Yeah, with kimchi in it.

Kimchi and cheese toasty Alright, we'll
throw the recipe up on the show notes.

Actually, alright, I'll
add it to the show notes.

See ya!