The Ten Thousand Things

Sam: Hello and welcome
to the 10, 000 things.

My name is Sam Ellis.

I'm Joe Loh.

Ali: And I'm Ali Catramados.

Joe: Today on the show, what do we
want to pass on to our children?

This topic came up because the
other week I gave a copy of The

Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle,
or Tolle as they say everywhere

else in the world, to my daughter.

And to my surprise,
she started reading it.

And I was like, oh my god, my 14 year
old daughter is reading a book that I

gave her and getting something out of it.

And I was like, it made me think, like,
what's my priorities, if, if, if I am

going to have some influence, and up
until that point I figured I was just not,

what's, you know, what's my influence?

My father had handed me a copy of
On the Road at about 15, 16 when

I was in my first deep depression.

that really influenced me a lot.

So.

And then, yeah, just more
broadly, like, what do we want

to pass on to our, our children?

I don't know, like, you know, in
their, in their lives, in, I guess,

by the time we die, but mostly,
I guess, by the time they're 21.

You know, as a framing
of the, of the topic.

yeah, I don't know, over to you
guys, you're both parents, so.

Sam: We're all just about past the, show
me the child at seven, all that, I've

got still a couple of years on that,
with one, and another's already well

past seven, and all, both of you, well
past seven, with your, with your kids,

so I was, I was thinking about the on the
road thing and your dad giving you that,

and I wanted to ask more specifically,
because you've mentioned this before,

what did you, What did you get from that?

And what was your father
trying to transmit?

Joe: depression in six at 16
what's in that book for anyone

who picks it up If you can look
past the outdated sexism of it.

Yeah, is this incredible lust for life?

Yes, this incredible sense of adventure
this sense that you might have no

money But you've got the freedom to
walk to the edge of the city and just

start hitchhiking and you can get to
the other side of a country and you

can go on adventures and none of it is
dependent on, yeah, material, anything.

It's just a sense of adventure and,
and in that book is the most, it's

still my favorite book to this day,
the most extraordinary, capturing

of, What's incredible about human
life, I think, and the sense of fun

and excitement of being a young man.

So I think it helped lift
me out of my depression.

So yeah.

Ali: That's such a gift.

That's really a gift.

Yeah.

That your dad was able to give you.

Sam: And, and yeah, it sounds like
it was a good choice and do you

think that's what he was getting at?

With the

Joe: Don't know.

I mean, maybe it was like me.

I handed a copy of The
Power of Now to Scarlett.

I didn't expect her to read it.

Maybe she just handed me this
book and thought it might help.

Sam: So you were quite convinced
she wouldn't pick it up at all?

Joe: Yeah, I don't know.

Do kids read books?

I don't see much sign of it.

But yeah, what about you, Ali?

Ali: So, I mean, I'm just trying to think
of my son So like Spotify wrapped has

recently just, you know, happened and
which is like the highlight of our year

because, and it's a thing every year
we go through and we go through each

other's lists and we go through and we
talk about like all the different albums

and discover new music together and
like My boy, you know, from the womb was

listening to music, like he's been exposed
to music his whole life and, you know,

even when he came into the world, like
the first thing he heard was David Bowie.

Like that was the, you know,
he was, he's always just.

So this deep love of music and
expression and what it can do for

your mood, for your state of mind.

I think that's just something that
I, yeah, I'm, I can, I can witness

the benefits of it, you know, of
how it's made him feel like as a

direct thing that's come from me.

Because I'm trying to think of like, I
mean, yeah, we've read similar books.

We've, you know, he's, I
mean, he's a voracious reader.

So he actually, he reads a lot and
You know, I mean, certainly more

than I had ever read at that age.

So, but yeah, I think like, it would
be music, it'd be the thing that I've

certainly, I think I can see that I've
passed on to him, apart from other, you

know, I suppose when I, when you pitched
this topic, I was sort of thinking more

of like the values and things that we'd,

Joe: Yeah, that's why I
wanted to broaden it out too.

Yeah, because that's, yeah.

Like, let's just say, who knows when we're
going to die, but let's just say by the

time they're 21, like what have we Well.

Passed on to

Sam: them.

It's funny, funny you should put that
age on it, because you and I were down a

parent by that age, and at that point,
whatever legacy they intended to give me,

intellectually or culturally or values
or whatever, that had already been done.

What I didn't realise was actually
that it keeps being transmitted, and

that And I don't mean that in any kind
of supernatural sense, but that the

parents, the dead ones, they still speak
to you, uh, you remember things as time

goes by that weren't relevant earlier.

And they, so things are still being
passed down is what I'm saying.

And of course my dad's still around
and he's still passing things

on very much, and I welcome it.

Now with the, you and the books with,
it's great , to be in the to like

you two can actually just ask each
other, what did you think about this?

And that's great.

So what was a book that you really
both uh, one that was really

productive of a good exchange out of
all the What have you recommended?

What have you recommended?

Ali: Oh, so he, he just goes through
phases and like, I mean, yeah, he was

He was going through a George Orwell
phase, so he read 1984, and then,

so he got Notes on Catalonia, and
then we just, you know, books that

I'd sort of read in my late teens.

Sam: Okay, so you'd read
Notes on Catalonia, I haven't.

Yeah,

Ali: yeah, not for a very long time,
but I'd read it when I was younger,

and so I gave that to him to read, so.

Sam: So you two had a chat about
the Spanish Civil War one day?

Ali: Yeah, so yeah, he's, and like,
and he's, he'll bring up, you know,

Wikipedia, or he'll bring up like, you
know, things that he's been reading in

conjunction with it, because he sort
of, he's like me, like, we'll be reading

something, but we've got to go, and then.

Reference and check things as we go.

And so it becomes, so you
have a bigger picture.

So that sort of dialogue of, you know, of
what we do, like, yeah, whether it's all

those cultural things, whether it's music
or movies or books, like, yeah, it becomes

a broader discussion then about what, how
did that make us feel or what, what has

changed or how is it relevant to us now?

And yeah, I love those discussions
with him and his insight.

And yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

I agree.

Way to really, I think, bring you.

closer to you that's it's the most
I feel present when I'm with him

like it's because it's You know,
so much of the day to day of, you

know, work and life and Rundanities.

Sam: Yeah.

Telling your kids to

Ali: do stuff all the time.

Yeah.

Like, whereas, like, actually when we're
just sitting, like I said the other day,

like, you know, it's the highlight of
our years, the Spotify draft is actually

just sitting and having a really in
depth discussion about, you know, which

grunge songs he was into, which like,
you know, like, yeah, cause he's So

much of the music influence is like
from me and from his dad and from his

friends and that sort of melting pot.

It's really interesting.

Sam: Okay.

And of course the lyrical
profundity of treat me like a,

Ali: That which he was
his number eight song.

And I'm like, wow, if that, if I haven't
like rubbed off on him, What's that?

Joe: So

Ali: the Kim Petras was my number one
played song, treat me like a slut.

The song

Sam: that Joe was tutting and moral
panicking about on the, uh, on the group.

Ali: And my son's been listening to it.

So.

But then, like, yeah, Nine Inch Nails
would have been, you know, cause that

would have been mine when I was that age.

That's right.

Yeah, and it's the same for him.

And that, I'm pretty sure,
that popped up on his list too.

Like, you know, Nine Inch Nails popped

Sam: up.

No one in our generation thinks that
Trent Reznor's a bad influence on

Joe: the youth, do you?

I think I wanna fuck you like an
animal is a much better thing to

say than treat me like a slut.

Oh my

Sam: God, they're both, they're both
awesome statements that need to be in the

right context between the right people.

Joe: Anyway, we're way off track.

I mean,

Sam: Sam, do you feel like,
they're both gateways into a

world of pleasure and profundity.

Sam, do

Joe: you feel like you're
consciously trying to influence

and shape your children?

Yeah.

I feel like you are much more conscious.

I'm just, I guess I feel
like I just observe them.

and do some guiding, but basically
I just watch them unfold.

Whereas I think just from hearing you
talk about your parenting, you sound

very conscious and focused on certain,
you know, modeling certain things and

things around gender being a construct
and stuff that I have not done at all.

I mean, but so I feel like you're
consciously trying to mold your children.

Okay.

I mean, they're much younger.

How old are they?

Sam: Okay, five and nine.

I would have to tell us, I'd have
to tell a bit of a long winded

narrative about actually how my view
of all this has changed quite a lot.

so for example, let's attack it from the
point of view of the question of values.

All right.

And this is one that comes up.

It's a favorite hobby
horse of mine, actually.

People treat it like a simple thing.

Empathy.

Empathy is good, right?

Values.

Values are good, right?

I think most people, no offense.

They've not been forced to examine it in
the way I have, because professionally,

like, in teaching, we're constant, there
are debates about values, and there's

a lot of pressure from the media, from
parents, and from all over, politics.

What values should we be
transmitting, blah, blah, blah.

Or people will say, um, you know,
I sent my kids to this expensive

school, you know, because values.

And it's often incredibly vague.

What, what values exactly?

Do public schools not have values?

That's something that
really gets my back up.

I think public schools do have values.

Democratic, inclusive.

Multicultural, etc.

Law of the

Joe: jungle.

Uh, that too.

Yeah, that's what I
learned at public school.

Now of

Sam: course, independent schools,
law of the jungle also applies.

Yeah.

In a different way.

Different type of jungle though.

Yeah.

Now, so, so I think that this idea
of values is very seductive and I

think very simplistic for most people.

Now, I'm not, I don't want to do
anyone a disservice or discredit.

I think most people actually do, when
they stop and reflect, they will realize.

That they actually do have a conflicted
set of values and that it's not a

straightforward matter what they
want to pass on to their kids.

And of course we often find
ourselves trying to transmit

one value only to realize that
we're not living by it properly.

Yeah, do as I say, don't do as I do.

Yeah, exactly.

And kids don't do what you
say, they do what they see.

So if you keep that in mind.

What we're, how we're really transmitting
values is just through how we live

our lives and how we, I would say all
three of us, we've changed in how we

live our lives and that was revealed
in a recent episode for Ali and Joe's

been through huge changes, even just
in the last two years even, right?

So the things that your kids
will be picking up from that

will have changed in that time.

Also.

I think early on I really overthought
it when the, when they were babies,

like I found myself quite stiff and
buttoned up around babies, my babies,

and found it hard to be natural and be
myself and kind of like how I've felt in

the studio when the red light turns on
and okay, it's time to sing or kind of,

Ali: I totally, I really
resonate with that.

It's interesting, like, when I fell
pregnant, and I was quite young

and my son's father was very young
when we found out I was pregnant

and it's, I mean, mercifully, we
have always been on the same page.

Like, so co parenting with him has
been really, really, like, I can

count on one hand the amount of times
we've ever disagreed about parenting.

We're really very, very similarly minded.

And I remember really vividly a discussion
around, Our own experience growing up

and what we wanted for our baby and
how it was really in stark contrast to

what we'd both experienced and sort of,
and really being very deliberate in,

okay, well, we don't want to do this.

So we don't, so it was a really conscious
thing of like, Oh, like, yeah, the, my

parents, you know, quick to temper and
quick to yell and similarly with his.

You know, parents and, or, you
know, anger and violence was very

much a part of that experience.

And so we were so

Sam: also his father, yeah,

Ali: very much so.

And so we both had those sort of
volatile childhoods that we just did

not want that experience for our boy.

And so we very much, it was such
a conscious thing of like, and

catching ourselves, you know,
like, Do as I say, not as I do.

And you, you have, when it's
something you've observed and

you've, it's so natural to be quick
to temper or to fly off the handle.

Like, cause that was my experience
growing up and actually catching

myself and going, no, I need to
really, that's not how we're doing it.

We're going to be patient.

We're going to be calm.

We're going to be quiet.

We're going to be, we
are going to be a safe.

You know, a soft landing for him.

That is all, that is what we wanted.

And it was such a conscious thing
we worked on from the beginning and

massively, like I said, we've always
been on the same page and I have

enormous respect for him as a father.

He's been a brilliant father.

And so, it's been a really, I
think those sorts of things.

And, and then watching like
our son grow up and, you know,

the age that he is now and how.

Different.

I mean, like there are similarities, you
know, with me and with his father, but

also the difference in just in behaviors
and things that he and his self confidence

that neither his father or I had.

And I think that is a
result of the way we've.

If there's anything else I want to tell

Joe: you in this episode
Be sure to turn it up!

I'm in Whampara I don't have

Ali: a believable idea where
my auditory analogy right is

Sam: It is really horrible that
I lost this for theatre You can

watch it at accuracyacademy.

tv mmm sung Bob let your
heights shoot out That

Joe: is so good Woah, no!

It's just what I would be concerned about.

Of course.

Oh yeah,

Ali: absolutely.

Like what was

Joe: good?

What was good about having being
yelled at and belted as a kid?

Probably nothing except that maybe
toughened you up a little bit, right?

Yes.

It didn't happen to me.

I didn't get really hit

Sam: as a kid.

What doesn't kill you
makes you weaker sometimes.

Joe: Yeah, I don't know.

And maybe the world that he goes
into isn't going to be a scary place.

I have

Ali: no idea.

I mean, he's certainly experienced,
I would say, yeah, things at school

that yeah, are horrible or, you
know, other kids saying shit.

Things and things that he would
never have, you know, experienced

in the home and like, you know,
people being really awful or having,

you know, saying terrible things.

And yeah, he's come home and we've
talked about it, but the way he's

been able to handle himself, I
think what we've tried to foster is

a strong sense of self-confidence.

Yeah.

So that.

He's confident enough and learned,
felt comfortable enough to be able

to speak his mind in the home, which
was never something I was able to

do, or his father was able to do.

So that in the real world, that's actually
translated to him being able to stand up

not just for himself, but for his friends.

And he is very quick to step in and say

Sam: something.

Teenagers have a strong sense of
justice generally, as, as kids do.

Ali: But it's the confidence to be able to
say, actually do something, whereas like

I would have probably hung back and been
like, you know, or just not say anything.

Whereas I think he's actually far more
vocal than his father and I ever were.

Well,

Sam: I think that's right.

I think kids and teens in general
suffer greatly when there is that

gap between their sense of justice
and their feeling of agency about

being able to do anything about it.

Ali: Um, yeah, that's the thing.

I think that sense of agency and
knowing like, and this is something

in stark contrast to my, my.

Parents is that he's always, I think
he's always had a sense of his.

Voice is just as important as
mom and dad's in the family.

It always was.

It was

Joe: But we joked about the other
week how they sent you to a fancy

girls private school and they told
you that your voice was important.

We joked about We all had a laugh about
that because The teenage's voice is

not actually that important in society.

Agreed.

Yeah, but Unless you're Greta
Thunberg and then And You know,

people have a meltdown about it.

Sam: And people say virtuous
things like the, the conservatives

and the liberals alike are happy
to say, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kids, you know, kids should
speak up on important issues.

And then the second they
do, you don't get it.

Shut up.

Ali: Yeah.

I don't know.

Like, I feel like.

Joe: But yeah, but you've done that.

So you can see the irony that you were
told that as a teenager, but you don't

have irony that your son has full say in,
you know, things even though he's a minor.

But I was

Ali: told that like in the school
sense, but there was really still

very strict boundaries of when and
where that voice could be used or not.

This is

Sam: just it, right?

Yeah.

You, your voice is important, now save
it till you leave this place, I think

is the message a lot of the time.

Ali: Yeah, it was like, yeah, not
to speak out of turn in class,

or out of turn against your
parents or anything like that,

Sam: whereas Oh, and don't be, don't
be putting anything in the feedback

box for the school to consider doing

Ali: differently.

So, yeah.

Whereas he certainly would feel
comfortable Pulling me up on something

that he doesn't agree with and same
with his father and like, and yeah,

so not take that sort of as a personal
affront, but just as another person

of equal, like I said, there was,
there's no like, Oh, you have to listen

to me just because I'm your parent.

Sam: Yeah.

Appeal to authority.

Yeah.

Which is a difficult one because
we can't live without authority and

we can't just base it on authority.

Yeah.

Ali: Yeah.

It's a balance.

Like, you know, yeah.

Like it's like.

Yeah.

Trust my judgment because I'm your mother,
because I might've experienced something.

I might have a bit of insight and
knowledge in, you know, when it comes

to this versus just like do it because
I've told you to do it without any

sort of, you know, we've always tried
to offer an explanation or yeah,

or reason behind what we've said.

Joe: I mean, in terms of not
going through, not wanting your

kids to go through what you
went through, I achieved that.

We achieved that by breaking up.

Uh, well, eight years ago, yeah,
which eventually the kids were like

six and two, which broke up, which
paved the way for you to, well,

unlike me, they didn't live in a house
with tension, intrigue, fighting.

And all their time with me as the single
dad is the super chill, laissez faire, I'm

not consciously trying to mold those kids.

And not lecturing

Sam: them about left wing politics.

Joe: If it's what you do, not
what you say, then what I do is

look at my phone and watch sport.

And when I look at my 14 year
old, what she does is look at

her phone and do her makeup.

So you're

Sam: on the same page.

Great.

Joe: Well, I have an exact mirror
of myself looking back at me.

I'm on my side, you know, past the
phone in each direction, right?

And so do I want that?

It might be really fucking bad.

I mean, I think the social
media, the data's in on what

social media does to teenage

Sam: girls.

It's really bad.

Also, Joe, you're a big one for
individual responsibility in your,

you know, small C conservative role
occasionally, or occasionally a

reactionary role, but like, don't forget.

Don't give yourself all the credit or all
the blame for anything and I mean what

Ali: I even the most like strict parents
who You know would be like we would

monitor like, you know screen time
and all that sort of stuff Yeah, that

would still be and that is absolutely
a battle that every single parent is

having in the view in the world What

Joe: I'm saying is I'm not having the
battle because my experience is I'm

integrated with my iPhone so that I would
get an implant I would get an implant

into my brain that was Google Maps.

I would get an implant into my brain
that was Black Mirror stuff, yeah.

No, I would.

I'd get Google Maps and Spotify implanted.

Because basically, say if I'm
ever driving a vehicle, those

things are running and I'm getting
music and I know where I'm going.

Music I love and I know where I'm going.

So I'm completely integrated with
my iPhone, plus then I'm reading

books, articles, Instagram, whatever.

So my experience was the year that
Scarlett was born, when I got my

first iPhone, I thought this was cool.

I didn't realise I was going to become
basically a cyborg, but I have, right?

So then I can either hide that
from my children and say it's bad.

It's very bad.

I'm doing it, but it's very bad,
but I'm not going to stop doing it.

Or, and what I've actually
done is just let it slide.

Or I'm,

Sam: I'm, or I've got a terrible drinking
habit, but I'm going to tell you not

Joe: to do drugs.

Well the other thing that they
haven't seen in the last eight years

is me drinking or taking drugs.

Great.

That's awesome.

And in my house, I saw that
every single night of my life

and then became an alcoholic.

So it's, you know, I think
you've done all right.

Well, there's pros and cons.

Exactly.

The phone stuff.

I wish they looked over and I was,
uh, reading a book, a paper book.

I might be reading a book on my phone.

It's probably unlikely, but I might be.

I kind of wish they looked over.

In a way, because, I mean, it's a bit of a
joke, but in that small key C conservative

way, I kind of wish they looked over
and I was sitting in an armchair

with a pipe reading a huge newspaper.

Which is what

Sam: you used to do, kind of.

Joe: Kind of?

Yeah.

Like, I still see the patriarchal
role as that, in a sense, and if I'm

Sam: there Isn't it curious
what a passive image it is?

It's very

Joe: passive, but it's also,
for a patriarchal image,

Sam: it's so passive.

The mother is always doing, and
the father is doing nothing.

Joe: The

Sam: woman is the man of action, and the
man is a Passive consumer, but that's

Joe: kind of how bizarre it's kind
of like that, but without the giant

newspaper and the, and the armchair and
the pipe, it's kind of like that, but

I'm sitting on the couch with my phone.

It's really,

Ali: I mean, I really, I feel the guilt
there too and stuff, but like we all,

we, I think we're all guilty of it.

And like,

Joe: I mean, the difference
with that fifties father though,

is that he's unapproachable
and will tell them to shush.

Yeah.

I'm not like that at all.

I'm completely wide open if they want to
come and climb up on me or they want to.

Ask me a question or, well, if
they want to engage, I will engage.

Well, the phone's not a wall

Sam: then.

That's good.

Yeah.

That's good.

Joe: No, it's just

Ali: It's whether they
do then come to you.

I think that's And if they
do, then it's not a, it's,

Joe: it's not a problem.

In terms of what I want to pass on
to them, there's lots of things,

but the thing that I 100 percent
will pass on to them is to stare

at a screen most of the time.

I will, I've already passed that
on, you know, like Ruby the 10

year old wants her first phone.

She's already got an iPad.

Yeah, it's happening, you know,
so, but, but that is a culture wide

worldwide phenomenon that's just
galloping away and we're just going

to have to see what the wash up is.

It can't be stopped now.

Hmm.

Sam: well, I mean, there's all sorts of
things that are actually being done, um,

in and outside of industry and, you know,
there are popular movements to tackle it.

But yeah, so we can't,
so that's, that's right.

So we're realizing what all the illusions
and hidden reefs are here in this topic.

And one of the illusions
is it's up to us entirely.

And one of the illusions is, um,
that it's a, there's a simple

relationship between our intention
and what actually gets transmitted.

And so to take it and
taking the example of.

Yeah.

I'm on my phone too much.

This is bad.

Uh, you, you don't do it.

And at least you're not a
hypocrite with that, right?

Because let's say with the best
intentions, you did really consciously

limit your phone use around your kids,
which is something I'm working on.

Yeah.

Ali: That's what, I mean, we just
have boundaries around, just don't

have it at the dinner table or like,
you know, we're having a discussion.

Don't, you know, don't look
at your phone while we're

Joe: talking to each other.

Well, that

Ali: sort of thing, things like that.

So I don't Yeah, those sorts of, but
yeah, and that's where I'm trying to

model that and not pull my phone out.

Well, yeah.

And, and so, and he's,
yeah, really good like that.

So I mean, yeah.

Joe: You have to admit your
phone is a lot more interesting

than your only child, though.

So, that's the illusion is the phone is
always more interesting than whatever's

in front of us, even our beloved children.

I agree.

I agree in it.

It's an illusion.

It's an illusion, but
it's, it's very pervasive.

And then the other, the real
sneaky one is I can have both.

I can have my beautiful daughters
in front of me and be engaging with

them, but also checking Instagram.

We kind of can't

Sam: really have both.

Well, this is what I was trying
to point us to just now with my

remarks, that what I'm trying to
get at is like, it's the dialectic.

So you, you know, you think you're landing
here, this is what actually happens.

And then that produces a
synthesis of the two things.

And so if we adopt a hypocritical
stance as parents in the effort

to, okay, I know I'm flawed, but
here's what you should live by.

What we actually transmit is hypocrisy.

Then, so we've got another
option, which is accept.

How we are, to a degree, and invoke
the good enough parent, Winnicott,

uh, that's really important.

Try to be real with our kids, you know,
so that's, that's another option or we

can engage in subterfuge and only do
our bad things when they're not looking.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which they always see through.

That's exactly right.

All parents do that

Ali: though.

You just wait till the kids have
gone to bed and that's when you put

on the things you want to watch.

That's when you watch Real Housewives.

Yeah.

And you eat all the snacks.

Yeah.

That's right.

And I don't

Joe: do any of that.

I think I'm a completely Joe lives

Sam: lives like an open book, he does.

I do, I think I

Joe: do.

Yeah, I like that a lot.

I mean, I don't,

Sam: you know.

I think the honesty approach is.

Is, it's the way to go.

I think it's

Joe: the, the, the, the book's been too
open in that they've met four girlfriends

in eight years and in the end Mm-Hmm.

In the, in the final analysis.

None of the, that never needed to happen.

No.

But the Okay.

For example, that's probably,
it's probably my biggest regret.

Okay.

Interesting.

A single dad is just to go too
soon on the meet the girlfriend.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Uh, just 'cause I've made that, I
mean, it feels like the kind of stuff

that's gonna come up in therapy later.

Mm-Hmm.

like.

You know, it feels, it has that
tone about it of like, well, we

did meet all these girlfriends.

Sam: What about Byron Bay person?

Did they meet her?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Well, look, on the other hand,
again, it's the dialectic.

You think what was transmitted
was, oh boy, look at loose old dad

with his string of girlfriends.

But also you gotta, what, what actually
So, you've got a one dimensional

idea of what was transmitted there.

I'm not saying it because

Joe: it's immoral, I
think it's because it's

Sam: confusing.

Confusing, sure.

That's it.

No, no, I get that.

But I think the other thing that was
transmitted, though, was that you

had a degree of control over that
situation, and maybe some of it, okay,

you brought them in too soon, okay?

On the other hand, you ended
all of those relationships, and

you modelled an example, I would

Joe: not say And there was no
fighting in front of the kids with any

Sam: of those partners.

And you modelled a good example,
a good enough Viable example of a

person making a better decision.

And I think that, that example of
mistake, better decision is much more

powerful than I must avoid errors as a
parent and show what perfection looks

Joe: like, because that
is a deadly, deadly trap.

It would have been pretty buttoned
down to have a complete bright line

between anyone I dated and my kids,
even though I dated them for, say,

six months, to say you can never meet.

There's a pressure that's created of
like, well, why can't I meet your kids?

Well, so the

Sam: artificiality on both sides.

So yeah, that's right.

So, and also they might express at
some point, wait a minute, are you

trying to conceal something here?

So you just have to negotiate
it the whole way through.

There's

Joe: no rules.

Anyway, so that's the stuff that we're
transmitting, whether we want to or not.

I don't know what you're transmitting.

It sounds like you're trying to limit
your phone use and stuff, but you also

have, like I said, quite a conscious,
some very conscious ideas about trying

to transmit something that's not, say,
heteronormative or whatever, right?

Sam: Well, I'll start
with where it all began.

So with the first baby, and I said to
all the, you know, extended family and

grandparents and stuff, okay, I just
have two things that I want to, lay down.

I tried to lay down something.

And what, so I've got two very, two
things that are very important to me.

One, can we please keep them away
from sugar for as long as possible?

Like refined sugar.

And can we not gender them any more than
society and consumption is going to do?

Like, we don't need to add to that.

It's going to come in hot
and strong, no matter what.

So it, you know, you go to K Mart
or, you know, Big W or whatever,

and you walk the toy aisles.

It is, it's apartheid South Africa, boy
stuff over here, girl stuff over here.

It's outrageous.

And they pick that up.

They know what's what.

We've had a hundred years of
modern advertising since Freud's

nephew invented it, basically.

And we've got a very well established
science of influence and market

segmentation, audience segmentation,
and so on, and they get segmented,

they get diced and sliced.

In two seconds, by those forces, and the
only thing parents can really do there,

apart from, you know, try and keep them
out of Big W, is We don't need to add

to that by validating those signals.

We, we don't need to go, here,
here's a gun for the boy and

here's a Barbie for the girl.

Like, sorry, I know Barbie's a hot
property right now, but I think we've been

conned to a slight degree by some of that.

It's, that particular property
is not the only problem.

Lego does it.

everyone's doing it.

And guess what?

The first toy company or children's
IP that doesn't play the gender game.

is going to lose, and they're
going to lose market over it.

These kids want to be marketed to
according to gender for the most part.

So, if, let's say, you know,
Disney decided, oh, well, yeah,

we're going to like, go gender
neutral with all our IP from now

on, it wouldn't work commercially.

And as much as the right are
freaking out about the culture

industry, uh, destabilizing
heteronormativity, bugger off.

Heteronormativity is alive and well.

Joe: It is going strong.

Gender reveal parties only started
happening in the last 10 years,

as far as I can tell, with pink
and blue balloons and shit.

Yeah.

Sam: Where do they come from?

Gender is being reified more.

Gender's fine.

Yeah, gender is going

Joe: strong.

Gender's not going anywhere, and
whatever you tried to do in that regard

would have had close to zero influence.

Ali: Uh, no.

No, it's like, cause we did, it was
quite similar with, with our boy in

that, like, yeah, it wasn't, We had
only a couple of rules and one was no

hitting, like, like, no parent, like,
no grandparent giving them a whack,

like, that's just not happening.

Like both great, both sets of grandparents
tried to, and we would both shut down

very quickly that that was not okay.

And we were not doing that.

And the other one was around toys
are toys and there's no, he can

play with whatever he wants with.

The girl

Sam: should play with guns too.

I

Ali: do believe that.

And like, and he has always
gravitated towards dress ups and

make believe and you know, and,
and Barbies and things like that.

It's fun.

It's fun.

And I remember when he was like,
Three, and the, you know, he's just

starting to really talk and he's
got up on Santa's knee because, you

know, what do you want for Christmas?

And he asked for a Barbie
camper van and a blonde wig.

They'll like, they'll be just, and
so, and I remember my parents, like

my dad being quite at the time.

Affronted.

Yeah.

Just like, why?

You know, why would you buy him that?

And I was like, well, every other
kid, you know, who's obviously

parents are, you know, able to
afford to buy, you know, their kids.

presents, you know, the kid who
asked for Lego is going to get Lego.

The kid who wants a bike
is going to get a bike.

And why can't he have a wig?

Cause he wants to dress up like that.

This doesn't matter.

Like, you know, it's a
toy, toys, toys, toys.

And you know, that was a huge thing.

Clothes, clothes, clothes that clothes.

And, you know, he always gravitated
towards those sorts of things and

to bright cut, like, you know,
and it wasn't because yeah, it

was in any sort of gendered thing.

It's just, that's the things
he enjoyed playing with.

And so.

My, I mean, my parents have definitely
come around, but that took a really

long time and they were much better
with the, the second lot with the, my

nephews, you know, in like, you know,
that they'll buy them dolls and things

like that because, you know, kids
like to play with all sorts of things.

It's, you know, it's the kids, right?

Yeah.

Um,

Sam: Oh, I played with dolls too.

It

Joe: was also, what is the value that
you're trying to pass on to your children?

Ali: They don't have to be limited or
restricted to playing only with Lego

because you're a boy or you only get to
play with toy cars because you're a boy.

Or you're only allowed to play
with Barbies if you're a girl.

Like I very much grew up
in a house where it was.

Barbies and dolls and, you
know, girly things, having

a sister and no boys around.

So, and I was not that kind of kid.

I very much gravitated towards, I
was a bit of a tomboy or whatever.

And so I, you know, I wanted to, you
know, I wanted to play with dinosaurs

and, you know, and space thing.

That was my thing.

I was space and dinosaurs.

That was the stuff I wanted to, you know,
and would talk at kids, you know, about.

But yeah, I was not so much a Barbie kid.

And then, you know, my
son, like, you know.

I mean, and I, and I feel terrible
for thinking this, but I remember

when I was pregnant, I was like, Oh
my God, yes, someone is going to play

Lego with me and all these things.

He was never really into Lego
as much as he was into Barbies.

He just really loved.

Yeah.

Cause.

And, and I mean, but at the same time
I was like, well, I'm not going to deny

him, the toys he wants to play with.

Like he always, yeah.

From a really young age, he'd always
had Barbies and toys like that because

that's as soon as he could ask for
those things, that's what he asked for.

So yeah, I think that's really.

Like you said, they're going to be
marketed to, from a really young age.

And I think we were, we were lucky in that
we were quite protective of that to, to

a point, as long as, you know, we could.

And then, you know, obviously
it's at school and kinder.

Those sorts of things, yeah.

That's right,

Sam: I forgot to say, yeah, sugar,
screens and advertising, limit those

as much as possible in the early
years and it will pay off hugely,

like, it's going to creep in anyway.

So what's

Joe: next then Sam, you've done
that to the best of your ability,

now the youngest one's five,
you've got two years left to shape.

Then you've shaped the other
one as best as you can to seven.

Mm hmm.

We've done

Sam: it.

Mm hmm.

Well, well, let's say that I'm the
thing the larger thing I'm pointing to

with all these examples of you know,
sugar and Gendering and all of this.

It's not really about those things
in particular what it's about It's

about freedom in a meaningful sense
like not just individual freedom,

but actually Putting in place The
intellectual and physical substrata

you need to actually have something
resembling meaningful freedom.

So the assault of advertising,
the effect of sugar on behaviour

and so on, and gendering.

To me, all of that is counter to freedom.

And people will say, oh, but they love it.

Okay, but there's actually
a compulsion here.

And where there's compulsion,
there's a lack of freedom.

So I think one of the big things that
was driving my parenting was trying to

avoid addiction pathways, basically.

So I think that's, you know,
for you, you wanted to avoid the

violence and things like that.

Totally fair.

And it sounds like that
effort was very successful.

It remains to be seen, you know, how
successful my efforts to, at the very

least, avoid Cultivating addiction
pathways within the kids, if I could

help it, and there's a lot of great
science on this, lots of screen and

lots of sugar early on, helps build
those addiction pathways later.

Now, the addiction pathways are
there, though, anyway, so you can't

just have a, you can't just keep
the environment sanitary, right?

What you, this prohibition First
phase, that led eventually into a more

realistic assessment of, well, these
influences are going to be there.

Now I have to help them to navigate
it and moderate sort of use.

Yeah, I have to help them with moderation.

Am I in a position to
help them with moderation?

Oh, what do I need to
learn about moderation?

So this is what I really want to say.

I actually went from going, I'm
going to control the environment

and then I'm going to transmit this.

Now, I've given up.

On that second one, I still think
it's worth trying to control

the environment to a degree.

But what I now, I'm on my focus 90% of the
time, is trying to be in the moment with

them and to negotiate the things as they
arise and then just listen and respond.

And now look, actually, I don't
think at any point I said, here,

sit down and listen to this music.

I've actually never done that.

My left wing environmental politics
and gender politics have come

in just, but fairly organically.

I haven't lectured or laid it out, given
them a manifesto to live by, but I have

tried to actually more and more over time
be led by their interests and so whatever

they get into, I get into it as well and
learn about it and see the value in it

and then just try to sort of maximize.

The good stuff that's coming
out of Pokemon or coming out of,

dolls, you know, or whatever.

And so the thing I'm really trying to
transmit is, people working together

to help each other through this
difficult and fascinating journey.

That's, that's really the value
that I'm trying to transmit.

I don't actually have universal,
long lasting, permanent

answers that I can give them.

Do I?

No.

We'd never

Ali: say it.

But like, yeah, no, I think
that's, it's very similar.

And like, I remember my son's
father saying that there, and I

Sam: say sorry a lot.

Forgetting things wrong.

And I say, here's what I
got wrong and here's why.

And here's what I'm going to
try and do better next time.

So yeah.

Yeah.

And

Ali: I say learning to
apologize in front of your kid.

That's a huge, that was a huge thing.

And yeah, I do it all the time.

Yeah.

Like I, yeah, I do too.

And like, it's never something
I heard growing up, but my son's

father, I remember him saying
that like, there are enough.

Pricks and assholes in the world.

, we don't wanna be putting Yeah.

Like another one out there.

That was like our
biggest goal was Oh yeah.

We just didn't want to
raise an asshole as a child.

Oh man.

And so that, so important.

Like that was and yeah, for their sake.

For God's sake, yeah.

For, yeah.

And like everyone else.

And I'm enormously proud of
him and like, and my kid is.

You know, and every parents, you know,
yeah, like, you know, my child's amazing.

And I love, you know, they say this
and that or whatever, but like I, it

is, it has been constantly reinforced.

Like, Oh you, his mom, like, you
know, you know, he came up to me,

you know, my little preppy and was
helped him, you know, the other day,

you know, get to class or whatever.

And like, he's always been that kid
that's always stepped in to help.

And I think like, that's
the thing I'm most proud of.

That's what you want to see.

Yeah.

I remember this one time.

and he came up to me and he had this
like box of like biscuits and there was

a sticker on the top and it said free
and I was like what the, what is this?

And like he's like the lady at the bakery
gave me to them I was like Like, what?

Like, what do you, why on earth would
she give you this box of biscuits?

Anyway.

What sorcery is this?

Yeah.

So I walked past the bakery and I
was like, did you give these to him?

And she was like, Oh yeah, he
comes in here every morning before

school and has a chat to me.

And he's always so polite.

And she goes, I had
these leftover biscuits.

And so I just thought
I'll give them to him.

Like that is my kid.

Like he's, he's that nice, kind,
sociable, lovely little kid.

And so I think that, yeah.

I just didn't ever, yeah, like, you
know, and that's not to say he can't

be an arsehole or can't be a prick, you
know, all teenagers, yeah, I want him

to be able to bite back or to say stuff
or like, you know, to pull people up.

But for the most part, he is
such a jet, like a kind kid.

And that was his dad and I, that was such
a huge thing for us is that we wanted to

put another kind person out there because,
and it's not all about him all the time.

And I think there's this misconception.

Particularly too, with only
children being Oh, for sure.

Selfish or, yeah.

You know that they're not, you
know, community minded or Well,

you've done your best to, yeah.

Like, we've really tried to be that.

It's, it's not just
about you all the time.

Like, you know, whether it was in the
family dynamic that was, you are one of

three, or if you're in the big family,
like, you know, it's what, you're one

of 10 or you're in the class, you're
one of 25, your whole life shouldn't

Sam: be determined just by that.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

It's

Ali: just, you know, you,
you are a part of, yeah.

Mm-Hmm.

I

Joe: feel like kindness is
the universal value that most

people talk about the most now.

Yeah, I think that's a huge
thing in the culture, focus on

Sam: hashtag kindness.

And again, I don't think
kindness is a simple matter.

I'll

Ali: say.

And it's hard to be kind sometimes.

Like sometimes you don't want to
be kind or it doesn't feel natural

Sam: to be kind.

And sometimes what we think is
kindness is actually unhelpful and

Ali: vice versa.

So, you know, it's.

learning the nuance around that.

What's a better value

Joe: than kindness?

I don't

Sam: think there is a, if we
have to pick a single bloody

word, yeah, then that one's fine.

Probably the best one, isn't it?

Look, I

Joe: think any, I think any, simplest
sense without complicating it.

I'm all

Sam: about dialectic.

Any single word philosophy
is faulty at its core.

It just doesn't matter.

What does dialectic mean?

That everything exists in
relation to other things.

So what does kindness mean?

Well, what are we defining it against?

Capitalism.

Well, sure.

Okay.

But when we say You know, sometimes you
see, be kind and it's delivered through

gritted teeth, you know what I'm saying?

So, yeah,

Ali: there's no point in
just pretending to be kind or

giving the face of being kind.

You have to actually be

Sam: kind.

Actual kindness.

There's a slogan or real kindness or I

Ali: don't know.

Wanted and appreciated like this,
you know, you could be trying to be

kind to somebody who it's absolutely
not appropriate to be kind in that

Joe: moment.

See, my 14 year old has an edge to
her, which I recognize as my own.

And I like that edge, but a 10 year old
would have no idea how to do anything

Sam: other than be kind.

So you want to critique kindness also?

That's good.

That's a healthy instinct.

Not

Joe: really.

I mean, I was still strongly, and
I've been talking to her about,

you know, difficult politics with,
you know, people at her school.

I've emphasized that you need to be kind
to people like, even if they're not kind

to you, you, like as hard as that is,
or if you can't be kind back to them,

go and find someone else and be kind to
them, but don't turn it into a flame war,

Sam: you know, resentment,
avoid resentments.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um,

Joe: there's that one again.

But I, look, I thought
about this topic all week.

Oh good.

And, which I know you don't
do Sam, but, I think about

Sam: everything all the time,

Joe: um, but no, you're right.

And in terms of what I most want
to pass on to my kids, it is to be

very curious about the nature of
consciousness and be very curious

about what this is you're experiencing
and don't let it be defined for you.

As you are an individual.

with a certain identity, having
a certain finite experience.

I know, we're in complete
agreement on that.

Stay open to the openness of consciousness
and start to learn how open it is

and realize That you're not, things
are not what they first seem, and you

need to explore that, and re explore
that, and have experiences with that.

That's what I most want to pass on
to my children, which is why I gave

Scarlet the power of now, because
it encapsulates it very well.

About coming into the present moment as
a spiritual practice, and then having

a profound experience of consciousness.

As a sort of God consciousness,
I guess, which is open, which

is what everyone's having.

It's just, most people never recognize it.

Well, that's what

Sam: my mother was trying to transmit
to me as well, pretty much exactly.

The, the value of compassion and kindness
and the, uh, cultivate God consciousness.

That's what she was trying
to get across to me.

And that all religions were on
the same page in most respects.

And that everybody walks a hard road
and, you know, kindness and God is

how we're going to get through this.

And yeah, you and her would have
gotten along famously, I'm sure.

And well now, but not 10 years ago.

Maybe

Joe: not.

Oh God, no.

Not when I was a hardline

Sam: atheist.

No.

Yeah.

No, but you guys would have had a
great time talking about pantheism

and syncretism and meditation and, you
know, mantra and prayer and all of that.

And you know, she played That's

Joe: the stuff, the consciousness
expansion stuff is the stuff I wish I'd

found earlier and a spiritual life I wish
I'd found much, much earlier in my life.

Uh, you know, the last episode I was kind
of berating Ali to try and get her to at

least open the door just a little bit to
all of this, you know, but you can't, and

I can't do it with my children either,
like they might both be hardline atheists.

I've got good

Sam: news, Joe, I've
detected, I've not had to.

Get my oldest to like, you know,
probably open the doors of perception,

Aldous Huxley, and you know, critique
conceptual reality and connect with the

divine and the one, he, he just does it.

Like he comes out with, yeah,
he just comes out with stuff and

I'm like, oh yeah, you get it.

I don't really need to tell you anything.

Like, he asks the kind of questions, I'm
like, no, no, you've You've got this.

The only time I have to,
maybe it was like, Oh, okay.

Some of these questions are heavy.

Like you don't need to hold them heavily.

Like, you know, it's okay.

These questions are, they're
no, they're actually not

heavier than any other question.

Like what to have for dinner.

Now that's a heavy question.

You know, if the universe
would have existed, if, you

know what, what's for dinner.

Now that's a hard question, you know, but
all these questions are one, is what I'm

saying, but you're asking the right ones.

You know, good kid.

and certainly that, and it points back
to that thing I was trying to say earlier

about like avoiding the simplistic
and, living with others in connection

and living in connection to concepts
as all just connections rather than

absolute things that stand on their own.

And so for me, the point of all that
is the practice of meaningful freedom.

And you're looking for that in
a spiritual direction, which is.

Not a bad, uh, instinct and me, I'm kind
of maybe looking at it a little bit more

materialistically, but not entirely.

Like I'm really interested
in phenomenology and

Joe: psychology.

So hang on, you want your
children to experience maximum

freedom in their lifetimes?

I

Sam: mean, meaningful freedom.

I mean, to live the kind of lives
where they're making conscious

choices based on reflection on
experience and not just being driven

by desires and fears constantly.

Joe: So you assume that they have

Sam: free will?

Uh, it is an axiomatic, I'm putting
the axiom in there, but I'm really

avoiding the issue to a degree.

Yeah.

As much as, look, I've got a couple
of very brilliant friends, including

you that I have destroyed free will in
front of me many times, but I stubbornly

Joe: persist with the illusion of it.

It's another one of those
useful illusions, I think.

I agree.

It's hard to run any other operating
system, so even though it's not

real, you may as well just act
as if you have choices, you know.

And I certainly experience things
as if I'm making decisions.

Whether I could ever have made a
different decision, I'll never know.

Sam: Well, correct, because what
we're both pointing to here is

a functional common morality.

And like, we can't, I don't understand
how you're supposed to operate.

Joe: That's why I don't think
kindness is actually that complicated,

because generally we know the
difference between right and wrong.

Sam: That's one thing,
okay, but also So, the

Joe: morality, I would

Sam: say, is I have to
make sure the conscience

Joe: develops properly.

The morality is, for most of us, is
pretty hardwired and, you know, we

Ali: Yes, yes.

No, but the sense of right and wrong
will very much come from the things

that you experience and observe and
what you're told is right and wrong.

Joe: For teenagers, we'll have a
stronger sense of it than we will.

yeah, yes, true.

Why they often speak with such
clarity on things like climate change.

Yes.

Like, well, this is wrong.

Sam: Yes.

But again, but they're shaped and guided
by the discourse around them as well.

Cause you have

Ali: like, yeah, somebody who's
grown up, say in like a far right.

Christian, you know, white
nationalist kind of experience.

They will feel

Sam: very strongly that
homosexuality is bad.

Yeah, exactly.

It will invoke that same sense of justice.

So the

Joe: way that Adam says right and
wrong aligns with your values?

Ali: Yeah, very similar.

I mean, we do have disagreements.

Joe: Yeah, you guys are probably right.

Yeah.

Maybe it's not hard wired.

Maybe it's just conditioned

Sam: into them.

I think the chemical pathways are the
biological substrate, but then the inputs.

The

Ali: inputs are different.

Yeah.

Is Adam quite woke?

Joe: Yes, like me.

Yeah.

Hell woke.

Yes.

Yeah.

But, but he's also Are you
a self identifier as woke?

Yeah.

Ali: But like I think he's also

Joe: He might be the
only person in the world.

Okay.

No, but

Ali: like as in

Sam: like The original meaning
of woke Joe was exactly the thing

you're talking about, being aware
that reality's not simple and

Ali: you know.

And I just, I don't know.

I mean, yeah, I think he's, but
I think he's got a bit more of a

nuanced take than I'd say your average

Sam: woke.

Yeah.

He's not a libtard.

Is

Joe: politics essentially
identity politics?

Sam: No, no, I would say
he's more of a socialist.

Yeah, he's

Ali: a socialist.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

So he

Sam: working class is
the identity you need.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ali: So no, I think,
yeah, he's proletariat.

He's very, very much.

Yeah.

And very well read on it
and, and interested in it.

Sam: Oh yeah.

They're going to kick some shit off

Ali: those guys.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I feel really
hopeful like I, and yeah.

And it's, and like I said, I think
it comes from a considered place.

I don't think he's just parroting news
that he's heard from either his parents

or from what he's heard at school.

I think he's very much.

The kind of kid who will want to,
you know, it has been also raised.

I think we have tried to, to question
things and to, you know, to do your own

research and come to your own conclusion.

And I feel like Critical kindness.

There we go.

Critical kindness.

Yeah, very much.

Like I think he's been, and feels
confident enough, you know, when he,

yeah, there have been things that
he's like, Oh, I mean, I don't know

how I feel about that or like, yeah.

And you know, or is this right?

Or not just.

For the sake of it, but for the
genuine, what is the right, you

know, way to move forward with this.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sam: That's one way I try to help is to
like, try and get the kids, cause this is

the thing I've been learning only myself
more recently, try and stop and notice

like what's happening inside me right now.

Like, um, um, oh, oh, okay.

Okay.

Oh, how does that feel right now?

Like, are you experiencing
confusion or doubt?

Like, okay, what's that like?

What are some of the
things you're reaching for?

Like, what are your first thoughts?

Okay, do you have any others?

All right, now let's sort
through those and, you know,

developing those sort of habits.

That's what, that's what I'm getting
at with the freedom thing, that we're

not just slaves to our trauma or our
conditioning or psychosis or neurosis

Joe: and like Yeah, I mean, what's coming
to me if I had to sum it up pithily

would be, be, stay curious and stay kind.

Yeah, that's great, yeah, that works.

You know The

Ali: curious, I think, is
actually really important.

Like, to question and to be
curious and to be involved.

I think that's, that's really important.

Joe: I was curious, except for
On matters of spirituality, I

think that's where I was close.

I had a closed door now, like all
atheists, otherwise you're an agnostic.

If you've closed the door,
then you're an atheist.

I agree with that.

And you're no longer curious.

And when you have, when you start having
spiritual experiences, it's going to

Sam: be a shock.

Now, but can I ask a more probing
question about that, though?

Were you not curious?

You've just said you
weren't curious about it.

Now, is that the kind of curiosity
that comes from an atheist?

A complete absence of any understanding
that there's something interesting

there or a conscious decision.

There's nothing interesting

Joe: there.

I don't look, I would encourage my kids to
take LSD, not now, but when they're older,

Sam: 25,

Ali: 28, 35,

Sam: 40,

Joe: 40, because that was probably the
most profound thing I learned under

the age of 21 was what I saw on LSD.

And I guess that was the part of

Sam: Neurological development doesn't
really stop at any point, but there's

a lot of development still going on up

Joe: 14 take LSD, I'm saying

Sam: Up to 28, brain development.

Profound.

Joe: If you're going to be curious,
there is no Better eight hours you

can spend than a large dose of LSD.

Sam: But no, but there's
so many ways to get there.

Joe: Like, I'll take that to my grade.

It's fascinating.

I don't think you should do it all

Sam: the time.

Okay, but what can we do now with 10
year olds, for example, or 14 year olds?

Joe: Well, get them to, you know, read a
book instead of bloody looking at their

Sam: iPad.

For sure, read a book, but also
just natural, just good old Socratic

dialogue, natural philosophy.

You know, get the glass of
water, put a stick in it.

Hey kids, what do you notice?

Oh.

The stick is bent.

What the hell's going on there?

So that's the observation that
Descartes makes at the beginning

of Meditations on First Philosophy.

That all sounds really hard to understand.

It's not.

It's a very simple book.

At the end of the day, he just
says, look, notice that the senses

have misled you on this occasion.

Does this happen?

In other things can we trust the senses
ultimately what is the basis of knowledge?

Joe: You're a teacher I'm not

Sam: Anyone can put a stick
in a glass of water and say

Joe: what's going on?

I just don't engage with my kids that way
or the way that Ali engages with her kid,

but Something I'm getting something right.

I agree Yeah, we're playing my natural
game and my natural game is kind of

like the father on the armchair But
that is a very If you take away the

patriarchal baggage of that, that's a
very stable thing in two girls lives,

is this steady, present, father figure,
but I don't get down so much on their

level, and I never have, I've never,
I've never done all those things you read

about in the parenting books that make
for great parenting, but I've ended up

with kids Yeah, who really love me and
I really love them and we have a great

relationship and they're great kids.

I mean, I've been reading
their reports this week.

They're objectively pretty great
kids and they're well socialized

and And their mom has done
probably about 80 percent of that.

So, so that's the other things for
the last eight years I've actually

been in and even before that because
I was the main breadwinner I've always

only had to play the bit part role.

Mm hmm But the shock when
Scarlet started reading that

book was ah, I'm not I matter.

I actually matter to these children.

I am influencing them.

And that's a delusion that I walk
around with a lot, which is that

I kind of almost don't exist.

Oh, sure.

Right?

So that's, now I'm just like,
it was a real slap in the face.

Like, fuck, okay.

And then it was exciting because
it's like, oh, maybe I can find

some other books and hand them.

And then, like you said,
talk about the ideas.

I started talking to Scarlett about
the ideas in The Power of Now and And,

and she said, well, I've always said
dad, everything happens for a reason.

I'm like, you never
said that to me before.

And I was like, I had to go
away and think about that.

Sam: So what were her first takeaways from
the, like, what was like, do you remember

anything she said early on in reading it?

Joe: No, she's, I mean, she's still just
starting out reading it, but she, it

Sam: just struck a chord
with her immediately.

It's the kind of thing

Joe: you either, you're either
interested or you're not.

If you're interested, then
you're on a certain track.

Agreed.

Because that book is pretty all
encompassing, it basically says If you

get what I'm saying, then the rest of
your life is basically an illusion.

All that really matters is
your present moment experience.

And that present moment experience
is an incredibly profound one.

Everything else, your entire future
and your entire past, is a complete

illusion and you need to drop it.

Like radically, just completely drop it.

Oh

Sam: man, that's what my wife's father
was Very, very keen to transmit to, you

know, his children and, you know, they
all turned out resolutely pragmatic

and not especially interested, uh, Oh,
my beloved father in law who passed

away three years ago, three years
ago, actually, you know, shortly.

And you know, he, cause he, he had a very
difficult, you know, a set of difficult

experiences after, you know, leaving
his home country and moving to Australia

and, you know, experiencing a loss of
status and, you know, but showed him.

I think a marvellous role model of
like just trying things and just going,

I'm going to start this business.

I'm going to do this and a lot of, a
lot of cool or interesting things that

he tried and, you know, sure, not all
of them succeeded, but, and then he

discovered Buddhism, meditation in the,
in the eighties, as a lot of people did.

And, uh, you know, worked through, You
know, things that were holding him back,

his personal development, and then really
was keen to pass that on to the kids.

Cause this is the other thing,
when does this process end?

So in his, it doesn't.

So in his, the last 10 years of his
life, he was, I would say working

harder than ever, but in a more subtle
way to like influence and like bring

something positive from like all that
wisdom you've gained after, you know,

it's like, he was constantly saying
that to me over, over lunch or dinner.

Oh Sam, there is no You
know, there is no past.

You know that, don't you?

And I'm like, no, no,
that's, that's not a fact.

That's a useful way of
looking at things though.

And he's like, no, no, no, it's true.

There is no past.

Like, there is no future.

He was just hammering away at me.

This is

Joe: something that only humans
have ever invented that aren't,

that are two complete illusions.

And, and I think he was
just And so much anxiety and

Sam: pain.

He was driven by compassion.

He really, yes.

You can just drop it all.

That's what he was Sky's
off the past and the future.

Exactly.

He was looking at me and seeing the
guilt and the pain and the shame, and

he was responding with compassion.

And he was like, here's
what you need to know.

And the monkey, there's a monkey in
your brain and it's torturing you.

Just tell the monkey to be quiet.

There's no past, there's no

Joe: future.

I was like, wow.

That the power of now gets in
and, and meditation, hopefully in

for Scarlet is the balm that she
needs if her mental health does.

Take knocks, and she does
struggle with things and anxiety.

Yes, you need protective.

Does come together and
depression does come for her.

The answer is going to be to
come into the present moment.

Yes, you know, and appreciate
what's right in front of you.

That's the only answer to come
out of depression and anxiety.

Sam: Oh, 100%.

No, I agree completely.

And that was what one of the things
that really helped me was, I mean, I

was terrified at the present moment,
basically did not want to be there

and As I gradually began to recover,
and who knows which, you know, which

thing comes first, or it all happens
at the same time, but gradually going,

I actually can tolerate the present.

Not only that, there are possibilities
in the present that don't exist

in the past or the future.

Yeah.

All of them.

All of them.

There are no possibilities elsewhere.

And that was cool.

And dad tried to set me up with
that as well when I was a kid.

And I think that, eventually it did get
through at a time when it was needed.

So.

You know, we can try and prepare
them as best we can, I suppose.

Hopefully.

But

Joe: it's interesting, isn't it?

Yeah.

Like, that's how Western way is.

A book is what's going to transmit.

You still have the written word, you know.

Sam: I'm much more about the dialogue,
the dialectic, the bouncing it back and

Joe: forth.

Well, wait till your kids can
read an adult book though,

you might be quite excited.

Sam: But that's what all those old
Greek books are, they're all dialogues.

Like, written down,

Joe: but like, now is actually a dialogue.

Yeah, there you go.

There's someone asking questions all

Sam: the way through.

Yeah.

Look, I won't dismiss books.

I don't want to be Sam's
famous anti book stance.

Um, I think what I'm more pointing
at is that like a linear text

can really work like here, sit
down, read the power of now.

I, that's a good move for sure.

But I think where the power really
lies is batting it back and forth

and like turning it into something.

I

Joe: would say that the
power lies in practice.

It agreed.

Yeah.

And it is.

So for me, so still the Buddhist
practices, which will get me

most into the present moment.

Like most meditators, I know it's
just real struggle to do them

with any discipline and rigor.

Like the things that come and go and then
you do them and it's always so good that

afterwards, just like the gym, you're
like, Oh, I got to do that more often,

you know, but you don't, you just don't.

So yeah, I think we can probably
wrap it up quite productively.

Sam: And we shout out to my dad,
his wise friend, Bill Hicks,

who passed away a few years ago.

He always used to say, at the
end of a wise chat between the

two of them, Yep, but does it
change what you do in the morning?

Joe: Your dad was friends with Bill Hicks?

No, different Bill Hicks.

Different Bill Hicks, but also American?

Sam: He was basically a similar
guy in a few ways, yeah.

Right.

Yeah, he was a tripper, and a
truth teller, and a crazy man.

Does it change what you're
doing in the morning?

Does it

Joe: change what you do in the morning?

I've been told that the way you wake up,
the state you wake up in emotionally,

is your true spiritual condition.

Oh God.

Whoa.

Mine is terrible.

Sam: Mine's a worry.

I've

Joe: steadily improved.

Let's hope that's not true though.

Oh God.

Let's just cut that out.

Sam: No, no, leave it in.

We need to keep it real for everyone else.

Keep it real for the kids, you know,
but like, my consciousness started off

bad today and it's steadily improved.

I want to say that.

Joe: So, um.

That's every day for me, pretty much.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think we should wrap it up.

That's right.

Does everyone want to find a
word on what they want to pass

on to their children, Ali?

No, I think

Ali: we've really, no, I'm just.

Joe: Sounds like you've
already perfected your child.

Ali: My child is

Sam: perfect now.

Ali gets four points.

He's

Joe: like, what are you going to pass on?

He's cooked.

Ali: He's done.

I'm pretty much done.

Like, I'm just hanging out till he's 18.

No, I just, I feel, I don't know.

I, it's one of the few things in my life
that I, I'm genuinely proud of that I

haven't fucked up, because I fucked up
just about everything else, but I don't

feel like I fucked him up yet, or at
least not enough that he's, you know, that

Joe: it's a worry.

Sam said you pass at seven, at
seven years old you're done.

Oh, no, no, no, I,

Sam: that was my original view.

But then like, and I think there's
a lot in it, but what I eventually

came to was like, oh, it's never
too late to make adjustments.

Like we can't give up here on the present.

Ali: No, and I think, yeah,
even watching Don't you

Joe: find you're just watching them
emerge though, rather than sculpting them?

Oh God, that's

Sam: what I'm saying.

Ali: Yeah, yeah, it is.

It's

Sam: both.

Joe: Like they come with so much pre
programmed personality, it's like

Ali: fucking hell.

It's just more just nudging, a little
nudging in the right direction if

things feel a little bit like Yeah.

Yeah.

Sam: Nudging, holding, loosening,
boundaries sometimes, hard

Joe: boundaries sometimes.

I don't know, I mean, I don't know your
five year old Sam, but the couple of

times she's come out here I was like,
oh, no one's telling that kid what to do.

Oh, no, no, you're right.

She's kind of like the wild kid.

No, no, she's

Sam: incredibly strong willed, yes, yes,
I, I admire it greatly and it defeats

me occasionally, often, every day.

Ali: No, I think there's, there's
something for willful children, I think

it's actually a wonderful quality.

I'm

Sam: not going to crush it out of
her, but I am going to try and, um,

Ali: shift you, yeah.

It's trying to channel it into
a way that's actually really

productive and good and, yeah.

Useful and helpful rather,
because it can be like, yeah, your

greatest asset, but also yeah.

Sam: Totally.

Yeah.

If I, if I tried to meet her unstoppable
force with an immovable object,

it's just going to produce neurosis.

Like, I don't want to do that.

It's like, you have to, you're
going to have to find your way

through this willfulness yourself
and learn to take a suggestion from

someone else from time to time.

And you'll figure that out eventually.

I got it by 40, so.

You know, there's hope for her.

Yeah.

Well, uh, thanks everyone.

Thank you.

Joe: This has been
another one of the 10, 000

Sam: things.

Ooh.

Okay.

Now that's an outro.

Bye.

Ali: Bye.