The Ten Thousand Things

Joe: There's reality,
which is loving awareness,

Sam: unconcerned by the arising
and passing away of phenomena.

Ali: And then there are the 10, 000

things.

Sam: Hello and welcome
to The 10, 000 Things.

My name is Sam Ellis.

I'm Joe Loh.

And

Ali: I'm Ali

Joe: Catramados.

Today in the show, a long time listener,
Bron, sent us a request which was

to listen to a podcast, a discussion
between Mia Freeman and Catlin Moran.

They were talking about boys and
men in the wake of feminism and

"Are the blokes okay" is the topic
today, Ali, do you want to explain

a little bit more some of the ideas?

We were a bit cringe about the
Mamma Mia podcast, but maybe

we're not the target audience.

Ali: yeah, so it was an interview
for Catelyn Moran's new book, What

About Boys, I think was the title,
and and she's obviously written

some fantastic, you know, feminist
literature over the years, and I think

what she's really just exploring.

I mean, this is not without, I mean,
it's been critiqued quite heavily in

the, the news, her, her take as being
simplistic, but fundamentally what

she's arguing is everyone is a victim
of the patriarchy, both men and women.

And historically, the only tools we've had
to fight the patriarchy has been feminism,

but that has been to the exclusion of men.

And what tools can men use to fight the
patriarchy that they can identify with?

Yeah.

Sam: Yeah.

And how can we make sure that the...

generation of boys coming through now
who don't have the context, who don't

understand what life was like even for
relatively well to do women in the 50s

or what was life was like before that and
of course even the more recent history

you know what was possible and okay in
the 90s and noughties and how much that's

changed and they sort of live in a world
where it is just expected That women

would be treated with the same respect
that they would expect, for themselves.

but they are mainly, what Caitlin seems
to be saying is they're mainly hearing the

message, go girls, go girls, go girls, all
the time, and girls propping each other

up all the time, which you want to see.

But they're not feeling like they're
getting any propping up and yeah,

Ali: she had this really good example
of where you know on social media You

you know a woman will post a photo
and all of her girlfriends are like,

Pumping her up and saying like, " Oh, you
look great" and it's such an inclusive

way now that it's not just restricted
to looking a certain way You can be

curvier and post that photo or you can
have darker skin and post that photo

and you've got women championing you.

And what, what do men do?

We don't do that for like, you know,
cause the perceived, if you're pumping

up another man, it's perceived to
be either feminine or gay, which is

Sam: horrible.

And the normal thing among blokes,
Joe, is you show love by hanging shit.

Yeah.

Joe: Yeah.

We've discussed that
in an earlier episode.

we discussed it in an
early episode in youth.

I remember talking about.

Getting quite upset with Because

Sam: I was sensitive.

Sammy, episode nine or thereabouts.

Yeah.

Yeah.

'cause I, I

Joe: mean, I was brought up in a tough
school of getting a lot of shit hung on

me by my parents and giving a lot of shit
back and then going out into the world.

But also your mates did it too.

Yeah.

But let's not get too
sidetracked the, the.

The example she used was, imagine an
overweight boy of 13 or something,

and he just goes, fuck it.

And posts a photo of himself
in his bathers at the pool.

Yeah.

Now would that, yeah.

Now, if he was a woman or a girl,
potentially, maybe teenage girls aren't as

supportive as women in their forties, Ali.

Yeah, true.

That's true.

But potentially they'd be like, you look
great, you look amazing, blah, blah, blah.

But, but that boy would
be ridiculed, you know?

Yeah.

or shamed or I look.

Like, I post photos of myself on
Instagram and I get a bit cringe about

it myself, like I certainly don't get
comment after comment saying how great I

look, uh, it's just like a self obsessed
thing that I do, uh, it doesn't matter.

Yeah, I don't know.

It doesn't lead to a lot of pumping up
and love and all that kind of stuff.

I mean, is your experience, Ali, with
social media that you do get that

kind of pumping up from the girls?

Absolutely.

Sam: And Ali, just before you answer
that, I just want to hasten to add,

for anyone who's not familiar with
Caitlin Moran's work or this latest

book or the podcast interview she just
did with Mia Friedman on the Mamma Mia

Network, um, recommend you listen to
it to make more sense of this episode,

by the way, and we'll link to it.

But...

I just want to point out, they're
not just saying boys don't

get support on social media.

There's a whole, there's a larger thesis,
but yeah, go on, answer Joe's question.

Ali: Well, in social media, yeah,
like, I mean, there's usually a bit

of attention from, in more recent
years, I will qualify, from men.

You know, you get like them sliding to
your DMs with just little fire emoji or

whatever and you're like, yeah, cool.

And then, but, but absolutely the vast
majority of any photo I've ever posted.

The support has been from other women
and they're like, you look amazing.

Or you're looking so happy or like,
they're genuinely happy for you.

And I do absolutely the same
with my girlfriends too.

And I see them happy or they've
posted a fabulous photo.

They just, you know, absolutely.

It's all love.

,
Sam: and that's largely the appropriate
thing, you know, you and I, Joe,

we're not going to rush in to comment
publicly on, on a woman's, um, Selfie.

Joe: Oh, I might do what Ali said,
like the thirsty dads at Ali's school

and like slide in and make a comment
and have some angle, you know.

Ali: And that's because that's the thing.

If you, I had, I would have
absolutely no issue telling my

friend that she's hot and she's this.

But even if she's married right, but if
you are yeah publicly commenting Oh my

god, you look so hot on someone else's
wife or like or husband like yeah It is

why is that perceived to be different?

Why?

Yeah,

Joe: but yeah, like I think what Sam
said it wasn't An interview about

social media, that's just one example.

It's the visibility of it
that makes it so important.

Zooming out to the whole thing,
like what are the, what are the

power dynamics between men and
women, where have we ended up to?

I found the thing, the interview
a bit condescending because by the

end they were talking about men as
if they're like quaint little pets,

like, it wasn't, isn't it cute?

They have little things that they
talk about and, and I've tried to

think about, are men all right?

Are boys all right?

What are, what are they into?

Sam: It's funny to get.

It's funny to get stoned and um,
uh, look at, look at my husband's

balls and just admire how strange
and odd and just validate them

and I'm like, that's kind of nice.

It was a mixture of ... That slightly
condescending, but there was a

certain intimacy and respect in it.

Yeah, I didn't mind it, but it was
odd to get a pat on the head as a

Joe: bloke, it felt like.

50ish year old feminists.

Yeah, there's a very...

They've reached a point of feminism...

They're both very successful.

Sure, being feminists.

And they've reached a point of
feminism where they basically look in

a condescending way at men as like poor
creatures with no idea in the world.

Ali: I don't know that, because ... I
can't say I'm Mia Friedman's

biggest fan, but, but she was,

her take was similar to mine in that
she's got a boy the same age as I do.

And like the, while it's different.

In the context of say, you know, a
man that you're dating or that you're

married to, it's what are we doing with
our boys, how are they going to cope,

and I think that was primarily like,
what am I doing for my son that I'm

not doing, you know, although I'm not
doing for my son, that I'm doing for my

daughter, or why does my son feel this
way, but my, my daughter doesn't, and

that Certainly what I took from that in
that, you know, I have a boy this age

who is sensitive to these things and, you
know, and the impact that it has on him.

And I actually did talk to him
about it afterwards and, you know,

and got his take and yeah, it's,
it's really interesting like that.

Yeah, I don't, I don't
think it's necessarily.

Yeah, just poor men.

These are people we love and care about,
not just as partners, but as children.

So,

Joe: so imagine if you had a movement
called feminism to respond to incredible

entrenched misogyny and sexism, but
then you had a generation come through

after some of the biggest wins in
feminism, so people under the age of 20.

As Sam said before, imagine if you didn't
see the Chico roll, Chico roll commercials

in the 80s in the fish and chip shop
and women sexualized in that way, not

in a positive way, just as objects

Sam: for men.

Or, or, or female teachers in
the 70s striking for equal pay.

Like it's so, it's so recent.

It's quite, yeah.

But on another level, that's ancient

Joe: history.

If you have no lived experience of that,
and all you see is this girl power stuff.

Yeah.

It seems ridiculous on the
face of it to respond to that.

with some kind of like, men ism or
something, response to feminism.

I don't think we need that.

and I do wonder, like,

men still have the things that they're
into, like sport and ways to show courage

and bravery and violence and there's a
whole lot of stuff that maybe Catlin and

Mia don't see that I can see as a man.

When I look at younger,
I'll give you an example.

I was down in Port Melbourne yesterday,
just cruising around for a walk, and

these two young teenage boys came down
and it's freezing cold, this freezing

cold wind, and they whipped their shirts
off, and put some shorts on, and just

jumped off the pier into the freezing
cold water, and they got back up, and

I was like, How's the water, boys?

They're like, Oh yeah, it was good,
we're gonna go for a swim in the freezing

cold water, and I, I looked at them
and I thought, That's the kind of shit

that teenage boys are doing, like...

They're maybe not posting it
on social media, but there's a

lot of rites of passage stuff
that you understand as a man.

That I think is probably still happening,
but it might not just be happening in the

gaze of a 50 year old feminist, right?

Ali: Yes, it's possible, but like, I
mean, they sort of, they did touch on,

Oh, men are still the beneficiaries
of the patriarchy while they're

simultaneously also victims of it.

So they do have a certain
amount of privilege.

Like you said, it's the
world's tiniest violin.

How can you feel sorry for, you know,
People who are benefiting from this

system, but they're also simultaneously
acknowledging that there are parts of

it that are negatively affecting them.

And we need tools to fight those things.

Sam: That's yeah, that's right.

And Caitlin's not just making, I mean,
look, my number one criticism of the

book, um, not having read it, but just
based on what she's saying that the

central element of the thesis is the
critique is operating at the level of

discourse, mainly, but she does quote
statistics about how men and boys, um,

fare more poorly in certain areas and
the statistics are like quite Persuasive,

when you set them out a certain way,
and I'm not saying I doubt that case.

Like, uh,

Joe: university degrees, uh,

Ali: victims of violence,

Sam: suicide rates,

Joe: incarceration, suicide.

Yeah, that's good.

That's concrete stuff.

I think that's, I think we should
try and get into a bit of the

meat of that a bit as well.

Sam: And there's another one which
she didn't quote because it does

vary a lot between countries, but
workforce participation for men

is now lower than it is for women.

Yeah, and that is a very serious...

So

Joe: can we declare victory
for feminism at this

Sam: point?

Uh, no, because, yeah, but, but

Joe: it's...

Men still tend to control boardrooms.

Yes.

Political positions and control.

The gender pay gap is very real.

Pretty much control
all the weapons of mass

Sam: destruction in the world.

This is why I was, I was disappointed
that Caitlin mainly focused at...

The level of doing a discourse
analysis, and she's basically saying

the discourse has been a bit one sided
and it has produced a reactionary

politics, uh, at the level of
discourse, and maybe also it's...

Sorry, can

Joe: you define discourse?

I don't really know what you mean.

Okay, so Marxists

Sam: are more interested in
economics and who owns what

and class and all that stuff,

and if we do an analysis of,
gender in terms of wealth...

What are we going to find, and
it's going to vary a lot by age

and by country and the rest of it.

So that's the main thing.

If we're talking seriously about equality,
that's the stuff a Marxist would tend

to say we should be looking at, and we
should be looking at life expectancy,

and we should be looking at physical,
concrete measures, discourse analysis

is looking at what people are saying.

And so in cultural studies at uni, I
learned how to do discourse analysis.

I did a literature major, so I learned
how to analyze books for their ideological

and artistic content, and then criticize
that according to various criteria.

And in cultural studies I learned
things like psychoanalysis, and how

to talk about architecture, and space,
and gender, and how to talk about

relations of power within discourse.

But then in anthropology I learned...

more bread and butter stuff as well,
like economics and family systems.

And so I learned a whole
bunch of tools of analysis.

So I'm at a bit of an advantage relative
to Caitlyn Moran, who's I mean, she's

a professional comedian and writer.

Yeah.

Um, and she's, she dropped outta school

Ali: at like 13 to, I wrote a novel and
then went working for, uh, that's right.

Nme, like, yeah.

She, yeah.

Yeah.

She,

Sam: so I would write writer, I would
write a slightly different book,

but I, I still think her book's a
reasonable contribution to make.

And she's come at it from a very
personal angle, which is just to

notice that the way boys and girls
are talked about is so very different.

And I think that is a
useful unit of analysis.

The discourse on gender is very
visible and audible at the moment.

So that's a good place to start.

But it's possible to lose track of a
couple of things, which is some of the

advantage that some men still greatly
possess, but a growing number...

An increasingly large cohort of men that
are economically disadvantaged, and so

that's getting lost in the conversation.

And so, yes, there are still more
men in the top, but it's a curve.

The way that the highest advantage and
highest disadvantage is distributed

on a number of measures, including
income, wealth, and career performance

and educational performance and just
raw intellect, you get more men in

the high end and more men in the
low end, and the curve for, women.

Quote unquote is a bit flatter.

So basically it's got a higher middle.

Yeah, but in pure

Joe: economic terms there is
a gender pay gap still, right?

Yes.

In most countries.

Sam: Yes, but you have to
break it down by occupation.

And yeah, like so it
gets incredibly complex.

Joe: Why?

Why can't you just give
me a simple number?

Sam: Because it's not illustrative of
what's going on in every workplace.

I just want

Joe: simple numbers, Sam.

Well, the problem

Ali: is, like, that you talk about
careers that women have traditionally

gravitated towards and those
being underpaid industries, which

Sam: skews the data.

Or, women enter an industry...

And then pay rates within
that industry decline.

Ali: Or they take time out from work
to have babies so that they pay stalls.

Or they work part time to be a caregiver.

But when

Sam: we talk about the gender
pay gap, we have to include

a couple of invisible things.

Capitalism only, cares about money, right?

And we only measure things
in relation to money.

And so, what happens when...

You fail to acknowledge the growing
number of men that are not making

it into the workforce at all.

So then that puts the gender pay
gap in a slightly different light.

So if you bring the men that
are earning zero money into the

equation, how does it change?

And obviously you'd have to bring
the women that are earning zero

money into the equation as well.

And now in Australia, that's
going to be different to India.

And that's going to be
different to South America.

So the global picture is going to
end up being very, very complicated.

So what inevitably happens is the
media class full of white middle

class people for the most part tend
to focus on what is visible to them.

And it's, they're going to
leave out the economic side.

Which is

Joe: basically what's on Twitter,

Sam: what's on Instagram,
what's on Twitter, what's

Joe: in the papers.

Okay.

So can we agree?

I was being facetious before.

But feminism...

is, has, still has gains to make
and it's an unstoppable force.

Barbie just grossed a million dollars,
like, Ali and her all their mates are

bigging each other up and they got each
other's backs, like, I'm a bit terrified

about my teenage daughter and her and her
relationships and whether they have each

other's backs and the stats would say they
don't and they're undermining each other

in this horrible depression and blah blah
blah, but the stats go this way and that.

Whatever, but the vibe, and I think what
Catlin is talking about is basically just

the vibe, you would call it the discourse.

The vibe is that boys and men, like
I said, by the end of the discussion,

it's like, aren't men quaint?

There was a degree

Ali: of that.

There was a little bit of that.

But I, I, like, she primarily came
from, because she is a feminist

writer and had written how to
be a woman and how to be a that.

Yeah.

And so, you know, and when she was
going on tours for her book tours and

stuff and realizing, you know, when
she was talking not just at girls

schools and in front of women, but
like in front of boys as well, that,

yeah, there was this discourse where.

You know, what about boys?

And that's how it's come about.

So but...

She's responding

Sam: to the response.

Joe: Yeah.

Basically.

I think it's, there's some onus on
people, me and Sam's age, actually, to

provide an alternative that's not Andrew

Sam: Tate.

No, it's really true, Jo.

And I've, there's a dad who's reached
out to me recently, and he said...

I really feel like people like you and me
need to start posting videos on YouTube,

like not just to make money, like not
to do that at all as a public service,

like who's my son going to look up to?

Yeah.

And like, it can't come from me.

Like I need you to say something on there
that I can say here, watch what Sam has

to say about all this And he's concerned
about the messages they're picking up

and the lack of alternative voices.

Ali: Well, that's the thing, yeah, like
it's a bit of a vacuum at the moment and

like that's where these, yeah, the Taits
and Jordan Petersons are all stepping

in and rather than having, yeah, like
really visible, positive, Pictures of

masculinity and what that can look like.

Joe: Yeah, I think it becomes
about what's forbidden too.

Yes.

Because you're always
going to want to rebel.

Yes.

So, I'll tell you my little
Jordan Peterson story.

Maybe five or six years ago, and
Sam would say, remember that I am

economically fragile, paying child
support, like a couple of, you

know, like I'm kind of on the edge
all the time of financial disaster.

Sam: Yeah, no, you're very
much in the precarious.

Joe: Plus, I'm a straight white guy,
pretty straight down the line, standard

issue, straight white guy, right?

So just remember that as context,
and then a guy who you are

Sam: prime candidate for, uh,
masculinist, fascist discourse.

Sure, just setting up the

Joe: context, but like, prime candidate
for some of this alt right stuff, right?

Very much.

Even though I was raised very
strict socialist, hard left.

Sam: Well who's, who do you think is
voting for, what's her name in France?

It's all the old union
dudes that have all gotten

Joe: shafted by Macron.

this story can be illustrative of
how this stuff maybe works in a

slightly older demographic than teams.

Marine Le Pen, yeah.

Because I've never seen an Andrew
Tate video, I really don't want

to be forced to go and watch one.

I've read a little bit about

Sam: it.

No, don't pollute your brain with that,

Joe: seriously.

I don't, I don't really want
to know, like I don't...

It's yuck.

hate women, and I don't want to...

You know, say women are
responsible for rape.

So that stuff's just way out of
bounds and I'm not interested.

It sounds upsetting that teenage
boys seem to be interested, but what

I'm trying to explain is maybe where
some of this reaction comes from and

this wanting to transgress, right?

Yeah, sure.

So this actor guy I work with
in the film industry, he...

Said to me this is before Jordan
Peterson was really very famous.

He just had his book out 12 rules for
life He said I've been reading this guy.

I found him really helpful for my
life And he's someone again straight

white guy who was working with me as
just a crew guy But probably ideally

wanted to be a famous actor, right?

So probably a bit frustrated in life
himself and he since and I didn't know who

he was and I just started reading his book
and And the book, if you ever read it, is

pretty uncontroversial, really, like, it's

Sam: Yeah, he's not
getting stuck into women.

Joe: It's just like, make your bed.

I saw it described as,
like, advice to mum.

That's right, stand up straight.

Yeah.

Put your shoulders back, make your bed,
there's other stuff in there, but it's,

there's nothing too alarming in there.

Then I could jump on my GripChat
with my old friends from, um...

I've had since, you know, undergrad, uni
days and I said I started reading this

Jordan Peterson book and straight away
one of them just attacks me like viciously

like that's sexist, racist, misogynistic,
homophobic and I'm like It's actually not.

And then what happens is it drives
me to be like, hang on, hang on, what

the fuck, I can't read a book now?

There's a book I can't

Sam: read?

Also, they haven't, they
haven't read it at that point.

They have

Joe: no idea, like, they have no idea what

Ali: they're responding to the other

Joe: stuff that he's all these...

These things.

Sam: But they're also responding
to a genuine alarm and like a

growing number of reports of like
him doing these sellout live shows

like fairly early after the book.

Yeah, and after that, whatever, in the
And the audience at his shows were not.

It wasn't entirely men at first.

There were loads of women who were on
board with the message and were actually

recommending the book to their sons and,
you know, male colleagues and so on.

Joe: Yeah, because if you go on, at
that point, if you went onto YouTube,

you go back and watch his, his lectures
on psychology, they're brilliant.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's like, it's like 200
hours on YouTube of him talking

about, PRJ and, and all that.

That's right.

Like the history of psychology.

He wasn't that shit.

And in a way that kind of...

Hurts your brain as it opens it up.

It's really good shit.

Right?

And then he, he got, he became,
as you've talked about before,

he started to become what his
audience seemed to want him to be.

He started

Sam: responding to part of the largest

Joe: part of his, but that was a
turning point in my life where I

was like, oh shit, what do I do?

Do I stop reading this book?

And I, instead, I thought, well, fuck you.

Like fuck, you should
telling me not to read this.

Because I was somewhat looking, my
dad had been dead for 20 years, I

didn't have anyone telling me how
to be a man, and Jordan Peterson...

Is mostly writing for men saying this
is how you be a man and it gets mocked

with like make your bed and throw
your shoulders back and walk tall.

You know what's a good thing to do?

Make your bed, throw your
shoulders back, walk tall.

Like that's actually really good advice.

And for sure.

If you haven't cleaned your room in
six months, clean your fucking room.

Have some self

Sam: respect.

Have some self respect, yeah.

Take responsibility.

Joe: The problem, Sam,
of course, is you take...

Uh, have some self respect a bit further
and it's like become a fascist, right?

And you only have to
turn the knob a little

Ali: bit.

So, like, my psychologist would say,
like, that even the worst people

sometimes are capable of good things.

And...

The thing is, we're so quick to throw
the baby out with the bathwater, but

he, yeah, he can still have a few
good and, like I said, practical ideas

that, you know, people will see value
in and actually find really helpful.

But it's also worth acknowledging that
all these other things that he said, like

catering to this particular demographic
or this, you know, subsection of his

audience, that Yeah, have some deeply
problematic views around women, and

that's, and like, yes, some people
actually have quite dangerous ideas

around women, and that's, you know,
obviously more like the Andrew Tate's.

Joe: Yeah, and there's
been like incel terrorists

Sam: and stuff, right?

Yeah, so obviously some of, yeah, that's
right, this is all unfolding, we have

to remember, this is all unfolding in
the context of, you know, yeah, the

extremist incel, you know, inciting
each other to commit violence and so

on, so we have to keep all that in
mind, that of a kind of early stage.

terrorist movement and that's happening
alongside a number of other sort of very

major debates including the definition
of gender and you know all of that stuff

so the general fear and uncertainty and
a flux going on in the discourse as well

as in legislation and you know of course
marriage legislation and also it's a

whole pot of stuff that's all going on
at the same time and Peterson comes into

the middle of that but also Obviously,
some of his audience were looking for,

including women, who read his books early
on with, and weren't alarmed, necessarily,

um, were looking for something that
was missing in the popular market.

Now, you can find decent books
about how to navigate world as a...

Guy, as a person with a penis, right?

they've been around for a long time,
but this was the one that captured the

imagination of a lot of people, and
clearly some of the people who read it

just needed a little bit of a pick me up.

And some of the other
people who read it...

need a lot of therapy and have deep seated
resentment towards essentially towards

their mother and towards women at large
based on a sense of powerlessness, right?

So this takes us back to Caitlin Moran.

And that's what she's saying, that a
lot of these boys are feeling powerless

and they're feeling despised even.

And I couldn't put my
finger on, so, so Joe...

But

Joe: that's why it's back on us,
Sam, because it's the condescending

place that Mia and Kaitlyn
are coming from doesn't help.

It doesn't help boys.

There's, there's nothing for a 15
year old boy really in that podcast.

Oh no, see, I'll...

Whereas, whereas we have a
chance as men to actually be

like, well, like, we like women.

We're attracted to women.

We're friends with women.

Okay.

We sleep with women.

We have children with women.

This is how we approach respecting women,
and this is how we approach being a man.

Now, we're not getting it right all the
time, of course, but I think there is...

Ali: There's still a place, though,
for women to raise the issue, as

far as, in the context not just of,
yeah, being the partners, but also

like the mothers of these boys.

I think it's, you know, they're
well within their rights to say...

You know, these are people
we care about that we're, and

Joe: I mean, these are feminists
who are actually worrying about

the problem of men and boys.

I would put it to you that most
feminists aren't very concerned with

the problems of men and boys at all.

And Caitlyn certainly
has had a lot of the end.

Aww.

Sam: Yeah, yeah, look, I mean, look, there
were, there were elements of the, look,

elements of the, I think, I've got some
stylistic critique, as does, um, Ali.

Yeah, listen,

Joe: I mean, let's look
at, most people want...

Listen to that podcast.

So it's the ideas we

Sam: need to focus on.

I'll give them both a pass on this
conversation because despite like a couple

of little gripes I have, the essential
thesis is like we can uphold that and

we can declare it to be somewhat useful.

And I think also I think it's absolutely
critical that this opening salvo in what

will be a long ongoing conversation that
was already happening in an unhealthy

way, what Caitlin Moran is saying.

Let's continue the conversation in
a healthier way, and I absolutely

welcome that with both arms.

And it's essential that it comes from a
woman who has such a strong track record,

promoting the interests of women and
girls, to now be publishing this book.

And it has been viewed as a
betrayal by some, some people

have called it a cynical...

Sell out and you know, she's gonna,
she's gonna immediately tack right and

turn into some kind of guru or whatever.

I don't believe any of that.

She's just speaking with

Joe: It's not even left right.

It's this No.

Like you said, it's just
cultural what's on Twitter.

It's not even left right.

It's just like, what's the vibe?

What's in the culture?

She even says

Sam: it in the podcast, there
are some easy things we can do.

Well, she talks about role models, right?

She says, we don't even, she
even says, we don't even have

to do this through politics.

We can just do this through culture.

And that was very, very revealing.

This is not a radical platform at all.

They are just suggesting a
slight change to the discourse.

They don't want to
actually do anything more

Joe: radical than that.

Like, if I, I had to think about
this, like, what are the male role

models now, if I wanted to give.

A 15 year old boy, a male role model.

I would probably actually point to
someone like Pat Cummins, captain of the

Australian Test cricket team, not only
because he's an amazing cricketer and a

handsome blue eyed boy, but he's also very
like outspoken on climate change, he's

Ali: Yeah, but what about, yeah,
like as Sam said, the boys who have

Joe: absolutely no interest in Sure, but
what about the boys who do play sport?

Sam: Or David, or David
Pocock for that matter.

But, but

Joe: hang on, doing a bit
of what they did, what about

the boys who do like cricket?

Can they have role models?

Of course.

Then I thought about who is Sam's
role models, for example, and

the one person you've mentioned
to me actually is Bill Burr.

And I meet a lot of older guys who
really look up to Bill Burr because the

work he's been doing is like looking at
some of the contradictions of feminism

and it's like alright you gotta put
up with all this stuff guys because

that's where we're at and it's bullshit
and women will get away with all this

stuff because men want to fuck them and
let's acknowledge that and there's some

of those risque conversations right?

Yeah.

I don't know if I look up to Bill Burr,
but I, like, who would you say are your

role models, or who would you be pointing
your son in the direction of in five years

Sam: time?

So I haven't been listening to Bill for
a few years now, but I'll say that he's

very, very good on, he's got a lot of
female listeners, his shows are half half,

he's got listeners from every demographic
basically, and he does well in so called

red states and so called blue states,
that's one of the things I like about him.

And He really triangulates a lot of stuff.

To me, he's a bellwether.

He's very good on the
contradictions of capitalism.

He's very good on the
contradictions of basically good

old fashioned American bullshit.

Everyone's got opportunity.

He's like, he's very good on
critiquing the banks and Wall Street.

He's very good.

on the contradictions of the
current gender discourse.

Yeah, he has

Ali: a good nuance, it's
a nuanced take, which is

Sam: rare.

And basically he upsets white middle class
women, and black women applaud him, so...

I like that.

Now, I'll say, I hate to

Joe: see you happy, Sam, but I
hate it when you got something

that's just your own thing.

That's right.

But the thing that Bill really,
I hate it when you have a

Sam: podcast, they hate it when you've
got a thing that you're just enjoying

doing and it's nothing to do with them.

Yeah, that's right.

Um, so Bill,

Joe: Bill, I can't say that.

No, Bill can say that.

I'd be

Sam: scared to say that.

But if I had a wife,
you know, that's true.

That's true.

And you should be, but
he, but he makes a point.

He makes a lot of good points.

Uh, and he acknowledges
the failings that men have.

Right.

But the best thing on his podcast
was the agony art section he does on

the, on the Thursday show, I think,
where he'll answer an email, uh, or

maybe even a few from women that are
in pain, from men that are in pain.

And he just, Oh, I'm feeling I'm a
little choked up just remembering

some of the stories and handling
them with great sensitivity and

balance and like compassion and,
but also firmness and calling men

and women out on their nonsense.

And they're basically, you could say
that he operates quite well as a.

sort of pop as a therapist really,
like calling people out on their

limiting beliefs and the things that
are causing them to get stuck in anger

and that's, and, and in victimhood.

And so he's really good at that stuff.

So what he helped me with was a couple
of things moving away from booze slowly.

And the other thing he helped me with was,
just accepting that in modern marriage.

It is a bit uneven and strange in all
kinds of ways and that there's, there's

give and there's take and it doesn't
always make sense and you're just

gonna have to, you know, and he gives
countless examples of like, his wife

will just fling him errands without
a second thought and he flings her an

errand one day and she's like, excuse me?

Yeah, yeah.

He just does, like one.

Yeah.

And he said, and you know, I make
Nia a sandwich like every day,

like I do the cooking and cleaning
because it's beneath her pay grade.

But hey, she's doing a
lot of other great stuff.

And then one day she made me a sandwich
and I realized it had been two years

since she made a sandwich and I sat
there and I just cried like a baby.

Joe: Yeah, and I think that's actually
a much more interesting discussion

than the one they were having on
that podcast because it actually

puts women in the frame a little
bit like, are you guys maybe getting

some of this a little bit wrong?

God, you can't say that because
women are fucking perfect.

Sam: That's right.

Well, and so I think that
there's a, there's a, I should

Joe: probably let Ali speak.

Ali: Yeah, yeah,

Sam: yeah.

Well, there's, I think
there's a patronizing.

He has

Joe: that joke about like,
I make all these mistakes,

but clearly my wife is just.

Preserved, you know, behind
glass as the perfect human

who never gets anything wrong.

And yeah, God, that I can relate
to that from having partners.

It's like, what's this
double standard here where

Ali: I get pummeled for
everything I get wrong.

Putting women up on a pedestal
and then being patriarchy, right?

Yeah, exactly.

Because we're imperfect creatures.

We're all imperfect to
be imperfect is human.

Yeah, we don't get it right all the time.

Sometimes women and, you know, even
like watching, you know, the news

this week and watching some really
famous women who've utterly fucked up.

And...

Are you talking about Lizzo?

Yeah.

And it's...

Did she do it?

I don't know.

I don't know.

But it's, it's, it's, that's,
it'd be heartbreaking if she did.

And, but that, but that's the thing.

You see, like, yeah, people
make mistakes and, and being

perfect and similarly with men.

And I just, yeah, we, we...

It's actually finding that sweet spot
of being able to call, gently call

each other out on that, but also within
the context of why are we doing that?

Why, you know, what can we do better?

Joe: So you don't want
to be on a pedestal?

Come on, you love it up there.

I've never been on one, I don't
even know what the views like.

No, you know

Ali: what, it's actually, it's exhausting.

When someone's got this like,
perception of you that's, you know,

a projection of their fantasy,
and it is absolutely impossible to

live up to, and It might feel nice

Sam: here and there, but ultimately
it gets you on the back end.

It

Ali: absolutely does.

And so there's no room to make a mistake.

There's no room to, to fuck up and yeah,
like I said, we all fuck up and I've

certainly been in that position before.

And you

Sam: better keep up with the hair
removal if you want to keep up

Ali: with the goddess thing.

Like, you know, and there's like, speaking
about the Barbie, like, you know, that,

um, America Ferrera's, uh, you know,
monologue, which has got, you know, which,

you know, it's talking about, you know.

All of the things we're expected
to be all the time and being on

that pedestal is actually really
fucking hard and exhausting.

Yes.

Yeah.

Joe: We'll save that
for our Barbie episode.

Once Sam does, I think we will genuinely
do a Barbie episode because I think

I actually need to re watch that
film because what I need you to woman

splain to me, Ali, is how do I suffer
or not benefit from the patriarchy?

Because I just thought as a straight
white guy, it was a pretty square deal

and, uh, I was benefiting and I just
had to make some noises about, oh, I

feel terrible about this, but yes, I'll
take that job, or yes, I'll take that

pay rate, or, you know, I just had to
play along with like, oh yeah, it is

terrible, um, I hope you fix it one day,
meanwhile, I'm going to take advantage

of it, right, but you're telling me that
I suffer as a man from the patriarchy,

and Barbie seemed to be basically,
let's not get sidetracked with Barbie

just yet, but it did seem to be a film
about how men suffer in the patriarchy.

Yeah.

And I thought, I still don't understand.

I would not be able to define
for you what the patriarchy is.

and I certainly wouldn't be
able to explain what is negative

about it for me as a, as a man.

Sam: Well, I mean, there's one way of
looking at it, which is that it's a

relatively small number of men owning
all the stuff and defining the conditions

in which the rest of us spend our lives.

So,

Ali: Ali?

Yeah, no, it's, it's a, yeah,
very concise definition, yeah.

Sam: And there are some women that
are members of the patriarchy.

Yeah, absolutely.

Like Gina Reinhardt.

Joe: Yeah.

Hang on, women can be
members of the patriarchy?

Ali: Absolutely.

They can benefit

Joe: from it.

becomes, the concept breaks down
when you tell me a woman can

be a part of the patriarchy.

Because then I don't have a
concept of what the patriarchy is.

Basically,

Sam: well this is Marxist feminism.

Joe: What you're describing
is uh, like oligarchy, yes.

Sam: Capitalism.

This is a class based analysis.

Fundamentally.

Joe: Patriarchy is class
based, isn't it gender based?

I mean, come on.

Ali: But you can't, you can't
have it without class, without

Joe: race, those things do need
to be the only person listening

to this who doesn't understand
exactly what is meant by patriarchy.

Look, we

Sam: have to do Feminism 101 here, but
like, it, I do have, like, some ability

to talk about it because I've done some
of the reading, but ... The second wave

of feminism was basically proposing a
class based position for women as a whole.

So it was just a simple kind of
innovation there to just say women

as a whole are like a second class
and, you know, what follows from

that and the politics that followed.

And so a lot of useful things were
accomplished through that analysis.

So now what Caitlin Moran is...

Joe: What wave of
feminism are we up to now?

Sam: 3, 3.

5, whatever.

Joe: Right.

Yeah.

And you've read your
feminist theory too, Ali?

Yeah.

And is it common amongst you and
your friends to have a decent

theoretical understanding of feminism
or some of them are just more vibe?

Ali: Uh, I think there's a mix, a mix.

Yeah.

But no, definitely, you know,
I'd say women are, well, within

my, you know, the context of my
friends, pretty across it, yeah.

Joe: So what's the project right now?

What's the priority for feminism?

Is it pay still, or is it education, or
is it cultural domination, or getting hold

Ali: of the mental load, it's the
mental load, and we were going to talk

about that as another topic, but the
exhaustion of being, you know, a woman.

Again, similarly, like being on
that pedestal, the expectation

that you have to have it all, do it
all, and have it all without, yeah.

Without the capacity or the
supports to be able to actually...

Joe: And what happens if you just
went on strike from the mental load?

Well, everything, well, it'd

Ali: be like in, was it in Iceland?

It all just fell apart and so
you'd have some meaningful changes.

Um, yeah.

Sam: Because, because the ultimate,
the original gender pay gap was

the unpaid work women do, right?

And so we, we...

. This is, this is what capitalism does.

So that's when, that's when
you said we, it keeps railroad

us in to certain narrow areas

Joe: of debate that's distract.

When, when we all started doing
the dishes and the washing, we

all became equally oppressed.

Yes.

Sam: So, no, it's, so it wasn't
really a victory, was it?

Yes.

Well, that's right to, well, to the,
to the extent, to the extent that,

let's say to people that happened
to be a heterosexual xx and XY with,

you know, uh, kids and jobs, right?

They're both in employment,
so they're both.

You know, putting up with that and all
the disadvantages that come with that,

essentially, like, Sure, you get a pay
packet, but you need two of them to

afford what one pay packet could buy you
a generation ago, so whoop dee fucking do.

Now you've got two busy, tired people
with low libido and High cognitive burden,

and let's say they even managed to split
the house, the domestic work between them

evenly somehow, which is a difficult task.

Well now you've just got
two miserable people.

Well done capitalism.

Ali: Well done.

And, and, and, but I suppose like
we're still very much where this is.

The difference is that, that, that
split is still not, and there's a

lot of evidence to support that there
is not, that split is not equal.

But for a variety

Joe: of reasons, you get your two
weeks in Bali though, where someone

else does all the housework and
you get along really well for that.

Sam: It's not, that's just it.

It's a window into how life could be.

What's really needed is not two weeks
in Bali with third world slaves.

What's needed is.

An easier life on average and
a better work life balance.

We need a three day,
four day working week.

Joe: I wanted to say Sam,

Sam: what could benefit most
women is what could benefit most

men, like it's as simple as that.

Joe: I think we'll wrap it up soon,
but um, I wanted to say something

you said to me a while ago, cause you
and I, as soon as you say the word

Marxist, I kind of tune out cause I
feel like you're trapped in the 19th

century and it's like not that relevant.

I'm a pretty retro dude.

But something you said a while ago
is that to understand the world you

decide to understand economic history.

Yes.

And then I took that into my personal
life and I looked around and I, I

thought about my life and I thought what
really defines the decisions I make?

And it's, and it's economics.

Yes, it does.

And then I can extrapolate that out
to the whole world, and suddenly, I do

have a better understanding, because
I think I've always been a discourse,

cultural kind of guy, you know, like,
I went to film school too, and learned

how to dissect films using different
ideologies and methodologies and whatever,

turns out it wasn't that good a way
to understand the actual real world.

So I think that, I'm going to say on
the record, I think I agree with you,

and I think that I need to understand
my own economics more, and understand

the pressures that I'm under, because
then I'll understand culturally

why I'm drawn to a Jordan Peterson.

Yes.

Whereas if, instead of going to art
school, I'd go on to law school, when

I was now on a hundred and fifty grand
a year, I might be more drawn to, I

don't know, Read the Guardian, and think
about, the voice referendum more, right?

But instead I'm kind of
stressed, and trying to...

Make a living, and I have less time and
capacity for things that I don't see as...

Super essential, right?

I'm not saying that about The
Voice, by the way, it's just an

example of a middle class issue.

Sam: The highest support for it
is among the upper middle class.

Well, it's

Joe: that kind of Guardian Saturday
paper kind of thing, right?

It is.

And I, surprisingly to myself,
but I have ended up not that.

We're all voting yes, by the way.

Yeah, I'm voting yes, of course.

Like, God, we fucked up.

Whatever we can do to make it better.

It's pretty simple, but, I'm not in
that discourse anymore, uh, I'm very

much a working class person, and,

Sam: yeah, it's about, I'm absolutely
frothing my dacks right now, but anyway.

About what?

Oh, just everything I'm
hearing, yeah, anyway.

But

Joe: it's like So, to tie it back into
that podcast we all listened to and

that book and stuff, I think I'm going
to agree with you that it probably

needs to focus more on the political,
the concrete and looking at that stuff

like, are there too many men in jail?

Are there too many men committing suicide?

Are there too many unemployed men?

And then

Sam: you don't stop there.

What you do is you go, are
there too many people in prison?

Why are there so many people in prison?

Why do we have prisons?

Yeah, but

Joe: if you go too far,

Sam: then it becomes too abstract.

I'm not saying we can ever do without,
like, some form of incarceration

will probably be necessary sadly,
but the systems of genuine oppression

that are being built up currently
around the world are no joke.

Joe: So I'm going to say, I've decided
from being somewhat conservative, from

being a conservative centrist, I think.

My economic circumstances lead me to
having to be open to more radical...

Yes.

Sam: Otherwise it's fascism, bro.

I'm telling you like, that's it.

We either make big changes and create more
justice or we're going to get fascism.

It's as simple as that.

Joe: As will, I think the changes that
come about with climate change, where

it's like, are they going to go and
force me to work when it's 43 degrees?

Fucking oath they are.

And in the film industry,
the answer will be yes.

In the building industry, no,
they knock off at 35 degrees

because they have a union.

So like climate change comes
back to that stuff as well.

as well, actually.

So it's, it's, it's been interesting
spending over a year in this dialogue

with you, Sam, and with you, Ali.

And it's like, for as much as I get
wrong, the one thing I, I have a good

ability to do is open, open my mind again.

Yeah.

And take

Sam: on stuff.

But I also think you're
an excellent weather vane.

Like you do point.

Where the winds are blowing like I see it.

Well, I'm

Joe: glad I didn't back down on
exploring Jordan Peterson And then I

Jordan Peterson himself went somewhat
off the rails Yeah, cool completely

ended up in a coma in Russia trying to
get over a benzo addiction Well, yeah,

Sam: but but he got
destroyed by the algorithm

Joe: He did.

Yeah, he did.

And if he had a stuck to doing his
academic psychology stuff on YouTube

it would, he would have been making a
small but positive contribution to the

world instead he became a nasty right
winger and so in that sense my friend

who warned me off him was right but my
reaction I'm glad I had that reaction

and stuck to my intellectual guns and
be like no I'm going to explore this

you and the question that's unanswered
for me and you, more than for Ali, I

think, is how do we either become role
models for young men and boys or, uh,

find them some role models, you know?

Sam: Yeah, really fair question.

but you know what I think
would be interesting?

Let's hear it from Ali.

What?

Joe: Yeah.

What I want to hear from Ali
is, you've got a teenage boy.

When you look around the cultural
landscape, who do you see as role models?

Ali: Ooh, I think like when you
say sort of gentle masculinity

or sensitive masculinity.

And you know, and if we're talking
about like celebrity sort of, you know,

Sam: yeah, I guess it needs to
be someone, at least some public

profile, you know, like they

Joe: mentioned Keanu

Ali: Reeves.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, well, that's
what she's saying.

Like Keanu Reeves, the Pedro Pascal's
like that this, you know, sort of more

gentle, masculinity that I feel like.

Particularly they would still

Joe: throw you around a
bit in the bedroom, right?

You still got to have a bit of
bulk and a bit of like, no, it's,

Ali: it's not, it's not that it's,
it's, it's, it's, it's actually, I

think it's really finding people that
you can individually identify with.

And that, I mean, that goes for
everybody is being able to have a role

model that, you know, that, that suits
the things that you, that you value.

And so, you know, in the context of my
son and what I would want for him and.

You know, I would like to see more
gay, you know, sensitive, you know,

gentle role models out there to,
you know, that he can look up to

Joe: and...

What about someone like a
Harry Styles or whatever?

Ali: Oh, he loves Harry Styles.

We all love Harry Styles.

So, so,

Joe: so...

But Harry's a more feminine masculinity...

Sam: No, but Harry's a bit of a...

Blank Cypher.

Really.

Joe: I don't know who he is
other than see photos of him.

Exactly.

Ali: Yeah.

No, yeah, no, I think, yeah, but
actually having people who like, I

think that's where Pedro Pascal and
like the, the fandom around him has

really, particularly after The Last of
Us and seeing like the way he speaks.

Isn't it like daddy stuff though?

There's a bit of that, that, that
daddy energy, but at the same time,

it's, you know, I mean, that's just
more people thirsting after him.

But the, the, the, I think the, the
fandom has been created because he

Projects this lovely, sensitive, warm,
genuine, you know, sort of what it

is to be a man without all the, the,
yeah, the toxic, negative bullshit that

it's actually incredibly appealing.

And that's why a lot of, you
know, women and men are just

like, bring on Daddy Pedro.

What about

Joe: outside of, uh, Hollywood actors?

Sam: Well, I was going to say, there's
Taika Waititi, um, before he, like...

just if you just hear him talk about
like growing up with a single mom and

like stuff like that like he's really
like he he's very he's very good on

he's and he's a gentle but also like
funny and relatable but i actually

think we need closer to home like yeah
um and it's good to start with the

public sphere you know the media sphere

Joe: and it's got to be someone
everyone has access to it's going

to be a role model but if we're

Ali: also talking about yeah like
people within his life i look at his

dad who is a really excellent example
of, you know, what it is to be a man.

And even though they are very
different in a lot of ways, like

I think his dad's always really...

Reinforce the message that there is not
one way to be a man and whatever you,

that looks like to you, we will support
you and love you for what that is.

And I think, his dad is, you know,
done an amazing job in that way in, in

embracing the things that, you know,
are perceived to be either feminine

or whatever it is, because he has a
genuine interest in it and that's okay.

Yeah, his dad's done a
really fantastic job in that.

And I think he's also got some
really excellent teachers at school,

like some, you know, men in there.

Joe: I'm sensing a huge like dearth of
anyone in the public sphere other than a

couple of Hollywood actors or pop stars.

Like, I don't know if there ever was.

You know, like, I probably should
never have looked up to Jack Kerouac

if I hadn't been his contemporary, he
was an incredibly flawed person, all

the beats were, but when I was 16...

I got handed on the road and read
that book and that changed me, you

know, or I have Bob Dylan to this day.

I have a Bob Dylan poster on my wall
above my bed and he's like my God.

Yeah.

Those, those sort of people.

Again, incredibly flawed.

I'm sure when it comes to
say relationships with women,

but an artist, you know,

Sam: incredible artist.

Also the role models you need
change through your life.

Yes.

And so, yeah.

So for me at one point
it is Dylan and Kerouac.

Joe: And you can still have
Dylan and Kerouac as a 16 year

old now and they probably do.

Sam: Yeah.

And like, it was good to have Ginsberg
in the mix because he was like, he

gave me a window into something.

And like, yeah.

And he helped me understand my own
sexuality a bit more, but like,

there's, but there's so much beyond
just like the radical icons of the

past or the present, moving into my.

So, even in my early thirties,
I needed role models that helped

me move my career forward.

A lot of them were actually

Joe: women.

Yeah, and Che Guevara's
not that helpful with that.

No, that's right.

But when you're 21 and smoking bongs,
and, oh, I had like a Che Guevara

banner from Cuba hung in my window in...

Yeah.

A flat in North Melbourne.

That's right.

That

Ali: is the most Melbourne thing.

It was

Joe: so cool.

It had horses on it.

It was cool.

But like Che Guevara was one, but
I didn't know what he really did.

I just knew he was cool
and a revolutionary.

I had one really famous cool
photo of him and that was enough.

You know, you're not

Sam: super deep at trotting.

But you're sensing an opportunity.

To like, cause you know, Shai,

Joe: Shai Govar is not going
to be a politician, it's

not going to be Albo, is it?

No,

Sam: I mean, maybe it is for some blokes,
but like, I don't get that feeling.

Joe: Centrists don't become

Sam: icons.

And in this country, it's tended to
be cricketers and people like that.

Or Bob Hawke,

Joe: I mean, Bob Hawke.

Bob Hawke.

See, in the 80s you had a Bob Hawke.

You don't have that now.

You have a very beige,
yeah, you have a very beige

Sam: elbow doing the same job.

I would say, I would say Max Chan
Lamatha, good male role model

in lots of ways from, um, good

old

Joe: Max.

He's not going to get anywhere
with a hyphenated name, mate.

Yeah, whatever.

Um,

Sam: and but, you know, fair enough.

But no, there is an opportunity and
a responsibility, uh, here, Joe.

So maybe it's something
we can look into more.

Uh, but there's a couple of
things that I've, not said so far.

So I couldn't quite like
I've, I welcome Caitlin's

contribution to the conversation.

I think it's very important.

And I think it's it's
going to do a lot of good.

Wait till she hears about ours.

Yeah.

Actually, no, I'll, I'll send this to her.

I'll send this to her.

Joe: She will not listen to it.

Sam: Yeah.

Anyway, you never know.

You never know.

But like the.

She's done a lot of useful stuff already,
and there's more to come, obviously, and a

lot of women are going to really continue
to look up to her, some are going to feel

disappointed by this, um, but I think a
lot of them will come on board eventually.

But I was trying to put my
finger on like, I was trying to

put aside all my little gripes.

And go, what's the big thing, the really
useful thing here, and I was trying to

find a way to put it in my own words, and
it only just came to me last night when I

was doing the dishes, and she's basically
saying, I think the core of it is this,

that this new generation of boys coming
through, and to some extent older men,

we've ended up giving them the feeling
That their feelings don't matter, except

as it relates to the well being of girls

and I would, and I was like, go on, sorry.

Joe: I would say it's almost a
feeling of men aren't really wanted.

Sam: Yeah.

And the only time we're going
to discuss your feelings is when

they've become a problem for us.

And then I was thinking about this and
I was like, Oh, this is the inverse of

the emotional regime that was in place.

A hundred years ago, like
that's what she's describing.

Women's feelings didn't matter except
as they related to the prerogatives,

well being and desires of men.

Oh man.

Joe: Wait till you see Barbie.

It's going to blow your mind.

Sam: And women's feelings, if they
went against, if they got in the way

of what men wanted, hysterectomy.

If they were in line with what
men wanted, great, but irrelevant,

essentially, at that point.

And if they don't affect what men want
either way, then not worth discussing.

But I think maybe that's where
we've ended up a little bit in the,

maybe in the middle class discourse.

It might be different in the outer
suburbs or in certain communities.

In certain religious communities in
particular, it might be very different.

Uh, and boys might still
be enormously privileged.

Um, but I think she's right
that what we're, the message...

The younger boys are getting,
your feelings only matter when

they cause problems for women,
and I think that's not going to

Ali: work.

And so, yeah, the, the issue is like,
yeah, if your feelings don't matter also

within the context of the patriarchy,
that it's not okay to express your

feelings if you are having them.

It's not okay.

Yeah.

So it's a

Sam: double edged...

They're your problem and
you're alone to deal with them.

And where does that lead?

Ali: Gravitating towards Andrew
Tate's and that sort of stuff, because

yeah, you can't express your feelings
because of the patriarchy, but also,

yeah, your feelings don't matter

Sam: because of the patriarchy.

That's right.

Or you go, or you externalize
them and put them onto others

and seek to make them victims.

And that's obviously not okay.

And so, but the second thing that
is like, Caitlin and Mia are not.

I'm not at all interested in where I
would like to take the conversation, I

don't think, which is, I, I'm, and Ali
and I may be closer to a, an agreement on

this, I want it to be that we don't need,
boys don't need to go looking for male

role models, because anyone Who offers
the right things would be a suitable role

model and like I and same for girls Yes,
and I would like to think that I can be

a role model because I've got Female
students and I think that I have served

as a role model and I think really cards
on the table I want a post class, post

gender society, post race, all of that,
like, I want to move past all of this.

I think that identity is the
number one thing that keeps

us trapped within ideology.

And that, I think ideology operates on
the level of feeling and sensation and ego

Joe: and identity.

And zooming right out, the reality
is that we're loving awareness and

the illusion is that we're separate.

Different

Sam: individuals and that
illusion creates so much harm.

Joe: And yeah.

And the discourse, the hyper identitarian
discourse that took over the progressive

left is focus on race, gender, and

Sam: stuff.

And it's created a lot
of perverse outcomes.

Joe: Like it created this, it's reinforced
the illusion that we're separate

individuals, uh, at war with each other.

That's right.

And it's not true.

Like we're actually just one.

It's a whole thing happening at one time.

Suffering, and suffering a lot,
under the illusion of being alone,

separate, vulnerable, and at war with
each other based on skin, gender,

class, all of that stuff, right?

So that's the big Zoom ride out.

But yeah, I think that's probably
a good place to leave it.

Ali, do you have anything
more to say on, uh...

Are the blokes okay?

Ali: Oh look, I, I think
they are and they aren't.

Like, we, but there's a lot we
can, yeah, like a long way to go.

Sam: Some of them are doing
far too well for themselves.

Yes.

And some of them are in
absolute dire straits.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Like, and

Ali: that's just not okay.

No, and we, and we all need to, we
all need tools to, to dismantle the

Sam: patriarchy.

That's right.

We all do.

Joe: Alright, well, I'm looking
forward to our Barbie episode where...

Ali, you can woman splain the
patriarchy to me at greater length.

And Sam, can Sam splain it to me?

Sam: No, no, no.

In the Barbie EP, I'll
be given a time quota.

And Ali will be given
a minimum time quota.

Joe: Yeah.

It's a funny thing, because
it's not a feigned ignorance.

Like, I have some, not emotional,
I struggle with the emotions,

I'm working on that in therapy.

But, I have some cognitive horsepower.

But then there's some things that
I come across, like the patriarchy,

which I read and I talk to people
and I try and understand it.

It just doesn't get in,
and I don't then walk out.

I don't walk out onto the
street in Thornbury and see

the patriarchy everywhere.

I don't.

I just see something like
what I've always seen.

That's the point though.

The lens doesn't ever drop into place.

That's why

Sam: it's so insidious.

Yeah, so it's operations are

Joe: invisible.

I think it doesn't have
to be a feigned ignorance.

I think it's a good discussion
because you two get it and I don't.

So I think hopefully for the listeners,
it can be something we come back to.

Um, because what I'm not questioning
is that everyone else is right

and they, they know what it is.

I'm just saying, I don't
fucking know what it is.

And I only ever knew.

Enough to think that it benefited
me, but where I've ended it up, quite

economically vulnerable and Yes,
kind of unhappy in areas of my life.

It's like some of this is because I don't
understand the patriarchy Oh, I certainly

don't understand the pitfalls of it.

You know,

Sam: we're operating in well This is what
Gramsci would call false consciousness

where you're like you know, you're like
the worker that doesn't realize you're

underpaid And you're like the bloke who
doesn't realize that You've got this

tiny, you've got this like, little bit of
pointless privilege, but look at the dis

privilege that, like, that comes with it,
that you're ignoring, and that the, the

same system that's like keeping down your
wife or partner is At least indirectly, if

not directly, also keeping you down as a

Joe: consequence.

And when I look at the line, it's like my
grandfather mercilessly beat my father.

My father mercilessly belittled
me instead of beating me.

But with my daughters, I
wouldn't belittle or beat them.

And that's what's happened.

That's how we're getting better.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, as a society, you, I mean,

Sam: there, there is good news
here that the patriarchy does

not have the stranglehold at

Joe: once.

Yeah.

And I agree with you.

I wanna kind of be role, I'm terrified
for my teenage daughters just 'cause of

the stats around self-harm and, and yeah.

That's not great depression.

Yeah.

So I want to try and be a
role model for them too.

But the best I can come up
with is to be a pretty stable,

steady, calm, sober presence.

Big time.

Right.

Big time.

Um, but, so actually my
work won't be really with.

Boys and young men my work's gonna be
with you with girls and young women

because that's what I've got That's your
primary unless I turn around and become

a teacher one day I'm not gonna be doing
a lot of that or you know Volunteer

at a junior cricket club or something
which I could do so you'd make a great

Sam: teacher.

Joe: Yeah But there's a lot Yeah,
I hope Bron who sent us this idea.

Thank you for that, Bron.

Yeah, really, cheers.

We all kind of, sorry if you're
a massive Mia fan, we all found

her a bit annoying, but there
was a lot of good ideas in there.

Joe has a crush on her though, too, so.

And yeah, Bron, I'd be interested
to hear your feedback because, um.

Yeah, Bron's a woman who I think has some
really interesting perspectives on this.

Oh, I want

Sam: to know what she
thinks about Caitlyn Monroe.

Yeah,

Joe: I think she's an older woman
who thinks men have copped it a

bit hard in the last 20 years,
even though she's a feminist.

So,

Sam: well, it is, it is often older
women who are not, that are no longer

in the thick of it with child rearing
and balancing work and all of that.

They tend to be able to see
it a little more easily.

Sorry,

Joe: Bron, if I'm putting words in your
mouth, but that's always the impression

I got from you was that you have a...

A bit of a sympathetic
view of, yeah, yeah.

Ali: I was just going to say, yeah,
like when you say in the thick of it,

you know, like the things that the
second wave feminists were fighting

for were like, you know, you know,
reproductive rights, equal pay, you

know, or being Access to the workplace.

All those sorts of things.

They've fundamentally achieved
those things within their lifetime

and it's now these other things.

So, yeah.

Sam: And, of course, the second wave
that is still among us would often

be the first to point out that the
benefits they managed to win were not

an unalloyed benefit to women after all.

And there were other feminists at
the time who were saying, we need to

go way past workforce participation.

We need to go to ownership of the
means of production, and there were

people saying that from the beginning.

But we're not going to sneeze on those
achievements, but we are going to

say It, you know, gaining workforce
participation has ultimately just meant

that now everyone's under the pump.

Yeah.

In a different way to before.

Yeah.

You know, like imagine, I mean, like,
but the idea of like Jordan Peterson

and the rest of them, like the idea
of women going back to just not.

Viewing that as an option
is just like, what the hell?

It's clearly a nonsense.

But the idea that you get, everyone
gets to slave their guts out and

barely keep a roof over their heads.

Well, that's just nonsense.

That's also not good.

Yeah.

And yeah, and so I, I, so thank,
anyway, thank you to Caitlin

Moran and thank you to Bron.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thanks

Joe: Bron.

See you next week, guys.

Sam: See ya.

See ya.