The Ten Thousand Things

Hello, and welcome back
to The 10,000 Things.

My name is Sam Ellis.

I'm Joe Loh.

And today, responding to a request from
a listener, which is something we're,

we're definitely interested in doing.

Always.

Always.

Uh, this show is for the people
that listen to it and care about.

Yes, the handful of people.

Well- I mean, the millions of people.

I

That, that's right.

Let's just stroke our egos for one
minute, and I'll, I'll say over the--

This is worth talking about very quickly.

Over the years, we've averaged
between, uh, you know, 50 and, like,

300 for a show, and there might be
some that are, like, getting into the

hundreds and hundreds at this point.

And overall, we've had, you know,
we're maybe into the 10 or 20,000

overall listens at this point, right?

Which is a drop in the ocean.

On the other hand, it's a wonderful
thing to reflect on if some of

those peak episodes, if you had
all those people in a room, it--

that's the Northgate Social Club.

And if a h- if, if, if 10 people give
a, give a, any kind of, any level

of toss about a thing that anybody
does, that's a rare and beautiful

thing in this world, it feels like.

And I'll take- Yeah, okay … 10
people who give a proper shit

over 10,000 casual listeners.

Yeah.

I've gone through periods of caring
whether anyone's listening, and then I-

I've always told you not to worry about
it … a couple of years ago decided that

I like the process, I like talking to
you, and I like editing it, and, um- Yeah

I like putting it up and, you know.

So I, yeah, for the last couple of
years, I've just done the process.

Do- Does that make sense?

Do the process, man.

Yeah.

Hang on.

Don't you remember me saying
something like that to you in

the early days when you'd get a
bit, like, in your head about it?

"Was that a good show or not, Sam?

I can't even tell."

And I'm like, "Well, did
you have fun doing it?"

Yeah.

There you, there you go.

I think after most shows I say, "I
can't tell if that was a good episode."

And, yeah.

And then once I edit it, I'm like,
"That was a great ep-" I'm texting you

saying, "That was a great episode."

Dude, it's one of the great comforting
rituals of my existence, which is

why we-- part of the reason we need
to do this, we get this on a f-

you know, regular footing again.

Like, you know, we try to get it to
once a month, and then we can think to

once a f- you know, once a fortnight.

But, like, the same
comforting routine every time.

"Well, I don't know if that
one was any good or not, Sam."

"I mean, who can tell?"

Yeah.

And then a little bit later,
"Oh, I'm starting the…

I might start the edit tomorrow.

No, I'm starting the edit tonight."

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

"Oh, it's good."

Yeah.

I always love the moment when
I realize that it's good.

It's a beautiful thing.

Well, we better get into it, otherwise-
Yeah, yeah … this won't be good.

This will just be us talking sh-
Uh … inside baseball about- I

mean- … shit that no one cares about

I'm gonna guess people
like it, but, you know.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

So here's the text from listener who
asked not to be named: "For you and

Sam, what about-" What we have learned,
what we have learned is important

in co-parenting post-separation.

Heading you back to the
really relatable stuff.

Hmm.

Well, I didn't realize…

I thought it was gonna be about
raising kids, not co-parenting.

Well, I think we can talk more broadly.

Yeah.

But I think the co-parenting
part is important as well.

You'll have less to say about it than me.

Yeah.

I've been, I've been
doing it for 10 years.

So just to lay the facts out for the
listeners, I've got a 10 and a…

Uh, sorry, I've got a 13-year-old and
a 17-year-old- Yeah … daughters.

Yeah.

Um, and I've been a single
dad for over 10 years.

And you have?

How-- Could you try and put a
more precise amount of time on it?

How long has it been?

10 or 11 years, I believe.

Okay, 10 or 11.

Yeah.

Okay.

Right.

And me, I'm very early days, so for me
it was, I got my own address last July.

Yeah.

So if you count that, it's like- Nearly
a year … it's 10, it's 10 months

at this- Yeah … point, you know.

Maybe we're getting up on 12 nearly.

So in terms of- Yeah … co-parenting-
Yeah … um, my experience has been

to have a very rigid system where
the dates are fixed and there's a

pattern, and I'm a 31% dad- Right

according to the government.

Okay.

so for the last decade I've
had 31% care of my daughters.

and I've had fixed days that I see
them, and I don't try and swap days.

I don't, you know, get out of things to
go to a music festival or to go away or-

Hmm … I just show up on time when I'm
required and look after my kids, you know.

Um, and I think that's been a
really solid way to approach it.

I think it's been really
solid for the kids.

Um, and I've tried to be very reliable and
dependable- Hmm … um, for those kids.

And it's meant there's not much friction
between me and my ex, uh, Lucia.

Yeah.

I mean- Because everything's
locked in and set in stone.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, it does.

There's always gonna be something
to grumble about, I guess, if you go

looking for it, but, uh, neither of
you are going looking for it, I guess.

No.

Right.

And we communicate mostly
via text and email.

Yeah.

Almost never have a phone call.

Right.

Um, almost never talk in person- Uh-huh

but we're perfectly civil if
we- Right … ever do talk in

person at a handover or whatever.

But the best thing that happened
was the handover started

happening from the school.

Um, and now they're older even, you know-
Oh, that's right … don't even need that.

Because of course, I just realized,
we need to clarify this, 10

or 11 years ago, one of them's
seven and one of them's three.

Yeah.

That was, yeah.

And how old are yours?

Yeah.

Well, w- uh, right now 11 and eight.

Yeah.

And when I first moved out,
uh, yeah, 10 and, and seven.

So it's- So you could do all pickups
and drop-offs from school, but you

guys have a much more amorphous
system at the moment, don't you?

Yes.

Yes.

You guys have a lot more crossover
and- A lot more crossover

a lot more casual kind of- Yes … seeing
each other outside of set times and- Yes.

Bit more c- Yeah.

Well- Yeah, I mean, we're definitely, the
amount of crossover is, is, is going down,

and I think both of us are interested
in having a, a bit more distance there.

But we were sort of, we were trying
to, rightly or wrongly, we were trying

to provide like a level of kind of
a slight degree of continuity, like

over that first six months or so.

What do you mean by continuity?

That the, that the, that the kids would
see the two of us in the same place often.

Do you know what I mean?

Oh.

That it wouldn't be just
like- And why is that good?

I don't know.

I think, I think, I think it's--
Well, I mean, it, it is or it isn't.

Right, yeah.

But it's some- it's something,
it's something we wanted.

Yeah.

I mean, I- Yeah … I, you know, I've,
I have to deeply realize that the way

I'm doing it is not the only way and
it's not necessarily the right way.

Well, no, but you've certainly
advised me to be mu- much more

cut and dried with things.

Well, I don't want a
relationship with my ex.

I, I'm forced to have a relationship with
her because we have two kids together.

I, I think she's a wonderful person.

I really do think she's a wonderful
person, and I'm so glad I had kids with

her out of everyone I've ever dated.

Yeah.

But I also- Yeah … there's a lot of, you
know, there's a lot of bad blood there.

It was the right choice of mum.

It was the right choice of mum, but
the, the breakup was also the right

choice, and once the breakup happens,
then I want separation and distance.

I don't want that- Oh, totally.

Yeah.

I don't wanna see any other ex
and I don't wanna see that ex.

Does that make sense?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I…

That's right.

And I'm see- see-- Well, this, I
think the question I have for you

is like how much, how much guilt
in general did you experience?

And, and then I wanna like talk
about specific kinds of guilt

because, right, there's, uh…

What I've realized, what I've experienced
is guilt towards my children obviously.

I was really thick with
that for a number of years-

Yeah … leading to the d- you know.

I, I knew the, I knew the decision
we were going to make, right?

That these two adults were
gonna make the decision.

It was just a question of how
soon and what manner, right?

And then I think, uh, I, I think I did a,
a reasonable job under the circumstances,

and so did the other person.

Now- So guilt towards the kids
for a number of years, and, and

that's not particularly helpful.

But also guilt towards this person.

I've discovered a bit of both,
and it's, it's sort of…

I've said this before, like every
time you make an improvement in

your life, right, you do a thing
that needed to be done, right?

It's nearly always
gonna be overdue, right?

Mm.

By definition.

You know, humans tend not to kind
of make changes until they're

forced to some degree, right?

But then if you do anything to improve
your life and your situation and,

and, and then as a result improve how
you relate to the world and to others

Well, this is my experience.

I've always-- That has always b-
you know, been followed by a great

sense of relief and pride and
like, "Yay, I'm so glad I did that.

Wish I'd done it sooner."

Oh, wish I'd done it sooner.

Oh, man.

Things could've been better for longer.

Yeah.

Why didn't I…

Oh, gee, that person would've been- That's
how I feel about- Man, I could've done

them a favor and left sooner, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh.

That's how I feel at the moment
about finding out I've got OCD.

Yeah.

That I've realized my whole life has been,
like, affected by this illness, and I

never knew till this year that I had it.

Yeah.

And it's like- Yeah … it, it, it ref-
you know, reflecting back on, um, my

parenting as well, it's like- Mm-hmm.

You know?

I got a- Yeah … I got a card for
my birthday this year from my oldest

daughter, Scarlet, and she said, "Dad,
you worry about us too much, but we

know that we're very loved by you."

Oh.

And I've done so much fucking worrying-
Yeah … but it's not just worrying in

the normal- Yeah, yeah … healthy sense.

It's also- No, no, no,
neurotic worry as well.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

So, Yeah … you know, I've got a
lot of regret around that because now

I've got techniques- Mm … in place
for the first time ever to deal with

my OCD, and they're really hard and
really painful, but they're effective.

Exposure and response prevention.

So I'm doing that, and I'm doing
it with a lot of discipline,

and it's working, you know?

Mm.

Um, so, so then you look back
and you kinda go- "Oh, fuck"

"Oh, fuck" "I could've been
doing such a better job before."

And you s- Yeah … remember other crazy
shit that you did years ago- Oh … that

was all because- Yeah … you'd got
into an obsessive worry loop, you know?

Yep, yep.

And started acting it
out of, on it, you know?

Like- 100%.

Um, but anyway, that's my work
in progress at the moment.

But, um- So you're, so you're
saying you agree with me in that

when you've found that, "Oh, oh my
God-" Things are improving "… I've

got a form of dysfunction that
is responsive to treatment."

Yes.

"And now that this is happening, I do
feel a level of guilt and regret-" Yes

about not-" I could have
known this 20 years ago.

Oh, yeah.

But I wa- but that's
not how life works, Sam.

No, I guess not.

You fi- you, you find out things
when you find them out, and you

act on them when you act on them.

You either find out things
too late or just in time.

And…

Oh, no, but that's the other thing, man.

I wish I could say with…

Oh, yeah.

I have to be honest.

That's what we do on this show
. Okay, this is a hard thing to say.

I wish I'd been more…

If I'd l- I wish I'd listened more
to people that were trying to tell

me, "You need to do this," right?

I could count one You,
definitely you Yeah.

Need to do what?

Pull the pin on this Oh, the breakup?

Yeah.

Ah, yeah.

Yeah.

You need to, you need to move out.

You need to start your own life.

You need to- Yeah … begin again, man.

And- It seemed like it had
become an unhappy home Yeah.

And- You know, without-
Yeah … putting blame on anyone.

No.

No, no.

It just- That's the last thing I
wanna do … it just seemed like the

vibes were bad, and reminded me of
the vibes in my house for the last

couple of years when it was bad.

Yeah, yeah.

You got it.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

You understood.

And so yeah, I'm not trashing anyone.

No.

I only love and respect, but it's
like, it is pretty clear looking

back, it's like, oh man, really could
have like called that a bit sooner.

Yeah.

And, and like, and but it wasn't like…

I mean, people were telling me.

You told me, no uncertain terms.

My friend John, shout out, I'm, I
might actually send him this ep.

Um, he was trying to tell me, and, and
then one day he was very blunt about it.

Yeah.

He was very blunt about it.

And, uh, my psychologist, Adam.

Yeah.

Uh, uh, the other person.

Yeah.

And the second I made the decision
for myself- Yeah … and started

taking steps, I felt, I already,
I felt better, like immediately.

And, you know, and I remember I've,
uh, I've already told you this, the,

the, the first night I spent here
alone, I didn't have the power on even.

It's a funny story.

I actually had connected
it the day before.

It turns out it had been turned on, you
know, a day after I made the phone call.

Yeah.

But I hadn't found the switchboard.

Ah, right.

Took me another week to
find the switchboard.

Hilarious.

But I'll tell you, I was happy
as Larry- Yeah … camping out

here, like just with phone light.

Maybe I had a candle or two Like listen
to a pod and go to bed, eat lentils.

God, I was…

It was so- Yeah … peaceful.

It was the best.

I felt so good.

It was 100% right, and I knew it.

Yeah.

And I wake up early feeling amazing.

And, but that initial euphoria
and like definitely the right

decision, like the world is new.

There's a lot to…

The, the, there's hope, right?

But slowly, that has given way to
the realization that like, "Oh,

a lot of mistakes were made."

A lot.

There's a lot to regret, and it feels
like there's a lot to make up for.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that's where I'm- Now, our listener
wanted to focus on c- co-parenting.

Yeah.

How are you finding, like
how are you ma- So you've…

I've sort of explained how we do it.

Concrete system.

Mm.

Text and email only communication,
unless there's something that

really needs to be talked about.

Yeah.

Um, which is maybe once a year.

Yeah.

And then, uh, it's taken years
to build this system, right?

Mm.

Um, but we've got it in place,
and it works really well.

Yeah.

And then me being very punctual and-
Mm … very reliable, like that's the,

the bit that I really- Oh, no, this
doesn't surprise me about you at all.

And, and so you reckon you've not
swapped out a single scheduled

day that whole time pretty much?

Pretty much, yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

I haven't- Mm … tried to bail out
because I got a better offer, you know?

Well, I'll…

Yeah.

Well, I've, I've done some swaps,
and so has the other person.

And- But you don't have
a fixed system, right?

No, no.

And look, uh, it, that's basically,
it's basically on the two adults

here to straighten things out a
bit more, and I don't think…

I think we've been m- you know, doing
a reasonable job of kind of moving

it uh, there's a date now, you know?

So like it's, I mean, pretty much
coming up on two years of like legal

separation and, uh- It's time to kind
of s- like, yeah, just probably just get

things a little bit more predictable.

Um, but honestly, there has been a
need, there has been a need for some

flexibility and I'm, um, and I will admit
that that's not been the easiest thing.

But I'll- Well, it just involves so much
more interaction with the other adult.

Yes.

Yes, that's right.

And yes- Like when you're picking kids
up from school on a Friday- It's easy

you don't even see the other-
That's right … person.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's right.

And then there's been times
where it has caused friction.

But as to the, the, the
co-parenting, what's interesting,

like are you co-parenting when
you're in different houses?

I suppose you are.

And I hadn't really thought about that.

Yeah.

I mean- Like as- … there's not a
lot of crossover between us about how

we approach- How you're doing things.

Yeah … you know.

Yeah.

But, but she's the major player.

She's the 70% parent, you know?

Yeah.

Well, I'm fa- Okay.

Well, I didn't, I didn't say this- So
it's like she, she sets policy, put

it that way, and I pretty much- Yeah

support the policy, you know?

Yeah.

Like she- Yeah.

Yeah … she's more on their case, and
I'm more laid back and chill, you know?

Right.

Sure.

And so this…

Well, and look, let's face it, that
probably reflects the situation in

a lot of heterosexual- Mm … you
know, even under the same roof.

You know?

Yeah.

She's carrying almost all
the mental load- Yeah.

Okay … of the schooling and- Well,
it's a good thing to admit … all that.

Oh, I admit it.

Yeah.

You know, I'll admit that.

You're on time, and you're a
realist, and you don't deny things.

All right.

That's good.

Yeah.

But, you know, that's a good start.

Yeah.

But, you know, I would say,
hmm, no, not always on time.

Yeah, but you don't- Don't always admit
things, and I'm not always a realist.

So- But you'd be much more involved
in their schooling and stuff

like that, and- Big way more.

Yeah.

Yeah … yeah, taking a big interest
and- Yeah … I just expect them

to go to school and make an effort,
and other than that, I don't need

to know the details, you know?

Well, I mean, no, but you must have like
general conversations about that stuff.

Like- What do you mean?

I mean, you know, you che- you
don't just do like, "How's school?

Good, Dad.

Okay."

Pretty much we just do that.

Oh, come on.

You gotta probe a bit.

I try, but then I, I'm more
interested in how they're going-

They stone wall you anyway.

I know.

I know.

Yeah.

How they're going socially,
I'm really interested in.

And like- That's probably more
important, honestly … it feels like

it's more important that they've got
friends- Oh, no … and they're getting

along with people, and their mental
health's good, and- I, I, I agree.

I agree.

And, and this is the thing, like I
would say probably you and your ex

would be on the same page more or
less about a lot of that, I would say.

Um- Yeah … and as you…

You, and you're hap- Look, if you're
happy for her to set policy, like…

Now is that, is that…

I, I mean, I have a…

Okay.

Well, here's a more
probing question, right?

Is that just because it suits
you or- It's because I'm lazy.

Yeah, of c-- Right.

Good.

I thought you might have just done
that- And I'm, but I'm also not

controlling and I don't know what's
the best for two young girls.

Hmm.

Maybe not.

Uh, whereas I think that my ex really
has a lot of expertise about all of that.

Sure.

Okay.

All right.

She has strong opinion, strong
opinions, good expertise.

Yeah.

She can get my, my opinion if she
really wants it, but mostly she can

just set policy and I just implement it.

Hmm.

You know?

I think that is what my co-parent
or, uh, yeah, would like.

Uh, but you wanna- Oh, I, I- … get
involved … I feel like not only should

I, but that I must, not just that I can
be involved in policy, that I, uh, and

that, uh, uh, I'll just get involved
in policy just for the hell of it.

Um, no, unfortunately, for better or
worse, I think that I have certain

perspectives that need to be in the mix.

Yeah.

Because the pers- Yeah.

See, I just don't think that about myself.

Hmm.

Well, I think pa- probably that might
be, can you think of a single policy

set by your co-parent that you would
disagree with strongly or a little?

No, n- never.

Okay.

Well, they, that makes things easier.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And look, I'm not s- She's a very
level-headed, very sensible person.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, sure, and, and I would say the
majority of what, what, you know, their

pa- their other parent thinks is right.

Yeah.

And- And I think that at their house-
I've been wrong about a lot of things,

but, you know, but, but- For, there
might be differences in implementation,

as in at their house there might be
attempts to restrict screens and stuff.

Uh-huh.

And you're a bit more
laissez-faire with that?

Well, I can't do the hypocrisy, so
I'm so addicted to my phone that

I'm not willing to- … ban- … try
and control their screen usage.

And now they're teenagers,
it seems pointless.

Hmm.

Um, so for example, that's
where I'm implementing it maybe

differently where she's actually
putting in controls, you know?

Hmm.

So again, I get to be the fun parent,
which would really piss her off.

Okay.

And I'm the laid back and I'm the
chilled one and- Yeah, yeah, yeah,

yeah, yeah, yeah … you know?

So- Well- … there's definitely an
element of that, but oh well, you

win some, you lose some, you know?

Are they t- uh, sure, I guess.

I feel like, I guess after 10 or 11 years,
it's like you do find it easier to be

a bit more it is what it is about it.

Yeah.

I, I'm very much not there yet-
Yeah … I would say, and like, that

I'm not, um I'm not against a lot of
what you say in just broad strokes.

Like, I think something pretty,
like with a clear rhythm to it and

don't make variations, you know,
unless you really, really need to.

Yeah.

And everyone kind of knows
what to expect a bit more.

And all of that does sound good,
but like, I, I do wanna be involved

in the policy stuff even, even and
especially where there's a- But so that

means- … where there's a difference
… that you're gonna have arguments.

Are they gonna be phone arguments?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Are they gonna be in-person arguments?

Are they- Or, or, or is it like h- I
think- Are they gonna be angry emails?

Well, well so far there's been ex- there's
been examples where it's like, "Hey,

I don't think we're on the same page
about this thing, and uh, I'm annoyed."

Yeah.

I've heard that.

And I would say there's a
level of fairness to all of

it, some of it more fair.

Um, but Tended to respond
fairly productively to that.

If sometimes a bit def- I'll get a bit
defensive, I'll be honest, and I'll

point out, "Hey, look, there are things
I'm doing that you may not be aware of."

Like there's, there's areas
where I'm putting in a lot of

effort, but it's very invisible.

Yeah.

Like conversations.

I do have a lot of con- we, we talk a
lot, and I'm not, I'm not saying that I

don't talk to Mum like a lot, but, I'll
lie down on the bed and just like hang

out and, you know, wait till they've…

wait till they're ready to spill things.

Yeah.

And they're not always, and
like, and I, they don't always

come through with stuff, right?

But eventually, if you're patient
enough, you'll catch a fish.

And of course, uh, I t- they f- I think
I might be the parent they're going to

with a lot of their pop culture stuff.

Yeah.

Like, or just their culture stuff.

They really wanna share
a lot of that with me.

Yeah.

And I get info dumped by my
spectrum-y kids a fair bit.

Yeah.

And I think that what I'm trying to say
is there's a bit of invisible emotional

and like cognitive labor I do with
these kids that is maybe not obvious.

Yeah.

And I think that that was throughout
the- But who do you want to see it?

No.

Uh, the only- Why does
it have to be visible?

No, the only time I care about the
visibility of it is when my contribution

is I feel it's being undervalued.

Ah, right.

Or that- See, this is the trap.

Yes.

You still care what she thinks of you.

Yeah.

I don't care what my ex thinks of me, Sam.

I know, I know.

Right, but that's the thing, right?

Like- Like I can't control that.

Like- But there are exes- As
they say- No, there are exes

whose good opinion you value.

Come on, man.

Uh, I, I don't think I have
the good- At least one.

We were just talking about one just
earlier I don't think I have the

good opinion of any exes, do I?

What about Marty?

I think she probably hates me because
I'm not a, um, anti-Israel enough.

No, but you guys…

No, but you guys caught up like in the
last couple of years, like in person.

Yeah, but then the, the subject of
the Middle East came up, and then

she stopped wanting to be my friend.

Well, she's getting on actual
boats, man, so like hardly- Oh

hardly anyone's- She was…

Yeah … at that level.

Yeah, yeah.

She's the real deal.

She's the real deal.

But my position of, uh, I don't really
want my head in the Middle East if I can

avoid it- Mm … is seen as, you know,
horrendous to someone who's so committed.

But you respect her position.

I admire her position.

There you go.

Yeah.

I- I just don't agree with it, but- I
think that would- … I admire it … mm

I admire, I admire the commitment of
Going to the West Bank and doing, you

know, getting arrested and all that
I- it takes enormous guts Yeah Like

even just to camp- She's, she's not
a keyboard warrior No, she sure isn't

No, Marty's always been very full
on person, and that's, that's cool.

It takes people like that to- But
I don't think I have her respect.

No, I don't.

I might-- She might have some
fondness, lingering fondness for

me as a bit of a loser who's not
doing much with his life, you know?

Like- All right … as a bit of a
neurotic- Yeah … scared loser-

Whoa … who would never go to
the Middle Eastern during a war.

But, you know- I mean, yeah,
that's weird that you don't

wanna go to a war zone, dude.

I think, you know- Well, I- I think you
should harden the fuck up, bro Yeah, yeah.

I'm much more at peace
with myself than I've…

One thing I learned in my 12-step
fellowship, see if you like this one, Sam.

Uh-huh What anyone else thinks
of me is none of my business.

Mm.

So that applies to everyone in the,
in the, in the meeting who I'm having

a 12-step meeting with Well, look,
you're not gonna be honest in there

if that's what you're thinking about
Yeah, but it applies to work situations.

It applies to what your, the
mother of your children thinks

of how you're parenting.

It's none of your business, Sam.

Ugh.

It's none of your business.

Just drop it.

Who cares?

Look, I think maybe the issue- You,
as long as you know you're being

a good dad Do you know what it is?

I, I'm at risk here of seeing,
seeming more selfless or virtuous

than I am- … where like that…

Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

I j- uh, um, I want my contribution
to be valued intrinsically

and, you know, blah, blah.

Like, or, or that, I care about the
other person's judgment or opinion or

input because I want to show the kids an
example of a person valuing that equally.

Yeah.

That is, that is actually an aspiration
I do have as well- Yeah … to not

just talk equality, but to walk it.

Yeah And to always speak about
the other person respectfully,

even when we disagree.

But especially when we disagree, that's
the time it's most important, right?

But the, the truth is, you know what?

F- yeah, you know what?

I'm still hanging on to some kind
of notion of interfering myself and

like being a, not, yeah, yeah, maybe
being a bit of a busybody and like,

"Yeah, yeah, I've got a right to an
opinion about what you're doing, which

means I have to allow you to have
a, an opinion about what I'm doing."

And then- Yeah, that's right.

See- Yeah … so I've dropped
that So you know what?

I'm actually, I'm actually
being selfish here.

I've dropped that.

Yeah.

I defer.

Yeah.

I think she's a better parent than me.

Yeah.

She's more f- she's more involved.

She does the harder things.

Doesn't that make you
wanna try harder though?

I just, I need to challenge you on that.

No, it makes me wanna keep chilling

But I, you know, I am
medicated for my bipolar, Sam.

Maybe I'm just medicated to a
point where I'm just a bit of a

zombie and I just kind of- Yeah,
yeah … just cruise through life.

I don't fucking know.

But you have said in therapy
you have be- you've little by

little become more engaged and
present in your parenting, right?

I think they have a stable, present dad-
Right … who worries too much about them.

Yes.

And that's gonna be the foundation of
their relationship with men for the

rest of their life, is gonna be they
had this stable, neurotic father, if

you can put those two words together.

Yeah.

Like stable as in I was
physically always there.

Yeah.

But neurotic as in I was insanely
worried about them a lot of the

time, especially the last three
years since they've had epilepsy.

Mm.

Yeah.

You know?

And that's a daily battle for
me, but- Yeah, you really are

a classic OCD, aren't you?

Always worrying about what Putin's gonna
do or- Yeah, it started out with…

No, it started out, I remember I, the,
the full mental breakdown I had- Yeah

… um, was about setting up a v- a van for
work and borrowing money and, I got so

convinced that this van wouldn't fit in
my driveway that I knocked down part of

a brick fence of a house that we owned.

And then I got the van back,
and it fit in there anyway.

I didn't need to knock
down the brick fence.

So I'm out there with a sledgehammer
'cause my OCD has convinced me that-

Oh my God … this v- I couldn't stop
thinking about how the van wouldn't

fit in the driveway to the point that
I'm actually knocking a wall down.

And yeah, I went through, I, like
I look at rare- That's amazing

less than 0.01%

chance of things happening,
like a nuclear war.

Yeah, yeah.

And then I obsess about it to
the point where I'm almost not

thinking about anything else.

Oh, yeah.

And I'm convinced it's about to happen.

Yeah.

And then- Yeah … and I didn't know
what to do about it, Sam- No … until

now I've learnt these techniques.

Mm, mm.

So the five years with the Lacanian
analyst, I took all my fears to her, but

she didn't say, "Hey bro, you've got OCD.

You need to do exposure re- response
prevention, and it will go away."

Mm.

She just let me just pour
these fears onto her.

Yeah.

'Cause she's, you know, Lacanian,
they're trying to sit back and let you

figure everything out for yourself.

I went to a very boring practical CBT
psychologist who said, "You've got OCD-"

Here's a, here's the- Tried and true
method … method, which is just labeling

the thought as a worry thought- Yeah
… and then just dropping it, not checking.

Mm-hmm.

Not reading The Economist to
see what Putin's up to now.

Definitely don't read The Economist.

We figured that one out a
few years ago, didn't we?

Yeah, I've had to- Yeah … I've had
to go through all these, you know, at

one point we talked about it on the
show, but- Yeah … and people laugh

about this one, but at one point it
was an asteroid hitting the Earth.

Oh, it is funny though.

I remember The Guardian-
It is objectively funny

and The Guardian put a headline online-
Yes … saying that planet-destroying

asteroid headed towards Earth.

You're like, "See?"

And then you click on the clickbait and
it says, "But it's gonna miss," you know?

And that, that was like, people to
this day still really rate The Guardian

even though- No, fuck The Guardian.

Yeah, like The Guardian's- Yeah … the
most horrible- It's trash … clickbait.

I, I hate it.

Just terrifying- Yeah … trash.

Like the- For every one reasonable
or worthwhile article in there,

there's just so much nonsense.

There's no way you would even be reading
The Guardian by now if The Guardian

was accurate, because we'd all be dead.

Well, the other issue with it is-
Like I'm serious … yeah, yeah.

No, no, even reading- We would've all
died from climate change already- Leaving

us- … if not, if not the asteroid.

How- Oh, I did climate change too.

Yes.

And you know- That was your big one … I
got over that one- Yeah, yeah … by

reading a bunch of different books on it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But that's in, in OCD theory, that's
called checking, and what I've gotta do

from now on, and it's this incredibly
hard discipline, is not check.

Don't check.

Yeah.

Wow.

Don't, don't become an
ex-subject matter expert, which

is probably what you would do.

Yeah.

But you do it without the fear system, so.

No, it's interesting.

No, no, no.

But you, but, but- A lot of what I
research is fear-based, man, don't worry.

But yeah.

No, but if you had a kid with epilepsy-
Yeah … you'd probably be like,

"Well, they're probably gonna be okay.

They'll just have to
take some meds and-" Mm.

"… you know, they'll…"

But you might read a lot about
it and come to the, the- Yeah

actual real conclusion-
Yeah … which is balance of

probabilities, they will be okay.

Yeah.

This is how it's generally
treated, childhood epilepsy.

Yes, yes.

And people grow out of it, and
people find the right meds.

Mm-hmm.

And people get on with
living a normal life.

Yeah.

That's the logical conclusion
of two kids with epilepsy.

Now, I don't, well, I, it's not healthy
for me to talk on the show about

where my mind's gone- Mm … about
it, but it's been horrible, you know?

Yeah.

But I've, I've worked out how to, um,
even in the last couple of weeks, how

to deal with this shit when it, when it
crops up, and I'm doing it, you know?

Oh, no, I, I can see you making progress.

I mean, I remember Oh, I mean,
I don't know, was it six months

ago now or something you were
t- you were talking about…

Oh, there was just some story you told
about an epilepsy situation and like,

and you know, how it felt different
the way you were dealing with it

than how you might have in the past.

Yeah.

And, and I d- I was just noting little
things like that where I felt like, oh,

I think progress is being made here.

Yeah.

Um, and th- I think it's really, this
labeling thing, this is important not

just for people with OCD, you know?

Well, 'cause then you don't
identify with your thoughts and-

Yes … think that they're you.

Yes.

And also you don't believe them.

Yeah.

It's very important not to gaslight
yourself into not trusting a single thing

that passes through your mind, but it's,
it, it's, it's like you really can't

let one thought bend you out of shape.

Yeah.

And- Like, yeah.

It has to take its place.

You are not your thoughts.

No.

Yeah.

No.

And most of the time, this is a good
one, this is one my sponsor said to me.

Yeah.

"Right now, everything's okay."

Yes.

Look out the window.

Yes.

What's happening?

Right now, everything's okay.

Yeah.

I, did I tell you this- Like next
Tuesday, who the fuck knows, right?

Yes.

But we don't get there until next Tuesday,
and that's the- See you next Tuesday.

It's relevant to what we're talking about.

No, no, no.

I was just gonna say, if it's not obvious
to everyone why this is really important

to the idea of parenting post-separation,
I think it's pretty clear that like- Well,

I'm talking about parenting as someone-
In general … with a mental illness.

Yes.

So I've- Yes

I've had this bipolar diagnosis-
Yeah … for over 20 years, but no

one ever picked up the OCD because no
one put much time into me, you know?

No.

They just said, "Take these
pills and go away, and don't

go to the psych ward anymore."

Yeah.

You know?

That's- Well, it's a good start.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that's what I've done for a long time.

Yeah.

And now more is being revealed.

Mm.

But it's, you know,
I'm trying to parent…

I've been trying to parent as
someone, uh, in addiction recovery

who also has a mental illness.

Yeah.

You know?

Now the nature of the mental illness
has kind of shifted my diagnosis

in the last couple m- months.

but the, the principle still remains
the same, which is that's why I defer

to Lucia, Sam, because she's not insane.

Okay.

All right.

Now- All right.

All right … your diagnosis is ADHD
and autism- Yes … or whatever.

Yes.

Yes.

Now that doesn't make you feel like
you can't trust your own judgment,

whereas I don't think I can trust
my own judgment on a lot of things.

Okay.

Right.

Well, so I, I would say
like- So I just defer to her.

I would have a, let's just say,
mild to moderate level of clinically

identifiable trauma-y stuff, right?

Just to be sort of
fairly generic about it.

Yeah.

Because my mum carried a lot of guilt
and ang- fear as a parent, and was

always telling me, not always, but often
told me stories about Uh, you know,

oh, there was a, in the family there
was this boy who choked on a peanut

and died and like in the thing and
this, and she always had these horrific

bloody stories she'd tell me, right?

And now, like as a kid, and like now I
realize, oh, she was struggl- she was

battling like an almighty amount of fear.

Yeah.

And, and I got to experience it.

I don't know if I, uh, especially
when the kids were younger, I don't

know if I went through the same level
of fear that she did, but like it

was at times it felt overwhelming.

Yeah.

And like I was not gonna make it.

Yeah.

Even though I'd stopped
worrying about my own future.

Yeah.

Like, you know how I, I told you
I thought I wasn't gonna- That

can happen once you have kids.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Just transfers to the- Well, by the
time I had kids, I was starting to

feel like I was gonna be all right.

Yeah.

I was like sort of 70% sure I
was gonna make it kind of thing.

And- Yeah … you know, which doesn't
sound like a lot, but it was more than

I had like even 12 months before that.

And I still had an awful lot of
stuff to like real low-hanging

fruit that needed to be dealt with.

Uh, and but then the f- yeah, I just
remember like, especially when they

were still babies or like toddlers,
just like, oh my God, the amount of fear

I was in just day to day was intense.

And I know it was the same for my,
uh, co-parent and, some of that I was

able to deal with and be the calm one,
and at times both of us were not the

calm one, and that's, that's rough.

And I was looking about, thinking
about my dad and like, so watching

them co-parent, right And I've
realized he's a worrier too.

And I think that there were things
that caused Mum worry, there were

things that caused him worry.

They weren't always the same things.

And so I think she felt sometimes
like he didn't worry enough.

Yeah.

And she had to worry more
for both of their sakes.

And I think he felt like he had to
worry less for both of their sakes.

Like, someone's gotta be chill here-
Yeah … even if I'm not feeling it.

Yeah.

And like, I've been listening
to this super helpful podcast,

this like loud American guy, but
really don't let that put you off.

To me it's a feature, not a bug.

Uh, it's like called The
Calm Parenting Podcast.

That's my phone.

Oh, that's your phone, bro.

It's like The Calm Parenting
Podcast or whatever.

I'll put…

I'll, I'll send you a link to it.

I, I highly recommend it for any parents
out there that are doing it tough

with like intrusive thoughts about
their kids or about their parenting.

Anyone who's like feels like they're
not doing a good job or that their

kids aren't doing a good job.

Anyone who's experiencing frustration
or like, "What do I do here?"

in their parenting, highly recommend it.

This guy just sets you straight.

Like, one of the things he keeps pointing
out is they're not rejecting you or your

authority, they're rejecting your anxiety.

They're rejecting your parental anxiety.

You're projecting constantly
into the future- Yeah … based

on what they're doing now, and
you cannot parent like that.

You have to parent in the present.

Yeah.

And I like…

Yeah.

Well, you know what Eckhart
tells us about worry.

Yeah.

Worry pretends to be useful,
but it serves no useful purpose.

Yeah, I'd probably- And my sponsor
says to me, "There's a difference

between worry and concern, Joe."

Hmm.

Healthy, rational concern.

Yeah.

Like, I can be concerned- Yeah … that
my kids have epilepsy, but to

constantly worry about it- It…

Yeah, it's- … while they're fine
and running around and not having

seizures and getting on with their
day- Correct … is insane and will

only break me eventually, you know?

I'm starting to think that
Seneca was a bit crazy, right?

You know that bit where he's like…

Is it-- Actually, I don't know if
this is exactly right, but this

is quoted in, in, um, uh, the
essays of Montesquieu or whatever.

Montaigne.

Montaigne.

Right.

You know, Montaigne's book, it's
a bit like Aurelius' book, you

know, sort of a collection of
different thoughts and stuff.

Yeah, yeah.

Anyway, so in there he tells this story
about what he learned from Seneca,

and Seneca's talking about, like,
having his child's birthday party or

something, and, like, increasing his
enjoyment and appreciation of this

happy occasion by imagining the worst.

Yes, I've heard the
Stoics talk about that.

And I'm like, I think Seneca
was dealing with a bit of trauma

and a bit of fear as a parent.

Remember that you are loving a mortal-
Yeah … is what the Stoics used to say.

Yes.

Remember that you're loving a mortal.

Horrible, like most-
Yeah … parents just think of it.

It's unthinkable.

They do.

Um, hey, um Friend of the show who
wanted to remain anonymous wanted us to

have a beginning, a middle, and an end.

But they're a bit of a controlling
person, and I said, "We just

talk, we just talk free form."

No wonder they didn't wanna
be named if they knew you were

gonna express an opinion about…

Um, well, you can say whatever you
want about an anonymous person,

but I don't think we're capable
of beginning, middle, and end.

But I think we should wrap it up.

I don't think we have a million
other things to say about it.

Oh, no, there's tons more I could say, but
like, I guess the summary is it's tough

being a parent even when you're trying to
do a good job, even when you think maybe

that you can get better at it over time.

I mean, you have to have that commitment.

Well, okay, that's been important for me.

I won't tell other people what to
do, but like having that realization,

I think I can make it as a person.

I think I can make it as a parent.

I think I can get better slowly
over time if I really try.

Like a realistic but hopeful realism.

Y- you know, that's been very important.

And trying to shrink some of these
panics and anxieties over time and,

yeah, recognize that it was just
getting in the way of being in the

present with them and the, the…

That was like kind of the big job.

Um- Yeah.

And I think I can't give advice either.

All I can say is I don't know how
to be a parent, but I know how

to be stable, consistent, steady.

Yeah, I need to work on that part of it.

Show up on time.

Yeah.

You know?

So maybe, so maybe you could do a- Get
them where they need to go on time.

Look, do you reckon if you had
less OCD burden going on, right?

Okay, so I could definitely be
more reliable and punctual, right?

Yeah.

And maybe- Hard with your ADHD, though.

Brutal, brutal, brutal struggle with
executive function all day, every day.

Anyway, 'cause I've also…

I've stopped taking, uh, one of my
medications, like, 'cause I, you know,

I'm like, "I just need to see if I
can just tough it out for a bit."

Um, anyway, but like maybe
you could be doing a little…

So I could be a bit more on time and stuff
like that, and you could do a bit more em-

emotional labor maybe, and this was my-
Yeah, I try and have conversations- Yeah

with the kids, and sometimes
they talk to me in the car.

Car's a good one.

Mostly they don't talk to me.

Mm.

But I check in, "How's it
going with your friends?"

Yeah.

"How's it going with your school?"

Yeah.

You know?

Like I do check in.

Yeah.

But I don't get into very deep
conversations, but we have hugs

and we say we love each other.

Yeah.

I think I'm always gonna
be that kind of dad.

Maybe when they're older they won't
want to have deep conversations.

Uh, yeah, I reckon I could see that.

In their 20s they'll…

Yeah.

'Cause I mean, just look, in general
also, if there's anyone who's still

living with their parents listening
to this, you know, it's like it does

get easier to talk to them as you get
older and they get older and like it's

not always You know, I'm r- I think
communication with my parents reached a

low somewhere around there, 13 to like
17, literally the age of your kids.

Yeah.

And then I think I remember from about
my 18th birthday onwards, I think we

were sort of, yeah, pretty much on a,
you know, increasing the bandwidth-

Yeah, yeah … over, over time.

That sounds nice.

Yeah.

I'd like to talk to them more.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, their teenagers aren't the
easiest in general, but- No … and

like, and, and, you know, science
tells us that they're very naturally

at this point of their lives
way more focused on their peers.

Yeah.

And where-- and that's a matter of
survival for them, and it makes sense,

and they need to move their primary
locus of identity outside the family-

Yes … and into broader society.

Yeah, and I'm cool with that.

Yeah.

And it has to be that way.

But God, it's gonna hurt.

Yeah.

I'm not looking forward to it.

But look, and I think just I ha- I
guess there was one other thing I wanted

to point out, which is I think, well,
'cause we were talking about worries and

anxieties and things you can't control
and like obsessive thoughts and so on.

I think for a lot of separated or divorced
parents, I think one of the things that

does cause people a lot of worry is
what's happening at the other place.

And I'm pleased to report that I
don't worry, you know- Yeah … about

them when they're with mom at all.

I trust her 100%, and
I would say like- Same.

Yeah.

And I would say also that, um, I know
for certain decisions are being made

that at times that I wouldn't agree with,
but it's, it's not-- doesn't trouble me.

Um, but I would say maybe,
uh, it might not be…

That might not be fully reciprocated at
this point, and like that's something that

I don't think is crazy or unreasonable.

Oh, she worries about
them while they're here.

I think she worries a bit more
about them when they're here than I

worry about them when they're there.

Because you're seem erratic.

Yeah.

And you know what?

That's fair because, uh, okay,
here's a really obvious thing that I

hadn't, haven't pointed out so far.

I don't wanna make it sound like
because I made this important decision

in my life finally after four people
telling me to do it, uh, a-and you

know, felt some immediate benefits
and, and gradually saw the, the kids

cope and adjust slowly to it, and we've
had some behavioral problems, which

is all pretty normal from what I hear.

And we-- you know, I feel like
it's getting better, right?

Uh, but the thing I haven't pointed
out is honestly, I have found it much

harder to parent singly than I did
before, and I I feel like this is

the one thing that I really left out.

I kind of wanted to say it up top.

I have found it quite hard, and I
would imagine even as a person who's

been told I had a high level of
parental investment earlier, right?

I was around a lot.

But nonetheless, despite the
quality of the relationship I

had with them, I st- I've still
found this really hard at times.

And that's with like a good place to call
my own for the time being and, uh, you

know, a lot of things going for me, right?

Not a, not a super demanding job
where, where I have to be out at

sparrow's fart and back when it's dark.

Like, I've got a lot of things
on my side here, and I've still

found it hard, so God knows.

I know some parents who've split
up who have it way harder than me.

I, yeah, I don't know how
they do it, so hats off.

But I'm gonna say figuring
out how you parent on your

own was harder than I thought.

Yeah, I find it when I have
the kids for a full week for

school holidays, it's brutal.

Oh, fuck.

I'm exhausted by the end.

I don't- Yeah, 100%.

That's why I'm 30%, man.

I don't think I can handle- Just
getting- … much more than four- 30%.

Yeah, maybe not.

Just knowing what to cook
for dinner each night.

Oh, God, it's- Such a drainer … such
an arm wrestle every day.

And the two kids don't
agree on the same dinner.

No.

God, that breaks me.

Like, God forbid they could
just eat the same meal.

It breaks me.

God forbid they could eat
the same fucking food.

Yeah.

Yeah, no, it really drives me
completely insane, and when I find

something they can semi agree on,
it's like hallelujah, but I feel like

it's never gonna be more than that.

Audrey just wants mac and cheese and,
and Oliver wants more interesting

food and like, she doesn't just want
that, but like it's a lot of the same

kind of stuff she wants and Oliver's
like, you know, he wants to experience

new things and, you know, so…

And God, so do I.

I got bored of the family
cooking, I'll be honest.

Yeah.

God.

Yeah.

I had the ex- I've had the experience-
I was on a good run until one kid

rejected spaghetti bolognese and
then everything- Now, now you're

fucked … it's all fallen apart.

100%.

That's the other thing.

But Sam, sometimes, you know what?

I do sausages and bread.

No veggies, just sausages and bread.

Sauce on the sausage.

Do you know what?

They would fucking love that.

Yep.

You know what?

That's not gonna win me any
parenting awards, but I'm also

not gonna go to parent jail.

No.

But look, if you're gonna do
Bunnings dinner, would it kill

you to like fry some onion, maybe
a little sauerkraut, you know?

Yeah, it would kill me.

All right, I think we
should leave it there, mate.

All right.

Thanks for having me in your home.

All right.

Oh, Joe, it's always great.

I feel better.

Good.

Do you feel better?

Yeah.

Good chat.

Yeah, yeah.

All right.

Go back to doing my ERP.

What's that?

Exposure response- Exposure
response- Prevention … prevention.

Yeah.

Exposure and response prevention.

Yes.

Something like that.

All right.

I might have it wrong.

We should do an episode about that
'cause I think I, I think a lot

of people could benefit from it.

Well, give me six months.

All right.

Yeah.

Okay.

All right, all right.

All right, mate.

All right, see you.

Bye.

Bye.