The Ten Thousand Things

Sam: Last night.

The podcast saved my life.

As the song goes.

Well, not my life on this occasion,
but just a bit of insomnia.

Um, pods have been there for
the old insomnia, many times.

And so I'd like to thank
the medium of podcasting.

For that.

For carrying me through some, helping
me through some difficult times.

Uh, helping me to connect to things that.

I needed to learn.

Or realize.

And really just connecting
me to other people.

And to life itself.

And.

It's not an exaggeration.

To say.

Therefore.

That I might not be here today.

If it wasn't for this medium.

My mother used to listen to.

The radio a lot, particularly when
she was, you know, Going through it.

But just all the time, you
know, in the car at home.

Doing.

The house work, which he had a lot of.

And I also listened to it
during the housework walking.

And.

Just at those times when I need to relax.

Connect.

I was listening to so many pods at
one point that I actually had to.

Scale it back and realize
that it was actually a getting

in the way of connecting.

And I was filling myself with
other people's thoughts and I

actually needed to listen to my own.

But there is definitely a happy
medium and it's somewhere around

15 to maybe 20 hours a week.

Maybe more.

It's certainly it's 10 to
one on screens or shows.

Because, you can keep your
hands free while you listen.

And.

You can get things done.

And in the middle of the night, you
don't want to be putting the screen on,

do you want to just listen to something?

Stories around the campfire.

So I wanted to thank some of those.

Shows those presenters that.

Were there.

Whether they knew it or not.

W they were there for people
in a very important way.

And of course they did know that.

It was one of the reasons they were going.

That's one of the reasons they kept going.

And that's why.

Adam Curry, the inventor
of podcasting among others.

Calls his listeners produces because.

In a very real way.

They help to ensure that a show
gets out and continues to get out.

Because.

That's what a producer does.

So just by listening,
you helped to produce it.

Knowing that someone.

Is hoping that this drops
on Wednesday morning.

So they can walk the dog or whatever.

That helps give me
reasons to make sure that.

You know, this happens
that I, that I get it done.

And of course, Joe and Allie are not here.

Uh, because we.

Didn't get one done this weekend,
too many things going on.

So I thought I'd just do
a little special solo.

And read some notes from listeners.

Thank Al producers.

In other words,

An essential.

Job.

So one of the many ways that listeners
help is not just by listening, but also

advocating for their favorite shows.

Telling people about them.

Advocating for the medium itself.

And.

In some cases sending in helpful notes
criticism, sometimes well-earned usually.

In fact, I don't think I've ever seen any
feedback that was not fair in some way.

And the critical notes.

Uh, probably more important, really.

Because.

To make a criticism shows that you care.

One way or the other.

And to offer praise also.

So I wanted to highlight
some of those contributions.

And on the theme of gratitude today.

Which is something that
I think I need right now.

And I.

I know a lot of you do too.

So here's a simple bit of feedback.

I'm listening to your podcast.

The other two were louder than you.

And it sounds like you have to
fight for your chance to speak.

So that was sent to Joe.

And, you know, That person.

Became a producer that day because.

I took that on board and
I really thought about it.

The next time we recorded.

And I think it made a difference.

So that's worth mentioning.

Shout out to that person.

And here's one from someone who's
been listening for a long time.

That was good.

The analogy of thoughts as clouds
passing in the sky is great.

My son struggles with
anxiety and fixation.

I think that's a good, simple way
to emphasize thoughts, come and go.

If I'm being snarky and cynical
attachment theory feels like

adding academic language to.

Some people are clingy heads.

Some people are loners.

But I get it's way more complicated and
understanding why you make the decisions

you do helps you be a better human.

Well, that's a pretty.

That's a pretty good summary of
what attachment theory can offer.

To us and what it's done for me.

Understanding why you do things is.

Essential.

And I've probably said it before, but.

Humans are a mystery to
themselves and to each other.

Unless we make the effort to understand.

And even then it's not a perfect thing.

Of course.

Even with the greatest effort
and the greatest intention.

And these theories are just
that they're just theories.

Some are more or less.

Proven or illustrated by
evidence and some are just ideas.

One of my favorites.

Erik Erikson's seven stages
of psychosocial development.

Not backed by.

Clinical studies, it doesn't need to be.

It's a useful idea, nonetheless.

Uh, attachment theory.

However, it does have a fair bit of.

Evidence to it.

But none of that is especially.

Useful or decisive one way or the other,
unless the, theory is grappled with.

Very carefully and seriously by
the people that are interested

in getting something from it.

And we shouldn't be looking just for.

Confirmation of what
we want confirmed and.

Things that comfort and Sue
this, we should be looking for

those more difficult insights.

The things we don't want to
say to ourselves or to others.

And I've heard a lot of that
good stuff being said on pods.

Because.

It's a medium, unlike any other.

What is a podcast it's just.

An audio file.

Connected to a text file.

Called an RSS feed, and that file just
says, here's the name of the show?

Here's the name of the episode?

Here's a description of the episode.

The people that appear on it,
et cetera, you know, metadata.

And then it points to a file.

And then you can listen
to that file anywhere.

On a browser.

In an app.

iTunes back in the day.

It means it's open it.

Can't be controlled and centralized
by technology platforms.

YouTube, which controls all
the video and Spotify, which is

attempting to control all of audio.

In the early days of RSS,
really simple syndication.

You may remember blogs,
they're still around.

And people would catch them.

In blog readers.

A very popular blog reader.

Was Google reader.

Google started offering free hosting.

For blogs.

And there.

Reader and their hosting
became very popular.

And then one day they
went, yeah, we're done.

With maintaining this product,
we don't care about it.

And it killed off blogging
as an open decentralized.

Medium

audio over RSS nearly
went the same way, but.

I came along a couple of years
after blogging and it didn't

quite get taken over by anybody.

Apple put the apple podcasts app
on every iPhone they sold and.

This ended up saving the medium in
a roundabout way and apple, continue

to maintain that app, even though it
doesn't make them any money, it's pretty

much the last cool thing that they do.

Just cause it's a good thing to do.

And.

I really want to emphasize this point
that there's something about just being

able to stick an audio file on a server.

And point to it.

In a text file and say here.

Come and grab it on whatever
thing you want to listen.

That we don't all get corralled.

Into technology platforms,
driven by algorithms.

And instead.

Everything that appears in my pod catcher.

On my phone.

Is what I asked to be there.

Nothing appears that I didn't ask for.

So an app I'd like to
recommend podcast guru.

It's got some great features.

Give it a shot.

It's available on both
your major phone kinds.

Anyway, back to.

The producers.

This is another one from a.

Uh, recent times.

I just know for myself, I had real
battles with my anxious attachment

style when it came to dating to.

And I found the more energy I poured into
things that used to bring me so much joy.

Writing music, dancing, baseball.

The more, I was able to create
safety and fulfillment for myself.

Like Sam was saying on the podcast
and the less I had to rely on

romantic connections for that high.

It took time.

But my experience has been that eventually
the passions I've nurtured for myself.

I've taken the place of that.

Anxious.

In my case, desperate search for a
positive kick from another person.

So if that's not an affirmation of why.

You know, it's worth doing the work.

I don't know what is.

So really it's not.

You know, like the old media.

You know, you hit print and it
goes out to millions of people.

You know, you turn on the mic
and you broadcast from a powerful

antenna and people receive it.

But there's not necessarily
a way to talk back.

But of course the invention of talkback
was essential to the survival of radio.

Calling into request a favorite
song or just to talk to a presenter.

This sustained many, many
people in difficult times.

Now radio is.

In.

Quite a lot of trouble
commercially, and it's groaning

under the weight of advertising.

And when you look at the digital
media landscape in general.

It's.

Either locked up in a platform.

Or it's groaning under display ads.

Trackers and all this sort of stuff.

Podcasting.

Audio over RSS is one of the few
remaining mediums that has not.

Gone that way.

So.

It allows things like this
to thrive and to exist.

Because it's relatively cheap.

And as I say, decentralized, And.

It enables a kind of.

More authentic connection.

Because you're not trying to juice
an algorithm because this medium

hasn't been algorithm of fired yet.

There's no way to game it.

You just have to make good stuff
and then hope that people will find

it, or you tell people about it.

And then they might tell
other people about it.

It's old school in that way.

One of the things that's missing though,
is an easy way for people to reach out.

So I have been thinking we
maybe just need to get like a.

Just a phone number that people
can text or call that might be fun.

And of course people are still sending
messages to Joe and Allie, a fair bit.

And occasionally me.

Here's another one.

Not bad.

I usually hate podcasts to be honest,
but there were lots of good points made.

Many of which I agreed with.

Nice work.

Great.

I listened to your podcast.

I did the attachment style test.

Apparently I am avoidant.

I would've said anxious, but there you go.

It's hard to answer when
not in a relationship.

I'm sure it switches to secure
with the right person, but

not immediately, I guess.

Thank you.

And here's one from a
very long time listener.

Pretty much from the beginning.

I found some of the conversation quite
confronting as it was a real reminder

of how much work I have to do still
to develop a secure attachment style.

That was kind of a downer for me.

But what I want to give more
thought to is the notion that was

touched on by the topic of you
are capable of secure attachment.

I'd like to further explore, develop
the idea of a secure attachment

relationship with myself, because
I'm not sure I can do adequate

vulnerability to create secure attachment
with another, without it actually.

Well, maybe digging further into my own
stuff is just another avoidance tactic.

Yeah, well, it's interesting.

Anyway, short story really enjoyed it.

Glad to hear you are back to weekly Epps.

Ooh.

Yes.

Little bit of.

A little bit of a.

Key piece of encouragement there.

Thank you.

You'll notice, I'm not
mentioning everybody's names.

Some of it's quite personal, but
you know, you know who you are.

So I did have a thought about this.

Maybe digging further into my own stuff
is just another avoidance tactics.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Perhaps, I think there's
some wisdom there.

It's certainly a danger.

And, you know, Taking.

Taking quizzes and taking on new
theories and inventorying yourself.

Yeah, it can be.

A fun hobby and diversion, and
God knows, I like to navel gaze.

But I don't.

I don't think it's an enormous danger of.

Th this level of reflection.

You know is part of your.

Daily life.

I think you're very much already
on that path where you can.

Take this.

You know, new knowledge and add to it
and develop it usefully for yourself.

You know, with the attachment theory
stuff, it's really important to.

Get beyond.

Uh, sort of going, oh,
in here is the answer.

What it's more about is I'm going to make.

I'm going to figure out the answers.

Myself using this theory.

And very.

That if that process is done the
right way, that it steers us away

from that sense of victim hood
and towards that sense of agency.

, one of the things I
mentioned in that F is that.

The theory.

Had been seized on by many people
with anxious attachment as a,

as a way of explaining the pain.

Anxiety.

They were experiencing in relationships.

And that's really, that's really good.

But it also became a way of saying.

You know, These avoidant types.

Uh , bad people and.

It's their fault.

That you know, they're making
me the anxious type, but, you

know, being the avoidant type.

Oh, well, and yeah, sure.

There's a little bit of dynamic there.

But, but ultimately.

That style pre-existed those
romantic relationships, you

know, that's the key point.

And so working through that.

As honestly, as we can is the key.

And look.

I've just indulged me here.

Forgive me.

You know, don't shoot the messenger.

I'm just reporting what
other people have said.

I thought you were all brilliant.

But just saying Sam really?

Sean.

Yeah.

And I wrote back, yes, he
had really done his research.

Plus he dug deep on the personal side,
plus he could see how it works outside

of romantic relationships and understood,
understand the childhood stuff.

Well, that's a very nice
compliment from Joe.

He's an essential element of getting
this whole thing going of just

really saying great idea, Sam.

So when, how let's go, go, go, go.

And.

You know, he's all the way through.

Had this, , obsessive drive towards it.

Which has really helped spur me along.

And.

You know, he's been so good
at just giving me just.

Flat honest.

Um, Feedback along the way,
which has been so valuable.

And then this person writes back the
dynamic attachment question mark,

between the three of you is very healthy.

Funny, they both called you a C bomb.

Yeah.

Well, I'm glad we all think it's funny.

Okay.

Looking for the next one.

Someone wrote in and suggested
this for a blurb for the show.

An alcoholic communist and a
nutcase walk into a podcast.

I thought that was good.

In other news, I listened
to your podcast a lot.

The three of you have a great dynamic.

You know how you guys kind of
struggle with your preamble?

Like it's good.

It's a solid foundation, but what you
talk about it kind of, it's kind of

more down to earth than the opening.

Which distinguishes reality
from the things we experienced.

That's a big philosophical leap for
people to take over their morning.

Croissant.

And I keep bouncing this
idea around in my head.

It doesn't work, but it might
work with the right words.

Don't be offended at
this unsolicited comment.

I love you.

He goes.

An alcoholic communist and a
nutcase walk into a podcast.

Yeah, I like it.

I said immediately, well, Can
I be a nutcase and a communist

and half an alcoholic, you know?

, Podcasts were there when a.

The booze was a big problem.

And it was one of those things that,
you know, Help me find a way into like

other places and other ways of coping.

And then eventually, you know,
Making a show really was just

an extension of listening.

And I would encourage everyone out there.

If the thought about switching on a Mike.

Um, Please do.

And, you know, if you want
to reach out for any advice

or help with that, please do.

I will.

Literally.

Give you any encouragement or
advice coaching prodding, you need.

To get you going and keep you going.

I guarantee you you've got
something worth sharing.

And not only that.

I'm willing to.

Host the host your.

Your whole files for you?

I've got unlimited hosting that I
paid, you know, 20 us a month for.

And it would actually,
it's not the first time.

That I'd be very happy.

To create a feed and
host your stuff for you.

And, you know, you can have a little email
log in and upload it and stuff yourself.

And.

You know, it can become part of a.

You know, a network of.

People that are.

Yeah, helping each other do
cool stuff in this medium.

That's something I'm happy to help with.

Okay.

You're just looking for more.

There's a lot of, there's a lot of stuff.

Okay.

Here's another one from longtime listener.

Listening to Jesus is my homie.

It's pretty which is one of
our most successful lips ever.

That's pretty captivating,
listening to people.

Talk about success and failure
in their previous relationships.

But I don't know if I should morally
be captivated by it, or I like this.

See, now this shows.

This show is a good.

You know, moral sense.

This person is asking
themselves the right questions.

Like, is it voyeuristic?

Well, maybe a little.

You know, Not going to lie.

I've enjoyed those times.

You're listening to a show, which
is ostensibly about history.

For example, David Kraus,
a history of England.

He reveals little things.

About his kids.

And his life.

I enjoy those little details.

He's got this nice warm sense of humor
and it's warm, but dry, hard to explain.

He's a wonderful presenter.

Highly recommend that show,
even if you don't particularly

care about the history of.

England.

It's uh, it's just a great choice.

It's very well done.

It's very human.

I wonderfully researched.

But.

David at one point became quite sick and.

You know, I wasn't sure if
he was gonna make it or not.

And so yeah, it did.

It felt like witnessing.

Something quite intimately as a stranger,
he didn't go into it very much, but

you could hear the impact in his voice.

Very pleased to say.

He seems to be okay now.

I'll continue with the text.

Like, is it voyeuristic
or is it a learning tool?

How do you know where the line is?

Is there even a line in reality.

Trippy Friday morning, either way.

I'm really enjoying it.

That quote about drinking poison
and hoping someone else gets sick.

The Emmett one is beautiful, but
that poison one is so succinct.

Yeah.

Agreed.

Uh, as for where the line is.

Yeah, that's a good one.

I mean, Tripping over into voyeurism.

It's much easier to do in with
some subject matter than others.

The shows I listened to.

There's very rarely ever any feeling.

Where it's.

Yeah, it's turning into prying.

Sometimes you do get the sense when
you're listening, that people have

forgotten the mikes are on and they're
just, you know, enjoying themselves.

And they're just having a.

Just a good chat and being as
honest as they would with friends.

And I mean, that's part of the attraction.

And it's really not.

Yeah, it's not quite the same.

As someone who, you know, who's.

You know, on YouTube trying to feed the
beast and keep the algorithm going and

getting driven by the incentives to.

Exploit themselves more and more.

And encourage the audience to exploit
them, which is a very unhealthy dynamic

that can occur on those platforms.

And you can see someone go from.

You know, creating.

Just sort of relatively harmless.

Humorous content it can develop into
something quite dark and has a real edge.

To it.

Where you can see that
there's, you know, that thing.

Audience capture.

And so I think that
that's where the line is.

When you feel as though you are
encouraging or commissioning

something unhealthy to continue.

And really it's.

That that line is really
no different as a listener.

Than it is.

As a friend or, for
someone close in your life.

Where you might be encouraging
or commissioning something

unhealthy to continue.

As a listener, that
impact is much smaller.

But it's basically the same
sort of line where, where you,

you know, And so just avoiding.

Yeah, avoiding being part
of something exploitative.

I think you just, you feel it.

Very rarely encountered that
in podcasting, where I felt

people were oversharing.

Uh, and it's really very different to.

You know, yeah.

Being on Oprah or whatever, there
might only be a few hundred listeners

and those people, 99.9, 9% of them
are going to, be very respectful.

And are going to hold that sort
of knowledge in the right way.

So that's my thought on that.

And I think it's very obvious
from this message that.

This listener is not in danger
of being overly voyeuristic.

But also, I would say.

You know, it is part of
the fun, um, the appeal of.

Being honest and knowing that someone
that you don't necessarily know personally

is going to know about it, because I
think we've all got things we want to

get off our chest and we've all got.

Ways that we want to be seen.

And sometimes we want to be
seen in the uncomplimentary.

Things about ourselves, the
unflattering things we want to be seen.

In that way, not just as
beautiful and capable and strong.

Yes.

Yes, yes.

But we also want to be
seen as the ugliness in us.

And the.

The clumsiness that is bare.

The.

The weakness.

And to be seen and to still
be accepted by people.

I mean, that's very powerful.

And it's not, it's not the same thing
as like, you know, legitimising or.

Um, You know, celebrating that it's,
you know, it's just, it is what it is.

And.

To, to kind of.

Get it off your chest.

It's not going to feed the beast
and make things worse that you.

It takes it in the other direction.

Of, um, Feeling that it's easier
to manage because you've shared

it in that, in the right way.

, He has a little.

Joe said to someone, I thought we
talked over each other too much.

And then the person replied, there was
only one moment where I thought that.

You know, this has come up a lot.

Um, With, uh, us interrupting each other
and yeah, this is worth acknowledging.

The end was great.

And I'm looking forward to
the ending therapy slash

administering your own medicine.

Oh, man, we did record that one.

But the sound got stuffed up, so yeah,
we're going to have to do it again.

I think.

I'll go so far as to say I
envy you in the pod space.

Not because I literally want a podcast.

But the way you spoke at the end
about using a part of your brain to

express your thoughts in a way you
hadn't for 15 years, Made me realize

that's what I seek with my writing.

And I'm envious of people who get
external validation or connection

with other humans in that form.

Oh my God.

There's nothing wrong with that.

I love this.

This is.

Wow, this is okay.

That felt a little bit cosmic.

I'd literally just been saying.

You want to, you want your weakness and
your ugliness and your, the things you're

not proud of to be seen and accepted.

You know, it's the hiding
of that, that kills us.

It's the hide, like literally.

It's a hiding of that, that
takes us away from life.

In the fullest sense.

And then this message comes along and
just confirming the, I wasn't sure

where I was going with that thought.

Well, here's where I was going with it.

One of our.

Longest and most loyal listeners is.

Understands exactly what I'm talking
about and feels the same way.

And.

That's very helpful for
both of us, I think.

And.

So what I want to say about that?

Is thank you for expressing it.

First of all.

And I don't think there's
anything wrong with that envy.

And as we discussed in that episode on
envy, But it's really just pointing us to.

Things.

Um, Sometimes on the very literal level.

Oh, I want to do that too.

Great.

Do it.

Other times it might.

Yeah, I.

I might have to dig a little bit to
get what it's actually telling you.

It might not be so
obvious, but , it's there.

You know where to dig.

But in this case, um, to
this person, I would say.

Absolutely do it.

, As in have a podcast.

You know, I can advise
about, , an affordable mic.

That will sound great.

And.

You know, you can get started.

And if you're already writing.

Oh, really?

I cannot encourage you enough to do this.

Because.

Uh, yeah, I do think of.

Podcasting as a form of writing.

Usually cause a lot of thought.

Has gone in ahead of an episode.

The trick in my case actually
sort of gathering all those.

Thoughts, all those fluttering
birds and bringing them to roost

at the right moment is, you know,
can be an enormous challenge.

And it's not a trick I always
pull off, but I kind of enjoy

that improvisational approach.

Um, and I liked the riskiness of it.

And I'm willing to accept failure.

But.

If your.

Someone with a regular
writing practice, which I S.

I have a very patchy writing
practice and I should be.

And I want to turn some
of that into audio.

, it was read it out.

But if you've got a regular
writing practice in.

You won't ways.

To connect that.

Um, in a more, you know, bring
the circle back around in this

way that you're talking about.

, using a part of your brain to express your
thoughts in a way you hadn't 15 years.

That's what I seek with my writing.

And the validation, there's
nothing wrong with wanting that.

You remember that episode
of scrubs years ago?

Where.

You know, Turk was claiming that it,
you know, it wasn't about the ego.

Wasn't about being a good surgeon.

You know, it wasn't about being
admired by people and, Dr.

Cox is calling him out on that.

You know, The wonderful,
, James C uh, McGinley.

I actually have written it.

I've written a pilot for a
television show starring him.

Um, I really should, uh, dig that out.

Um, I built the show with him in mind.

Um, that's another story, but
you know, adventures in writing.

Sometimes what they need
is to be set out loud.

Riders are always given that advice to.

Read their work out loud and,
you know, hear the rhythm of

it or get someone else to.

Read it out here.

The music.

I hear the rhythm or not as
the case may be here, the bum

notes and, you know, fix them.

Find where the rhythm is.

The pace is, you know, dragging.

This, there's something about
bringing it out of the head and

the page where it's a silent thing.

It's not silent when the person's reading
it, they give voice to it in their

own mind, which is a beautiful thing.

But, you can give voice to it yourself
and you can transmit those thoughts to.

A different kind of reader.

Who may be.

It doesn't have the I budget, to sit
and read or, um, it's not something

they're good at, or, like me, maybe they.

Uh, don't always set aside
that time for various reasons,

including, you know, focus.

But if I'm listening.

And.

Doing something with my hands.

I'm the most attentive reader
you could possibly imagine.

Like I'm really all in.

I came across a wonderful study.

Years ago, early in.

Learning about education.

, that one of the most helpful things
for kids who struggle with, , literacy.

Is, listen to a pod and follow
along with a transcript.

Now, back in the day, it was really
expensive to produce transcripts,

but now it's, much, much easier.

Um, thanks to our AI overlords.

Uh, and, uh, If you've written it
well, you've already got the words.

And so people can listen and
they can read along as well.

If they want and well,
they can just listen.

And then you can give them away to, you
know, reach out and close that circle.

So that's something I'd
really be keen to see happen.

Because as I keep saying, I'm
so grateful to the people.

That attracted me to this
medium and told me about it.

And I'm a grateful to
the people I listened to.

They're the reason that
I eventually got going.

Uh, well, you know, and
Joe, it was crucial.

And Hume McGinley.

And all those early listeners who.

Left voice messages in chats and like
all that was just absolutely essential.

And, this person is one of
those early listeners who was

critical to keeping it all going.

So.

It would really make sense.

For that.

Work to, to continue.

And to me, there's no difference.

Listening, speaking, it's
all part of the same process.

Isn't it?

And we shouldn't just be
speaking or just be listening.

We should be doing both as a human.

We have a right.

And, uh, an obligation
to speak and to listen.

And the listening part was something
I really had to work on because

I just wanted to speak and I just
really wanted to be heard, heard,

heard, and I was greedy to be heard.

And, , it was great to discover that
I was actually a greedy to hear.

As well.

So.

I hope you'll, , move towards,
, that if it feels right for you.

Um, Here's another one.

I haven't listened to the Jesus
one yet, but the latest episode

was very interesting to me.

I followed your podcast and would like
to listen more about the realities

and issues of our generation.

Fascinating.

You guys are great chatters
and have nice voices.

I'm not native.

So I need to listen one more
time as I didn't get some words.

Ah, well, that's where the
transcript can be helpful.

Matter of fact, I just realized
some people may, a lot of

people may not be aware.

Of how to access transcripts.

, Every episode we upload has a
transcript attached, which is,

you know, maybe 95% accurate.

Sometimes I correct them by hand
and sometimes I don't, but all of

those are available on our website.

T T T dot transistor dot F M.

But they're also available.

In some apps.

Apple podcasts now, , is actually
producing their own transcripts,

which in some cases might be better.

Then the one we've included.

And.

The aforementioned podcast guru
will show a nice, neat little

transcript as you listen in the app.

, you can activate it or leave it off.

, and fountain.

Pod verse.

Pod friend.

True fans and a bunch of others.

Have that transcript capability.

Like in-app so you don't have
to go to a website to see it.

So highly recommend trying out one
of those and as a handy URL, new

podcast apps, you know, just look
that up and, you know, it lists them

by feature and grab one of those.

And.

Subscribe to the show in that.

If you want to access those.

Things like chapters and, , Episode
art, not just the usual show art.

Poke Husker is the one.

Um, Leaning on a lot at the
moment, looking for another one.

May I share a thought.

I find incredibly powerful.

A self-esteem builder equals.

God paid.

Has offered exactly the same price to
save everybody that chooses to have faith.

Equals the price being the precious
blood of your son, Christ Jesus.

That makes us equal, not above, not below
in value to every other human being.

This price was paid before I was born.

Our mere human existence
makes us valuable.

Yeah.

And so while I am not a believer in the
same way as this person, I think I can

very much connect to what they're saying.

That none of us are above or below.

Each other.

That episode, um, Jesus is my homie
from Joe where he really lays it on

the line . Where his spiritual journey
has taken him in the last few years.

That was really cool.

A lot of people really, really connected.

With that.

Hi, Joe.

Just stumbled upon your channel
and heard that Jesus is your homie.

Love it.

You mentioned reading a book
about the sermon on the Mount.

Do you mind sharing with me the full
title and author watched a great movie

the other week, the case for Christ.

If you ever want to share your
faith with another person trying.

So in perfectly to live
the Christian faith.

We'd be happy to chat or meet up.

That's cool.

Isn't it?

Here's one from an early listener.

You guys should get a Patrion account
and you work hard enough at it.

Joe says doubt.

Anyone would give us money.

Never know.

Um, How many listeners you got
and Joe says one 50 max per app.

Yeah, I think we do.

We get up around there.

Um, I think we've nudged up to 200.

Some, some of them might be up to 300.

Ask Sam, if he'll teach me about a
hundred Krishna movement sometime.

Yeah.

Yeah, I need to talk more about the higher
Krishna stuff at some point, for sure.

Here's one from my mate.

Totally on the alley rationalist
viewpoint on this app.

But, uh, recognize a yearning to see
Joe's broader awareness, , worldview

challenging my way of looking at things.

Thanks as always guys.

Yeah.

Uh, oh, sorry.

One, two punch podcast.

You are resonated with me this morning.

The 10,000 things break down episode
with Joe seeing meaning in consciousness,

expanding experiences and Alex
O'Connor's within reason episode

on meaning and death meaty stuff.

There you go.

So we are in some good company there.

I've heard Alex O'Connor
mentioned recently.

As well.

And I think this was
about the same episode.

Yes.

I don't often get to hear about that
sort of experience from people who can

so well articulated, engaging, inspiring.

Awesome.

Uh, I think that was about
the breakdown episode.

Uh, Hope you are well too amazing
episode slash grilling of Allie.

She is a brave woman.

Uh, Joe says, I thought you might
be appalled with are completely

unqualified grilling a valley.

And then she replies.

I was actually a bit concerned,
but she handled it with aplomb.

How is she after it?

Yeah.

Uh, good.

I think.

Uh, that reminds me though.

the other person was saying earlier
about where is that line, where

it might become exploitative.

And certainly Joe and Ellie
have both told, you know, gut

wrenching breakdown stories.

Um, and to me.

That feels like a fairly normal
conversation to have, to be honest.

Um, because of childhood experiences,
I had actually had adults confess.

Um, all kinds of things to me.

Um, in that hard question of context.

Um,

So maybe I can be.

Oh, yeah.

Maybe not relaxed.

But I don't get as alarmed as, as
easily as perhaps I should sometimes.

, But also we did get some
feedback after that.

Yeah, that obviously Allie did a
really important thing, shared some

things, very courageously, some
horrifying experiences that, I think

it's important to talk about for her
own sake, but other people as well.

But we did get that feedback from
a listener who said they, that they

felt that , Joe and I weren't holding.

Allie's grief and sadness.

The difficulty we weren't like holding
it in quite, quite the right way.

And I would probably agree with that.

Now.

Complete change of tech.

Uh, someone quoting the show back to us.

I just thought posting a hot
photo of myself might have

helped everyone calm down.

That sent me.

Uh, yeah, that was very funny.

Here's another one relating
to a breakdown episode,

I listened to ambassador hotel.

Big.

Wow.

Can totally see the therapy
therapeutic benefit in the podcast.

There's so many who would
never find a way to do that.

As an aside.

Interesting to hear that the dynamic of
just the two of you versus three, I think

it's good, but Allie makes it great.

Well, there you go.

There's confirmation.

Oh, that's episode nine or 10
or 11, somewhere around there.

We do probably have one or
two OGE stands that will like.

A locked.

When it was just the true.

. Every, every single show I
love has changed in some way.

And sometimes I do move
on and sometimes I.

Embrace it.

Uh, begrudgingly.

Is that possible?

Yeah, I guess.

Before eventually going,
no, no, this is good.

I always enjoy your apps.

And this one was super entertaining.

I had a really frustrated response
throughout it, obviously, because

I am exactly one of the serial
offenders that you speak of.

Which topic was this?

Um, interesting how much I wanted to
defend my position as I was listening.

I still feel this urge to justify to
you all why I post the way I do and to

explain it's not all just online stuff.

I'm trying to work out why I care so much.

Definitely feeling seen
and not in a good way.

I remember now.

That was the a, yeah.

Shut the hell up.

You know, stop posting stuff
that you, uh, you know, stay

in your lane app that we did.

From memory, I was in favor of
not staying in your lane overall.

And that.

I think.

You know, one of the problems with the
stay in your lane and like don't post

about things you don't know about is.

It, I don't think this
got covered in the app.

I think it was one of those things
later where I was like, damn.

This is what I really wanted to say.

So now I get to do it.

Okay, so here goes.

The Dunning Kruger effect.

It's where.

People that know enough about a topic
and they have a level of intelligence

necessary threshold of intelligence.

You learn a bit about a topic
and then you get humbled by it.

Right.

You start out yeah, I
get this it's simple.

And then you do a bit of reading or a
bit of listening and wait a minute.

There's way more to this than I thought
this is a vast area of knowledge

you're staring at the grand canyon.

Right?

You thought it was just a ditch.

And, and, you know, It's the,
it's the golf of space and time.

And that humility is really cool.

Uh, and it's essential to learning.

You have to embrace your ignorance and
you have to be uncomfortable with it.

It makes you hungry to know more, right?

So if you're like me, you end up learning
about a lot of different topics and.

You know enough to know
you don't fully get it.

But you have a duty nonetheless,
to at least speak from that

position of partial knowledge.

And you, you, you know, you
have to be honest about what

you're doing, don't know, right.

And you can say things
like it seems to me.

You don't need to make
absolute statements.

This is wrong.

And that is right.

In fact, Usually that's once you
know, a little bit, you won't

be thinking that way anyway.

Um, but when it's clear, That
there is a statement worth making.

Well, yeah.

Put a caveat in there,
but go ahead and make it.

Because if the smart people who
have looked into stuff a little

bit, if they all hang back because
they know that they're not experts.

Guess who that leaves.

The people that have not done any homework
at all, who feel supremely confident

in their completely uninformed opinion.

So if the semi informed stay out
of it, The completely uninformed

will dominate the debate.

So, I'm sorry to tell you.

Half-assed opinions.

Uh, better than no asked opinions.

Right.

So if you're half informed, Just
say, Hey man, I'm half informed.

But it seems to me.

That.

You know,

I think that works.

And like I said, I would hate to see.

The more thoughtful types, hang back and
just allow all the, uh, this is simple.

I am right.

Respect my opinion types
to, dominate everything.

We don't have to be arrogant about it.

And we don't even necessarily have
to express an opinion when we post.

I think I might've said this in the app.

Sometimes we can just mention that
we're considering this mentioned

that we're thinking about it.

That can be incredibly powerful.

We are a herd species to some
degree, and we need to know what

other people are thinking about.

It is powerful.

And when we know that everybody
else is concerned about something.

Maybe we don't necessarily agree,
on every aspect of it, but we all

recognize that this is important.

If no, one's saying, I
think this is important.

I'm worried.

I have questions, you know,
if no one's saying that.

Or only the, you know, The Noah
asked to do versus the saying

that then that's no good.

And the same person said.

Uh, the irony of three north side
is sitting around expressing their

opinions about things for an hour.

Well shit canning.

Middle-class white women for
doing their version of the same.

And then the reply to that was turns out
Allie was doing the exact same posting.

She was complaining about which
we worked out during the episode.

I look, I've done it.

And I've told people to
get off the internet.

God.

Everyone has I hope, I mean, come on.

It's a birthright at this point.

But in all seriousness, no, I
don't think middle-class white

women should stay out of it.

I think.

There are some things
where maybe they could.

You know, step back one little bit.

Um, But it has to be acknowledged that.

For better or worse.

It's often middle-class
white women that do.

There, it might be in a position.

To be heard.

Because I have access to certain
people that maybe others don't.

So there's a, there's an
important network effect.

If, if an issue is never championed
outside of the effected group,

it usually doesn't go anywhere.

So in middle-class white
women take up causes.

Um, As they have been doing for centuries.

When really they are.

Like.

Textbook case of taking up causes
and not always to the right effect,

of course, but I mean, that's
never the case with, you know, we

can't guarantee the right outcome.

But, but it's, it's just a fact that
middle-class white women have actually

played a crucial role in modern history.

Uh, it's not for no
reason they had literacy.

Um, Maybe they didn't have to work 12
to 14 hours a day in paid employment

and domestic labor and childcare.

Maybe they had helped with that stuff.

So they had the luxury
of reading and writing.

Letters and gathering in parlors and
talking about things and getting petitions

going and they had the respectability.

It was very difficult for the
patriarchy in the battle for.

Universal suffrage.

They were working class women in
there who was sometimes overshadowed

by the middle-class women.

And there were women of color who were
often, overshadowed, also . And of course

there was a parallel struggle for them.

, the emancipation.

Of people in slavery.

And there was an enormous debate in
19th century activism about whether to

prioritize emancipation or suffrage.

, so you can see that middle-class white
women have treated this issue sometimes

selfishly and sometimes selflessly
and have sometimes very much come

down on the right side of history.

So if we told them to get
out, it would cripple.

a key plank in civil society.

It's just a fact.

Yeah.

Does that mean though?

That it's always a benign influence?

No, of course not.

And so the usual caveats apply.

You know, there were suffragettes who did
not want rough girls getting the vote.

I did not want sex
workers getting the vote.

Did not want women without
property or unmarried.

To get the vote, but they
didn't get their way in the end.

Did they?

But it was very.

Difficult for, you know, Quote, unquote,
polite, respectable, um, patriarchs.

Who have a load of dignity, but
don't share it with anybody.

When they were locking up and force
feeding middle-class girls, and

middle-class girls were smashing
windows that really, had an effect.

You can be sure.

If the working class or people
of color do any of that?

Well, they might be dismissed.

But, quote unquote, nice
girls from nice homes.

Can't be quite dismissed in the
same way and that's not fair.

I don't agree with that,
but it's just a fact.

And so that.

That positionality.

Is crucial because those sorts of claims
cannot be rejected quite as easily.

We've seen just in the last week or
two middle-class white women being

arrested and brutalized by police.

For opposing violence.

Being met with violence themselves.

And let's face it.

The patriarchal double standard
does have at least one use.

Which is people are outraged.

By that.

As they should be.

If a dreadlocked hippie
gets some rough handling.

Not everybody's going to be sympathetic.

But when that same brutality is
turned on white middle-class women.

Well, So some people
that's when it counts.

So.

We can use that.

That's what I'm saying.

Well, that was a lengthy
reply to that text.

What the conversation continue.

And here's one last one.

A couple of mates started listening
and said, they're really enjoying it.

Uh, the 10,000 things
podcast is so fucking dope.

Um, man, that's the best one.

All right.

Well, that's enough.

from me.

I hope you've enjoyed this.

I hope I've done my gratitude work.

Um, One last one.

I listened to.

How do we know when therapy
is working this morning?

Thought it was also very good.

You guys have a great
podcast on your hands?

We'll thank you to that person.

But the truth is despite how arrogant
and self-assured, I can seem at times

the truth is I do need other people.

Uh, everybody does.

This is not a solo effort.

It's not three people.

It's hundreds that have made it.

Um, Uh, begin and continue.

It took millions and millions and millions
of people to put someone on the moon.

And it takes a few hundred
to get a podcast going.

Another time, I'll talk
about some of those shows.

I mentioned that were really
there for me at difficult times.

That's a topic that needs to be treated.

At more length for now, I hope that
you've enjoyed hearing from other

listeners or hearing your own words and.

Understand how important they are.

And understand this role of.

The listener as much more than
just a listener as a producer,

as a member of a network.

Of people that are participating.

Not just in supporting this
show, but we're participating

in your life and vice versa.

And that's really, such an
important antidote to the.

Ah, the nihilistic chaos of, consume,
uh, Techno feudal existence.

Where we are encouraged to
believe that we're alone and

that asserting the importance of
our individual perspective is.

And our individual
desires is where it's at.

And of course we all recognize
at this point that that is

not entirely where it's at.

And that we need more, much more.

. Consider yourself a producer and
give this thought of, for value.

Some consideration because.

Someone encouraged us to start a Patrion.

I don't think Patrion is for us, but I
do think we will put the call out there.

Anyone who wants to help out
with stuff like show notes or.

Sourcing image art, like Craig
has been supplying us with

photos for a couple of years now.

or just nice footage we can
use for short video and.

Telling other people about the show.

And yes.

Time, talent and treasure the
value for value philosophy.

That if you don't ask,
you may not receive.

So I'm going to do the ask.

We will eventually set up.

Some way of handing currency.

As a way of saying, Hey, I
got some value out of this.

And here's some value I
want to return to you.

I can't imagine doing any sort
of monthly payment for extra

episodes or anything like that.

I don't want to put
anything behind a pay wall.

Um, That seems.

I don't like that.

You know, People who can't
afford it, can't get access.

Yeah, I don't like that.

I think what we do
should be for everybody.

From each, according to their means
to each, according to their needs.

So I wouldn't want to put a
minimum or a maximum on it.

But

do I want to support PayPal?

Do I want to support, you know, Apple pay.

There's no good options.

Are there?

It's one to think about.

And if anyone has any suggestions, text
the people that you've been texting.

I do think.

A general show, phone
number would be a good idea.

And you can also write
to the 10,000 things at.

outlook.com.

And, you know, if you have any
suggestion about like a, a financial

mechanism then shoot it through.

Okay.

Well, I hope you've enjoyed that.

And.

That's just another.

Half a dozen or so of the 10,000 things.

See you for a regular app with
all three of us again soon.

I think next Wednesday.

Thanks again.

Bye.