The Ten Thousand Things

hello and welcome to the 10,000 things.

My name is Sam Ellis.

I'm Jo Low, and today we've got a quote,
which turned out to be from a land Botton

Tom, but we've had trouble sourcing
the exact place that came from, but

it simply says, two truths would help.

There aren't that many people.

We genuinely like, there aren't that
many people who deeply like us back.

The sooner we accept this, the
gentler the experience becomes.

Mm.

Friends send me this, this about dating.

Of course.

And we have become a bit of a dating
and relationships podcast, Sam.

Yeah, it's true.

Uh, couldn't tell you.

That's okay.

Couldn't tell you if it's good
or bad, it's just what it is.

We were gonna talk about 10,000
things and we decided just to talk

about relationships and dating.

Well, I mean, there's
a bunch of screenshots.

In the chat that a starred that have to
do with more kind of phenomenological

stuff like we were exploring early
on, philosophy, existence, experience

of, uh, or not of the presence of
God, you know, stuff like that.

Yeah.

I would like to continue with the Dao.

We've been over a lot of different
stuff, but we both think about

girls a lot, let's face it.

Yeah.

I mean, obviously there's people out
there that are, what is it a romantic?

Oh, I, I didn't, I've heard of asexual.

Yeah.

And then there's demi demisexual.

Yeah.

And then there are people that
distinguish a romantic, like romantic

from sexual, which is, I think, yeah,
that makes a lot of sense to me.

but we're, we're romantics, aren't we?

We're kind of somewhat, yes.

Very much, very much.

Yeah.

Somewhat obsessed with the making
relationships work or not, or Yeah.

How at all?

You know, it's very
life defining, I think.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Whether we get these relationships
right, and what the quote's saying

is there are very few people who
actually like us, and there are

very few people we deeply like back.

And I think that I have labored under
the false impression, perhaps created

by dating apps in the last 10 years,
that there is an infinite number of

people that are potential options.

And it's only in the last year or two when
I've realized that that's very much not

true and have settled into trying to make
it work with one person very haphazardly

that, you know, that's, I think that
was the, the context in which this

quote was sent to me by my friend Alice.

And I think it's a profound truth.

It seems obvious.

Could you read it out again?

Sorry, Sam.

Yeah, let's do it again.

Oh, I was just enjoying
everything you were saying there.

Yeah.

I just wanna make sure we know
exactly what we're talking about.

Mm-hmm.

And I feel like everything you were saying
there was giving me a lot to think about.

I'll just re, I'll go from the top
quote, but two truths would help.

One, there aren't that many people.

We genuinely like two.

There aren't that many people
who deeply like us back.

The sooner we accept this, the
gentler the experience becomes.

Ah, yes.

So we genuinely like, and
they deeply like us back.

Mm.

I think that is incredibly true.

But, and the amount of crappy first
dates I've been on from dating apps

where you're like, both have this
vibe of like, even though we had a

great chat for the last four days,
now we're in front of each other.

We are both really not enjoying
this and we could really shut this

down after about five minutes.

I've been on hundreds of those dates
would probably be a stretch, but it would

be maybe approaching a hundred of those.

Pointless first dates.

It's not as big as some people's
numbers, but it's an extraordinary number

compared to, I don't know, the sixties
or something, or the fifties, you know?

Well, yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, maybe guys who were fitter
and better looking than me always

felt like they had limitless options.

But guys like me before dating apps, so
back in the nineties certainly felt like

NOMA options were fairly constrained.

Mm.

And I needed to make the
best of what came along then.

Yeah.

My, my mind got hacked by these apps.

Mm-hmm.

To create the impression that
there was infinite options.

Yeah.

And now I've come full circle and I'm
realizing that no, if you find someone

great, you really need to work on it.

That's right.

There's only one option.

Whatever happens, which is

one by one, patiently work through
all of the obstacles that come up.

Or don't.

That's it.

So whether it's like also the number
of, uh, at, I've listened to a lot of

podcasts about attachment theory, right.

Which we've not talked about, uh,
as much lately, but you know, it's

gonna keep coming up on this show.

Right.

Anxious attachment, avoidant
attachment and disorganized attachment.

Some, you know, mixture of the first two.

There's also secure attachment and
there's also secure attachment.

No one has that.

Oh.

Uh, they're like normies that live
in Camberwell and they both have

secure attachment and they both have
good jobs and they're not struggling

with the cost of living, and they're
just having a pretty good life and

having holidays in Tuscany with their
secure attachment with each other.

Mm.

But we'd never meet them.

But they're out there
and they're the majority.

I would say.

There's no, I'd say there's,
there's no, there's a lot of people.

With like a reasonable, um, reasonable
level of security in their attachment.

So it's never, or it's never
an all or nothing thing, right?

So there are plenty of people who
it's like secure enough, and I would

say nearly all of them will at some
time experience insecurity even

in the best relationships, right?

So that, that's just a fact of life.

And they'll experience times
when they just are like, YH,

get me away from this person.

Right?

That's a normal thing.

But it's people like you and I
that experience a huge amount of

get me away from this person and
will they ever speak to me again?

Yeah.

Or, uh, oh, they've, you know, they
didn't reply to my text very quickly.

It must be over, you know?

Yeah.

So that's the anxious side.

Or, you know, have I, uh, you know,
have I done enough to repair this

latest argument or, and then on the
avoidance side, oh, I don't think

I can ever repair this argument.

You know, so I've spent
a lot of my relationships

feeling, you know, like that.

So it does seem like a distant and
impossibly small minority that actually

do have some secure attachment.

But recent figures have shown
secure the rates of secure relative

secure attachment have declined
relative to a generation ago.

And, these SATs might interest you, Joe,
I won't bother attaching the numbers,

but basically a generation or two ago,
more commonly, women experienced anxious

attachment out of the insecurely attached
and men tended to towards avoidant.

That seems to have just
flipped more or less.

So the rates have gotten much closer to
50 50 and that it actually, more often

now we have men with anxious attachment
and we have less women with anxious

attachment, more women with avoidant.

And that's got to do, According to
the psychologists, et cetera that I

listen to about this, that there's a
number of theories, but one of them is

dating apps themselves have done this.

Yes.

But also there are more people spending
longer periods of time alone in general.

Right.

Not just men, the male
loneliness epidemic.

Right.

Word to even say like
some, some people do.

personally, I, I've been hearing from
sociologists for a long time that there

is a lot of loneliness about, I've been
hearing this for more than a generation

and that those rates are increasing,
but that it seems women of, uh, the

average woman has, you know, sort of.

Learn to revise upwards their standards
and what they'll deal with and, you

know, settle for and what they won't.

So the traditional man
being avoidant as in Mm.

Playing the field and, uh, being
uh, or just spending a lot of

time in their mancave Yeah.

Being a bit distant and being a
loose distant And that's, that's

breaking down a little bit.

It's breaking down a little bit.

Men are more likely to, you
know, hanker for reassurance than

they might of a generation ago.

And women are more likely to be
like, get the ick and be like, YH.

Yeah.

Because I have two different
experiences of relationships.

Yeah.

There's part of the relationship
that's text-based, which is usually

where everything goes wrong.

And then there's the part of the
relationship that is in person.

And I've come to the conclusion
that if I could sit down with

any one of my exes mm-hmm.

Any one I've ever dated and have
dinner with them for an hour.

Mm.

By the end of that hour,
they wouldn't hate me.

But a lot of these people,
things have ended via text and

then I've never seen them again.

And yeah, like I have very positive
experiences with people in person,

and I have quite negative experience.

This goes to friendships as well.

very negative experiences via text.

So I've, I've lost numerous friends
in the past few years just via text.

I've lost numerous relationships via text,
and I find I, I, I personally probably

just need to do something about it.

I don't know if that's just text less,
make more phone calls or text less than

just text to arrange a time to see someone
in person and then talk something through.

Because it makes me a coward.

I can hide behind my screen.

Yeah.

Big time.

And, and be a coward and,
and break up with someone, or

end a friendship or, mm-hmm.

Whatever.

Or the other person completely
misunderstands what I'm saying.

And then that leads to.

Acrimony, and then that leads to the
end of a friendship or a relationship.

So the text message medium has been,
yeah, I mean, and then I've also had

relationships that were completely
based around anxious avoidant, like

I was anxious and they were avoidant.

So I would text them and they
wouldn't reply for three hours,

and then I would spiral miserable.

But then the thrill of the text
actually coming through almost makes

the waiting and spiraling Worth it.

Worth it.

Yes.

Because you get the relief.

And so you're, you're hooked
into all these, um, unhealthy.

Yeah.

And there, there's, well, and because,
you know, with the, with anxieties in

and, uh, and avoidance, by the way, I need
to point this out, avoid an attachment.

People who experience that more than
the other styles, it's not as though

they're not feeling anxious either.

This is one of the major
misunderstandings, and

that in fact is you both.

Those polls of it, anxious and
avoidant are both insecure.

They both have an insecure
experience of relationships.

We have this false notion that the
avoidant half has the power, and they

do in a sense, because for the anxious
person waiting for the reply, it's

as though this person is literally
the power over the weather itself.

Right?

But the reality is that person
feels in that moment, like it's

not an option for them to reply.

So they're not experiencing a
freedom or a secure security.

Well, that's interesting.

I thought that would just fuck it with me.

No, they're struggling with a,
with an anxiety and their method

of dealing with it is avoidance.

So what, you know, the, whereas
the anxious quote unquote style

tends to go after reassurance
persistently until they get it, but.

Because they're so persistent and
going after it so often this becomes

exhausting for the other person because
the other thing that happens is like

a junkie that's trying to get a fix.

So addiction is related to all of this
that you can reassure the anxiously

attached person as much as you like,
and they will never feel safe for long.

Meanwhile, on the avoidance side,
you can give the, you can try to give

that person experiencing avoidance
a bit more space, but ultimately

there's no such thing as enough space.

Just as for the anxious person, there's
no such thing as enough reassurance.

Yeah, so this is why people have
to work on themselves, ramed us.

The only thing I can do for
you is work on me right now.

Personally, there is a bit more,
actually, the only thing I can do for

you is act in solidarity to change
material relations that affect all of us.

But in terms of How well we
function within relationships.

It is incredibly important to work on
ourselves and to observe our biases

and blind spots and to do perspective
taking and all that good stuff.

Yeah.

And you've, yeah, you've just had a
breakup, Sam, and you've been doing

a bunch of marriage canceling, like
what's sort of come out of that, that's

about your patterns and, 'cause I don't
wanna make it a whole episode about

attachment styles because I, what I
like about the quote is how simple it

is, which is, oh, of course there are
very few people who, who we like and

very few people who deeply like us back.

Now you found one of those and
made it work for Yeah, yeah, yeah.

13 years or something like that.

Well, and that's just come to an end,
so you must have some reflections

on like, certainly you don't feel
like you're in any position to look

for anyone else for quite a while.

No.

So you are in a grieving
period, I would say.

Yes.

Yeah.

But you found one of those people,
didn't you, that, that you liked

and they deeply liked you back.

Yes.

And a couple of kids came out of that.

That's right.

And lots of beautiful things.

That's right.

Now you're, um, mm-hmm.

You're trying to find some
acceptance around that ending.

Is that right?

Yeah.

Well, and while, yeah, that's true.

And, uh, it's not all bad.

In fact, you know, things are
much better than they were,

you know, six, 12 months ago.

And, uh, there's a lot to be,
a lot to be positive about.

And I've done a lot of
the grieving already.

But to be sure, because I, I know a lot
about gr, a lot of experience with grief

that I know actually it doesn't go away.

It just sits differently
with you over time.

And that's okay.

Now, the reason, of course, we,
and I'll answer the question more

fully, but the reason we got into
at attachment theory there, the.

So I failed to join the dots
earlier, and this is a classic

Sam spectrum thing to do, right?

I make three leaps and
then I start on step three.

So to go back when you listen to
attachment experts and coaches and like

relationship coaches, a lot of the good
ones will make a number of simple points.

But the one that I wanna highlight
here as it relates very strongly to

Alan's logic here in this, that people
in dating, quote unquote, right,

courtships, looking for prospects, right?

Given awful lot of thought to how
does this person feel about me?

Do they like me?

And not enough people pay, uh,
enough attention according to the

experts that I've been listening to.

Just a handful of people here I'm
quoting that all seem to agree.

That we ought to be thinking much more
about how do I feel about this person?

And there's a tendency though, if
you think too much, what do I feel

and think about this person or don't
attend enough to them and how they're

responding to you, that you'll also
miss some important information.

So it's, you know, it's about finding
the right balance between the two.

And that's why this quote is, I agree
wholeheartedly that the number of people

that you really like, and I don't mean
click in the sense of instant chemistry.

' cause that's a lot of what, the other
reason I bring up attachment theory

is that that all sounds like stuff
that makes relationships difficult.

Right.

And it is certainly my experience of
being disorganized, having disorganized,

an insecure attachment style, but it
can also generate a lot of excitement

and thrill in the early stages.

And there's a reason why.

It's like, oh, the irony, the anxious
and the avoidant got together.

No, it's not ironic at all.

Like it's almost chemically by design
that these two people will end up orbiting

one another in a, you know, a sort of
unstable orbit and that can generate

something which feels like excitement or
romance or drama or you know, like you've

said to me a hundred times, you know, I
just seem to crave difficulty and high

drama and you know, that sort of stuff.

Yeah.

I think what I said was, I'm a
messy bitch who lives for drama.

A messy bitch who lives with drama.

I said that lives for drama.

Lives for drama.

And that's me too.

A hundred percent.

And in the middle of all that drama,
I mean, I dunno where that quote comes

from, some kind of reality show, but.

It, it appealed to me at the time.

And I don't wanna paint
too bleak a picture.

The one thing I had in the last 10
years of dating, app dating was a

lot of excitement when that's what
I'm, like you said, when two people

click, I had a lot of chemistry.

Mm-hmm.

And exciting chemistry that
lasted sometimes a few months.

Yep.

Sometimes up to about six months.

Sure.

And uh, that's the upper range.

And it was often anxious and avoidant.

Some stew of anxious and
avoidant on both sides.

Yes.

And then a lot of chemistry
and a lot of excitement.

Yes.

But then it flaming out
and me ending up on my own.

Yes.

Because in that three to
six months of excitement and

intensity and avoidance and so on.

So periods of time, maybe may days
without speaking or being together.

Right.

And then maybe a binge of togetherness.

Right.

In all of that tumult and extreme, where
does the genuine sense of this person.

As an in their normal context and you
in your normal context, whatever that

is, you know, your baseline, not this
sort of like intense or hot and cold

thing, but just day-to-day functioning.

What does that feel like with this person?

sort of in the friendship mode, right?

It's like, do we even enjoy hanging out?

Yeah.

In the mundane Yes.

Not hooking up.

Not hooking up.

Yeah.

Just hanging out or not yet.

Yeah.

And that's where the emptiness creeps in.

And then I'm like, wow, this is so empty.

I know.

And the number of, I can't handle
this normal experiences I had with

people that should have felt nice and
instead felt I didn't know how to feel

because there things were not dramatic.

And I was like, what's wrong?

Nothing's wrong.

Are you sure?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's like, like, oh,
we're having a nice time.

We're walking around looking at antiques.

And we're having lunch.

Why do I feel so weird?

Yeah.

That's where the
emptiness would get to me.

But the irony was that I was just as
empty on my own, so why worry about the

emptiness when I'm with someone else?

So it always felt more
painful and profound to you.

Experience that when you are in
company with someone that is supposed

to be closing these gaps for you.

Right.

Yeah.

Which makes me think that always
probably I had unrealistic

expectations of what, of course,
what a partner could actually bring.

Well, Bob Dylan's your
favorite songwriter.

Yeah.

And we talked about, you know, I'll refer
you to the episode we discussed Dylan.

Uh, what was the topic?

I can't remember.

It was a few ago.

And it was about, um, attraction.

Attraction.

Right.

But like Dylan fantasizing
about these distant figures.

Yeah.

Or.

Well, the distant figure never comes
into the mundane and becomes mundane.

That's right.

That's right.

Or in blonde, on blonde intimate
portraits of how contemptuous

contemptible he finds them.

Right?

Yeah.

So when the portrait is up
close, it's very like, yuck.

And when the portrait
is distant, it's nice.

But this is all the stuff
that you were encouraging me

on that episode to overcome.

Exactly.

And I feel like I'm chipping away.

Oh, big time.

I think you're making huge progress.

Yeah.

I'm trying to overcome, but you
sort of, um, battered away my,

uh, going down the path of talking
about your most recent relationship.

I wanted.

Well, the rea can, you can see
the point I'm trying to make here.

Yeah.

The joining, the joining this
is, I feel like I haven't

really said it clearly enough.

It's really hard for people like
you and I, and I don't know, I

don't want to just put labels on it.

Right.

But people who've had
tended to have chaotic.

Relationships.

Yeah.

Uh, romantic ones in particular.

Right.

You and I have had some pretty
golden steady friendships.

Right.

But on the romance side, struggled
a bit more to, I never had

difficulty meeting good people.

Right.

That's the first thing I wanna say.

And the second thing I wanna say is
that I had the greatest difficulty

with valuing good people properly.

And some would, people who
know me well would say, and I

think, yes, Sam, that's right.

And you most of all right.

Valuing yourself appropriately
and like, caring for yourself.

Like, I, I don't wanna say
buzzwordy things here, right.

But when you're feeling okay about the
world, like not euphoric or amazing.

No, no.

Just, just, okay.

I'm okay in my own skin.

I'm okay being alone right now, I'm okay
having a talk to this person without.

I constantly thinking about what's
next and where's this going?

Only under those conditions can
you have any sense of whether

you like this person or not.

Yeah, yeah.

You see what I'm saying?

Yeah.

So for a land Botton On's quote, to make
any sense or make any difference in a

person's life, or for those two people,
it has to be understood that this is,

that you like genuinely like each other
in a normal, ordinary sort of way.

Yeah.

But the crucial part in an era of
dating apps is that, that this is rare.

It is.

It's actually rare to,
find someone that you.

Deeply like, and they deeply like you back
because did you go on checklists and Yeah.

Which, you know, Alanda bot's great.

Talking about, we are so flawed
and probably previous exes

couldn't be bothered fixing us.

They just passed us on to the next person.

Well, it's not their job anyway,
but yeah, it's not their job.

And they just bothered, never bothered
to tell us what was wrong with us, but

there was all these things wrong with us.

And when we've just moved from
relationship to relationship, creating the

same chaos and problems, you know, like
he's very good about writing about that.

So that it's insane.

For me to have walked around for 10
years thinking I had infinite options.

Mm.

And, and really I feel like there
were a bunch of relationships I

could have made work, And I didn't.

And so I have regret about that now.

I have one that I'm
working on at the moment.

Mm-hmm.

Maybe I shouldn't talk about too much on
the podcast 'cause it's still unfolding.

Agree.

But I'm chipping away at
something and I'm trying to take

the spirit of this quote Yes.

On board, you know?

Yes.

Whereas you are coming out
of something where Yes.

You did find someone you did where
you deeply liked each other and you

spent a long period of time together.

Yes.

But then that unraveled in some mm-hmm.

Way, right?

Yes.

So I'll be honest.

Part of the reason I went on for so long
about the, because I, I do think it's

an important point for everybody, but
particularly it reflects strongly on an,

the answer to your question, how difficult
it is to really, how difficult I found

it, to really assess how I felt about
other people and how I, friends, lovers,

bosses, I mean, all kinds of people.

Because there were so many things often
in the way of just coming to an ordinary

sort of understanding or experience.

I spent a lot of time in therapy, you
know, getting away from high-minded stuff

and into the ordinary experience, right?

And so my experience with this,
this last relationship, a bit like

all the others previously, a good
person, a good choice of partner in

many respects, most respects, right?

And, Someone that I was, physically
attracted to that I enjoyed talking to,

that we had enough interest in common, but
also enough difference and, uh, you know,

that, uh, that she could make me laugh,
which I, it's just rare in general for me.

Like I, I do find that more difficult,
but like, I just kind of found and find

her just sort of ordinary casual wit to
be to my much, to my liking or just, you

know, has an, has a good effect on me.

uh, you know, lot, lots to, lots of things
I could just, I could go on all day.

Yeah, it sounds great.

Stylish, you know, collection,
big collection of music.

Kind of like a mixture of
girlish and boyish styles in

dressing, which I really liked.

And yeah.

You found your, you
found your dream woman.

Oh, a hundred percent.

And you set yourself up
to be with them forever.

Yes.

And maybe, what was it, 13 years?

Yeah.

Oh, no, more than that.

More than 13, yeah.

13 years of, oh, 13 plus years of
marriage plus the, you know, yeah.

Two, three years before that.

So maybe 16 years.

Yeah.

Is the equivalent of forever.

Yeah.

In a lifetime it is.

Or in 2025.

Yes.

I don't know.

Like 16 years is an incredibly long,
it's the most of a generation, right?

Yeah.

So I mean, you found your dream woman
and you spent a forever amount of

time with them, and now you are on
the other side of that, you know?

Yeah.

And one of the things that like
placed, placed me on the other side

of that is this difficulty I had with

knowing or feeling confident.

That I liked this person.

Mm-hmm.

Because what I experienced in
that relationship and all the

others, was choosing someone
who was more than good enough.

Right.

And doing, you know, quote unquote, well
for myself, batting above my average.

Yeah.

Right.

In at least one or more areas.

Right.

And sometimes across the board.

And so that's nice.

Good for you, Sam, but struggling with
a lot of different things, but germane

to this quote, one of them not liking
myself very much a lot of the time.

And that experience that you can relate
to of, oh, this person is supposed

to make me feel better, or this per
getting together with this person

is meant to be solving maybe not
all my problems, but a lot of them.

Right.

That or the, just the way this
nagging feeling of emptiness

or existential angst will just
disappear because of this person.

And sure enough, it does
for a little while, right?

You're either preoccupied with
the drama or just the, ah, this

is great, but sooner or later,
wherever you go there you are, right?

Mm-hmm.

Whoever you're with, you're still you.

Yeah.

Right?

And that the existential angst comes back.

Yes.

The emptiness.

Yes.

Or even if I wasn't plagued by like,
catastrophic thoughts about politics

or the future or whatever, like you,
uh, I'd be, yeah, I'd be struggling

with a deep dislike for myself or
deep inadequacy about like, you

know, I don't make enough money.

I don't have any sort of
career and I'm 28, I'm 29.

Uh, oh, I'm 30 and I really
don't have my shit together.

This person is like ahead of me.

All my, all my partners were ahead of me.

Mm-hmm.

Like in certain key areas.

And all of them were kind enough to
say, Hey, I learned a lot from you.

because there were things, right,
but, or I had certain experiences of

life that I could try and share that
was of genuine usefulness, right.

But I often struggled to point until
much later to what I'd learned from

them and to return that compliment,
not out of politeness, but out of

reality of like, so it's a confusing
bunch of things I'm pointing to here.

Underestimating myself,
undervaluing myself an awful lot.

But then what's the evil twin of that?

The egotistical monster who
thinks he's God's gift, right?

Uh, uh, uh, the worthless
worm and the exalted deity.

Like, I've tried to be both of
those things or, or just spent

time being both of those things.

And it's, that's no fun
to hang around with.

And so I made other people feel the way
I felt, which was like, I don't like me.

And now they don't like themselves
after spending enough time with me.

Mm.

But then with a bit of clarity
and distance, you can look at

it and go, oh, it's very clear.

I was with four people that I
liked and respected and admired

and, and craved equality with.

And so I can tell you that quote is
100% true and that, so you're saying

you've had four in your lifetime?

Yeah.

I'd say that's a, yeah.

Yeah.

Mine, I'd be similar.

Yeah.

And like each one of those people,
an absolute treasure that I.

Give a kidney two, you know what I mean?

Mm-hmm.

But it takes a little bit more than
just this quote, but it does point

to a, a lot of the things that
you really gotta keep an eye on.

And I think we need to include
friendships in this as well.

So, yeah.

But going back a bit, you'd say some
emptiness crept back, crept back in for

you in the last few years of your marriage
that had gone away with all the activity

and all the connection and all the, yeah.

That's interesting.

No, no.

I think I experienced that much more
profoundly in the middle period.

Right.

And then towards the last, oh,
and the early stages as well.

I mean, like, I was in a, I cannot tell
you what a, you know, you know a bit about

it, but like was in a bad place when I met
Kath and it actually got worse after that.

Like my, just my personal like.

It nightmarish experience of reality.

Like was, I didn't know this at two in
2009, but it was about to go downhill.

Mm.

And hit some form of as bad as it
gets, I don't know, 20 13, 20 14.

And then SA slow stumbling
something people in addiction

recovery could relate to.

I'm sure a, a painful pro, a
painful experience of climbing out

of the same hole again and again.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean?

But emerging from all of that, I think
quite a bit stronger than I used to be.

I have a much stronger stomach now
for existential whatnot, and I've, I

dunno, I find that like the chemical
waves of life, I'm just much better at

recognizing them and just going, yeah.

This will pass.

You know what I mean?

And unlike all, all the previous
breakups, uh, well, I mean, I was

more, much more profoundly devastated
by this one, but on the other hand,

didn't go trying to cope
with it in the usual way.

Mm-hmm.

Lots of drinking and socializing
and, uh, you know, being a

messy bitch who lives for drama.

Uh, I've tried to do much less of the
rollercoaster this time, which usually

followed every one of those things.

Well, you got a couple small kids you
gotta look after as well, Sam, so you

can't go completely off the rails.

Like they're very stabilizing
forces for me, my kids.

Oh, hugely so.

Well stabilizing and just,
just built in accountability.

Like you just Yeah.

And love and affection.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which, when you norm, when you have a
breakup, when you don't have kids, you

just, there's no, well, that's true.

There's no one around
to give you a cuddle.

You know?

You know what, you've given me something.

That's true.

I don't, I can't take all the credit for
coping better than I would've thought.

And I can't take, um, yeah.

I can't take all, yeah.

The importance of that.

Like, just having them there to just,
you know, hey, they still care about

you every bit as much and you know it
well, and actually the other pers I

mean, they care about me just as much.

and it's easier to get along now.

that's, that's all good stuff.

But, you know, it is nice.

I think I like myself a lot better than
I did in 2009, and that's a good thing.

And it meant that I've not immediately
gone hunting for massive validation

from everybody, strangers, friends.

'cause that's what I did all
the other times, you know?

Yeah.

Remind me, I'm lovable.

Remind me I'm lovable.

Within a few months of my big breakup,
after nearly 10 years with two kids and

a mortgage, I downloaded a dating app
that was around back then called Tinder.

And uh, I went on Tinder and I'll
never forget my amazement when

someone, and paint me a picture.

What year is this?

Uh, 2015.

And I went on Tinder and
20 15, 20 16 around there.

And a quite attractive
woman matched with me.

I remember I was on the train into
the city and this woman matched

and I'm like, this can't be real.

And then you've you've won a raffle.

Yeah, it was like that.

And then I started chatting to
them and they chatted to me.

And then like the most amazing
thing, like three days later, I

met them in a pub in Collingwood.

Yeah.

And I was a classic like divorce bro.

Where I just sat there and I was not okay.

And in the end she's like, you
are not ready to be dating, but

I'm gonna give you a pash anyway.

Aw.

'cause you know, you're hopeless.

You're, you shouldn't be
dating, but you're kind of cute.

And then she kissed me and then she
jumped on a tram and disappeared.

It was a very Bob Dylan.

And then she disappeared.

It's, it's, she was like,
she's like my perfect woman.

Right.

She's just the Absolutely.

One kiss.

Yeah.

One romantic kiss after, after
a, my first ever Tinder date.

And a nice, nice dose of truth.

Yeah.

Have you ever had such a service
from a app meeting, you know, yeah.

Such a great.

A person do use such a good term.

Yeah.

So it started off very
positive with the dating apps.

It's just when it became, I was gonna
say, this sounds like a story of

my first experience with substance
or drug X followed by, but then

the, the most intense relationships
I've had in the last 10 years

actually weren't from dating apps.

They were from people that already knew
on social media who I asked out on a date.

One from Facebook, one from Instagram,
and they were very intense and

positive and then horrible experiences.

Mm.

Um, so there's also that.

But then Yeah.

But then the, my obsessive compulsive
bipolar side kicked in with the

dating apps and I became addicted.

You you were deep in it.

Yeah.

And when we were rec connected three
years ago, before we started doing

this show, I was just completely
distracted by dating apps.

Oh.

I was mesmerized like on
that, that road trip, up to.

Echuca with Hugh, friend of the show,
and uh, it was kind of a fun, cool

side to it, which was just Joe one
with the machine and I mean, the

car, the phone, it's all one piece.

Car phone, Joe.

It's just in its symbiosis, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

Giving a bit of Neil Cassidy going,
absolute bit of Neil Cassidy for sure.

Yeah, that's what I've always wanted.

Yeah.

You got there, dude.

You, you did one by one.

You've checked off so
many things on your list.

Yeah.

You know, like made
films, filled a theater.

What embodied Neil Cassidy.

There you go.

You've, you can do the things
you set your mind to, you know?

Yeah.

This is nice, isn't it?

But the compulsive swiping on
dating apps is disturbing to, I

felt completely safe in that car.

I can't tell you.

Like, it's very rare that a
person's touching their phone and

driving, and I feel okay about it.

It's up on the windscreen, Sam.

It's in a phone holder.

Sorry.

I don't mean to dox you to the
cops here, but it's not in my lap.

It's, it's like, no, no, no.

It's, I'm no different to an Uber driver.

No, it's true.

Your setup was very, very much like
that and Yeah, like an Uber driver.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and, but you were managing
several chats and apps and navs

and you were just doing it all.

It was, and I was like, wow, this is, uh,
it's like, what's, like watching someone

who's like really awesome at a, playing
a bunch of musical instruments or Yeah.

A gamer.

I got too deep into it.

You did.

And then, you know, if you have a problem
with existential emptiness, go and.

Download four different dating apps and
start going on first dates because it's

gonna make it the worst it's ever been.

It like if you're anxious and you take a
drink and you're like, oh, it's instant

relief from the anxiety, how good is this?

But boy, it's gonna come roaring back.

Yeah, it comes back in the morning,
which is why I stopped drinking.

Right.

That's right.

And it's why we, all the people I know
that have stopped, you know, and yeah.

We didn't stop 'cause of how we
felt after three drinks, we stopped

'cause of how we felt in the morning.

Indeed.

Delay discounting the way I feel about
this now is more important to me than

how I'm gonna feel about it later.

Yeah.

And you know, that's an essential piece
of psychology for Yeah, that's right.

I know I'll feel terrible
tomorrow, but fuck tomorrow.

Fuck tomorrow.

Yeah.

And you know, fuck future me.

Yeah, yeah.

And fuck present me.

Really?

Yeah.

Like there's a kind of
inherent destructiveness,

you know what Freud called?

The death drive, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

Beyond the pleasure.

Beyond the pleasure principle.

Oh.

Seen that with alcoholism
destroy in my father.

Huge.

Just took it, wrote it
all the way down to death.

Yes.

But yeah, like that was the point, right?

Yeah.

Like at the same time as I went on
that first ever Tinder date, yeah.

I didn't have a drink because
I'd just stopped drinking.

Yes.

So the, I've never, this was all new.

I've never been on a dating app
date and had a drink of alcohol.

Okay.

And that's in 10 years of, yeah.

Nearly 10 years of dating
apps and not drinking.

Yeah.

You said 2015.

So yeah, we're talking 10 years.

Yeah.

So like I've never had a drink on
a dating app date, which, you know,

I've got friends who don't drink
much, but they have to have a drink

on a dating app date, you know?

Yeah, I could see that.

Yeah.

And most people could relate to that.

Yeah.

So I've had to learn a whole different way
of relating to women that doesn't involve

a bit of false confidence from alcohol.

Well, it sounds like though, in
this situation, were you engineering

false confidence in some other way?

I don't know.

I, in the end, I was just intense
and desperate enough that I

got over the line, you know?

Yeah.

And then, yeah, I got laid a bunch.

Sure.

I wanted like, over that 10 years.

But I'd found what, and I don't know how
much of a sex addict I was or wasn't,

but I found what anyone who has that
addiction will find, which is that

ultimately it makes you feel more empty.

And you think you can fill a void,
but it's an unfillable void and

it actually makes you feel worse.

Like any addiction, I guess.

That's right.

The things we use to palliate the
stuff we can't tolerate, doesn't it?

It's not a neutral thing.

It makes it worse.

Yeah, that's right.

So I don't know.

I want to be on the other side of
that, and this quote's very helpful

in making me realize that if you find
someone good, try and stick with them

and make it work, because it's not
gonna be that easy to find someone else.

No, that's right.

And the other thing I that that's,
well, that's exactly right.

But more importantly, even well as
importantly, sorry, even if you do

or can or will, and even if you know
with complete certainty that you

are going to meet other people that
are suitable or just as good, right.

It doesn't matter.

It's like you have to start from
zero every time and you, you.

The stuff you've built up and the
investment you've made and the

lessons you've learned, somewhat
transferrable, but you still have to

work through your own, you know, long
tunnel of shit every time, you know?

Yeah.

And it's like, it's just,
it's kind of a waste.

Yeah.

You know, it's good to get past
that and get into something a bit

more meaningful, which That's right.

Because you, you know, we can
learn from relationships and we

can, like, we can do a better job
the next time and all of that.

But what, what we can't transfer
is the appreciation that we

develop for that person over time.

Yeah.

That is non-transferrable and like, if
you're doing it right, whether it's,

you know, friendships and romantic
relationships it's a, this conscious

and unconscious process of developing
appreciation and getting to the layers

of the person with patience and.

Experiencing ordinariness in
like a good ordinary sort of way.

This is the kind of stuff that I can
look back and clearly see that was

missing and just far just preoccupation
with like trying to feel better and

preoccupation with just in the head a
lot and not just like where it's at and

what's happening right now, you know?

Mm-hmm.

Like so Yeah.

Another, another, another
heater from Alanza Botton.

Yeah.

I think we should wrap it up.

Sam, do you have any final thoughts?

I mean, obviously you are not
looking to go back into the

dating world anytime soon.

Yeah, and I respect that decision.

I respect, whichever way you go on that,
but like, I'd like to, I think it's very

mature that you're taking some time after
16 years, well, you could call it mature.

Mm, well, you're heartbroken.

Yeah, that's, that's right.

So there's a mixture of just a bit more
common sense and practicality and liking

myself more, not needing to prove,
not feeling like I kind of, not really

feeling like I need to prove something to
myself as much, uh, or far less, maybe.

It's almost not there at all.

And all the stuff that I do wanna
prove to myself is, it's not to do

with how other people feel about me,
it's, it's just got to do with living

up to my own potential in my own life.

Like, that's, that's of
greater interest to me.

But as you say, heartbroken and there's
a feeling of No, I mean, I'm okay.

Right.

More than, okay.

I'm okay.

But like, I just feel I don't
need to make it go away.

Mm.

That's a nice thing.

And I don't.

Want to muddy the waters and
I don't wanna muddy someone

else's waters for that matter.

Yeah.

You know, like when I went and got
my first ever dating app account, I

was probably at least a year early on
doing that than I should have been.

So, you know, like I wouldn't
recommend anyone to rush into it

after a long-term relationship.

And that person on that
first date was right.

I wasn't ready.

No.

And if I was wiser, I would've
taken that kiss and then banked

that for another year and just gone
and done some grieving and some

processing and been a bit more mature.

But of course I was like, wow.

Did you, did you, yeah.

Sorry, go on.

Well, it was just like, wow, a dating app
is an actual thing that actually works.

And an actual beautiful woman proof of
concept will give me an actual kiss in the

real world, just from swiping on my phone.

It's mana from heaven.

It was mana from heaven.

Yeah.

It seemed to have so much potential
and it's been so disappointing

and, um, pain inducing.

And just, ugh, it's given me such
horrible feelings over the last 10 years.

Sounds like it.

And I, that's why I appreciate
hearing, hearing a lot from

you about, because you've never
been on the dating app, right?

Never.

Yeah.

Never in the old days with like,
whatever there was back then, you know?

No.

Whatever it was.

Yeah.

Like websites.

Yeah.

Websites like I, but it wasn't a cool
thing to do until the apps came along.

No, that's true.

And it was advertised on
late night television.

Yeah, that's right.

Along along with the
astrology and the Yeah.

The phone sex lines.

And it just struck me that
these, you know, astrology,

phone sex, um, internet dating.

Internet dating and like dem tell, like.

B buy it on the phone.

Yeah.

Until e empty later.

It's like all these things, it's
all one piece, you know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah.

And it probably was.

It probably is.

Yeah, it is.

And like I knew enough at the time to
be like, none of this is the answer.

But you know, 'cause I thought
I had other answers as well, you

know, but, but I was still up late
feeling it and watching those things.

Yeah.

And you know, I was in the market in
a sense, but like, but now there would

almost be an expectation that at some
point you're gonna download a dating app.

Well, certainly friends
have said it to me.

Yeah.

Like talking to you,
talking to Ali and Yeah.

Just mainly you two.

But I do have other friends who've said a
bit about it, but I actually dunno a ton

of people that spend much time on those
or I'm not in close communication with.

Yeah.

I mean I think the golden era
for dating apps, if there ever

was one, is well past now.

Yeah.

And I think most people
are having a shit time.

Yeah.

It seems to be like a very widespread.

Disillusionment.

Oh, it's massive.

Yeah.

And I would say, you know,
generation defining, yeah.

Uh, but no one knows what the next thing
is, whether it's, yeah, speed dating

or running clubs, or dinner parties
with strangers, or, I've heard about

all these things, but no one, someone's
gonna make a fortune by replacing

dating apps with something else.

Or maybe it's an AI version of a dating
app that's somehow much more targeted

and much better, or, oh, no, no doubt.

Silicon Valley has some absolute
nightmares, uh, cooked up for us,

like waiting to be born, but like,
you know, and I'm sure, look, it's,

it's like, and I don't wanna get two
Marxist here, but I, I, I wanna say

that you'd love to get two Marxist.

I, I do want to, so I'm gonna, and
it's, and it strikes me that like,

you know, 'cause I've, I, I've been.

So I'll just preface
what I'm about to say.

I've been taking a bit of a dive in
the last, I don't know, four or five

years into, you know, attachment
theory among other things to try and

make sense of my experience of, you
know, relationships over this time.

And I've done a lot of therapy, but
I've learned something about, you

know, business because I, I've become
interested again in, you know, like

not just working a job, but like, can I
build something, you know, for myself.

And, uh, one of the things I've learned
is that if you make a, offer a useful

service, right, you know, to others like
a consultant or coaching or whatever,

there's a lot of people going into
that sort of stuff that it's, that's

a difficult thing to scale, right?

You just go like, my, my daily
bread is teaching, right?

It's, and what I do, it's not scalable.

I can't do more of it.

Like I can't, well, in theory I could
create an AI avatar of myself to like

do a lot of it or whatever, and I
could scale that, but like that's yuck.

But most of like the real value
that humans deliver to one

another, either commercially or non
commercially is non-scalable, right?

But the holy grail in business
is the scalable product.

Zero, marginal, effective,
marginal costs, right?

So you've developed the product, you're
maintaining it, and now you're selling it.

And most of your costs
have already been paid for.

And now it's, you know, pure profit
or as close to it as you can get.

And you know, you, you going for
pure profit is not very Marxist.

No.

Well this is not, this is
what I'm saying, right.

I haven't even thought,
even cared about profit.

That's right.

Well, to take no, the kind of business
I'd like to create, it's like genuine

value and it's not mega scalable.

It's like something small and valuable.

Right.

But over in Silicon Valley, what
they want is something that's

infinitely scalable, that generates
massive profits at an enormous cost

to the humans implicated in it.

So it's ultimately, you don't just
want an infinitely scalable product,

an intellectual property, you
actually want an infinitely scalable

platform that other people then
become workers on your feudal estate.

And then you generate.

Profits by keeping them in a
state of, um, dependency and,

uh, reliance and nonfulfillment.

Right.

So that's what my understanding from
you and Ally is that what Dating apps.

Correct.

So I've been working for the
dating apps for 10 years.

You've been working for them?

Yeah.

I've read Yarn Farkas, techno Feudalism.

So I didn't Yes.

Swallow the whole thing whole, but
it was, it was very charming book.

But it's very, very
relevant to this discussion.

And this quote is so appealing because
it has the simplicity and truth to it.

Well, it puts the value back in the
human that you might be interacting with.

That's right.

And so I think, like I said, a number of
things have to be very consciously put

in mind for the quote, to operationalize
properly, to really work for people.

And one is, you know.

Figuring out the sort of ordinary
conditions where you can actually discover

that you like another person and they
like you, and that it's not filters

and layers and mind games and drama
and whatnot, just like the real thing.

And the dating apps are absolutely
gonna get in the way of that, partly

by creating this illusionary sense of
infinite possibility, which is going

to create infinite dissatisfaction
with whoever's in front of you.

Yeah.

And the slightest thing that's wrong
with someone, you just discard them.

The slightest thing
that's wrong with someone.

Mm-hmm.

And that's how my brain's been rewired
from predating apps to now is that

yes, now the slightest thing wrong
with someone, I want to end it.

That's right.

And the illusion of exactly.

And the illusion of infinite
variety, infinite variety

and infinite replaceability.

So the ultimate, all of that has
fucked my brain, but I'm working

on unfucking it as we speak, and
I'm having some success actually.

Uh, yeah, that's right.

And so getting away from a business
model, which is, uh, you know,

fundamentally a drug dealer or a, what's
the word, pimp that is keeping, uh,

well, creating, creating for a start
is a huge confusion about the buyer

and seller, and obscuring the real
transactions that are taking place and

commodifying the humans in the process.

And that is, let's say, always been a part
of, you know, human culture since earliest

times, the attempt to capture the value
of another person's existence and labor.

Right.

This is a very ancient thing that was
achieved in different ways, slavery,

forced labor and taxation, and, Perhaps
to some degree we all have to sacrifice

a little or something to something,
you know, the state or the church or

whatever, But perhaps we're now in
a place in history where we've got

these powerful forces array against
us, this, these powerful platforms.

But I think maybe also we're
in a spot where we can actually

be, have critical consciousness
about these things and resist it.

And maybe not for the first time in human
history, but I feel like there's a lot

of people standing around going, Hey.

I've been commodified and I've commodified
others, and I don't want to do that.

Yeah.

Do you know what, think
That's where I'm at, man.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I'm trying, I'm trying real
fucking hard to defrag my brain.

Defrag your brain.

It's, yeah.

And, you know, yeah.

I did some damage.

I mean, 10 years I haven't had to
drink, but I've done damage with

dating apps to my whole wiring,
you know, and I'm trying to Yes.

Get my relationships
with women back on track.

Like I said, I feel like I could
sit down with anyone I've dated ever

and have dinner for an hour, and
by the end, they wouldn't hate me.

Whereas there's a bunch
of women out there mm-hmm.

Who, because I texted them too
many times, I tried to add them

too many times on Instagram Sure.

Or whatever.

Stop doing that.

Yeah.

I think I'm, I'm, I'm a bad guy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I don't think they would
really think that of me in person.

But I've been compulsive and
obsessive enough via text.

Or via, uh, social media or dating apps
that I've, I've been a bad actor in

the world without meaning to, and I,
yeah, I won't get the chance to repair

that and have those conversations.

And ironically, there's no way to make
that happen without reaching out to

people who don't wanna be contacted.

So Yeah, of course.

But, but I'm confident that if I could
ever do that, if I could ever really

just sit down and have a conversation
that we, that I could repair those bonds.

I'm glad you came back to this and
turn xs into friends, you know?

That's right.

Because, and, and to what is it?

Make amends.

and it's not necessarily about, only
about what you get and this, uh,

this sense that, cause you, I I,
I could assume that, oh, I, I, you

know, you wanna correct the record
and you wanna go away feeling like

they've changed their file on me.

Yeah.

And that's what, that's what you wanted.

But it's not just about that.

I think it's about, Well, you wanna be
forgiven, which is very understandable.

But all I also, I was curious though,
because you also mentioned early on

that like, you know, having these text
exchanges, you know, from dating apps

or other sources where like it's a buzz
and there's a vibe and then in person

it's like within five minutes, you know?

Oh, that happens to everyone all the time.

Right?

So some of your best work
in a sense was on text.

Yeah.

And some of your worst work.

That's true.

So I'm good at texting, but I have
fucked it up many times as well.

I think you're good at,

it struck me, would you say this is
true, that on the text medium that

you are good at that it kind of, it,
it sort of represents this a, a way

where you can be like falsely the
best version of you and in a sense,

falsely the worst version of you?

Yeah.

Kind of.

Neither are true in a way.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The, the guy that.

It just has all the answers on the
chat or the guy that is just infinitely

making it worse on the, it's the
same person when you think about it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That, that's what, that's what
struck me because, 'cause yeah, there

were two different stories going
in two different directions, and

they're both true at the same time.

One was like having, creating the great
vibe on the text, and then the other was

like making things worse than they needed
to be and worse than they really are.

Yeah.

And that's the desire in both cases
when it came to the real conversation,

the, the, the positive version of
yourself and them that you've built up

couldn't be sustained by the reality.

Yeah.

And then in the case of where you've
messed it up epically via text, the,

the reality was better than that.

You see what I mean?

I mean, Ali Ali used to be on this
show who I invited onto this show

after meeting her from a dating app.

You did do some Yeah.

Never hooking up with her.

Yeah.

And then inviting her onto the show.

And then she became part of the show
for a year, 18 months or something.

It was a good thing.

And then we had a falling out via text.

Yes.

And when we had a phone chat,
it was all, everything was

restored and we were mates again.

And then the second you got on text again,
then we had another falling out via text.

Then we never had another either
phone chat or in person conversation.

Yeah.

But if I sat down with Ali for an hour
and she told me what her problem was

and I listened and I told her what my
perspective of everything would be fine.

Yeah, I think so.

And yeah, so, so that's
what I mean, the medium.

Like the medium is the message.

Well, the medium is the
fucking, is the disaster.

Yes.

For me.

Agreed.

It's like agreed because
I'm hiding behind a screen.

So I am, I'm not saying things that I
don't believe, but I'm saying things much

harsher than I would if I'm looking in
someone's eyes and seeing their Yeah.

Emotional response.

'cause I don't really like hurting people.

Yeah.

So I'm able from hiding behind
the screen and just texting.

That's right.

I'm able to mm-hmm.

Seem much more brutal than I actually am.

Yeah, that's right.

And it just made me realize, of
course this applies equally to just

online discourse generally, whether
it's YouTube comments section Yeah.

Keyboard warriors.

Right.

Keyboard warriors.

And it's simul, it's two things.

It's like a, uh, a kind of false or
unearned confidence and also a cowardice.

Yeah, that's right.

It's the two at the same time.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's really interesting.

It's kind of like, it's a,
the ultimate arrogance of the

throwaway remark on the in.

Where you've not treated the person
on the other end as a person.

And, and then the other side of
that, which is, yeah, just lurking

in the comments, feeling worthless.

You know, it's kinda like
treating others as worthless

and feeling that way yourself.

And it reminds me strikingly
of the dating app experience.

It's, it's the same sort of thing.

Yeah.

And so to add one more thing in the kind
of, um, to the earlier Marxist sort of

analysis, but also the je thing comes to
mind in this connection of, um, some of

the scholars and nerds I've been listening
to talk about mediation as, as in like

intermediation by technological platforms.

and that this goes hand in hand
with the, the commodification

and the sort of a creation of a
false sense of freedom, which.

Is, is an illusion in
reality the opposite.

And that Yeah.

It all just keeps coming back
to like interpersonal connection

and de mediaing human connection.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But like, yeah, I don't, I think we
should, I think we need to go, Sam.

Mm-hmm.

But I'll finish on this.

Yeah.

I don't think there's anyone
I've had a problem with in the

LA in the last 10 years that I
couldn't sit down and sort it out.

And that's romantic or not romantic
friendship and, but there's been a whole

bunch that have been crashed and burned
via text, you know, so I've got, I've got

a lot of regret around that, but I, I did
it, I did it well, you know, and then,

and then here's, well then look and, you
know, I'll, I'll hold that regret and

then I'll, you know, I'll add my piece,
which is, well actually, conversely.

The damage I did was in person.

You know, so it's like we, we,
we have to be on the lookout.

That possibility.

Well the thing is, Sam, me and you
are good because we get together

and see each other in person.

Yeah, that's true.

It's the only way we do this.

And you know, when we had, when we
were chatting on the group chat, at

one point you called me a cunt 'cause
you didn't think I cared enough

about the Palestinians or whatever.

And.

That's a classic example of like, you
know, you probably in my life have

never called me a cunt in person.

Oh, no.

Except in the, the, maybe
in the Aussie bloke.

Yeah.

In, in a friendly way.

Yeah.

In the good way.

Not in a, like you're really
fucking angry and upset kind of way.

True.

And that's just classic.

Yeah.

My, yeah.

Yeah.

Seeming like, uh, someone who didn't care
about something that I do care about.

So yeah.

Anyway, we can't open that all up
right now, but it's just, yeah.

There's, to go back to the quote to finish
up, I sit and setting the attention to

value any genuine connection that I find.

Mm-hmm.

And actually work away at something
with someone who deeply likes me,

and that's what I'm fixing to do.

Yeah.

That, and if, and when you are
ready to go back out into the dating

world, you should do the same thing.

Yeah.

Well, that's right.

No, thank goodness that I've, uh,
standing here at this moment feeling.

You know, many things that are mostly
okay and good, but like in this

connection, two quite clear thoughts.

One, oh, it's very clear from my
friend's experience that that is

not a cool, uh, world to enter.

And secondly, just yeah, not feeling the
need and yeah, being like, yeah, it's good

that I am standing here at this moment,
rather than say five years ago when it was

all still like, oh no, this is the thing.

Yeah.

This is exciting.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's like, it's nice that others have
gone before me and experienced that

disillusionment, so I don't have to Mm.

Very wise.

Very wise.

Although, it's funny you said
to me, well, yeah, thank you.

But you said to me, uh, something
which I have thought about a few

times, which is like, you're like,
oh yeah, the apps are dead, but

like, so is the in person ask out.

And I, I ran this by Ali
and I, and I was like.

Is that true?

And she's like, oh yeah,
no, it was dead for ages.

But I don't think that
that's what people want.

So, you know, people want to be asked
out in pub, people wanna be asked out.

Yeah.

But no one's doing it anymore.

Well, I, I always thought women just wanna
be left alone in, if they're in a pub.

Uh, well, I think it's left alone in
the sense that I asked, 'cause I asked

Ali about this and I hope I'm reporting
her, uh, thoughts correctly here.

But it's No, no, ask me out.

But like, don't, like, don't do a whole
drawn out thing on either end of that.

So not a great big long
lead up, hours and hours.

Just like, just do it.

And conversely, if you get a no, not
this big old tail end of that experience.

Yeah, it's just kind of like.

Make a decisive move and then
whatever the answer is, treat

that as decisive to something.

Yeah.

See, I don't think I can, it's like I
don't think I can ever do that sober.

That was a Dutch courage kind of thing,
and I hardly ever did it when I was

drinking, but certainly a few drinks.

Maybe get the courage up to, I
ask someone out, but not now.

No, and I need that mediation of
like, this person has said they're

available for dating and they're
willing to have a text chat that's

Well that was another good one.

It's a shame.

We're just gonna put it out there that
there was an episode recorded a few weeks

ago, which won't, won't make it to air
because it, it got scrambled somehow.

But I feel like we've covered
a lot of the same ground.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, you've been willing to
talk a little bit about your

recent breakup, which I appreciate.

Yeah.

And we don't need to go too deep
into that until you're ready.

Yeah.

But, um, I do think, I do want
this to be therapeutic chats.

That's part of the idea.

Therapeutic chats is we do need to
talk about what's been going on in your

life and the fact we're sitting out on
your patio of your, your bachelor pad.

Oh.

And if you're hearing any birds or
planes or lawnmowers, it's 'cause

we're outside today or car noise.

Beautiful.

Spring day.

Yes.

So yeah, give us some
feedback if that sucks.

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

That's right.

I'm glad we finally mentioned that,
that yes, we decided to record outdoors.

And if it's not to people's liking,
well, you know, we'll hear about it.

Yeah.

And also that, uh, I'm glad we
touched on the lost episode and

then you've made, just a minute ago
you reminded me of the topic that I

wanted to do next, Therapeutic chats.

Yes.

We, in the pre, the pre-show yarn we
had last time, we were talking about

how, or afterwards That's right.

That you can do years of therapy.

But one of the things we should
be trying to achieve in there is

learning how to, uh, have those
therapeutic chats with friends.

Yeah.

That's, uh, yes.

Yeah.

That's a therapist who writes books.

Who I can't remember the
name of who said that.

Okay.

Alright.

Yeah, so pin that.

So we need to come back to that.

Can unqualified people.

Have therapeutic chats.

Therapeutic chats?

Well, this, yeah, this three years of this
podcast has been an experiment in that.

I, I think, and there's something
about putting it out to the public,

which means you have to think
clearly about what you're saying.

Y yes, no, that's exactly right.

So there is this, so to have the meta chat
for a second, there is this interesting

mix of the private and the public.

And so that's, that's an interesting
tension, but also it kind of resolves

this issue we were discussing earlier
of like, have we just turned into a

dating and relationships, uh, podcast?

And I'm like, well, actually you've
reminded me of what it is, is we never

have to worry about the topic because,
or what, you know, the substance

of the show is because it's not.

It's not a content area, it's
not a topic, it's a method.

The therapeutic chat,
that's what dictates.

Oh, so whatever it is.

So if it's dating in relationships
that's on your mind, Joe, lately,

then well, that's what we talk about.

All right, well, let's work out
what's on our mind next week.

What's on our minds next week?

Okay.

Yeah.

All right.

See you mate.

See ya.