The Ten Thousand Things

Hello and welcome to the 10,000 things.

My name is Sam Ellis.

I'm Joe Loh.

And today we're gonna finally
resume our deep dive into the dao.

Actually, can I just say today
we're going to resume our reading

of the DAO chapter by chapter.

We skip chapter three because of a
disagreement about how to interpret it.

But you know, we may come
back to it at some point.

Yes.

Chapter three was quite
authoritarian, Sam.

It struck you immediately and me also as
just a little bit fascist, however, yeah,

I thought it was very fasc and then you
wanted to go and like reinterpret it.

So, we're gonna have to go through so
many mental gymnastics to interpret

it in a non fascist way, which
I'm sure you would've achieved.

But I just, you know, I had
a stronger aversion to it.

And you know what, I had to listen.

So we're gonna do chapter four, which
was hard for me, but there was a

happy thing that came out of it, which
is I found a wonderful commentary

by an amazing scholar, uh, who also
happens to be a lawyer by day, and

really was in a good position to talk
about the legalistic sound of it.

Is this chapter three or Chapter four?

Chapter three.

Chapter three, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

so that was a great discovery.

Anyway, okay.

But we're skipping it.

Yeah.

Anyway, listeners can go and listen
to go and read verse three of the da

de ching and tell us what you think
and possibly, you know, find for

yourself the non fascist, uh, reading
of it, which I think is the true one.

Now, we can make up our, we can also
make up our minds about chapter four,

which is an entirely different feel to
the verse before the chapter before.

Okay.

So this is from distic.com,

which is our usual reference.

The way is empty.

Yet inexhaustible like an abyss.

It seems to be the origin of all things.

It dulls the sharpness, unties the
knots, dims the lights becomes one

with the dust, deeply hidden as
if it, as if it only might exist.

I do not know whose child it is.

It seems to proceed the ancestor of all.

I thought it was deeply hi
hidden as if it only might exist.

Emphasis on the might deeply
hidden as if it only might exist.

Yes, that's, that was how I read it.

I think that's correct because
you put the emphasis on only.

well, there you go.

There's always something to talk about.

So when you sent me this
yesterday, I, I loved it.

I, it's like a cool mountain breeze.

Blew through my mind and I was
like, yes, this is exactly right.

Uh, it's gonna be, this
is the Dao I'm after.

Yes.

Well, the Dao that can be named
is not the true Dao, right?

Mm-hmm.

It made me think of God.

Sam, can you read it again?

'cause it's, yeah.

Just read it again.

Yeah.

The way is empty, yet
inexhaustible like an abyss.

It seems to be the origin of all things.

It dulls the sharpness, unties the knot,
dims the light becomes one with the dust,

deeply hidden as if it only might exist.

I do not know whose child it is.

It seems to precede the ancestor of all.

Yeah, I mean, those last couple
of lines to me, that's God.

Well, many people share your
conclusion and, uh, more than one

commentator has said that the last
line seems to be the only direct

reference to a God in the whole text.

In the whole text.

Mm-hmm.

It seems to proceed.

The all ancestors.

Yes.

And so we're going back to
what was before the Big Bang.

Right.

It feels like that.

And that's, that's the vibe I've
caught from many other people in their

commentary on it, saying that it seems
to refer to, you know, what lies before

the cause of all things, you know?

Yeah.

Like when you're a child and you're
like, wait a minute, if God exists

and God created things, wait a minute.

Who?

Who created God?

Who created God?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So yeah, it doesn't take much.

Childlike imaginary type thinking to
get to paradoxes, which are unsolvable.

Like anyone can do that with
a few leaps of logic, right?

That's right, yes.

I think it's very important to acknowledge
that children are fairly natural

philosophers and that we might overstate
the complexity or difficulty of philosophy

and imagine that, oh, well, you know, we
need to wait till they're a bit older,

but no, children are very ready to engage.

And the reason I mention that,
you know, not just that I work in

education, but, and have children,
but as you say, anyone can quite

readily discover paradoxical things.

Mm-hmm.

Now, some would say that the
source of the paradoxes is

language, which is a good argument.

Dunno if it's a complete argument.

Uh, but the Dao certainly makes
that argument that the dao that

can be named is not the Dao.

In other words.

If you're trying to do games with
language, you won't get there.

Yeah.

And I have this experience of going
from an atheist to a believer in God,

but I can't really use the word God
with pretty much any of my friends.

You're a bit of an exception because
the Hari Christians have a God, right?

Yes.

So very much a personal, you know, a
supreme being who has a personality.

Yes.

Yeah.

So with you, I feel at ease that
I can talk about my newfound

relationship with God, but the
word God is such a very problem.

Yeah.

It's such a loaded and in a lot
of ways, a dead kind of word.

Oh, very good to describe
what I'm trying to describe.

But I could say the God that can
be named is not the true God.

But I think it's exactly the same idea.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But, but that description.

In, that verse about, what is it?

It's in the dust or, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

And you know what, there's some
very interesting alternative

translations of that line, which
we, we may need to mention it.

It seems to be the origin of all things.

It dulls the sharpness, unties the
knots, dims the light becomes one with

the dust, becomes one with the dust.

Mm.

I just love that as a piece of writing.

Oh, it's great.

Yeah.

It's a very poetic text.

And, and, and that's part of
it becomes one with the dust.

Mm.

Well that's like, that's
where we're all headed, right?

I think it's kind of, I think
it's meant to bring that to mind.

Certainly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like yeah, it's very
evocative, but that's, it's.

If I was trying to find a verse to give
someone who was still an atheist, some

sense of what I'm talking about, this
is a pretty good one to point towards.

A higher power.

Yeah.

But I don't know.

Do you know in the Dao if there is a God?

Yeah, I, I think it's a, a question that
it in some ways gets avoided and that you,

very rarely when you read any commentaries
or hear discussion about it, people

don't really engage with the notion of
God all that often, but indirectly, you

know, people might talk about it having
religious or spiritual meaning for them.

I think of it, this text as a work
of philosophy and not, not just as

strictly as a poetic or mystical text.

I think it's a work of philosophy, but
expressed often in ause or poetic way.

But wherever there's philosophy, there's
often the question of God lurking.

And the, the things that people are
trying to work out through philosophy

are often very closely related to
the things we're trying to work out

through, through the, the notion of God.

my very kind of amateur understanding
is that the, the Dao is explaining

a dynamic of apparent opposites,
which is productive of all things

and which resolves all things.

But see, this person who's writing
about this has fa discovered something

and is trying to describe it.

That's how I read it.

Agree.

Like then, you know, when I was an
atheist, I thought all religions were

delusions based on human fear of death.

Yeah.

Whereas now I think they're all
religions are trying to describe

essentially the same thing.

So they're trying to describe an
experience which I can't give to

an atheist if they've never had it.

find a way to understand it,
put it that way so I can mm-hmm.

So I've been drawn to Buddhism lately.

I've been reading more Christian texts.

Yes.

because I've had a profound
experience and I now see the value

in the religions of the world.

Yes.

You no longer just write it off as
a scam or a fairy tale or, yeah.

One of the many stories that, in
that, you know, that new atheist

that, um, Christopher Hitchens
kind of very, Dismissive and, how

idiotic it is and or Richard Dawkins.

Yeah.

Those guys.

You know, they're, they're compelling,
um, speakers and writers, and it

already aligned with how I was
raised to understand religion myself.

Mm-hmm.

so it made sense to be that
guy in the bar in 2005 or

whatever who's like the atheist.

It was definitely a fashionable posture
to, at that time where literally

2005 is right on the money of like,
and a little still going on, you

know, through to the maybe 2010.

And I think we started thinking
about other stuff a bit more.

Uh, I think politics came back,
you know, that was a big one, but.

It was fashionable to say that it
was an empty, useless thing that

only an idiot could be interested in.

Empty, useless thing that
only an idiot could be use.

Interested in.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And or Or find a useful, yeah.

Yeah.

And we'd moved on that.

We're all smarter than that now.

Well, us educated people who've
read a bit of philosophy or

whatever, we're smarter than that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

'cause it was like 150 years
after Nietzche said God is dead.

Right.

Yeah.

Surely this question has
been settled long ago.

Like, and that's what
I always thought, Sam.

Yeah.

Let's all move on.

Until I got myself into a spot in life.

Yeah.

AKA being an alcoholic.

Yeah.

That I couldn't get out of.

Mm-hmm.

Without a spiritual solution,
without some form of surrender.

Totally.

So once I got to that
point, suddenly my atheism.

You know, my dad was an
atheist, alcoholic, and he

died at 50, still an atheist.

So that ego, so there's an egotism
to it, to that new atheism that

where there's a kind of smugness or
self-satisfaction, which is ultimately,

I think if you can find atheism with
alcoholic drinking, you get nihilism.

Oh yeah, yeah.

And once you're in nihilism, then
you're on the way to an early grave.

Yes.

And if you combine a somewhat helpless
state with also this sort of sense

of superiority, it's oof brutal.

Yeah.

There's plenty of people in bars all
around the world who will tell you

the answer to the world's problems.

And they're, they're the
smartest guy in the bar.

They're the smartest guy on the street.

Maybe even in the world.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Insecure.

Yeah.

Big ego, low self-esteem.

Yeah.

That's a typical alcoholic, irritable.

And that was me.

Yeah.

Irritable, egocentric, aggressive.

Yeah.

And take, take a, take
offense at At small things.

Pick on small things.

Yeah.

It's, you know, it's not a great way
to beat and we've seen, you know.

Or the kind of person that takes
delight in pointing out a small typo,

graphical error or a spelling error
in someone's otherwise reasonable

comment on a YouTube video.

You know, that kind of thing.

Yeah.

It's like you, you,
you're missing the point.

You're not engaging with the real thing
Here I was, I was working with the mental

health client the other day who was
talking about stuff he read in YouTube

comments and I'm like, bro, yeah, you
can't be in that part of the internet.

It's like the darkest
part of the internet.

There's some remarkably wise
and w wise and wonderful things

that get said in those sections.

And then there's not, you know, there's
stuff that is just a tail told by an idiot

full of sound and fury signifying nothing.

Yeah.

Which was what came to me earlier.

I think you're in a strong mental
position to handle the internet, Sam.

Oh yeah, I am.

I guess, yeah.

Like you take it with a grain of salt.

This person like me is pretty
hypersensitive and um, I was like, yeah,

I already got him off Twitter a month ago.

Yeah.

And then he came back a couple of
weeks later on, I feel so much better.

I'm off Twitter.

And then he, then he starts
quoting the YouTube comments.

'cause it's funny with YouTube, you don't
think of it as a social media platform.

Yeah, it is.

It is.

But it is, it is.

Yeah.

It, it is officially classified
as that in many, well, they're

banning it for under 16.

That's right.

And it's, it now has that legal
classification, but it had,

it had a practical and, uh,
technological one before that.

But No, no.

It is now legally and morally being
handled in the same way as Instagram

or Twitter, which everyone knows
can be, what is it, what's the word?

Carnival, like fun house mirrors.

You know, like, there's just these
weird reflections of your own

projections and, and then you are
reading other people's weird projections

of stuff and reacting to that.

It's a, it's a fun game for the whole
family, but the government says it's

actually not for the whole family.

You need to have a level of maturity
grounding to be able to deal with it.

And I wonder if maybe.

You know, 'cause what, when he
was, when we were talking about

Christopher Hitchens before, 'cause
I mean he also died relatively young

and uh, I think was fond of a drink.

Uh, I dunno if he'd, it was
the smoking that killed him.

Yeah.

Right, right, right.

And, and then I think of Dawkins also
though, because I mean, he hitchens,

let's face it, smart guy, a really good
essayist, a good speaker, a good debater.

And you know, I read his, I read the
collection of essays, posthumous, you

know, called arguably, and I think I found
something of value in every last essay.

Um, and some of, uh, some of them
I agreed with entirely, but he was

completely wrong about the war in Iraq
or you know, America's invasion of Iraq.

You're talking Hitchens or Dawkins.

Yeah, Hitchens.

Hitchens.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Now, meanwhile, Dawkins, I think
might be the superior intellect,

you know, firm grounding,
academically really a really strong.

Record of publication on the topic
of evolution, dealing with some

particularly thorny issues in there
that are very hard to communicate,

uh, or understand in the first place.

And I think did a wonderful
job in a number of books.

The Selfish Gene Climbing Mount
Improbable, and those are the only

ones I can think of right now.

But Dawkins came along at the
right time for me, kind of having

a not yet deconstructed religious
background, but not a faith.

So I didn't really experience the presence
of God, but I couldn't quite get with the

idea of evolution, it seemed I was still
a sort of a creationist on some level.

Right.

Really?

I've never been a creationist.

Well, no.

As you know, I was an
unexamined creationist.

So you'd never felt the presence of God?

No, I had, I had at times previously.

When did it, when did, when did
you last feel the presence of God?

No, no.

That's a good, that's a good question.

Um.

Yeah, it's been a while, but that
doesn't mean God isn't there.

What age though?

Because you were raised
pretty strictly Hari Krishna.

Well, yeah, I hadn't felt it for some
time, like in my teenage years when I

went to India, I didn't feel it there
either and I didn't, and I started to

wonder if I would and then I did feel it.

Um, oh, when was that?

That sounds important.

Well, I was on the street in lpa,
Nagar F Block in Delhi, new Delhi,

and it's a recent sort of middle class
neighborhood, but it's, you know,

when I was first there, it seemed
like an overwhelming, crazy slum.

But you know, after a while I came to
realize and I was very comfortable.

You know, relatively
orderly part of Delhi.

And I felt less overwhelmed by it.

I started to feel more comfortable there.

And I'd been to some temples and
visited some archeological sites and

like I was having a nice time and I
did a little bit of volunteer work.

But, you know, when I went to temples,
I didn't really feel God, I felt like I

was in a real salesy sort of situation
and, you know, oh, what's this white

guy doing in like a nont tourist temple?

Like, what's this all about?

And so I just felt like an object
of spectacle or interest to others

instead of just being able to
experience what was happening.

I still see you like that, Sam.

Oh, well, no, just
walking down High Street.

It's very true.

And you know me, and yet I'm still
an object of spectacle and interest.

It's, it's very true.

So you can imagine how I
stuck out like a sore thumb.

You did?

Yeah.

Plus I knew a lot of the, I kind of had
a more knowledge of the local stuff than.

Most people who look like me.

So I was this very much doubly
and object of fascination.

Yeah.

Why are you here?

Uh, you're up to something.

You know what I mean?

And they weren't wrong.

I just didn't know what I was up to.

I couldn't tell them.

But part of what I was there to discover
was, well, this, this religion I'd grown

up in, you know, could it resonate for
me now in my twenties, mid twenties?

And also my girlfriend at the time had
been on an exchange, and so it was just

sort of an excuse to visit finally.

Anyway, so I'm wondering how my
neighborhood, where a place where I

felt comfortable and at home relatively.

And, uh, you know, I lived
there for three months and

got, you know, a nodding acquaintance
with a lot of the, you know, locals.

And, uh, I stopped being an object of
curiosity for most people after a while.

Right?

Anyway.

But then one day the Sikhs came past.

In a big procession and they were doing
something that was very familiar to me.

They were banging cymbals and drums
and wearing orange and going down the

street and they were handing out food.

Now, does this all sound familiar?

Mm, very Harry Krishna, right?

Mm-hmm.

And then I thought about it
and I was like, wait a minute.

I know enough about the Sikhs.

Let's see.

They don't worship God so much as
they're kind of all about the guru,

but the guru is the way to God.

That's what the Hari Christian is.

We're all about God, but
it's the guru is is the way.

Uh, and we do the food distribution
on Sundays and you know, well also

every day of the week in the city and
we do these processions and all this,

and I'm like, Hmm, did we just rip off
the Sikhs whole, the whole jam, right?

I think they kind of did.

But that these were all the thoughts
that I had later at the time.

I was like, oh, how good's this?

I love this.

These people are great.

And they handed me a cookie and they were
smiling and I ate it and I felt good.

And I went along down the street with
'em for a bit and I was like, I think I

even vaguely recognized these Bud Johns.

They're a little different actually.

You, they're not by Johns
technically, but you know, whatever.

The mantras, the hymns and, but it's
kind of a fun, it's a festive atmosphere.

And I felt really connected to these
people and they felt, that I felt

that, and they felt, you know, it
was a, it was a very natural and

automatic thing and everybody got it.

And so.

I felt moved by the spirit.

Right.

On that occasion.

Mm-hmm.

So the, the Christians would
describe that as fellowship.

Yeah.

I went to the Golden Temple
in Amate, so, and hung out

with the Sikhs you've been to.

And I was, I've not been
to the Golden Temple.

I was, um, pretty strictly
atheist at that point, but I felt

something, I mean, I went to India.

I was drawn to India.

I tried to get there when I was 19.

Didn't make it past the
Ambassador Hotel in Bangkok.

In Bangkok, yeah.

Which I've told on this podcast
before episode nine or 10 maybe.

The Ambassador Hotel episode.

Mm-hmm.

You never got past Bangkok.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then I finally got to India and I.

I would say when I got to the Golden
Temple, it was such a good vibe.

It seems like a cool place.

Seism has to be one of
the cooler religions.

I think it's very interesting.

It's a more recent religion,
but it has ancient roots.

You realize, oh, okay.

It's drawing on a number of traditions.

You know, Buddhism, Hinduism,
Islam, it's jainism.

It's bringing together all the
major strands of Indian religion,

uh, or the religion of, you know,
that part of the world I should say.

And those traditions tap into
others broad, more broadly.

So, and then you find
Sikhs all over the world.

Yeah.

And with temples all over the
world, and anyone can come.

Yes.

It was a very open, very welcoming.

They fed us a meal.

Yep.

Which they do for everyone who goes
there, which is pretty extraordinary.

That's right.

They've made this commitment.

And that's where, I don't know what
Dawkins and Hitchens would say about

religion when it, when you see it like
in a beautiful building with people

being kind and you feel a warm vibe.

And I was still an atheist,
but I felt the vibe, you know?

Well, they would feel some, they would
find something cynical to say, perhaps.

And what would they say about
two guys in Thornbury in 2025

talking about the Da de Ching?

Like, why are we talking about this when
ev you know, there's a war in Ukraine

and a war in Gaza and Well, it's a,
it's a like climate change and Sure.

Like why are we talking about the talf.

You know, I'll give Dawkins
a little bit of credit.

I don't think he'd bother doing
the what about him at us and

telling, telling us we should think
more about Ukraine or whatever.

But what he would say when did, what
about is in peak about 10 years ago?

Yeah.

That was a, that was huge, wasn't it?

It was probably peak Twitter.

I'm feeling like.

Yeah, it was definitely
a very Twitter thing.

Peak.

Twitter was peak.

What about, we've seen a lot of
what about on other platforms, but

I think Twitter was the number one.

Yeah.

Like the home ground of what?

About what?

Baptism.

I hadn't thought about that for a while.

Yeah.

And occasionally I still see the phrase
because when you catch people doing

it, it's like, yeah, do you know what?

I'm glad we called that out 10 years ago.

Yeah.

It's like it is a shitty
way to argue things.

It is a shitty, yeah.

It's not a good conversation.

No, it isn't.

And do you know what?

You can propose a change of topic.

You can say, personally, I
feel that this topic is more

important and let's change that.

But as a method of invalidating
whatever is being discussed, I

don't think it's very satisfactory.

And I think what Dawkins would go with
instead, I think Hitchens too would

be, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna
try and do my hitchings impression.

Well undoubtedly, you know, uh,
having a meaningful experience.

And that's, I won't
take that away from you.

Uh, but your conclusions about
what the meaning of this meaningful

experience, one, one could debate.

And in fact, I would insist,
I would insist on debating it.

If you were to propose that I accept
the presence of God based on the

fact that you've had this meaningful
experience that moved you in this moment.

I would say that is not
a sufficient argument.

That's what Hitchens would say.

But I reflecting now think God
was at the Golden Temple Amateur.

And I experienced God right.

With those people who fed me.

Yes.

And I think, and it took me years.

Yeah.

But I was already an alcoholic
and I already needed help,

but I didn't know it yet.

You know?

That's interesting.

And, and of course, the people that
are greeted sometimes with the least

charity and the most, uh, you know,
a person you would describe that way,

and yourself and a person who doesn't
even know they're in need of help,

you know, that's very interesting.

And I think that that's part of
why religion exists now, Dawkins

in his later years, you know, what
he would say about that experience.

Ah, Joe, yes.

You know, I, as much as I want to take up
the matter of whether this phenomenology,

the, you know, points to any firm
conclusions about gold or not, which,

you know, obviously I won't accept,
but in my later years, I, I have found

myself, uh, I must admit I'm drawn to
cultural anglicanism and I realize that.

It's, it's the culture in
which I was raised and the de

it does have a meaning to me.

And I, I, I won't reject that
purely on the grounds that I don't

have a personal belief in God.

And neither does the Archbishop of
Canterbury, but he still believes

correctly, or Rowan Williams
the Pryor, that this is still a

tremendously valuable institution.

And I have come to see that.

Mm-hmm.

And of course it has its problems, but
it brings a lot of meaning to people's

lives and it does useful things also.

And it gives out food to people and,
you know, so yeah, I think they've both

got a good point to make, but I, but it
doesn't really prove or disprove anything.

'cause that's my retort to both
of their arguments is when I came

into addiction recovery circles and
I needed to find a higher power.

Mm-hmm.

The line I was pointed to in the book was,
who am I to say there is no God indeed.

And that was my conclusion at some point,
who am I to say that there is no God Yes.

Like the amount of ego.

Yes.

And people like Dawkins and
Hitchens have the ego Oh, very much.

And Sam Harris.

Yes.

Like all those new atheists, they
didn't lack, they haven't lacked for

ego, you know, so, and certainty,
more importantly, I think that's

their greater crime in many ways.

I mean, I think the ego leads to the
certainty, you know, but there's a.

And there's a brittleness to it
because of course, for every brilliant

argument the Hitchens and Dawkins
made, and there are some great clips

where they really do tear it up.

They spit, they spitfire, they drop bars.

Uh, they've got some bops on the net.

Right?

But here's the problem.

Does it actually convince anybody?

Either way, it's like whatever your
prior position, whatever your leaning

or feeling was prior, it's, it's
kind of, kind of go to work on that.

And I'm not saying they never
changed anybody's mind, but I

think that that might've been a
process that was already happening.

And the, and the problem of like the
phenomenology of that experience,

the feeling moved by the spirit,
like we've both had this experience

with Sikh people that I don't
reject the feeling I had about that.

And I don't, yes, but I don't.

It was the last time you
felt the presence of God.

No, it's not The last time.

A few months later in South India, I.

See, I often did not
feel this inner temple.

Right.

In fact, I didn't, I think often
felt very anti or unreligious

feelings in temples often

was disappointed how I felt.

Or disappointed by some aspect of
the experience or just often just the

intense drive to monetize whatever was,
you know, like the presence of tourists

in these places, which, you know, is
understandable, but it gets in the way.

Right.

Anyway, so there was this temple in
South India in not Oh God, ma yeah.

In um, Rey, there's some, a lot
of amazing temples in the south.

This is just, uh, it's, you know, maybe
in the top five in terms of grandeur

and the number of visitors it gets.

but I was not allowed into the sanctum
sanc doum, you know, the inner.

Space I was allowed into the outer
spaces and the, you know, middle and

towards the inner, but there was a
chamber at the heart of this, I don't

know, thousand year old building.

But religion's being practiced
there a lot longer than that.

And it's an extraordinary place
I highly recommend visiting.

I did not get bothered by the
usual tourist stuff after a point.

Like I was just allowed to just experience
the space without being hassled.

And the, the walls were black with and
greasy from all the GI lamps, you know,

you know, and like, you know, you can't
have electric light in this place.

It's not the d it's just not what
they, they're just doing what they've

been doing there for a long time.

Things are done the same way, more or
less, So you've just, I noticed the

grace of the walls and so the, and
like the blackness from the smoke and

gh, you know, like clarified butter.

It's a particular smell and
I strongly associate it with

religious experience and worship.

Right.

And so I already starting to feel
in irreverent mood, and I was

feeling like not the weight of the
centuries before me, but you know

what I mean, like the mm, the, the
presence of the centuries before me.

Mm-hmm.

I wasn't feeling weighed down
by it or oppressed or odd or

anything, but I just felt a kind
of hush and a reverence, you know?

And, and I was, there was these little
alcoves with different deities in them.

It's very, you know, hinduism's,
very intensely polytheistic, but.

The branch of Hinduism am I come
from Vaishna, GOIA, Vaishna.

They believe in, you know, one God to, you
know, rule them all, Lord of the Rings,

but they're all manifestations of the
one divinity, as are every human being.

Every human being's a manifestation
of that one divinity, right?

So you are a little piece of it
and there's a little piece of the

divinity in each one of us, et cetera.

Part and parcel.

I wasn't thinking about any of
that though, but I was kind of

feeling it on some level and then
I was just kind of taking it in and

just like really taking my time.

It was great.

And then, you know, into the, into the
chamber inside that, you know, you got

the outer chamber, the middle chamber,
then there's kind of another one inside

that I think, and then there's the
tiny little one at the heart of it.

And I was not allowed in there.

Up to that point.

I was not treated like a tourist.

Or a local, just treated neutrally.

But then when it came to this point, it
was like, no, no, you can't come in here.

And I was like, I was like, okay, I
expected to be stopped before now.

And people were pressing into this
small space and there was just such

a vibe, so much atmosphere, and
people really feeling it and, and

I was just content to remain there.

And then it was on my way just kind
of observing for a while, and then I

was on my way out and then I stopped
again and I just really took it in and

I was just like, I just felt, you know?

You felt it?

Yeah.

Mm.

I felt.

This ancient presence.

Mm-hmm.

That's the one.

It's very hard to describe.

Yeah.

And you know what?

The ancient presence, the
ancient, ancient presence.

Well, that takes us back to
the passage really, doesn't it?

I think the ancient presence is
probably the before all the ancestors.

Yeah.

That's the best way.

Before all the answers.

I've never said those two words together.

God.

Yeah.

It's a good, I think that
captures the exact feeling, and

I take it as proof of something.

Mm-hmm.

And I, I couldn't tell you exactly
what, but I think that that's what

this chapter is kind of pointing to,
that, you know, like, you know, you

walk into this place, like India's a
stressful place to travel in, right?

Yeah.

I found it very stressful.

And you walk, you walk into a
space like this, you're still in

hassled tourist mode for a while.

You've kind of, kind of
give yourself time and I.

And I just didn't really
get that opportunity.

And I feel like maybe if I was giving
myself time more often in the right

sort of space, and of course the right
sort of company, 'cause you know, the

confirmation of others isn't important.

But I've gotta tell you, Sam, God is
not trapped in a building in India.

No, God is everywhere.

No, that.

Well, that's exactly right.

And the, but the reason we create these
spaces is to focus that experience

and to, to sharpen it a little.

But of course, you know, proper,
proper Paul line, Christians will tell

you, you know, wherever you gather
and remember me, I am present, right?

Mm-hmm.

You know, then I, I think that that is,
that seems as true as any other statement.

And certainly these huge buildings, they
cost a lot to maintain and, and they

sort of take on this life of their own.

And sometimes it becomes about
the institution and not about.

The object of the whole thing.

Yeah.

I think this verse is pointing to
something kind of more primitive.

And for my spiritual adventure of the
last 10 years, I haven't felt the need

to enter a church, join a religion,
or into a church or physically or

metaphorically go to a temple, or you're
not gonna join a little fellowship, do

some Bible study in someone's front room.

Well, I have joined a fellowship, I guess.

Mm-hmm.

But I can't really talk about that on
the show, and it has scripture, but Yeah.

Yeah.

But whenever we gather, I
would say that God is present.

For sure.

And it's, it's, well, and it's the,
it's the, it's the presence of, it's the

presence of other believers and people
that will work with you in your belief

or your non-belief as the case may be.

And times when you find that you had
a crisis of faith a little while ago.

Yeah.

And the cure for it was just
to double down, you know?

Yeah.

I, I'm, I'm still an analytical
person and an overthinker, so

I'm gonna go through periods of.

A crisis of faith.

But I mean, I think my current
spiritual advisor said that even

Jesus was agnostic a couple of times.

Yeah.

And as I said, Archbishop
Rowan Williamson agnostic.

He didn't say atheist,
but he said agnostic.

Because I came to that, I can't remember
when I had that, those words came into

my mind, but I, I was like, yeah, who
am I to say God doesn't exist often?

It's a, it's a, and when I think
about the most convinced atheists,

I know they are the people who would
say that God doesn't exist because

they're so sure of themselves, Sam.

Well, they take themselves
as their own authority.

Mm.

And and this is what offends some
religious people who believe strongly

in the idea of taking some other
authority as not just technically

correct, but the literally the method.

That's the, how you get the benefit
is to accept another authority

and you that it doesn't work.

Yes.

Surrender, right?

Yes.

Surrender.

And that if you try to navigate
life purely on your own.

Terms, try as you might, you can be
the best person in the world and, you

know, do the best work on yourself and
go to therapy and do exercise and yoga

and, and, uh, journal and, uh, read
the right philosophy and maintain, you

know, a good set of rounded friendships
where there's an equal give and take.

And you can do all that and still not be
the, the full authority on everything.

And, and I mean, I guess that's the
point of having, partly the point of

having those friendships, et cetera,
and referring to the work of others,

you know, in writing or pods, et cetera.

I've very much let myself be guided
and influenced by others quite

consciously, but it's quite another
thing to, but I'm the arbiter on what

I'll accept and reject in terms of the
teachings or the thoughts of others.

But the idea of surrender
is way beyond that.

It is not allowing
yourself to be influenced.

It is not, um, not taking an oppositional
stance, just, just, you know, I'll,

I'll, I'll allow this to happen.

I won't reject it outta hand.

It's not even like
actively seeking it out.

It's just like, nope, I, I declare
that I shall obey this thing.

Which is really something, you
know, normally what are we obeying?

You know?

Well the Christians would say,
well mammon that, that's who

we're all serving, isn't it?

Yeah.

I mean, theoretically I've surrendered,
I've surrendered to God and now

I'm trying to do God's will.

Well, 'cause that's what follows
from surrender, isn't it?

And what God's will is isn't often
clear, but what God's will isn't.

Yeah.

Is almost always clear.

Yeah.

So for the last, I would
say month, I agree.

I agree entirely with that since
I've had my new spiritual advisor.

Mm-hmm.

I've been playing with this concept
of just doing, I already surrendered

nearly 10 years ago, but I seem to
forgot that that surrender happened.

Ah, the ego covers these
things over, doesn't it?

Yeah.

So I've still been trying to control
things that I can't possibly control.

Like even scientifically, I cannot,
no matter how rational, like no matter

how you look at it, rationally, I
can't control a lot of the things that

my mind tries to get me to control.

Right?

Yes.

So I've gotta surrender those things.

Yes.

But then it's very helpful to have this
concept of God's will, because what I've

always had, and I don't know about you,
Sam, but I've always had a conscience.

Sure.

So I've always known whether
you are atheist or not.

That's right.

As an atheist, I had a conscience.

Mm-hmm.

And now I get to bring it in as a mm-hmm.

Believer and put it to work
and to try and stick to it.

It's, um.

It's really helping, it's
really helping my relationships.

It's helping my mm-hmm.

Peace of mind.

Um, I'm, but I, I mean, it's gonna
make me what my dad would've thought

of as his real goodie two shoes.

'cause I'm not gonna, you'll never
be a goodie two shoes because

I'm not gonna, like, in the final
sense, I'm not gonna steal, I'm

not gonna lie, I'm not gonna cheat.

I'm, yeah.

You know, if I'm gonna do God's
will in every moment, then I'm

gonna be quite a different person.

Well, no, of course.

Uh, well, actually, well, but
no, but isn't this an interesting

question you've raised?

If I follow God's will, will I
be a different person to, you

know, who I was when I was 20?

Or leaving aside the, just
the process of maturity.

Right.

and just bitter experience
that you've learned from.

Right.

But aside from that, like
all else being equal, right.

Would you be.

Different.

Okay.

Well, your answer to that is yes, at
least to some degree for the last month,

I've done certain things differently.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Because when I go to do the
thing that's not, well, I've

noticed a difference in you.

Yeah.

Because when I go to do the
thing that's not God's will, you

know, I, I don't You feel it.

Yes.

And you don't.

And everyone has a conscience.

Well, nearly everyone.

Um, and Dawkins and Hitchens
argued passionately that, you

know, the believers did not have,
uh, a monopoly on conscience.

Yes, that's right.

Or morality.

I agree with that.

I agree with that.

I, I, I, yeah.

And I don't think there's
any sense arguing you have,

we all have a conscience.

That's right.

And I don't think there's any,
unless apart from sociopaths perhaps.

Um, but even some of them
it is said sociopaths and

psychopaths, are they psychopaths?

I thinks that's right.

Sociopaths can actually have a conscience.

Um, it's a complicated thing
and it's debated, but Yeah.

But when it comes to, you know, 99% of us.

It's pretty clear that nearly everybody
has at least some notion of right and

wrong that isn't just held intellectually.

Right.

So we are, you know, laws
or rules, but no, no.

Some sort of conviction
that's coming from within.

Right.

And yeah, I shouldn't
speak for anyone else.

That's always been my experience.

No, no.

I, I think this is most, I mean, I
mean, I've always had a strong sense, I

mean, a lot of people right and wrong.

And when I was like destroying myself
with alcohol, I knew that I, you knew.

Now I would say I was
going against God, yes.

I was destroying creation.

Well, well, I would, I would point
you to well, my understanding of

Paul's formulation of sin, which is
not to break the rules, but to miss

the mark, to fail to love others.

I love that.

To sin is to miss the mark.

Yes.

And, and to, yeah.

But see, it's interesting, isn't it?

Because what's the other word
for the dao is the way Yes.

In that quote.

So to mi, so sin is to
miss the way, the way Yeah.

Is God's will.

Yes.

Can I say that?

That's that.

I think that that's what this
verse, so I can be a Daoist.

Yeah.

And follow God's will, but
I'd call it something else.

Yes.

But I would know I would do the
same thing, which is when I know

something's wrong, I don't do it.

There you go.

I put it really simply.

Well, I think, and that
would be following the way.

Yes.

In DAOs terms.

Yes, that's right.

And I think the Dao often is
saving something quite simple

and it chooses to do it in a
fairly obtuse or paradoxical way.

Because I think the assumption, one of the
many assumptions, but one of the key ones

in the text is that we experience things
paradoxically and that we feel at odds

with ourselves and we feel at odds with.

We feel divided within, and we feel
that the world is this and not this.

And, and, and we, we experience our
consciousness not as a unified thing.

And as we were discussing last
time that we are plagued by strange

and sudden intrusive thoughts.

And we've experienced our consciousness
as this just wild, unruly, bizarre thing.

Oh, I go through two hours
of hell every morning.

Yeah.

Just from my thoughts.

That's absolutely horrible.

Yeah.

But I, I go, I go to bed dreading
it knowing that I'm gonna wake up

and have two hours of struggle.

That's, you know, that is brutal
chunk of, that's while I'm sitting in

peak hour traffic, driving to work.

Oh, well, no, the Geneva Convention
bans, uh, uh, you know, commuting

in traffic, uh, I think you
cannot make a prisoner war do it.

It's cruel and unusual punishment.

Oh.

But, but, but, but I was gonna
say something before about, um.

The conscience thing.

So when I said before, but Dawkins
and Hitchens would say that, you

know, believers and non-believers
alike can have a conscience.

But I think that there's an important
thing to add here, which is that

people will experience this conscience
and that fail to act on it, and

they will feel tortured by this.

It is.

But if you're a nihilist,
it doesn't matter.

Right?

Well, if you're a nihilistic
alcoholic, drinking yourself to

death, you can do whatever the fuck
you want because nothing matters.

No, but, but you, you don't experience
this as liberating or as meaningful.

That's, you know, that's why I think,
you know, nihilism is not like a phase

we all pass through when we're 15.

I think it's a phase we all pass through,
perhaps by the day or the week that

we all have that that nihilism is just
there waiting for us at all times.

Yeah.

Like, like entropy or, or.

Alienation or any, you know, these are
sort of universal experiences, but another

one of those universal experiences is
it's not available to all at all times,

but some sense of this ancient presence
or a sense of, a sense of universal

meaning or something like that, which
I firmly believe, I've known atheists

that have experienced that and then have
formulated it in some different way.

But that's the thing we're pointing to.

But, but when it comes to trying
to follow your conscience, it

seems to really help to have some
sense of a power or an authority.

Whose will you are?

Or, or its will that you are acting?

In accordance.

It's quite curious to me, Sam,
that as a former atheist, I

know what God's will isn't.

Yes.

But I'm telling you, it's
pretty fucking obvious to me.

Yeah.

Because I mm-hmm.

Have experienced a loving God.

Yes.

Who cares for me and
wants the best for me.

Abba.

Yeah.

That's the word that some a lot of
people are using now, perhaps Abba.

Yeah.

He who precedes, or she
who precedes all ancestors.

Mm-hmm.

Abba Ahma.

Yeah.

Mm.

Uh, the ancestor of all ancestors.

Yes.

Because the other part about having a
God is that you think that if you do

the right thing, things might turn out
better than if you connive and cheat

and steal or take shortcuts or, yeah.

Whereas if you are purely a
materialist, you're just gonna think.

Well, I'll just steal that thing,
or I'll just scam that person.

Or I'll just cut that corner.

Well, yeah, yeah.

Or, or you might, you, you might say, oh,
I won't do that because it's not optimal,

because, uh, you know, there might
be some social cost to me to do this.

There might lose reputation or whatever.

But I don't think that
that's very satisfying.

And I don't think, oh, I, I, I will not
steal because a rule says I shouldn't

or I will not steal because it might
damage my reputation if I'm caught.

Or that a sanction will be
applied by the courts, that I

might go to prison or something.

I don't think that really gets at it.

And when my, you know, and when my
kids say, when my students say, you

know, something charmingly naive,
like, you know, we need the police

to stop people from doing crimes.

And, and I'm like, I, okay, so on
the way here to school today, you

didn't take someone's lunch money.

Even though you could have, because
the cops might get you, and they're

like, no, what are you talking about?

And I'm like, why didn't you rob someone?

And they're like, I didn't want to.

I'm like, why didn't you want to?

Is it 'cause of the cops or is it
'cause you just don't want to do it?

And they're like, well, I didn't
need to take anyone's lunch money.

And I'm like, well, even if you
did need to, you were hungry.

You'd still not want to do it.

Right.

Why don't, why don't you just reach
over there and why don't you just

punch that other kid in the face?

Just do it right now.

Who cares?

Right?

There's no cops here.

Right?

Okay.

They might come later and arrest you,
but, but you naturally recoil at the

thought of doing that to somebody.

Why?

Because why would I want to?

You're only gonna do that if you are
in some form of distress or you've

dehumanized that person for whatever
reason, that basically there's something

in us that goes, it's not right.

But to just encode this purely as
a rule is not very satisfactory.

To encode it as like a materialist,
let's seek the optimum path through

life for maximum personal success.

That's not very satisfactory.

I think it seems to work much
better if we try to experience

this as a truer way of living.

And then that, yeah, I don't see, I've
started reading a little bit of Christian

stuff, but I don't do anything 'cause
I want to go to heaven or avoid hell.

Correct.

But in the present moment,
I want a clear conscience.

Yes.

So it's part of getting sober.

I did stop stealing little things from
the supermarket and I haven't done it

for 10 years and I've stayed sober.

Yeah.

And it was, it wasn't obvious at
the time when they told me, you've

gotta stop doing any stealing.

Um, personally, I personally, it
doesn't bother me if a person robs

from Coles or Wool Woolies, uh, have
however, or Bunnings or whoever, but.

I get what you mean.

Yeah.

I could, I I had the, I had the form.

It's undermining your spirit.

I had the form of justification,
which is they extract

billions of dollars of profit.

Well, they're thieves.

Yeah.

Therefore, it's morally right.

It's okay to steal from thieves.

And then I was told, well, Joe, if
you want to save your own life and

stop drinking alcohol till you die,
you are gonna have to stop stealing.

And I don't really care what
your moral justification is.

You need to stop doing that
because now you're gonna live

a life of rigorous honesty.

And I have tried to stick to that.

And I haven't stolen a single thing.

I haven't, I haven't fudged anything.

Um, or failed to Yeah.

Repay a small loan or Yeah.

Yeah.

the difference between someone
who's shooting at something and

someone who's not, it's profound.

Mm.

That's, yeah, that's interesting.

And, and I, you know, it is, is it,
it's one thing I learned in therapy.

It's like, do you want to be able to
look yourself in the mirror or not?

Are you living by what
you'd like, like to or not?

Is the, is the Dao trying,
trying to tell us what to do?

No, because it knows that any attempt
to encode in language what you ought to

do or, and ought not to do, will fail.

And that people will game that language.

Mm.

They will seek exceptions.

They will rules lawyer it,
they will seek to apply it.

Im, uh, impartially or very
partially to themselves and very

partially to those they don't like.

And this is a fundamental teaching
in the Bible that most humans are

very uneven with their application of
justice to themselves and to others.

And I think that that is very true.

And one of the reasons this happens
is because if we mistake the word

of the rule for the purpose and
the, the, the real thing, that we

will try to fucking play games with
it, because that's what humans do.

So what does the, how the Dao avoids
this problem by going straight at

the paradoxical nature of it, right?

And it goes, I'm not gonna
give you the easy answers.

You have to work on it.

I'm gonna tell you.

About the, I'm gonna tell you about the
forces and the things that are at work.

I'm gonna try to describe the landscape
of your own consciousness and the

landscape of the universe itself.

And then I'm gonna set the coordinates,
and then you are going to navigate a path

through the middle of those coordinates.

And you are responsible for that.

And you have to be conscious of
that at all times, but also become

unconscious of it and just act in
the right way when it is clear and

obvious that there's one thing to do.

Mm-hmm.

So it's sort of, it's, it's
not being mystical, it's not

dodging the question, it's, it's
pointing us to inescapable things.

And it's, it's, it's basically, I feel
like it just states over and over again.

You can't cheat the system.

That's what I'm trying to say.

Yeah.

See, I, I'm sitting here.

Yeah.

Trying to be honest.

The system meaning the nature of things?

Yeah.

Reality itself.

Your own experience.

I'm sitting here trying to
be honest and I don't know.

Mm-hmm.

I don't know.

I don't have a path financially to
say, being able to take an interstate

holiday with my kids or to feel the
level of security financially where you

wouldn't have to stress about your stats.

Yeah.

I don't have a path forward.

Like a lot of people are out there
hustling and side hustles and

Yeah, on, on interstate holiday.

It's not on the cards for me
for quite some time, so yeah.

I don't know how to make life the way
I want it to be, if that makes sense.

I don't know that, but I have faith.

Faith, what you mean?

I see what you mean.

Yeah.

That I have faith now that if I am.

As good a person as I can be.

Mm-hmm.

I will live the best life
that's possible for me.

Now does that mean I never
leave Victoria again?

I actually have no idea.

But I, you know, I sometimes
wonder myself about that.

Yeah.

But like, I, I have that faith now,
and so I just, you know, I don't

just, I do my job because I wanted to
do a job that was, that had meaning.

Yes.

And that's why even today, I, I had a
good day at work because I did my job

trying to do a good job and trying to
connect with people with a mental illness.

Yeah.

And the other stuff, the system
stuff, the stats is just the game.

Correct.

So I, you know what you're pointing to
the stuff that the jail would very readily

recognize, the tension between legalism
and the need for systems and hierarchies

and authorities and the need for something
much more spontaneous and true than that.

Yeah.

I wanted it points to both those things.

Yeah.

Yes.

I wanted meaning I got meaning.

Yeah.

And now I've got meaning.

What do I want?

Cash.

Yes.

You know, but I can't get cash.

Well, it's interesting you're working your
way down Maslow's Hierarchy of needs from

the, yeah, from the top to the bottom.

Yeah.

And of course, that's what, well, that's
what a lot of your dummies do, isn't it?

You start, you know, Kami, start
with the bottom stuff, you know,

survival, status, autonomy.

And then they work their way
up to, you know, the, well,

they might eventually discover.

After adding another wing to the mansion.

Actually, I think there's more
to life than this, and I haven't

quite managed to get at something.

I might be missing something here.

And then the DBA bums are like, nah,
man, let's start with the things

that are just epically and eternally
true, and just not worry about the

other stuff, which is all very well.

And then you've got kids, and then
you're like, actually, I think

part of my dharma is to provide
materially for these children.

Yeah.

And that, that's as true as,
uh, sitting around me talking

about the Dow or whatever.

Yeah.

But you know, I, they, they do not
count on me for an interstate holiday.

And if they never have one
on my dime, that'll be okay.

Because like, just like you said with,
you know, if you never managed to get,

if you don't manage to get through
life without, you know, the tiniest,

tiniest shortcut or act of dishonesty,
I mean, you could hardly be blamed.

Right.

But shoot, shooting at
it is, is something.

And so.

You know, can you but point, can
you do everything for your kids?

No.

Can you do what's, what's really
needed and what's really important?

Yes, you probably can.

I think the point is, I think we
should wrap it up, but yeah, I

think the point is about God's
will, or let's call it the way Yeah.

Is I can start again right now.

Yes.

Like I can as I leave here tonight.

Yes.

I can drive home.

Yes.

And I can get back and even if I've been
dishonest today, I get to start again.

The way is always there ready for you to
place your feet upon it and me for me.

And I know, yeah.

And I know that I need further surrender.

I need to let go of, more of, I'm
gonna engage a new psychologist and

just try and do some old school CBT
to just try and let go of trying

to control things with my thoughts.

It's insane, Sam.

Well actually maybe things I try
and control with my thoughts, uh.

Things in the future, um, things that are
clearly not in my control and I've done

it my whole adult life, or things that
don't even exist, things that will never

happen, and I'm trying to stop them from
happening by thinking about them and,

you know, like, like boxing with shadows.

Yeah.

So there's so much work to, there's
a lifetime of work still to do, to

clear my fucking head and just come
into the present moment, you know?

Um, not, but I, I get a chance
every moment if that makes sense.

And I'm gonna throw whatever I can at it.

If that's a new psychologist,
I'm gonna throw that at it.

Um, even if it's hard
to afford and whatever.

So I'm always, you know, since I got
sober, I'm, I'm drafting my life and I'm

trying every day to write a better draft.

Does that make sense?

I, I cannot tell you
how much sense it makes.

Yeah.

I feel exactly the same way.

And yeah, it's like, I, I
think I see you doing a more

steady job of it than me, but.

I think the aim and the intention,
the method is much the same.

Um, although in my case, I
don't really have a method

actually, so, or not, not one.

Not one that's as worked out as that.

But it certainly is the same sort of
commitment to like, okay, let's just

try and put our feet on the path again.

And that you've got a moment.

Yeah.

Every moment you can begin again.

Right.

And the Dao is basically like, do
you remember when we were like 20?

No.

Let's see.

I had these slightly younger
friends in law, and I was maybe 25.

They were a few years younger.

And There was this little thing that was
going on for a while of someone would

say, ah, damn, I just lost the game.

Ah, apropos, nothing, nothing's happened.

There's no, there's no co There was
no contest that was taking place.

And they lost the game.

You'd lose the game when
you started thinking.

About losing the game.

Mm-hmm.

So it was just this little trick.

And so sometimes a person might say
it 10 times in a day, like they'll

just on a streak of just losing
the game constantly, basically.

It's like, oh, I got in my head.

Yeah.

I just lost the game.

You've gotta stay positive, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's like you, you're in your head
and you're like, I'm playing the game.

I'm fighting to win.

And it's like, bro, you
lost the game already.

Yeah.

You know, it's like, that's what
the DAOs trying to teach us.

Yeah.

I find it's easy to be spiritual when
things are going my way, but oh boy.

It's easy in adversity.

I very quickly can revert to atheism and
like, or even worse, just cursing God,

you know, I, I don't, I think the act of
cursing God is profound and fundamental.

You, I mean, it's a experience you shared
with every other believer and every

other figure in the Bible who, you know.

Yeah.

It's, I'm a late bloomer 'cause
I had 35 years of pure atheism.

Apart from a few LSD trips, which showed
me things I couldn't quite explain.

Um, yeah, Buddha type revelations.

Oh, connectedness of all things.

Yeah.

Can't do it justice in words, but yeah.

No, it's impossible.

Yeah, it blew my mind.

But yeah, 35 years of atheist
conditioning and 10 years of, of the

spirit of the spiritual adventure.

Yeah.

And I've ended up reading, you
know, stuff that Jesus said

and talking about God's will.

So am I on path to become a Christian?

I don't know.

Yeah.

Well that's the point that the
Dao would also say you don't

like, no, you don't know.

You can't say what the outcome
of your action is gonna be.

You, and you can't control that.

You, I mean, you have to sort of try to
do right thought, right action, all that.

We wait, uh, sometimes no thought, right.

Action.

Right.

But you know, with, particularly with
thing, you know, often with music or.

To really respond to someone
at work meaningfully.

Right.

Take the thought away
and just try to engage.

Yeah.

And you know, other times you
have to stop and be thoughtful

and deliberate and consider your
actions carefully, et cetera.

And so you have to mix up
your approaches constantly.

And, but I would say I see
someone who is actually just quite

steadily, steadily making progress,
whether you realize it or not.

And there's certainly this drive
forward and it's like the, and you

find that the adventure is calling
you somewhere and you go there.

Yeah.

When the adventure calls you, you go, my
spiritual advisor says, I have a thirst.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that's, that's the, um, that's
the metaphor they use in the worries.

What's the, I can't remember the
phrase, but it's like the passion

of the convert or whatever.

Yes.

What's the phrase?

Yes, the, the zeal.

The zeal, yes.

The neo zeal.

Yeah.

I have the zeal of the convert
Uhhuh because I had 35 years of

atheist conditioning, which is
probably still makes up a lot more

of my thinking and actions than
the 10 years of vague spirituality.

But I have this thirst.

Yes, yes.

I have this thirst because I've
experienced things that have

been very profound for me mm-hmm.

With a higher power.

And now I have a thirst to understand
those things and experience more of them.

And I really think it's
probably gonna take up the

rest of what's left of my life.

Well is I'm much more interested
in the spiritual plane

than I am the material now.

Yes.

In a lot of ways.

Yes.

Yes.

And hopefully there's some.

Uh, you know, truth in the, the,
the offer that was made to you.

You know what Joe?

You're gonna continue to live your life
in this way, engaging in these petty acts

of dishonesty, stealing with whatever
moral justification you may have.

Or are you gonna do the thing
that will actually leave, live

better, feel better, that yeah.

Leads to a better life?

And what is exactly that definition
of a better life and what's

being promised within that?

Well, hmm, certainly it's not cash.

Yeah.

Well, and holidays and cars
and, but it's interesting.

It's none of that, I dunno.

I think sometimes, you know, like
there was this old lady that used

to live at the bottom of the hill in
Dean's Marsh and, you know, her son

was a jockey, a champion jockey, and
I think he died young and relatively.

And so she was a kind of a.

You know, one of these old country types
that repeats things, you know, but, but

not in a forgetful, senile sort of way.

No, she was very sharp, but she
wanted, she just, she wanted

to tell you the good news.

She wanted to tell you the
thing she'd worked out.

She, you know, it was her duty
to share it and to share it

again and again, the gospel.

Right.

But she would often say, what's
for you won't go by you and

it'll come, and things like that.

Mm-hmm.

And I, I don't know.

I was 16 and I was like, I think I had
a level of like, I was indulging her

and being patient, but I don't know.

I kind of thought, yeah, I don't know.

There might be something in that.

And I, I've come back to
those thoughts many times.

I'm like, if it's for
you, it won't go by you.

If it's for you, it won't go by you.

Yeah.

And what's the other one?

It'll come.

Yeah.

Okay.

I quite like That's very Dao.

It is very, very da.

It's like, it doesn't say what will come.

Mm.

Doesn't say what's for you.

Yeah.

It's a, it doesn't make promises
of that kind, but that's the point.

Promises and threats,
that's for fools, you know?

And like, uh, I think Richard and
our friends, Richard and Dickey and

Chris would agree that, you know,
threats and promises that's for

children, you know, and for falls.

And in fact, I don't think it's even
the best approach with children, you

know, and that they, they were wrong to
characterize religion as a simple sort

of tales of hell and tales of heaven.

I mean, sure there is that cartoonish
quality to it at times, but the real call,

you see the thing you were talking about
before something opened up and you just,

you had to sort of find out where it went.

It's, there's an old
fashioned term, a calling.

Hmm.

Right.

And so when you have a
calling, it doesn't really.

Yeah, but it's never
called me into a church.

That's the point.

No.

It's called me into your lounge
room to talk about something as

vague and mysterious as the Dao.

Well, I say it's quite a clear thing.

It just doesn't give you obvious answers.

It makes you work 'em out.

Yeah, yeah.

Or it makes you stop looking for them
when it's time to stop looking for

them, et cetera, et cetera, you know?

Which may be such a time now, and I don't
claim to be the final or even the first

authority on it, but I do know that every
time I read it, it just sort of go, Hmm.

Yeah.

You know, and it's like it
throws you back on something.

Yeah.

I loved reading that verse.

I look forward to doing another one.

We'll do a normy one next
time, but We'll then we'll come

back at different times too.

Yeah.

We'll do a normy one, as in
not a Dow verse, and of course

there's dow verses that are more.

Less mysterious and sort
of empty than this one.

This one has a kind of
emptiness friend of the show.

Liv wants us to do re relatable content,
Sam, where we talk about our lives and

our dating and our, you know what, two
people piffling on about ancient texts.

What?

That's not relatable.

Maybe she lacks curiosity.

Oh, well it might be directed
in other, you know what?

I think she would say, well, I'm
more curious about the people.

Yes.

And the, the, the experience
of the person Yes.

Rather than the abstract.

Yeah.

But you know, I don't, but that's the
point when you talk about the Dao,

you end up sharing personal stories.

Well, we did today anyway.

Well, that's what I find.

It always makes people think of something
that's true and important to them.

And I think that might
just be kind of Yeah.

Well, one of the big purposes of it.

Yeah.

I'll finish with this, Sam.

Yeah, though will be done.

They will be done.

Ah.

Amen.

See you mate.