The Ten Thousand Things

Sam: Hello and welcome
back to The 10, 000 Things.

I'm Sam Ellis.

Joe: I'm Joe Loh.

Ali: And I'm Ali Catramados.

Sam: It's really good to see you guys.

Yeah.

Joe: Today on the show, attachment.

Sam: Yeah, we're raw dogging it.

Joe: So, you

Sam: know, you don't want
to, you don't want to.

Grease me up for some small talk.

First

Joe: attachment is basically
the new Myers-Briggs.

Yeah.

. That's true.

It's what everyone's talking
about in the dating world.

Yeah.

Okay.

We are doing small talk.

Uh, everyone knows their attachment style.

Mm-Hmm.

. And where everyone, I say everyone
in the navel gazing upper middle

class inner city of Melbourne.

Sam: So why did you say everyone.

Joe: Well, that's everyone I know.

You need to

Sam: expand your

Joe: I mean, that's

Ali: Just telling on yourself is fine.

Joe: That's my only

Sam: We are an inclusive show, aren't we?

Joe: That's my only sample
size is everyone I meet dating

knows about attachment styles.

Yeah.

But I thought I'd do a little
explainer for the listener who

doesn't know what they are.

And it's actually grounded
in quite solid science.

Sam: Your whole life is
a New Yorker think piece.

Joe: Uh, unlike a lot of the stuff
that's out there, I think it's quite

grounded in, in science and it comes
from, A guy called Bowlby in the fifties.

Oh, shit.

You've done your homework.

That was my job.

I have done my homework.

Sam: I've done my homework.

Joe: Just let me do a monologue.

look, it's about attachment to the primary
carer, usually the mother in infancy.

And for practical purposes in, uh, modern,
dating and relating, You end up with an

attachment style from how you attach to
your mother in infancy, and they can be

categorized roughly in three categories,
which is anxious, avoidant, or secure,

Ali: and disorganized.

Well, then

Joe: there's combos of those, so you might
have anxious, avoidant, and disorganized.

You know, and you might
switch from anxious to secure

within a healthy relationship.

And back.

Um, like Myers Briggs, you can do a quick
five minute online survey and find out

what your attachment style supposedly is.

Sam: The difference between Myers
Briggs This actually helps people and

Joe: it's grounded in some good science.

Yeah.

So there's like, I don't know, 70 years of
clinical literature batch backing it up.

It's very solid.

It's solid.

Certainly for infants.

how solid it is for adults and how it
plays into dating and relationships.

I think, I think it's,

Ali: It's helpful in having that awareness
of yourself in the dating context, because

it doesn't, I don't think it dictates how
you are going to be in a relationship.

All it is, is identifying what your, I
suppose, natural behavior is going to be,

whether you then act on it or conscious
of it and, you know, consciously decide.

So, it's, it's, it's having that awareness
at least of why am I feeling like this?

And then being able to positively
move forward with healthy behavior.

So it looks secure, or you
might not be feeling secure,

but you are behaving securely.

Joe: The image that just came
into my head was, you know, that,

is it a Michael Jackson video
where he turns into a werewolf?

Thriller.

Or, no, what am I thinking of?

Michael J.

Fox.

Michael J.

Fox.

Teen Wolf.

Teen Wolf.

And he looks down at his hands.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, like, and he's
turning into a werewolf.

Anxious attachment is like that for me.

Yeah.

When I send a text message, don't get
a reply, send another text message.

The monster comes out.

Don't get a reply, and
then send another one.

Yeah.

The treble text.

Oh.

Sure.

Like, I will, like,
what is happening to me?

You know?

Because I'm losing all my self
respect and I feel like I'm drowning.

Sam: Actually, self respect is
the wrong concept, but carry on.

Joe: I feel like I'm drowning.

An anxious attachment has been, for
me, anecdotally, in my own experience,

the most accurate way to explain
What's happening to me in those moments

where I feel possessed and I can't
I'm almost watching myself do shit

that I know I shouldn't be doing.

Sam: Oh my god.

We've got dangerous levels of agreement
going on here Joe I'm so impressed

Joe: Well, firstly, what
did you ever take the test?

What did you come out as?

Sam: I didn't need to take
the test because I'd already

worked it all out for myself.

Joe: That's the most Sam thing ever.

You would have to be disorganized.

Sam: Yes.

Well done.

I was going to ask you.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

No, the most disorganized
attachment you've ever seen.

No, that's not true.

I've seen worse than me.

I was

Ali: I feel like I might give
you a run for your money.

Sam: Absolutely.

Absolutely.

And someone else I know,
and I won't name names.

Joe, uh, you've done your homework, we
agree on it, the same amount, it would

seem, and you've been able to apply it.

You've said that nothing else
you've come across has given you

the ability to understand your own
behavior to like these specific

behaviors so usefully and powerfully.

And that's, these are
literally all of my thoughts.

And I guess my little preface to the
thing is like what Ali said before

about, Natural behaviors, and we don't
mean healthy when we say natural.

Ali: Yeah, it's just what's our go to.

What's the brain thinking
versus what it should be doing.

Yes.

Sam: And the only thing I would sort of
add or correct to anything you've said so

far is just these things are impacted by
the father as well, but yes, the mother

tends to be, you know, the primary.

The, other thing that I wanted to
add, these are adaptive strategies

and that they're correct in the sense
that they worked for the person who

learned these strategies and they are
not maladaptive in all circumstances.

So to take away the jargon, you aren't.

wrong with everything you're
doing, this was the right thing to

do for you when you were little.

Ali: So if you weren't getting the
attention that you needed as a child,

crying out and asking for that and
then getting the attention reinforces

that, that if I behave this way,
that's how it's going to get it.

Sam: This is how I get reassurance.

Yeah.

Ali: And similarly, like with,
avoidant, it's like, Oh, if I, you

know, Expressing my feelings is
going to cause a problem for me.

So I'm going to not say anything
at all, or I'm going to withdraw.

And that's how these things
become very entrenched.

Joe: So God's cruel joke in setting
things up this way is that anxious people

tend to be attracted to avoidant people.

Sam: Yes.

It's not, well, no, it actually
just makes, at first I was really

puzzled by it, but once I understood
what was going on, I'm like, Oh

no, no, this makes complete sense.

And I would just substitute the word
attracted with compelled to pursue.

And that's a very different thing
because the objective, but it feels

the same and it creates chemistry.

And so this is why people
keep repeating patterns.

Yeah.

Ali: It's like, is it your
pattern or is it your type?

And that, that's what I
was saying to Joe in that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It feels completely normal, yeah,
to have somebody either, yeah,

pulling away from you or doing that.

So, because that was your
experience, yeah, as a child.

So it, it, yeah, it feels really
familiar and that's why I like,

oh, that's, this is chemistry.

So can

Joe: you describe, uh, disorganized
attachment and how it's played out in say,

the last five years of your dating life?

Ali: So yeah, I, well, disorganized
attachment, which is, it's

rooted in trauma or it's linked
very much to childhood trauma.

So yeah, it's a combination of
anxious and avoidant attachment style.

So it's, it's really contextual
depending on who you're with.

Sam: And if I could just butt in for
two seconds, what will make this much

clearer to understand is when we say
that someone's, you know, dominantly

the anxious style, it means the
majority of their strategies when it

comes to creating secure attachment,
that's what everyone's seeking.

So we haven't spelt
this out clearly enough.

The fundamental assumption behind
all of this work is that primary

human drive is secure attachment.

So not even sex or food.

So before those things, and there are
studies that demonstrate this, the monkey

that prefers the soft thing that reminds
itself of its mother over the food.

So profound is our desire
for secure attachment.

That's the underlying
theory of this whole thing.

Therefore, When our attachment is
threatened, it is literally felt as

a threat on our existence, our life
itself and the purpose of life itself

has all been threatened all at once.

Without secure human attachment, we cannot
survive and we certainly cannot thrive.

Money though has a way of creating an
illusion that we can meet all of our

own needs without other human beings.

And so many of us have a fantasy
if we had enough money, we wouldn't

need to rely on anyone for anything.

But the truth is, no one can live a
full and happy life without music.

secure attachment with other human beings.

So we might end up with a dominantly
anxious or dominantly avoidant style,

or like Ali and I, we're an absolute
nightmare of a patchwork of strategies

across all these different circumstances.

And there's no real pattern to it until
you've observed it for long enough.

And then you can see, Oh, all of these
responses make sense in their own way.

Oh sorry, carry on with disordered words.

Joe: We'll come back to your personal
experience of it within a marriage,

which will be different from experience
of it within dating, but yeah, Ali,

get back to where you were before.

So I just wanted to get all that
straight just in case anyone's

confused up front about that.

Sam: Yeah.

Anyway, go for it.

Ali: So I've certainly been
in what I would say felt

secure in adult relationships.

I've felt secure.

I haven't,

Sam: you know what it feels like.

Ali: Yeah.

I know, I do know what it feels like.

And I think, like I said, it's
contextual because whoever I'm with

is for whatever reason, not making
me feel anxious by their behaviors.

So they do give all the
attention or whatever that I need.

And similarly will pull
back when I, I need that.

Sam: And so I know how to
not make you feel smothered.

Ali: Yeah, exactly.

So it's, and it's, uh, and
that's what makes me feel secure.

So it's been interesting.

Yeah.

So my two long term relationships, yeah,
we're both secure relationships and I

felt secure in those while I was in them.

It was, yeah, going into dating has
been a totally different, a minefield.

So yeah, like I, yeah, you send them,
you're like, why is this person, why

am I, you know, I say to my girlfriend,
like, why am I going psycho over

this, like, not getting a text back?

Why is this driving me crazy?

Like what is it specifically
about this person?

And it's, it's, yeah, there's something
that I'm not getting from them.

And we mistake that for like, yeah,
some sort of attraction or a desire.

Ultimately, we want to be
chosen, like that's a very human

thing to want to be chosen.

Like, Oh, I want to be
the exception to the rule.

I want this person yet to
choose me for whatever reason.

And similarly, I just

Sam: want to be married.

I don't care who too.

Ali: Yeah.

And then, and similarly with the,
like when I've , displayed avoidant

tendencies and it's when someone has.

Being overly, you know,
communicating yeah.

Like felt smothered and it's like,
I don't know what to do with this.

Oh, this is like offputting.

I, I don't know.

Yeah.

I'm, so, I, I withdraw and being
very aware of those behaviors,

I think it's made the choice for
me not so much about like, um.

You know, modifying all of my behaviors,
obviously not being completely crazy

and psycho and like, you know, and,
and giving into every urge or whatever,

but you know, it should be healthy and
normal, but the, whatever normal is, but

it is, it's made me consciously aware
of who I'm choosing to be with and what

feelings I'm feeling when I'm with them.

And if I'm feeling secure and
stable with them, that's, That's

a better feeling than, yeah,
that's, that's what I'm going with.

And that's, that's the one I should
be pursuing rather than the one that's

making me feel a bit crazy about myself.

Joe: Correct.

Like from what Sam said that we
will feel like we won't survive

unless we get secure attachment.

Sam: Yeah.

It's like a threat to our life.

Joe: Yeah.

It's fight or flight.

Have you ever had that in the last five
years of dating ever had that, what

I'm describing, a feeling of drowning,
which is what Sam contextualized

as feeling that I won't survive.

Feeling like I won't survive is just,
I would describe as feel like I'm

drowning, like I'm running out of air
here and all that's happened is someone

has left me on read for three hours.

Sam: I prefer the drowning metaphor to
the more clinical language I've used.

It's powerful.

Cause it's, yeah,

Joe: it's.

Have you had that though?

Yes.

As a disorganized style.

Ali: Yeah, absolutely.

I felt it.

It's, But that it's, our
brains are designed to keep us

alive, not and to keep us safe.

Not to make us happy.

Joe: But let me ask you this.

You say it feels nice when you go
into secure attachment or towards

secure attachment, which you,
you believe you're capable of?

Ali: Yes.

Right.

But it, it.

Sometimes that can be mistaken as boring.

Sam: Yeah.

Joe: That's what I was going to say.

How do you compare that feeling of
going towards secure attachment to

that feeling of relief and exhilaration
when that person you're anxiously

attached to does give you the attention?

Ali: Oh, that's thrilling
and intoxicating.

Joe: It's like heroin, I need some more.

Ali: Oh yeah, it's just, it's fun.

It's feeding something in the brain
that's probably extremely unhealthy,

but it feels, it's euphoric.

It's like, Oh, I finally got the thing.

Yeah, I got chosen.

I was, that's the one I want.

So there you go.

Joe: That's the, that's my last
eight years of dating summed up.

Basically, I'm addicted to that
feeling of relief when that person

who you're not sure wants to be with
you gives you the full attention,

Ali: it's extremely validating,

Joe: on for even if it's for an
hour, that I can stay high on for

days, whereas someone calmly and
stably consistently saying they

would like to Hang out with you.

I just, I have to try and
trick myself into wanting that,

Ali: It's not so much
about tricking yourself.

Sam: I know that feeling though.

Ali: It is.

It's like, yeah, my psychologist is
like, just give it time and, go back

to your list of things that you want
and are looking for in a relationship

and see if it's actually ticking all
those boxes and you feel secure with it.

That's, That's the healthy goal, like
work towards that and just give it time.

The thing with the, the anxious and the
avoidance sort of stuff is that that all

sort of happens quite quickly and you
get triggered by it extremely quickly.

Like with some people,

Joe: within two weeks, it's like,

Ali: yeah, you're not yourself.

Joe: My whole life depends on
what this person thinks of me.

Ali: Yeah.

And you're, and you're making really
like, yeah, I'm making really bad

decisions and you know, things
that are not healthy and impulsive.

Yeah.

Joe: How is that explained by people
who don't know about attachment style?

Is that explained as.

I've met the one or this is hot and sexy.

Absolutely.

Because we have this clinical knowledge
that yeah, not it's, it's in the

zeitgeist in Melbourne, but I don't
know how many people know about it.

Sam: So can I just say this,
even if it's in the zeitgeist,

the vast majority of people have
not grasped the topic properly.

And I know this because I listened to
about six different podcasts on the topic.

So I'm absolutely down
the rabbit hole on this.

I'm an evangelist.

I'm completely sold on it, so take
everything I say with a grain of salt.

Well, tell us about your experience.

I mean I'll absolutely
go there, and I'll Yeah.

But I just want to say this first,
the practitioners These themselves

gently express a degree of frustration
with the fact that people don't

actually understand this properly.

And the two big misunderstandings are,
that avoidant is narcissism and that

avoidant are bad people and that anxious
are victims and avoidant are, you

know, abusers, which is really, really,
really, really, really Dreadfully unfair.

Ali: And it's completely inaccurate.

And completely inaccurate.

And

Sam: the people that are walking around
believing that are really doing themselves

a disservice because this is a story as we
talk about in therapy, stories that help

us to hide things and hide from things and
stories that get us away from the truth.

And this is one of them because that
story protects that person from the

need to change anything they're doing.

And it, It enables us to place the
locus of the security onto someone

else, which is the whole problem.

When we're, whether we're doing
anxious or avoidant or disordered,

it all boils down to the same thing
that we feel our security depends

on what this other person is doing.

And we're not paying enough
attention to what we can control

and what we need to do differently.

And Becoming more conscious of triggers
and patterns of response and just

inch by inch cutting those back and
not going as far each time and then

eventually not even acting on the
trigger at all and recognizing that

we can't feel securely attached.

All by ourselves, but experiencing a
feeling of security just in our own body.

That's where we have to begin.

And when people talk very vague in
vague terms about self care, I think

we need to be much more specific,
creating safety for ourselves.

And then we can start to

respond to other human beings.

Joe: Because that was one question
I had from what you said before

was, well, this need to attach is

Sam: Fundamental.

Joe: Fundamental.

What about people who are single,
like my mum's been single for

20 plus years since my dad died.

Well, she'll have really good friends.

She has great friends, but is she
attaching to, see attachment to me.

I only experience any intensity of
it, really, in romantic relationships.

Well, sure.

Sam: And this, and this is, this
is why romantic relationships have

become the focus for all of the
discussion about attachment theory.

But there's a whole area we're
neglecting here, which is friendships

and children, parent relationships.

Ali: Exactly.

Yeah.

Like there will be, there will be people
who, yeah, have that anxious feeling every

time their parent calls them or avoidant

Sam: towards their parents or that,

Ali: yeah, there's some sort of.

Yeah, similarly with friends.

It's like, Oh, my friend
hasn't called me back.

What have I done wrong?

Like that will feel those feel,
you know, I want to apologize.

What have I done wrong?

And they're feeling that with
all of their attachments.

Sam: All my friends having feelings again.

I just can't cope.

Ali: Yeah.

Joe: I'll get anxious if I say
something particularly nasty to

Ali, which I'll do because me
and Ali texts all day, every day.

Sam: The reason you're still friends is
you can say mean things and she finds it.

She deals with it.

Relatively well,

yeah, but I will get anxious if it's
like, Oh, I think that could be it.

I think she might not talk to me again,

but

Ali: semi regularly, no, it's, it's
about then me putting in a boundary with

myself and going, you know, I'm just
going to take a step back, calm down.

Well, you know, I'll tell her,
I'll say like, that's why I

found that really offensive.

Joe: All I'm saying is, I guess.

I can feel that some sense of
that same sense of Uh, drowning

in a friendship context, but even
then it's nowhere near as intense.

Sam: Okay.

And this is because

Ali: you feel relatively secure
that, you know, Oh, she's just

taking a moment or like, yeah,

Joe: I don't know, but I, I more
rationally than in the romantic

relationship think if that person
never talks to me, I'll be okay because

I have a map in my head of say a
hundred friends that I have, right?

With a romantic partner, I'm a
monogamist, one person at a time.

I'm only ever thinking this person.

And as you know, like, and plus I'm
imagining maybe 30 years together of a

future and being on a boogie boards at
70, you know, like, like I, I will do.

Sam: Disordered attachment
going on so much.

Yeah.

This is crazy stuff.

Joe: But like, because there's all
this going on in my imagination of

the future, when they suddenly don't
reply to a text or they suddenly.

Cancel a plan or whatever it is,

Sam: it's very painful.

Ali: Yeah.

It's the loss of your imagined future.

Joe: Whereas one of many friends
suddenly not talking to me for a

few hours doesn't hit the same way.

Right.

Ali: But

there's a different, like, it's not
like I'm going to, in the context of

yeah, us, I, I haven't just gone like,
Ghosted for two weeks or whatever.

And you've never heard like, I don't,
so I think maybe, yeah, you know, yeah,

she just might need a couple, like you
said, a couple of hours or it could be,

you know, even if it was a few days,
it's, it's, it's different to then, yeah.

Like somebody just sort of going no
contact in the, without any explanation

in the dating context, which happens
all the time for a variety of reasons.

So,

Sam: so I guess what's happening
here, if you want my opinion, is that

you, you're experiencing a degree of
secure attachment with friendships.

And so you're not highly likely to
panic about friends withdrawing.

So friends are not going to trigger
your anxious attachment too easily.

And you're actually pretty good with doing
boundaries avoidant tendencies either.

But

Ali: it's because your
expectations around.

Friendships and what you will get from
friendships is different to what your

expectations are in a romantic context.

Sam: That's other thing is

your expectations with friends
are actually quite balanced

and achievable and sane.

And those are what your Intimate
relationship expectations need to be also

Joe: I mean, I'm always testing with
friends, so I will do things like

Sam: Yes, you do.

You are a raptor testing the fences.

Yes, it's true.

Joe: Well, there's testing in terms of
can I attack or say something might be

offensive to the dominant, you know,
cultural norms of our community or

whatever, and see what happens .And
like since the last episode we recorded,

both of you call me a cunt on the,
independently about different things,

call me a cunt on the group chat.

Sam: Show gossip.

Ali: Yep.

Behind the scenes.

Joe: But like, that's one tip, but the
other tip, so that's one form of testing.

But then when we then meet up and it's
all fine in person, then that's true

to me, that friendship is stronger.

Sam: Oh, I agree.

Joe: Oh, I can go right out there.

And explore ideas I find interesting
and, and be called a cunt for it.

Sam: It's brought us closer together.

Ali: Yes.

Joe: And then come back and that
person, but I wouldn't, you know,

because I've only ever been in the
first six months of a relationship in

the last eight years, you never quite
get to a point where you're like, I

can push this and see what happens.

Sam: Yeah.

Ali: And then you've got to the other
side of it and seen it's going to be okay.

Joe: And if you push it and see
what happens, usually it's over.

So, and I want to push it.

But the other thing I'll do is sit there
and delete every whatsapp message I

have and try to not text anyone first
and it's a test to see what friends I

actually have and then I wait and as I'm
waiting sometimes I'll start to feel a bit

anxious but again it's not, it's not the
level of intensity of when I'm sleeping

with someone it gets really ramped up.

Sam: And of course I've psychoanalyzed
you a lot on this show and I'm

gonna do it again because I love it.

We've talked about this before that
The dominant focus for your, where

you're putting your personal energy
and like a lot of thought going into

romantic relationships, which I won't
criticize you for, but it is maybe a

little bit outsized and the expectations
that you have on those are higher than

they are on friendships and, and your
friend provided a very useful idea

about, you know, looking for the magic
vagina and so on I think that one is,

is adjacent to all of this, right?

and we talked previously about
relationships with parents.

We've gone into that on and other
episodes of this show and really

gotten into some interesting territory,
including a recent ish show that I

felt was one of our finest, where we
were really exploring that crossover

between the parental relationship and
the intimate partnerships later in life

and recognizing that For example, we've
all had problematic childhoods and

not just run of the mill stuff either.

I think we've all, we can all really
nail our colours to the mask and

say we all had quite difficult
childhoods, compared to the average.

Uh, I,

Joe: I, I don't identify as that.

And now we're not I, I
agree that both of you have.

I, I can't really say that.

Sam: And we're not claiming
victim status here.

The purpose of this statement, Joe, is Uh,

Joe: I just think you two have much
more dramatic stories, actually,

about your childhoods than I do.

Yeah, but it's, it doesn't

Sam: It doesn't matter.

They're picturesque, but they're not.

Ali: Yeah, what it's had on you.

Joe: I had things happen to me that
another kid would be fine with.

But it might have

You could say being sent to a
military Hare Krishna boarding

school would be fine for some kids.

It probably would be, you know.

The horrific things that happened
to Ali would be not okay for anyone.

Not good for anyone, yeah.

Me is very subtle kind of stuff, really.

But I've been thinking
back on some of those.

I don't, I just want to pick
you up on that because I don't

strongly identify as someone who
had a dramatically bad childhood.

All right.

Well, certainly I came
into adulthood lacking some

fundamental sense of security.

Sam: So we're going to agree on that.

Yeah.

And, and, and that's all we really
need to proceed with what I'm going

for here, which is to recognize that.

I can think of so many stories you've
told me, not just about childhood, but the

teenage years, the twenties and thirties,
where there were times when I think you

felt completely alone and that there
was no one you could really count on.

And that's what we're talking about here.

That's what secure
attachment boils down to.

Feeling that you, it's not
that someone is there for me.

That's not quite it.

It's I am capable of creating and
sustaining relationships where this

need can be met and I can meet it for
others and I want to meet this need for

others as much as I want it met for me.

So this is about not I will find
the person that will give me

security, it's I will be the person.

Who will make choices that
will move me towards security.

And I've just met this
person, they're awesome.

We cooked dinner together.

It was such a vibe.

I'm picturing our future now, slow
down, be in the moment and remember that

you're still in the driver's seat and you
know, everyone here has various ways of

getting out of the driver's seat, right?

I'm an expert.

That's it.

You know, Ali's into astrology.

I'm into it too, to a degree.

I enjoy it.

Ali: Yeah.

I love it.

I love it.

It's middle class white woman.

It's like my culture.

Sam: And Joe sneers at astrology
meanwhile, but looks for signs,

which is, you know, the same bloody
thing, if you want my opinion.

And me, I look for signs,
uh, oracles of all kinds.

Joe: I don't know.

No, I disagree with that too.

I would say I get signs
whether I want them or not.

Sam: Oh, well, that is an
interesting take, actually.

And that is

Joe: what I don't believe
in is coincidences.

Sam: I know that feeling.

Joe: And that is anyway,
that's a side track.

I want to know, Sam, how Disorganized
attachment, which is what you've

described, how it's played out.

Well, you can go back to your
dating life or you can talk

about your married life or both.

Sam: I'm happy to, whatever
you're interested in.

Joe: I think because the only value
of this podcast is, is our personal

experience, because someone could
listen to experts like psychologists

talk about attachment styles,
but what's your experience with

your attachment?

Sam: Yeah, well, connecting it to personal
experience is critical to help it.

We're

Joe: just putting, like, what
you've learned to one side, like,

uh, academically to one side.

What's your personal felt
experience of attachment stuff?

Sam: Well, the second I started
learning about it, I was like,

this is very interesting.

, It was making a lot of sense.

It was resonating deeply
with personal experience.

To me, like, learning stuff and like that
the chemistry of Ooh, this is interesting.

It's always been pretty much identical to
Ooh, this is , triggering feelings of I'm

interested because it relates to personal
experience like anyone on the spectrum

can tell you like it's it's all about it's
all about our special interests all the

time but and so this has become a special
interest but It's not for no reason.

It's resonating with lived
experience very deeply.

And that's kind of what I was trying
to get at before with getting out

of the driver's seat and we've
all, we all find ways to do that.

And therapy is just all about getting back
in the driver's seat and taking control of

what you can and should take control of.

Ali: I would so much rather
tell my psychologist, it's like

I'm a Sagittarius and it's not
because I have mental illness.

Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

Sam: And I would rather exasperate mine by
banging on about stuff that doesn't relate

to what I can control and need to control.

And so attachment theory has
really given me some powerful

clues about what I actually have a
responsibility to be doing differently,

like to myself and for others.

So to childhood, boarding school was and
I'm not getting out the string section

here to like, I'm not panning for pity.

It's just, yeah.

It's just a fact that, um, you know, there
was a room full of children there who were

away from their parents at a young age.

Well, I think I was about six, and
there were kids there who may have been

younger and some who were older, and
everyone in that dormitory was crying

the first night, and most of those
kids wet the bed, and, you know, little

by little, uh, people, young people,
children, the children in that room,

one by one they stopped crying, and one
by one they stopped wetting the bed.

And one by one they Adjusted to
this new reality because that's, you

know, children are very adaptable.

Now here's where attachment comes in.

You learn strategies based on
the circumstances you encountered

and you learn things like who
in this situation can I count

on and how can I get attention?

How can I get?

Care from adults.

How can I attract nurturance?

And these aren't the, like, conscious
questions you're asking yourself, but,

you know, years later you go, Oh, I see.

And maybe if, well, for example, you
can, just classic childhood strategies,

I did all of these, you can act out.

That'll get your attention from adults
and caregivers, you can punch another

kid, you can swear, you can do, get
into a fight with your siblings, you

can, steal stuff and stash it and try to
create a feeling of security that way.

That's something I did.

You can, try and be the perfect child
and attract, um, You know, approval from

adults that way, you know, it's like,
Oh, let's figure out whatever the game

is here that we're meant to be playing.

Let's play it.

Let's win it.

Ali: That's um, very related.

That one's hitting.

That one's hitting.

Sam: Yep.

I'm going to be the model
student or whatever it is,

whatever these fucking hoops are.

Okay.

Hoops is it.

Great.

Let's jump through them.

And you know, so for, for obviously
for me, it was religion And there

are ways to excel here in this.

We need to learn, we
need to know scripture.

Okay.

All right.

Well, I will fucking learn the ass
off this scripture and I'll, I'll be

able to recite slabs of it to adults
and I'll impress the shit out of them.

Now, so that's post hoc rationalization.

I didn't know what I was doing as a child.

What I was doing was being drawn
to the things that got approval

from adults because then there was
a chance that with that approval,

there might be some nurturing, there
might be some fucking parenting.

because, you know, I was well
bonded to my primary carer, from

birth through to age six and then
separation from the primary carer.

So it's a complex picture.

It wasn't like horrible abuse and
neglect in the home, no, not at all.

They did a good job when I was there.

They were quite good parents,
like by objective standards.

When I was in the home, I received
the right kind of boundaries, I

got the right kind of nurturing.

I got listened to most of the time,
I didn't get dismissed constantly.

These are classic things that
cause attachment issues, by the

way, that's why I'm listing them.

I got a degree of help regulating my
emotions and like, you know, recovering

from tantrums and things like that.

And it was not super difficult to win
their approval or anything like that.

but you know.

There were still like mistakes they made
within the normal course of parenting

within the house, but like all of that by
itself might have led to a mild, some mild

attachment issues, nothing too serious.

Their own relationship was very
problematic, but it also had good seasons.

So they, you know, they were able to work
through their issues as a couple as well.

So again, that's another
very healthy thing to see.

So there were, and I saw people,
Two people who were struggling

with a lot of things, but were
able to give each other support and

really stood by each other as well.

So like I had some good, some good role
modeling in there, in amongst the normal

sort of challenges of life and childhood,
but the boarding school stuff was really

going to throw a spanner in the works, no
matter how good a job they did at home.

Because it's a very unnatural situation
in many respects and quite natural in

other ways because you make a community
with your peers and you do bond really

well with the other children and so like
meeting other people and getting, learning

to get along well with them quickly has
never been too much of a problem for me.

but how's this manifested in adult life?

Well, one of the things that happened
is I would be quite comfortable

in institutional settings where the
expectations were clear and where

the goals of the game were clear
and how to win was clear, how to

be the best at whatever was clear.

And then in circumstances where
it was a bit unclear or ambiguous

or whatever, struggled greatly.

unfortunately though.

You can lose yourself in this process.

Okay, so my job here is to be the
model, whatever it is, and then

attract the approval of others.

And this is how I will
get secure attachment.

And this is not just romantic.

In fact, I think for a long time, the
area I struggled, with the most was

actually looking for those parental
figures and mentors and people like

that and actually would find them.

But it became about pleasing them
and not about learning through this

relationship what I needed to learn.

And, but some of those people
were quite good at steering me.

A lot of people were steering
me towards this constantly.

The wise people that did emerge were
often telling me things like in my late

teens, early twenties, were telling
me things like, but what do you want?

And I didn't know how
to answer that question.

Like who are you?

And I'm like, I don't know.

And I probably had some clever answer
like, well, , no one is any one

thing and, you know, I am whatever
the situation, you know, we're

all different people in different
contexts and, you know, well actually

Joe: Is this why you
spent 10 years at uni?

Sam: Yeah, yep, yep, yes, that and being
disorganized and not liking to write

essays, yeah, but yeah no no that's
right uni was a nice safe environment in

many ways absolutely bit of a shelter.

Joe: Well you said you knew how to perform
in an institutional environment, and

Sam: how to win the approval Adults.

Joe: Yeah, I'm sure

your lecturers loved you, but
then were like, Sam, you've

got to get that essay in.

Sam: Oh, it would drive them insane.

Yeah.

Joe: Like, I'd love to pass
you, mate, but like, you've

really got to write something.

Like, you know this stuff better
than everyone else in the class,

but you haven't written it.

Sam: You haven't written a damn word.

What's the matter with you?

Yeah.

And, and no, I can't make
different rules for you.

Yeah.

So this is one of the, this
is one of the areas where it.

Joe: But you haven't gotten into
any romantic relationships yet.

Sam: Well, I wanted to
demonstrate that attachment.

It can be problematic and it can
affect all manner of relationships.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Go on Ali.

Ali: I was going to say, like in
the context of my childhood and so

having an autistic mother, which I
wish, I think who struggled to attach

to us for a variety of reasons.

Joe: And she didn't know she was autistic.

Ali: Didn't know she was autistic.

And then having a father.

So that, I suppose, was
what made me anxious.

And then having a father who was
quite volatile, who had his own

mental health struggles, again, he
also didn't know, so it was best to

avoid lest you trigger something.

And what, like, as an adult, outside of a
romantic context, it has created, a hyper

independence from a really young age.

So it, like, I, I, Completely related
to, yeah, like, you know, wanting

other ways of seeking approval or
getting attention and things like that.

But it also very much came back to,
I cannot rely on anyone but myself.

And I, that is something I still
really struggle to reach out and ask

for help of the people I care about.

Like, if it, like, you know, it's, I
have no issue, you know, say calling a

doctor and saying like, I'm, you know,
Um, this is the problem why I'm not coping

with it, but I'm going to do it myself.

I'm going to manage it.

I'm yeah.

And it's the same.

And that is with a lot of things,
but that's, it's so rooted in

like, yeah, that it doesn't just
affect romantic relationships.

Sam: To be approved of by others,
which I must have in order to,

for them to want to be around me.

So I ended up with this quite one
dimensional idea of what it took to

Have the approval of others that I
have to be, I have to be perfect.

I have to be very consistent.

I can't, I can't show weakness.

Other people can't handle my
true feelings that therefore

I have to manage them myself.

And well, it's true.

Sometimes you do have to manage your
own feelings and that's actually

your responsibility, but, but
if your whole approach becomes,

let's hide all the undesirable
things about myself, um, because.

They are a threat to attachment.

Ali: Yeah, you become avoidant and
you're like, and it's almost like, I'm

going to spare this person my chaos.

I'm going to spare this person
my volatility or whatever it is.

I've got to work it out myself.

So yeah, so you either become avoidant.

And, and that's how it, yeah,
it can manifest in some ways.

It's, it's very, yeah.

Well,

Sam: that's how the disorder, the
disordered style comes in or the

disorganized attachment because in
both of our cases, because there were,

there were reasons to use clinging
approval seeking type strategies.

And there were also reasons to use
these avoidant type strategies.

And because of course in the, because
we're experiencing it on both ends of

it, the, the The strong feelings of the
parent that we can't contain or deal

with, and Also, I'm going to guess in
your case as well, confided in a little

too much, maybe by adults as well.

Ali: Yep.

Sam: Because of the, you know,
what appeared to be the maturity

of that, you know, the ASD team.

Yes.

And you know, knowing
They're still doing that.

Yeah, still doing that.

Being privy to things we
really shouldn't be doing.

Oh yeah, like,

Ali: yeah, like, like last weekend,
my sister and I, like, having to

put really clear boundaries in
with my parents, it's like, Nope,

this is, No, we're not doing this.

We're still,

yeah.

Yeah, that's right.

And then on the other side, Oh,
my strong feelings here can't

be contained by these people.

These people do not welcome
these strong feelings.

Joe: So Sam,

I don't want to let you off the
hook of romantic relationships.

Sam: I'm saving the juicy bit for last.

It's a tabloid.

Joe: Come on, mate.

Like, we want to be salacious.

We want to get into, it's hot and
steamy, it's the early noughties.

Yeah.

You're strolling down Brunswick Street.

How is your, uh, attachment
stuff playing out?

Sam: Yeah, actually.

Oh man, I really want to talk
about the early noughties, but

can I start in like, say, 95, 96?

Joe: Sure.

I just want to hear about how
attachment played out in romantic

relationships across your life.

Sam: Dude, that's the only thing that
matters to Joe, and this is the problem.

Joe: Well, the parental friend stuff

Sam: is all very well, but I
can't root my mum, you know?

That's right.

I mean, I could try, but it's not right.

Joe: There's some rooting going
on, you know, otherwise they'll

tune into another podcast.

Sam: Hey, look, let's get the rooting out.

So, let's say my first proper, my
first proper girlfriend, God bless her.

I still think about her , in the sense
of like, Oh God, I was such Uh, I

would have been a real nightmare, and
I'm so sorry, and I hope you're alive.

Joe: That's where I'm at with, anyway,
shout out , if you're, oh my god,

naming names!

No, I'm not going to name second
names, but, I genuinely hope

you're okay, because, uh, I was,

Ali: you caused some damage,

Joe: right.

So what you're saying is by the
time you hit 16, you're fully

primed to create attachment chaos,

Sam: to absolutely leave havoc in
my way and, and not knowing why or

meaning to at all and very much having
the best of intentions and constant,

like the parents that these people
will like all had the same assessment,

more or less that, he's a good guy.

Joe: Away you go.

But what they didn't know, that,
well yeah, I am, uh, but I have

feelings that I don't understand
and these get triggered when I feel

close to people and they're about to
happen right now with your daughter.

So sorry.

Yeah.

But I didn't know.

No one had explained attachment
theory to me and this is how I really

wanted to introduce this subject.

Why the fuck did no one
explain this to me before now?

Yeah.

Like, God damn it.

Ali: Yeah.

Like it really is.

It's only come across my radar in the
last five years in dating and that, yeah.

But prior to that, it's like, Oh, that
would have been really useful information.

God damn it.

Yeah.

Joe: It entered the zeitgeist,
at least in Melbourne.

Oh, very much so.

I don't know where else, but like
it entered the zeitgeist and then

it explained a whole bunch of stuff.

Yeah.

But yeah, it has been around
since the fifties and sixties.

Sam: Oh yeah, man.

It's as old as the hills.

But like, so that anyway, so the first
girlfriend, like she, absolutely nothing

wrong with it, but I started getting
the avoids and I didn't know why.

And I was, I was just like,
okay, what's happening here?

I said this anxious sort of queasy
feeling like, and it wasn't all the

time, I was getting along really well,
you know, there was no problem with

the physical attraction or anything
like that, but I wasn't going down a

long list of, you know, things that
are wrong with you at first, right?

but what I didn't know
until years later is.

The second I felt like this
person's feelings now depended

to a degree on me and what I did,
and that I had the capacity now.

The door was open that I
could hurt this person.

That feeling of having a responsibility
for someone else's feelings, that

brought out the avoids very strongly.

I want to be somewhere else now and
I don't want to continue seeing you.

But I didn't know why and I didn't have
any way of explaining it to myself or to

her and so I just kind of kept trying to
be in a relationship for a while until

eventually I'm like, no, I can't do this.

And she's just like, what have I done?

You know, like it was all gone so well.

And I'm like, I don't know.

I just don't know.

Like I just , all of a sudden I was
just like, I can't, I can't, I can't.

And it was experienced.

So it's experienced differently sometimes,
but there will tend to be anxiety.

So this is one of the misconceptions
about the avoidant style.

That they don't experience anxiety.

It's all there in the name,
anxious attachment, right?

Well, some people have suggested renaming
these things, but you know, too late now.

But the avoidant type will often
experience a lot of anxiety.

Ali: Well, the avoidant
behavior is rooted in anxiety.

Sam: It's getting away
from the source of anxiety.

Yeah.

Now the clinging style, which I kind of
think of it more, you know, the anxious

style, which can also lead to avoidant
behavior, because that might be a better

strategy than trying to get the person.

Yeah.

It's like, Oh, Oh, I must, they
must, they must, they must, I now

depend on them and what they do.

And the avoidant is like.

Oh God, they now depend
on me and what I do.

I can't handle this.

This is making me anxious.

And yeah,

Joe: so I've had a
couple of those classic.

Like, just clinically, what you described,
classic, like, the first relationship

after the relationship with the mother
of my children was like, must be like,

you could study it as a textbook case
of avoidant and an anxious, attached

person trying to have a relationship.

And, uh, and in the end, this is so,
sounds so teenage, but at the six month

mark, I It got to a point where I wanted
her, I wanted to be able to call her my

girlfriend and she did not, this is two
people in their late thirties, she did

not want to be called a girlfriend, but
was happy to continue the monogamous

relationship we were already having.

And it, it seems so important
to me that I'd be able to say to

people that I have a girlfriend

I ended it.

So, I mean, that's where that particular
dance, but yeah, the avoidance, but I

remember I've kept it in my phone, an
email she sent from the avoidant point of

view, and it clearly, which surprised me
because she was ice cold the entire time.

It surprised me how much turmoil
she'd been through trying to

sort of give me what I needed.

And in the end, she'd had to
say "I'm not in love with you."

That was about a month before the,
you know, end of the relationship.

Yeah.

And, yeah, like, that's, that was a
great moment because I started to feel

a feeling, pretended I was okay, got
up and walked outside and then felt

this incredible, like, like, stomach
ripping out kind of feeling, right?

Yeah.

was interesting, like, that I
could, certainly wasn't going

to show her that, you know?

Mm.

Mm.

so I mean, that was what, that was, and
that's before that I'd had a secure long

term relationship and two children, right?

So I know that I'm personally,
I don't know about you two, but

I'm capable of secure attachment.

Maybe Sam, you've found it in your
marriage at times, at times, and

maybe it sounds like you found it
in the relationship with the father,

with your father of your children.

I mean, I guess to speed things up a
bit, Sam, can you give me like a, Just a

pattern from through to your wife, that
period of being single, you know, being

single or having shorter relationships.

What was the pattern that when you
look back, you see, just attachment

wise, what do you see like in concrete
terms that someone who knows nothing

about attachment could understand?

Sam: Well, it's pretty clear looking
back over it that You know, it's perhaps

less interesting and salacious than it
should be, but basically not having any

difficulty meeting and forming initial
attachment with friends and intimate

partners and meeting appropriate people.

Um,

to have friends and intimate relationships
with, by and large, choosing the right

kind of people, not just for me, but in
general, like just by objective standards,

people themselves fairly capable of secure
attachment, not, not too problematic

in, you know, any kind of obvious way.

even with all the exasperating shit
I put them through, most of them were

still actually fairly easy to be around.

and just of hitting within
three to six to 12 months.

A major, anxiety and panic and revulsion
and a desire to be somewhere else.

these are people who were like, you
know, attractive intellectually.

stylish, they had pursuits and in desire
for an independent existence, they

weren't smothering me, they weren't
like, well, not a great deal anyway,

you know, and they weren't, placing a
sort of unmeetable expectations on me,

for emotional nurturance, they weren't
like doing massive amounts of trauma

dumping or telling me endless stories
about friend problems or, or quite

capable of accepting just the, okay,
okay, I think I've heard enough about.

All that, you know, whatever, could
kind of deal with me pretty well.

But sooner or later, I'd be like, yuck.

Yeah.

But all right.

So if you go back, I've got to go

Joe: before you go back to say,
yeah, like existentialism, if

you're looking at it through that
lens instead of attachment, or

Sam: actually that's a very good lens.

It's related

Joe: to think of like the
strokes, you know, is this it?

Yeah, yeah, six month, the six
month mark to me is, is this it?

Sam: Well, but it's the wrong question.

Joe: I've done that, and we've done
that, and we went away, and you met

my friends, and here we are, and
it's Sunday morning, and is this it?

See,

Sam: none of those things are the test.

Joe: Like, is this it forever?

None of those things are the test.

And then that's where,

I don't know if you'd call that avoidant,
but I'm heading for the door, man.

Oh, 100%.

And so I always put it through that
lens of whether it's like a Jack Kerouac

or a, or a, all those songs about, you
know, There's nothing prettier than

looking back on the town you left behind.

I'm going to be out riding the rails.

Admittedly, I was just, you know, catching
a tram in Fitzroy or something, but

like when you're in your twenties, you
just, you move on and you dump people.

You don't even really care that
you've hurt them that much.

And you've just, it's how you,
sorry, I'm speaking for myself.

I tell myself a romantic story and I move
on and I'm riding the rail and I'm onto

the next little town and whatever, right?

Ali: You've men in, just menaces.

Joe: And I'm wearing one of those,
you know, like a Humphrey Bogart hat.

Yeah, yeah.

Sam: Horrific.

Joe: That's what it's like.

Sam: Hey look, can I

Joe: just, and I'm

not thinking attachment theory, I'm
thinking romanticism, essentially.

Sam: All of that stuff made sense to me,
except for the part about not caring about

the hurt, because the thing that gave me
the most difficulty was the idea that this

person was now Securely attached to me.

That was, that was the issue, like,
oh, I'm securely attached to them.

Yeah, that's not too bad.

Cause look, this person, as I've
described people so far, partners who were

Joe: appropriate,

Sam: trustworthy, highly
trustworthy people.

Goddammit.

Like you could give them your children
and your keys and your bank account

and you'd have nothing to regret.

But I'm telling you, I have chosen
outstanding partners and then

completely driven them insane.

Like over like 12 to 24 months,
sometimes within six months, but like,

Joe: you don't get a free pass on
your behaviors just because you have.

Disorganized attachment.

Sam: No, no, no, no, no.

You still have a responsibility.

Joe: Because we all have that,
that chain, causal chain of

thoughts, emotions, actions.

And we all have to be
responsible for our actions.

Absolutely.

Sam: We have to be responsible for
what we can be responsible for.

Joe: I mean, it's only to reflect
and like, is there something

I can overlay over this?

Sam: Of course.

Joe: But we always do.

As much as we, who knows if we have free
will, but we certainly are the illusion

of, I can make this decision, I can, I
can break up with this person or I can

stay with this person and work on it.

You know, like we certainly
seem to have that agency.

And when we

Sam: Well, I would expect Experience
a conscious sense of agency, but then

I didn't know what to do with it.

I would find myself unable to exercise it.

Ali: It's like waiting, you're anxious
and you're waiting for the text and you're

like, and the, yeah, I'm like, I'm going
to, like you, I want to send the text.

I want to send the second,
the third, the fourth text.

And it's actually
turning around and going.

I'm not going to send
the text and follow up.

I'm going to sit with those feelings
and process them and like, why

am I feeling anxious about not
hearing back from that person?

So that's the change in behavior.

So we are perfectly capable of doing that.

But then like, yeah, I think,
I mean, we've all done that.

We've all been the crazy ex to a
certain extent to somebody else.

Sam: Absolutely.

Like, yeah, everybody.

Yeah.

We've all done something.

Ali: I mean, like, I do
not believe anyone who.

Has not done something that
wasn't a little bit crazy.

Sam: Everything my exes have ever done
was all proportional and reasonable if

you understood what had passed between us.

Yeah.

I literally can't.

Ali: Whether it was in response
to their behavior or yeah.

Something that came from yourself.

It's just, we've all done
that, but hopefully yeah.

With the awareness of knowing the
attachment styles, well yeah, I'm anxious.

Okay, I'm going to sit with this
anxiety and I'm not going to project

my anxiousness onto this other person.

I'm going to work on that myself
and find something else to do

and feel good about myself.

And like you said, it comes back to
that self care of, yeah, what do I need?

What am I needing in this moment
that I'm not getting from that

person that I can give to myself?

Sam: And it's not about
10 hours of streamers.

It's about.

The goal we should be striving for,
like, you might have different ways

of measuring this, but like when we've
experienced this feeling of insecurity,

either way, whether it's I'm feeling
smothered or this person won't reassure

me, like whatever it is, this person
won't dole out my dopamine biscuits or

this person's asking too much of me,
whether that's true in reality or not.

Right.

But that's getting triggered.

I can't handle your feelings.

You can't handle my feelings,
whatever that, that's kind

of what it boils down to.

And then you go, okay, I need, I need.

What I'm aiming for here is to be
able to accept that these feelings are

happening for like habituated reasons.

These were adaptive strategies other times

it's not working for me now.

I don't want to keep doing this, but my
primary responsibility right now is not

to try and dismiss this feeling, but I got
to, I try and understand what's happening.

And then the goal I'm shooting for is I
can sit alone with my thoughts that if

I can do that for at least some of every
day, I stand a reasonable chance of being

able to actually partner with somebody,
like, we have that responsibility to

ourselves and to the other before we can
start placing expectations on others.

Am I able to sort of tell more
of an anxious type story because

I've done a whole lot of avoidant.

one of these wonderful people
decided to put a healthy boundary

in place one day with me, like
about, say, the six week mark.

No, not even, like, three weeks in.

And I was already head over heels
with this person, and rightly so.

we were very well bonded.

And then I'd done inconsiderate, I
can't remember what it was, Enough to

be pretty annoying and for that person
to , call me out on it, fair enough.

And read me the riot act,
but , proportionately, it was

like, this made me feel this way,
use the right kind of language.

" And I know you didn't do this on purpose.

You sometimes are unaware of what's
happening for other people, you're

not, know, always tuned into that and.

You couldn't see how much
this was not working for me.

Anyway, I'm going for a run now."

And then she went for a run.

Five minutes later, I'm
completely spiraling and I'm

like, well, that's it then.

That's it then.

It's over.

It's over.

And it's like, just as strong
a feeling as with the first

girlfriend, like, Oh, she likes me.

I gotta go.

You know, it's the, it was the
exact same sick, anxious feeling.

" Oh, I have.

I've deeply wronged this person.

How could they ever
want to be with me now?"

Like, okay, too far, you know?

So it's just, it's just
too far in all cases.

Joe: I mean, I think my anxious
attachment I can't look, I don't wanna

make it a totalizing theory of why
I act in the world, but I will say

my anxious and attachment has pushed
me towards many a preemptive strike.

In the last eight years,

Sam: that's a great way to do it,

Joe: you know, like it's like,
"Hmm, I'm getting out of here,

you know, well, absolutely.

Before this person hurts me in a way
that I won't be able to recover from."

Ali: you self sabotage,

Joe: so this is over.

Sam: Well, start with the statement.

"I won't be able to recover from"
and replace it with, "I will be able

to recover from", and then you won't
have that first part of the problem.

Which is, "I have to now avoid something."

Joe: Yeah, I mean, but you're
describing a dating landscape where

you're picking appropriate people.

I'm just talking about the ones
that have fucked me up in the last

eight years where I picked the wrong
person and ignored every single sign

that they were the wrong person.

Ali: But

you're controlling the outcome by
sabotaging it and, or, yeah, like, and

Joe: Well, no matter what
happens at six months, it's over.

Ali: But you're controlling the outcome.

That's your way of taking back
control in a situation where you feel

anxious and you don't feel in control.

So it's like, okay, well, I
don't like this feeling, so

I'm going to pull the plug now.

So at least you have some sort of
ownership over it and it's managed your

expectations of what is going to happen.

Cause you're like, oh, well we broke up
because I decided to break up with them.

Yeah.

Sam: That's right.

And retaining that feeling of control.

Yeah.

See, what I eventually realized was this
desire to be in control and have the

right answer was actually fucking me up.

Ali: Mm-Hmm.

.
Sam: And I needed to let go of it.

And that the, so

Joe: how anxious or avoidant did you
feel when you decided to get married?

Oh.

Or were you in a secure zone
where you're like, this is heaven?

Sam: Well, it's hard to explain.

When, when I made a proposal of
marriage, I felt secure and like

you'd have to, wouldn't you?

Joe: Yes.

. Well, you wouldn't do it now.

Sam: Now, of course, I was also very
well aware of my own personal history

I didn't have the right language for
it, but I had figured out a couple

of things which was like, okay, I
get really freaked out when I feel

like someone else is counting on me.

Also, I feel like I want to
be able to count on someone.

Hmm, I need to be able to
square this circle somehow.

So I think I sort of had just enough self
awareness to I want a good partner and

I keep seeking it out and I also need
to be a good partner and I had often

quoted an article to various girlfriends.

This article by Keli Goff called
Why You're Not Married and it's

aimed at Women and it's a very kind
of mid 00s sort of think piece.

but there's a great line in there,
which is especially relevant at the

time, but maybe even more so now.

Many men do not want to get married, not
because they're They don't understand

what it means, but precisely because
they understand what it means, they know

that a high commitment and responsibility
and investment is expected from them.

And that is the purpose of
it, that you enter marriage.

In order, you are deliberately
choosing to make a large and sustained

investment in this other person
and the relationship between you.

And it was that it's a, it's a
responsibility and that you're

entering it in front of witnesses.

The gravity of that was horrifying to me.

But I also recognized.

If I want a good partner, I
have to be prepared to do the

work to be a good partner.

And I could not think of any
reason why this person was not

deserving of my commitment.

And if I was being honest with myself,
I'm like, well, no, this person

actually is more deserving of a
commitment than I am, let's face it.

And, uh, it's not like
I'll never do better.

It's like, I don't want to do better.

Like, if I can't be happy with this
person, I can't be happy with anyone.

Joe: Oh, that's so sweet.

Ali: Yeah.

Sam: Oh, thank you, Joe.

Joe: I'm going to use that.

Ali: Oh God, yeah.

Joe: With like five different women.

Sam: Yeah.

Well, as Albert Camus said in the 20
letters towards the end of his life to

different women, you were always the one.

Ali: Oh God.

Oh my God.

You're all

menaces really, like,

Joe: it's just I'm joking!

I'm joking.

Sam: It was a good riff, Joe,
but you have triggered Ali's, uh,

Ali's feeling that men are all
selfish cads at the end of the day.

Joe: Well, Sam's been in the fucking, you
know, trenches of marriage for how long?

Yeah, 13, 14 years.

And what percentage, uh, secure,
what percentage avoidant, what

percentage anxious in that 13 years?

Sam: Oh, shit, yeah, it's about.

It's probably about third,
equal thirds, honestly.

Like, yeah, like there's been
times when I've very much been

pursuing, uh, my wife's approval.

Joe: Right, so the dance doesn't
stop just because you go down

to the chapel or whatever.

Sam: No, that's the day, that's the day
you really commit to doing the dance.

Yeah.

And getting better at it.

Joe: What about you, ali?

In your marriage, did you have a dance?

Or was it just, ah, we're secure, we're
baking fucking sourdough and whatever?

Ali: Um, no, I mean, there were definitely
times, yeah, where I would have felt the

anxiousness and probably the avoidant more
so in that I think a common or feedback

I would say from all my relationships is
that I haven't, yeah, opened up or lent

on them or asked for help in any way.

So that would have been, so yeah,
that hyper independence was very

much still, uh, Thread throughout all
of my relationships, so it's still

there, but I think that's something
I've been so much more conscious of

the last five years and dating and

Joe: I think it can make men
insecure if you're not needy.

Ali: Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, yeah.

It's like, I need nothing from them.

I don't ask anything from them.

And it's like

Sam: Let's, let's, let's de
gender this for a minute.

I think it can be a
problem for any partner.

And any friend or parent for
that matter, if the person is

not turning to you for anything.

Ali: Yeah, it's like, well,

what am I here?

Like, yeah, I want to help you.

Joe: sufficiency is completely, it's
like Fort Knox, you know, you're not

dropping that and you've been given no
reason, especially because things haven't

worked out in previous relationships.

There's nothing telling you
at 40 years old to stop.

It's not about becoming like, yeah,
dependent or giving that up, but it's,

it's learning to be comfortable with
asking for a bit of help or opening up

and leaning on my partner and because
it doesn't feel natural, but it is.

Sam: Start off small.

It's not.

It is.

It's small.

Ask for a cup of tea.

Yeah.

No, I'm serious.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

The cup of tea guy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We've all been there, but can I just
say we haven't dispensed any advice

so far, but this is a really useful
point to like insert some advice.

Joe: Well, I would say heading

towards the conclusion of this.

I haven't been able to get you
to say much about your marriage,

but let's just say Oh, no, no.

I actually want to say more.

Which is fine.

Even in a public sphere, you
have some right to privacy.

Yeah.

But, I think 30 30 30 split of, you
know, between your attachment styles

within your marriage is interesting.

Yeah.

And I guess it makes me reassess, well,
if I can find someone who's got, who tends

towards a secure attachment and start to
soak up some of their secure attachment,

juices, does that mean that one day
I'll be completely securely attached?

Yeah.

And yes, but not find that boring.

Right.

What you're saying is, Oh no, no, no, no.

Sam: The dance will continue.

No.

When I say the dance continues, what
I mean, one of the things I picked

up from, like a podcast about Jung,
was this, the Jungian, so one of the

sort of concepts of marriage, which
was, and, but we, I think you can

work this for a friendship as well.

If it's sustained and committed that
two people hold each other accountable.

And they hold a mirror up to one
another and they, help the other

person, both through love, nurture and
accountability and arguments, all of

those things, uh, to gradually shed
their illusions and to stop clinging

to kind of outdated fantasies and, and
nightmares that aren't serving them.

And to let go of mother father fantasies
and To just slowly, slowly become two

adults who can be there for each other.

Joe: I've had that figure in my
life since, since, I mean, I had my

partner and we had kids and, you know,
that's the person you confide in.

And we did that for eight or nine years.

But since then I've had a figure in
my life who it's a text conversation.

So I would call it a written
correspondence of that person, uh,

like holding up the mirror, sometimes
loving, sometimes It's attacking,

holding up the mirror, holding you to
account, uh, and it's generally been a

female friend who I'm not sleeping with.

At the moment it's Ali, but I'm confident
if Ali, if I piss Ali off enough or she

couples up with someone and disappears
or whatever, one of her many elements

finally kills her I think she'd be

capable of being your friend.

Friend and someone else's
partner at the same time.

I was gonna say, I feel

like I've never been the type to
actually really neglect my friendships.

Yeah, but that's okay.

. No, no.

But what I'm saying

is Yeah.

Yeah.

For whatever reason, there's
been that person in my life.

Sam: You've good at, you've
been good at finding that.

Joe: Yeah.

And I, and hasn't.

Sometimes it's been someone I'm
sleeping with, sometimes it's turned

into someone I'm sleeping with.

It's definitely not going
to happen without me.

Sam: No, it can't be
your partner's job alone.

I think this is an important thing.

Joe: Well, yeah, but I, but I do
feel dependent on that person, but

that's because I need to test reality.

Sure.

Day, most days, because
I'm completely isolated.

Sam: You need to ping the matrix, I know.

Joe: My grip in reality
is shaky, you know?

Oh no, I think it's a firm
grip, but it gets tested.

It's

interesting

how easy it is for me to connect in
with it though, like, in the last week

or two I've started doing something
I haven't ever done, which is walk.

I've just been walking around my
neighborhood, walking along my river,

and that connects me to reality, because
just seeing other people walking,

riding and jogging is enough of reality,
but sitting in my bed at home can be

like a The dark days of COVID and I
don't know what's going on anymore.

And all I've got, the only portal I have
to the world is my phone, which is a scary

place to go.

Sam: So many relationships failed
during COVID, including friendships

and housemates and so on.

But yeah, marital and, you know, intimate
relationships failed in epic numbers.

And people would make jokes like this
was around each other all the time.

Well, yeah, that is part of it.

Absolutely.

But the real issue was people,
So, in a lot of cases, familiarity

and contempt, absolutely true.

But what was often really going wrong
was people were not getting those

other forms of support and outlet that
enabled the relationship to breathe.

To be

Ali: have, yeah, to have that
healthy balance, you're placing all

of that, all of those expectations
and wants and needs on one person.

Sam: Which is anxious type stuff.

Ali: Yeah.

And there's no way

that a partner is, you know,
Able to fulfill all your needs.

Like if they meet like 60 percent of
your things, you're doing really good.

Like that's why it's so important
to foster and nurture those other

relationships and those other attachments
with your friends and through your

work or whatever it is, you know,
family and kids and all that sort of

stuff, because you've got to be able
to draw from many different cups.

If you're just continually
drawing from one person,

yeah,

exactly.

And that, when we were in that forced
isolation of, yeah, with just one person,

there's only so much, yeah, you can.

Draw on absolutely.

Joe: So yeah, it's been a good episode.

I think we should wrap it up But I want
to in terms of what happens next as three

people who roughly understand attachment
styles Sam in the immediate future.

It's probably about trying to go towards
secure attachment within your marriage.

Yes And well with and, and you.

Sam: Well,

no, with myself first,
this is the whole thing.

Say it with me.

I'm a person capable of
initiating, creating, maintaining,

sustaining, secure attachment.

Mm.

I am capable.

I can do the things that create this.

Mm.

And I can.

Find in others that ability
to also, to reciprocate.

So that applies to friendships as well.

Yes.

Yeah.

And, and, you know, employers and,
you know, the people, you're caught,

you're enforced relationships at work.

Colleagues you have to
work on a project with.

There are so many manifestations of this.

and I've realized the equal
importance of all those things.

And obviously, The whole point of marriage
is you are putting that person first

a lot of the time and You need to be
willing to do that to make it work But

it can't be all the time and they're not
gonna be able to put you first all the

time But , I found myself equally going.

" Come on, show me some approval.

Look, I've done all these great things."

Or other times, oh boy, , "you've
got a lot of feelings there.

What do you want me to do
with all of those", right?

And, you know, been on the receiving
end of those responses myself as well.

And also other times where this is
the feeling of security is not always

It's not always epic and entrancing.

It can just be like, it's very simple
and reassuring and ordinary and mundane

and being comfortable with that.

So like, if you're looking for
drama and like powerful feelings

all the time in your intimate
relationships, well, you'll find it.

Joe: You'll find it on the dating app.

And you'll find it, yeah, that's right.

And if you want, you know, that, well,
so called fiery chemistry, but, but,

Sam: but I'm here

to tell you there's plenty of fiery
chemistry and there's also some very

normal mundane sort of moments, which I
absolutely treasure and, I remember when

I first encountered this in an intimate
partner of someone looking at me with

without judgment and feeling that and
then an understanding and accepting

and being able to communicate without
malice and without judgment what I was

doing that was upsetting them without
making me feel like a bad person.

Like what?

It's a really, it's a hard
one to to put boundaries in,

which I really sucked at doing.

I didn't want to put them there and I
didn't want them being put there for me.

I hated all of that.

And just being able to communicate
needs and experiences using simple

statements like I feel that, or I would
love it if, not you never, you always,

like it's just really simple stuff.

The language we use, taking
responsibility for that.

And we can't assume the other person
is doing things to make you feel bad.

, stop making assumptions.

Assume, never assume.

It makes an ass out of you and me.

A person has done a thing.

It's made you feel guilty.

Don't go "you did that to make me feel
guilty" I think that's a huge mistake.

Joe: to me, that's like
you're in the death spiral.

Like I did the couples counselling
and they said, and we started

to practice the, when you do
this, It makes me feel like this.

And we're having these
conversations in the kitchen.

Like when you do this, it makes me feel
like this, you know, how we learn in

couples camp and she'll be like, fuck you.

And it's like, or, or you
can use that same phrase when

you are a fucking asshole.

It makes me feel like, you
know, that's funny though.

So to me, sorry, in my personal
experience, once we got into

using the therapy language in
the couple, we were fucked.

Oh, okay.

No, no.

When we finally broke up.

Sweet relief, I've never had to
talk in an artificial way since, so

the strategy makes sense but maybe

Sam: Can I just say, speaking that way
now feels more natural to me, and now

when I say, it's like, it's like when

Joe: Oh, felt very

imposed

on me.

It

doesn't, it's,

Ali: it's uncomfortable but you, you,
you, the more, it's like with anything,

the more you practice it, the more
you feel comfortable with it, yeah.

It's all that, that's the parallel

Joe: I'd say to do all that stuff,
but it seems very bolted on.

Sam: Put it this way, if I, if I find
myself saying now to anyone, my child,

my partner, you know, Someone I work
with anyone if I find myself saying you

always you never I hate myself like I hear
those words and go yuck That's so unfair.

Yeah, and it doesn't that reflects
poorly on me like apart from being

unfair on the other person and
I don't want to sound unhinged.

Joe: I've become a bit cynical I used
to think everyone should do a lot of

couples counseling before they break
up and now I'm more like just break

up Oh, no, no save the time and money

I think either approach would be okay.

My approach is fine Worst case, you find

yourself at the cinema on
your own, it's not so bad.

Anyway, Ali, uh No, well, that's,

well, that's the whole point.

Sam: You're at the cinema
alone and it's not so bad.

In fact, yeah.

It was all, you should be loving life.

Yeah.

Joe: It was all, because I'll
say, you always could've walked

away because,

Sam: 'cause for all the anxious
attachment, because for all the anxious

attachment stuff I've done and for all
the avoidant I've done, don't lie like.

Oh, I'm suddenly alone, happy days.

Ali: Yeah.

Oh, there's a piece to that.

There's a piece to not triggering your,
any of those responses and emotions.

There is a piece to that.

That's very worth, worth
considering and protecting.

And before you decide to bring someone in
who could potentially disturb that piece.

Joe: So, Ali,

you're out there, you've got
your shingle out on the market.

would, were you into, are you trying
to go towards secure attachment?

Are you, or are you looking for the
most exciting Melbourne fuckboy who's

gonna like, give you like really
intermittent attention, but lavish it

on you and then withdraw it and then

Ali: So I'm gonna, like I would
tell my psychologist, I'm absolutely

looking for a secure attachment.

You know, relationship, which I, I, I
really am, but I would also say I'm human

and do get sucked into occasionally, like

Joe: those anxious, avoidant Melbourne
fuckboys, those little hats they wear.

Yeah.

Ali: And if they're like, you know, six
foot four, it's just, it's all over.

Yeah.

Joe: I try to be that one of those
guys, you know, height makes up

for so many other deficiencies.

Ali: Are they cute or are they just tall?

Joe: Anyway, you didn't
answer the question.

Ali: No, no, I, I, I'm ultimately,
genuinely, genuinely looking for

a secure, healthy relationship.

If I'm going to, this is the thing
that there is a distinct difference.

If I, because I am very protective of my
peace and I am quite happy living in my

mad cat lady era and anyone I'm choosing
to bring in, In a more sustainable,

long term way, it's going to have to
be a stable and secure attachment.

In saying that, am I happy to ruffle
my piece for a couple of weeks for

a fuckboy because he's, you know,
he's quite cute and all that sort of

stuff and I'm having a lot of fun.

Yeah.

Oh, absolutely.

I'm not going to be a hypocrite.

Sam: I must admit, I found it very
refreshing in my early twenties to

encounter, uh, girls who were like
that, who were just, yeah, not at

all, interested in secure attachment.

and mainly interested in fun, and
discovering, wow, gee, this feels quite

different, and it's not triggering
my anxious attachment, it's not

triggering my avoidant attachment, it's
triggering my anxious attachment, and

now I'm pursuing them, and isn't this
interesting, the boot's on the other foot.

So it can be fun just to, like, remind
ourselves of, Especially those of us lucky

enough to have disorganized attachment, we
can experience all kinds of fun feelings.

Ali: And that's the thing, like, yeah, at
the end of the day, it's, it's whoever I'm

choosing to bring in, like I said, it's,
I don't want them disturbing my peace.

It's one thing to have, you know, yeah,
like I said, a couple of days where

you've been fucked around or whatever
versus, you know, a long term healthy

relationship that's going to be secure.

There's that's yeah.

Joe: And Ali,

I do input.

I put all my information into you
and do call you my autistic AI co

pilot, so you know everything about

Ali: Just doing

all the psychological and
emotional labor for Joe, just

Joe: So you know everything about my
dating, do you think I'm capable of

going towards a secure attachment?

Have you seen any signs of, like,
green shoots of like, oh, maybe he'll

actually get off the fucking chaos train?

Sam: Do you try this Joe?

So Ali, I'm going to let you answer
that question, but can I just butt

in first and say, like, for example,
when you send that text message

and don't get the response, right?

So this is one you're going to have to
really work on and just basically just

desensitize yourself to it completely.

But it's all about the perspective
shift, imagine you're in the

theater by yourself watching a
movie I've been in both places.

Woe is me.

My life is at a real
low point here and or.

I'm in there by myself.

I'm having a glorious time.

I'm just loving this.

I'm not worried about what
anyone else thinks about this.

I'm all about it.

, oh, I've texted someone,
they haven't texted me back.

Well, that's one less text conversation
I have to manage right now.

Like it's just, it's
just pure perspective.

Joe: I know what to do if I text
someone and they don't text me back.

I just delete their number.

Oh, well.

So, I mean, there's a difference
between being alone and lonely and it's

being comfortable with being alone and
realizing you're not in fact lonely

in that you have other relationships
that are just as fulfilling and can

give you those other things that you
need and that you're not feeling alone.

You're trying to fill a void and that's,
so to answer your question, I do think you

certainly have the capacity to rationalize
it and understand your behaviors, I

think more so than a lot of other people.

It's not that you don't, but I do think
like a lot of us, you just, those other

feelings You know, with the, the more
volatile, insecure, you know, that is

so intoxicating to you, I think you do
struggle to, to, yeah, to, to, to not

Yeah, I mean, if someone is clean and
sober from substances, the closest I get

to a hit It is some kind of erratic woman.

Sam: And so can I just like just really
focus your mind on the idea that you

can have secure attachment and in fact
you have experienced it many times.

Joe: I can have it, but how do
I not find it crushingly boring?

Sam: So the real objective is.

Figuring out why when it does present
itself, you find reasons to discount it.

So a classic avoidance strategy.

Even though you experience
a lot of the anxious stuff,

why are you checking me back?

. You also do classic, you also do
classic avoidance stuff, which is I do.

Yeah.

Oh, oh, she's this, she's that.

Joe: But what about checking out
after six months every single time?

That's pretty avoidant.

Sam: So,

so what's going on there is.

It, see, I know these two things seem
so different to you and like, well,

like just, they cannot be resolved as
one thing, but it's so clear to me just

sitting at a distance and I'm going
like, it's the same basic thing in both

cases where you're going like, Oh, it
depends on this person and to, and to

text me back and then I'll feel okay.

And then in the other circumstance.

Boo, boring, yuck, I'm out of here.

It's the same thing.

They aren't exciting me.

It's not working for me.

They're not giving me what I need.

So it's, it's just the exact same thing.

So in both cases, you're placing
the locus outside of the self

and that's the first mistake.

One of the things, the analogies
I wanted to draw here between

experiencing secure as Hot and sexy
and experiencing, the avoidant and

the anxious stuff as not that, you
know, as like, Oh, this isn't fun.

It's actually, I actually don't need this
in my life and I don't want this in my

life and I'm moving away from it and I'm
taking responsibility for it, et cetera.

Joe: That's where I should be
right sitting here right now.

Well, I think you are.

Sam: I think you're reaching for it.

The analogy I wanted to make was
with when I started to work out my

body stuff, and it, so for example,
hating my own body for many years.

And, um, being, you know, being very
negative towards it and punishing

it and mistreating it in many
ways and, and then kind of coming

around to a more positive thing.

And then lately encountering
body neutrality and going,

yeah, actually I like that.

That's more ASD.

I'm going to be, I'm going with
body neutrality from now on.

And also figuring out how I felt
about other people's bodies.

And at different times, uh, classic,
I'll admit to having like, Not

the right standards, expecting
the wrong things or unrealistic

things in other people's bodies.

right the way through to, I've really,
I've broken through , I finally had

the revelation, , of just seeing
bodies, of just seeing bodies.

For what they are and it's just kind of
accepting the basic humanity of myself

and of other people It's so liberating and
then you find the sexy in yes the body it

because of the pur it's so hard to explain

Joe: That's the Ram Dass.

Yeah, like treat people like you would
trees like we don't go out the forest and

look at a tree This tree is misshapen.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's got like It's got like,
you know, twisted bowels or whatever.

And we say, what the fuck's
wrong with that tree?

You just go, Oh, look
at the way that's grown.

But there is something,
people like that, right?

Ali: There is something deeply
beautiful about that calm,

stable, secure attachment.

That when you have experienced
it, it is something to strive for.

It is like, like I said, the first
response might be that it's boring, but

actually that boring is, is really lovely.

Like that, that sort of, because you,
yeah, there's a level of intimacy

Joe: Is it kind of like a
chamomile tea compared to a

double espresso or something?

Yeah, something like that.

Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, you,
you take pleasure in what it is.

That's a big adjustment if
you're a double espresso guy.

Yeah.

Okay.

But it can be just as exciting.

Like it's.

Because if you're sitting there
drinking the chamomile tea and

thinking, this isn't a double
espresso, then you're fucking it up.

Like you're doing it all wrong.

You're just like, Oh my
God, this tea is amazing.

Stop thinking about what it isn't.

Tune into what is happening right now.

It sounds like you don't expect me to
go towards the chamomile tea just yet.

No, but it's the wrong metaphor.

It's, it's like, it's a delicious meal.

It's the meal you're having.

Nutritious and balanced.

It's what's happening right now.

So, join the church of
what's happening right now.

So, like, forget about the future plans,
the weekend away, or that nasty thing they

said, or, you know, the shit from China.

Be here now, and, like, this person is a
human being, and they're, it, how amazing

is it to be right here next to this other
human being, and, like, our, like, atoms

are, like, you know, our force fields
are, like, mingled, and It's cosmic.

Like it's like, it's the creating
sacredness and like, and not

going, you are going to meet needs
and I'm going to have needs met.

So it's not that such a tragic
way of contentment that it's a

deep contentment that you feel.

It's like I said, it's a, and it, it.

Play so nicely in with your peace.

And it's a, it's a lovely, yeah, yeah.

It's a lovely feeling.

No trip.

It's a trip.

It's the real adventure begins when,
'cause you are mistaking like all the

drama for the actual meat and potatoes.

Yeah.

But the actual drama, the actual
adventure is the person itself and

what's happening between the two.

It's, it's not, it's not big city.

Transactional, intense sex, an act of
communion, and going towards the oneness

out of the illusion of the separate self.

And that's the real issue, it's like
I can do that on my own, see Yeah,

haha, you're very good at this.

I think that Ali thinks that I she has a
lot of evidence because I say I'm sitting

here on my own and I'm spiraling and
I'm bored and I don't know what to do.

Yeah.

But what she doesn't say is when I
spend Half an hour with my man, Henry

Schuchman, seeing through the illusion
of the separate self, sitting on that

same bed, going through a step by
step process where finally I fully let

go of this self, this Joe illusion.

That's my oneness, but the oneness
that people experience is oneness

with one other person, gets you a
lot closer to the oneness that is

reality, loving awareness, yeah.

Yes.

Then complete separation.

Well, exactly.

Loving awareness of what?

And being, experiencing the loving
awareness of the other, which

really used to freak me out.

And also it's like, I'm 44.

Can I go towards something
that's just a bit quieter?

Well, yeah, but also it can be so, but
it also tunes you into a different world.

You know, like quantum foam, right?

You know, the bubbles in the gravity.

It's like that when, when you really
zoomed in the level, it's like when

I'd be stoned and I'd be practically
hallucinating, like the level of detail

in reality was just like overwhelming.

And so when you're really tuned in to
like other human beings, you see one

of the signs of attachment disorder
is you are really, really getting too

much data from like the other, what's
happening with the other person now.

But this also can be intoxicating and fun.

Mm-Hmm.

. but so in, in that more normal se or that
healthy, secure situation where you've,

you've got the communion going on and
there's all this texture and subtlety in

it, and it's like, it's still delicious.

Like that's, I think
that's a great place to

end it.

Yeah.

Thank you.

I hope it's been illuminating
for the audience.

Yes.

I've learned things.

Yeah.

I'll give a shout out to Dr.

Morgan's podcast, Let's Get
Vulnerable, which is about attachment.

I was going to mention this earlier,
Ali, Joe telling us that you're Fort

Knox and you've got your security,
through, complete and utter independence.

So Dr.

Morgan has, you know,
says it over and over.

So the answer here is
let's get vulnerable.

So, but we have to get vulnerable in
a way that's safe and appropriate.

And so it's like baby steps and
just going, okay, I'm just going to

create a very slight vulnerability
here and see what happens with that.

And you know, and eventually we can
go the full Monty and actually stand

there and be seen for who we are.

Yeah.

Yeah.

All right.

I'll see you next week, guys.

See you next week.

See

ya.