The Ten Thousand Things

Hello and welcome to the 10,000 things.

My name is Sam Ellis.

I'm Joe Loh.

And today some listen to mail.

We love listen to mail.

Sam Super fan Kate.

Yes.

Super fan Kate, who almost
always writes into us.

Yes.

We're gonna address one of her.

Uh mm-hmm.

Little thoughts.

That's right.

Any, any person could dream of having.

The level of support that
Kate's given over the years.

Oh yeah.

You could only dream.

Yeah, that's right.

And all it takes is just
a little bit, you know?

Um, you don't need an army, you
just need someone thoughtful.

Hey, so you mentioned in one of your
recent eps the concept of radical honesty.

And if you are looking for
topic ideas, I would love to

hear you talk more about that.

Alright, let's talk about radical honesty.

I think I've been practicing
this my whole adult life.

I thought it was my concept.

You looked it up briefly before the
show and decided it was some random

guy from America, but I, I, what I
mean by radical honesty is honesty.

Honesty, no matter what, when
it's not comfortable and when it's

not convenient and all of that.

Now, the only problem with it is.

Honesty is just my version
of the truth, right?

Yes.

Like I, I'm not giving
you the objective truth.

No.

So it comes across as being a bit
of an asshole, and I have lost more

friends through radical honesty than
almost anything else, uh, in my life.

But yeah, I wanted you to
have a swing at it, Sam.

Well, I just wanted to let you
go before I jumped in, but.

I think that no one, uh, including
Brad Branton, who has copyrighted

this term, radical honesty.

I, I don't, we had to name check
Brad or we're gonna get sued.

Yeah.

Look, I just wanna say I really
actually am drawn to this person's

story, and it makes a lot of sense for
a person who end up making their lives

work, advocating for radical honesty.

but I don't think it's a.

Uh, necessarily a new concept.

It's more just the way
that it's been worded.

It was probably around back with like
Socrates and Play-Doh and all those.

Absolutely.

No doubt.

There's a, an ancient Greek philosopher
who could, you know, back us up here and,

you know, say that yes, you should tell
the truth even if it costs you something.

perhaps Seneca or something,
you know, could be quoted saying

something along the lines of.

Look, literally, it could
cost you everything and it's

still what you should do.

Mm.

You know, like, uh, there's a
lot of power in the truth, Sam.

There is.

And it can, it can cause a lot of hurt.

And so there's a number of philosophical
problems that, you know, we'll probably

have to deal with in the course of
this, but I'll just go on the record

as saying, I want to live my life
more this way than the other, and.

I can give examples in the past of
saying things that I thought were

important to say, even though I knew
that it would cost me something.

And other times when I said the
truth, thinking that it would

all work out and it didn't.

And other times where I wish I'd
been much, much more truthful

and I have regrets about that.

I remember in my twenties annoying
someone and then saying to them, Hey.

I'm just an ambassador for the truth, man.

Now let's also address, you
know, like, let's address that.

I, I've used the truth as a, as a
defense, as a sword, I would say yes.

Like as I, the truth as I see it is my
sword and I go out and I slay, you know?

Yeah.

And I think that sometimes
the wise warrior needs to,

Not pull out the sword, right?

There's not always a call for
the, for the, you don't need to

go on the offense all the time.

But when it comes to a choice
between biting your tongue and saying

what's on your mind, uh, it's tough.

And I think finding the right way
to say it is pretty important.

And what you said earlier about, Hey,
it's just my version of the truth.

You have to keep that firmly in mind
because the number of times I was

absolutely convinced of something
and then it turned out later that

I, well, I was not fully informed.

Yeah, like when you fully
supported the Iraq war.

Did I, I remember Sam,
don't try and deny it.

You're a NeoCon.

Weapons it's a mess.

Destruction.

You had the t-shirt.

Come on, Sam.

Wait a minute.

Are you getting me mixed
up with someone else?

I'm joking.

Oh yeah, yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, I was like, but look, I'm,
but I'm the kind of guy you can say

that and I will like consider it.

I'll be like, you know what?

It doesn't sound like me, but
I'm gonna take you at your word

and, 'cause I'm on the spectrum,
I'm gonna take people at there.

I think that's the great, one of the
great 20th first century examples of.

People thinking they knew the truth.

Uh, or maybe only a couple of them
actually believed it about Saddam

and weapons of mass destruction.

But it was like the ultimate con I'm,
I'm sorry to, I'm sorry to stick my

head down this rabbit hole and invite
everyone to follow me, but this wasn't

a fantastic example of when the truth
would've benefited everybody enormously.

And the truth of the conflict.

That America began in Iraq was that
it actually began way back in the, in

Iran when the Ayatollah and the Islamic
radicals took over Iran, which at the

time, had had a, a series, well had
it had a political instability for a

long time because, uh, it had been a
puppet regime, more or less for British

American oil, uh, for a long, long time.

And it was not a sustainable situation.

And the, as the Cold War went on,
you know, the Soviet Union had a role

to play in that part of the world.

And more importantly, the, the West's best
idea of how to manage Iran was with, you

know, some sort of fake monarch basically,
that the people did not support.

And then because the CIA
and State Department, and.

You know, British, uh, playbook is
basically like suppress all left

wing opposition within the country
and prop up a, a right wing regime,

best case scenario center right.

You know, with some, some liberal
freedoms for, you know, some people.

but yeah, always ruthlessly suppress
any genuine left wing movements.

And so when push comes to
shove and the sha gets.

Knocked out of power.

There was no left wing
opposition to take his place.

There was not even a centrist,
you know, party really.

There was just, you know, a few
middle class liberals, you know,

doctors and lawyers and stuff,
and religious fundamentalists.

So what happens?

The religious fundamentalists are
the most organized, for whatever

reason, the CAA wasn't keeping
them down to the same degree.

So then they take power.

Then the US goes, oops, a daisy.

That's not what we wanted.

We now don't have a favorable
regime to buy the oil.

So now let's empower this guy in Iraq
called Saddam Hussein to concentrate

power, build up a military, we'll arm
him and train him, and then we will

get him to start a war with the run.

In the 1980s, the Iraq Iran War,
which led to the deaths of millions

of people on both sides, and.

It was a, a horrible tragedy for
both countries and pointless, more

or less the US didn't really achieve.

Its, uh, its aims So, yeah.

So then the, uh, the Islamic regime
remains in place when, arguably

it might've gone down sooner.

Then, uh, Saddam's empowered,
so he goes and invades Q eight

US has to respond to that.

And then nine 11, they take their
chance to fight a war on two

fronts, which was all part of the
project for a new American century.

That's a whole nother story,
but that was based on.

You know, two lies that Saddam
was a bad guy that just came outta

nowhere and we absolutely did not
create, and now we have to end him.

And the other lie, which was he
was planning to use weapons of mass

destruction against, you know, whoever.

And the great line from back then
was, this is a fair rabbit hole

when I just wanted to make a joke.

But, um, um, the gray line from
back then was when George tenant

director of the CAA said to George
Bush that it was a slam dunk.

That they had weapons of mass
destruction, that Saddam had

weapons of mass destruction.

A slam dunk There is.

See, that's radical honesty.

Did did he believe that?

I think he maybe believed that.

You know, like that's.

That's complete.

A slam dunk is complete certainty.

Yeah.

And I, and I, when I was younger, had a
lot more slam dunks than I do at 45 now.

I'm not so sure there's a lot more
layups and three point shots than,

yeah, and there's a, and there's
a lot more just room for humility

and uncertainty generally, and to
admit the limits of our knowledge.

And I find myself saying things and
then saying even in texts and whatever,

and then saying, but I could be wrong,
of course, but I never used to say.

But I could be wrong also.

Yeah, that's right.

Also, my understanding is.

That, uh, you know, if you actually wanted
to run an intelligence agency properly,

you don't offer assessments like that.

You say, here's the available evidence,
here's how we feel about this source,

here's how we feel about that source.

And you know, we put like a 70%.

You know, confidence on this, you, you,
you meant to express relative confidence.

They, they worked out what outcome they
wanted, then they, then they created

the, went backwards from there, worked
backwards with the truth from there.

It's a good example of the big lie.

There's, and then obviously the big
lie has become, you know, like the

operating system of someone like
Donald Trump for a good over a decade.

Well, and he's obviously the biggest
liar around, but what empowered him?

Partly it was this lack of honesty
from key American institutions and

C-N-N-N-B-C, Fox News, who all and New
York Times, who all queued up behind

the, uh, the, you know, president
and the White House to, uh, and the

State Department and the Pentagon
and all the rest of them to say Yep.

The intelligence checks
out, we're satisfied.

Oh, so you're drawing a link
from Iraq War to To Donald Trump.

So C-N-N-N-B-C, Fox News, New York
Times, all the rest, Washington Post

get caught with their pants down.

So that's where fake news comes from.

That's where fake news comes from.

So you've got all these veterans
coming home from the, from the very

beginning, that first wave of veterans
to come back from Iraq were like.

Something's up.

We weren't told the truth.

And remember that conflict
then goes on for another.

That occupation then goes
on for another 10, 15 years.

Then you had the disaster in
Syria still unfolding and the.

Veterans were, came back, not
just poisoned by the environment

and traumatized and all that, all
the usual stuff, but radicalized

by this feeling of betrayal.

But why do they want someone
who's gonna lie more?

Wouldn't you want someone who's
gonna bring some radical honesty?

Oh, well, yes, but the one semit
truth he told was fake news.

Right, so he could credibly claim that
all these outlets were lying to the

American people because yeah, they were
caught red-handed doing, doing just that.

But then, but then they got, so then
the American people got the biggest

liar they've ever had as president.

Correct.

So you then voted him out, then
had four years to reflect on it.

And then voted him back in.

Yes.

So this is a very considered decision by
the American people at this point that

they want the biggest possible liar.

Yeah.

I, I dunno if it's a, I dunno if you'd
call it a considered decision based on

all the available evidence and certainly.

People willing to overlook things.

Let's say people that were committed to
voting a certain way, were willing to

kind of hold their noses or turn their,
yeah, look, I don't want to get my point.

I don't want this to be a podcast
where we talk about Donald Trump

because it's not our strong suit and
I don't think we should do much of it.

But it is a point not at the opposite
end of the spectrum to radical honesty.

Exactly.

I would is someone who lies all the time.

Correct.

Correct.

But I, and also, and also.

Crucially psychologically
feels zero shame about it.

None.

Like, so you cannot shame this person.

No.

Like have you ever thought about
if Watergate happened under

Trump, there's no way he'd lose
the presidency, shrug it off.

He just shrug it off.

Absolutely.

And it's interesting that you know that it
was possible back then to shame someone.

Yeah.

And I dunno whether Nixon
necessarily felt shame personally.

I certainly think he felt
fear of being discovered.

Yeah.

But he didn't, I don't
think he felt moral shame.

But it is remarkable.

That they didn't even have to begin
impeachment and he just steps down.

Yeah.

'cause he'd lost all of
his credibility instantly.

Yeah.

And you know, and then Raga with the.

Uh, my head tells me that, uh,
you know, I was misled, but my

heart tells me that it was true.

You know?

Yeah.

And so, raga kind of invents the
truthiness doctrine, which then

goes on to become a key feature
of, uh, presidential politics.

That if the vibe tells me it's
this, then the facts are just

gonna have to fall into line.

And so there's been a
lack of honesty from.

The entire establishment, I would
say, and well, Sam, to pull it back

to what's our strong suit, which
is our own experience of life.

Can you Well, well, what I'm
pointing to is a bunch of people.

You know, in the, in the press and in
the political class who have been telling

half truths, absolute lies or, or even
90% truths, but done with, with spin

and the, it has led step by step to
exactly the situation they're in now.

Look at all the harm.

That this semi honesty and dishonesty
is causing, and the only cure

for it arguably was the truth.

So I agree entirely with your, yeah.

Do you feel like you've, you mostly
been a truthful person in your life?

No.

So I'm, uh, that's, or are you diplomatic
to the point of not telling the truth

to keep yourself outta trouble or, yeah.

Well, so this is where I really wanted to
go with it, to the morally problematic.

Murky thing about, you know, I think the
first problem is declaring Declaring what?

Declaring your viewpoint
with absolute confidence as

though it is absolute reality.

Right.

So that's, that's, yeah.

Well that was me up
until about 10 years ago.

Yeah.

And I think I'm much more circumspect now.

but people who know me well could
tell you, but we've heard Sam

declare all sorts of things with like
enormous confidence, and that's true.

But I do, if you, you know, if you
listen to my words carefully, um, there's

usually some conditions being placed
on statements, you know, somewhere.

I try to formulate things carefully
and I tried to be honest about

my level of confidence in the
information that I have and.

I've read the Wikipedia article on
cognitive biases a bunch of times

now, and I try to remain conscious
of those, and it's a long list of

stuff, so it's hard to keep so you
don't go out of your way to lie.

I can't remember the last time.

Yeah, it's been a while.

So, but do you like, so
that's after years of therapy.

See, this is what, that it's gotten
easier to be truthful what happens,

but it's taken a long, long time.

What happened to me to
introduce some other concepts?

Mm.

Is.

in my addiction recovery circles,
they talk about rigorous honesty.

Rigorous honesty.

I like this idea.

So rigorous.

Honesty is basically being
honest all the time, even when

it's not to your advantage.

And that made me stop stealing
from Woolworths and made

me stop stealing full stop.

It made me stop telling little white lies.

It made me like I recently just,
you know, told the truth to Vic

Rhodes and lost my truck license
'cause I've got bipolar disorder.

Yeah.

So that kind of stuff where I
knew it wasn't to my advantage,

but the question was, do you have
a preexisting medical condition?

I told the truth and it cost me.

Now that's rigorous honesty, but when I
did, uh, my step work with the sponsor,

he, he came back and said, your problem.

Is not lying.

You don't lie.

But your problem is brutal honesty,
which is another form of honesty

where you hurt people with honesty.

Yeah.

And I think I've used, that's
what I mean, using it as a sword.

I think I used brutal honesty.

Mm-hmm.

To hurt people, so I
had to stop doing that.

Yes.

As part of my addiction recovery,
I had to become a kinder person.

Yeah.

And that means more diplomacy, less just
bluntly telling people what you think.

Agree.

Yeah.

And so, so in order, in order to
practice honesty properly, you

can't do it for the first principle.

You can't do it only
when it suits you, right?

And you can't do it in the
manner that suits you the best.

And part of the honesty is to admit the
limits of your knowledge and to admit

the limits of your certainty, but also to
be as careful with yourself as possible.

And as like.

Rigorously self honest as you can and
try to, and this is something that

I've had to work extremely hard on.

Think hard about what, okay, am I
actually doing anyone a favor if

I express this now in this manner?

And am I doing it purely in service to
the highest principle or what's my agenda?

Right?

So start with the assumption.

You may have an unconscious motive.

For deciding to tell the truth in the
moment that you do and you kind of gotta

think hard about what that motive might
be and would, is it a motive I would

actually be proud of and would stand by?

Yeah.

I think one of your weaknesses,
Sam, is that you have, you do

have a pretty big ego about Yes.

Knowing everything.

Yes.

And you will do incredible amounts of
research about some topic in the news

and then become a subject matter expert.

And then it's like, you know, everything.

Yeah.

Um, and that's, you know, like we
all have our weaknesses and I think

that's one of yours is that you're not
prone to say a simple, I don't know.

Yeah.

And you always will have an answer.

Do you know what?

I've done it more often
though, and recently.

I don't know man.

I think I.

Came to the decision in therapy?

Uh, I don't know.

Yeah.

Four or five years ago I was
like, okay, I need to start

saying, I don't know, more often.

And, and not, and not because, uh, yeah,
not in, not even for a moral reason so

much as just set, set this burden down.

Like you don't need to
understand everything and.

I don't need to pursue every
single curiosity that comes up and

I don't need to have an answer.

And even though on a lot of topics,
there will be something available to me

that I've stored away and, hey, look,
here's something that came out of the

fact file when that this topic came up.

But here's the problem.

It's, it's Where's me out?

Right?

And why?

Would I want to do this?

So I thought it was just a, I
thought it was just a simple

matter of ego and vanity.

Right?

That's definitely in there, but also I.

I kind of got a little bit
of people pleasing going on.

I was about to say, you're
trying to be helpful.

I think I'm trying to
be helpful too often.

Like you are very, yeah.

I find you're a good person to talk to
about stuff in the news because you have

a, a very complex understanding of it.

So you talk to me in a very reasoned
way and you're trying to be helpful

and I'm not having to dig at you.

No.

It's just at some point in your life, you
became one of these people who thinks they

could possibly kind of know everything.

Yeah, that's true.

But, but also that I had a, that
I had a desire to like assist

that I wanted to be of service.

Right?

Yeah.

So I, so I discovered like after
being fairly selfish in my twenties

and, uh, early thirties, that I
thought, okay, I'm having kids.

I'm gonna, I'm becoming a teacher.

Like.

Okay.

Suddenly.

The vocation is service
rather than service.

But maybe you would be quite a
good like ministerial advisor.

Yeah, probably like if they made you,
if, if you were working for the minister

for something and you had to become the
expert on what they were the minister for.

Totally.

I think my dream job would be I don't
actually have to make the decision.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think I'm much more interested
in what goes into the decision

than actually making the decision.

I don't have that much interest in
power, but I do have an interest.

In how things work.

And so just to give you a more mundane
example, if a friend calls up and they're

like, ah, fuck, I'm trying to figure out
how to solve this little sort of practical

problem or whatever, my first instinct
is to try and jump in and workshop it and

like come up with ideas and all of that.

But it's also acceptable, and I've
done this a few times with computer

problems and people have asked me
and I'm like, I'm actually not.

I'm not the level of boffin I once was,
I'm just gonna say don't know on this one.

And it came as such a relief
the first few times I did it.

And then I started doing it more
often in the classroom and just

saying, I don't know, or I'm not sure.

Yeah.

What a good question.

That does sound like people pleasing
now you're putting it like that.

Yeah.

And you know like, oh, you
wanna talk about X, Y, or Z.

Great.

I also want to talk about that.

So like.

I, when people have a passion or a, you
know, curiosity about something, I'm drawn

to that, but also I want to validate their
interests and so what lies beneath that?

Right?

I think this is, this is a handy skillset
when it comes to talking to strangers.

Well, sometimes it is, and meeting
new people and it can be good for.

You know, I can play a good role in
teams sometimes build a little morale.

And so often, uh, I can be a
good sounding board sometimes,

but what lies beneath all this?

You know, and it's like when I, I got
in touch with, uh, this more recently,

which is when I was a kid, I was good at.

cultivating the attention of adults.

Alright?

And one of the ways you do that is to,
you know, try and seem like a good kid.

Um, and you know, I learned that.

Adults seem to like smart
kids and they seem to like,

there were parts of it I, you know, that
were, didn't, didn't suit me as much like,

oh, adults like it when I'm responsible
and lead the other children in the right

sort of way, which I didn't always do.

Um, in fact, I got him
into mischief a lot.

I was actually quite a troublemaker
and I, nonetheless, I had a

strength, which was to cultivate.

You know?

Yeah.

The tension and the interest and the,
the patronage of adults because in the

boarding school environment, you kind
of had to try and attract and, you

know, find the sources of nurturing and
whether it was, you know, friendships

with other students or, you know,
figuring out which adults, you know,

uh, you could depend on for whatever.

And.

My parents were attentive when I was
at home, but I wasn't always there.

and then this led to an
unexamined kind of habit that

got, you know, got outta control.

And then when I had kids, uh, it
took ages to kind of work through all

the issues that that, that came up.

When you've got, when you're looking
at a 5-year-old and going, oh yeah.

I was just a little bit older than you
when I went off to boarding school.

So intense feelings of, uh, of deprivation
and of being let down by the care, by

the key caregivers and that they were.

Their care was often there and
was usually good when it was

there, but was inconsistent.

I couldn't just access it when and where I
wanted to, so I didn't feel I had control,

uh, or a reliable source of care in life.

So right, right into my adulthood became.

Good at attractor men, attracting
mentors and caregivers.

But unfortunately this leads to
problems in relationships because

romantic relationships, because you're
gonna be expecting too much of people.

And it also meant that I was
untruthful a lot of the time.

Is there, yeah.

Is there examples of re
uh, radical honesty in your

romantic relationship history?

Like either receiving or giving Oh, yeah.

Some hard truths.

Can you think of any off
the top of your head?

Absolutely.

Every single, every single partner
I ever had, I think gave me fairly

balanced and kind assessments,
which were None of your A DHD?

Yep, yep.

Or my occasional stunning selfishness.

Right.

But also I remember you mentioned
on the previous episodes of.

A, a partner saying to you, there
is something fucking wrong with you.

Yes.

Go and do something about it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's pretty, that's radical.

You know what?

That's radical honesty.

That's a perfect example of what I mean.

I don't know about Brad, the
American guy, but what I mean is.

There is something fucking wrong with you.

Go and do something about
it is radical honesty to me.

It really is.

And I think it's more radical
honesty than rigorous honesty

is a bit more soft spoken.

Sure.

Radical is in your face, you know?

That's right.

And so there were some times when I
thought I did the thing that you, you

know, you are taking the piss outta
yourself earlier with like, uh, hey

bro, I'm just an ambassador for the
truth or for reality or whatever.

I did a lot of that too.

And so.

I'll be the, so I just wanna
say this, I just wanna be real

straightforward with this.

I used the truth strategically for
a long time and I used, but I'm only

telling the truth as a defense, um,
when I probably should have admitted.

Oh, I don't know why I decided
to say that if I'm honest.

I feel like maybe my
motives weren't good, right?

And I was good at withholding it
and denying, defending, delaying

obfuscating any sort of attempts.

By well-meaning people
to hold me accountable.

I'm just like, no.

Took me years to realize, oh, I found it
almost impossible for years just to go.

Yeah, you're right.

And I'm sorry when presented with
the evidence of, of, you know, me

hurting other people's feelings.

Yeah.

It's hard to find that, to accept
that you've done the wrong thing.

Isn't it so hard?

Because I believed, well, I couldn't
understand for the longest time, People

who were just, that I observed, including
partners and friends who were like, just

capable of going, oh yeah, fair enough.

You know, good call.

Yeah.

Fair cop.

And I just, I, I really
wanted to be able to do that.

And I respected that in people, but
it took years of therapy to, to learn

why I had a real big problem with
doing it, which is that I believed.

The exact wrong thing that if I admit
that this is true and that I did hurt

your feelings, whether I meant to or
not, and that it was not the right

thing to do, and that I actually
care more about you and your feelings

than I do about being right, right?

I thought, no, no, no, no, no.

If I admit doing the wrong thing.

I could not be loved if my, Ooh,
that, if my shame was revealed.

That's good.

That's a very therapy
thing to realize, isn't it?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Basically, I have to be
perfect in order to be loved.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I think I can relate to that a
bit, which means you have to put on a

front all the time, and it's very tiring
and it makes people feel insane because.

It's like, what?

But you, no, I'm not saying you're
the worst person in the world,

but just that thing you did.

I found it inconsiderate.

It hurt my feelings.

It's interesting you talk about
extreme, extreme selfishness.

'cause I, I almost get, 'cause
I'm offering you an out by saying

you've got pretty extreme A
DHD or, or DHD Oh, of course.

But I, I don't, I don't want, but
that's no excuse for selfishness.

No, you can be a very
unselfish A DHD person.

Well, that's right.

And I also had every single
one of those partners.

Also say, which is why
I had, I knew I could.

I knew in my heart of hearts
that I had to take their words

seriously and on on face value.

All of them also said, you are capable
of such kindness and generosity, and it's

so clear that you do have a good heart
underneath it all, which is why it's

so puzzling that these things happen.

All of them said, look, there's
gotta be good reasons, but there's,

you know, there's stuff you've gotta
work through here because you are a

good person at the end of the day.

But there's just a lot of
stuff that's in the way.

And, one of the things that really
helped to unlock it and get things

moving forward was just being
able to go, oh, no, no, no, no.

My parents made mistakes and I
still have good thoughts about them.

Um.

I've made mistakes as a parent,
but my kids still love me.

Mm-hmm.

So it's okay for me to make mistakes.

Yeah.

It's okay for me to be grumpy
sometimes, but do you know what?

I also don't want to disavow the effect
of anything I've done on other people

because I know how much that hurts.

I've been on the receiving end of
it too, and the absolute hypocrisy.

that I lived in for a number of
years of like, it's not fair.

You know, my feelings
aren't getting acknowledged.

And it's like, well, but were
you acknowledging the feelings of

others as rigorously as you could?

You know?

So now, now where I'm at is I
cannot re, I do not deny the

harms I've caused in the past.

I wonder if I'm.

As capable of being honest about
them, the ones in the present.

I, I, I think so.

and I no longer fear being
rejected by friends, family, et

cetera, for admitting the truth.

I actually feel now that I've
done it a bunch of times.

I sent my dad a text the other
day, saying I just remembered.

This time that I was just like, really
rude to you and you didn't deserve it.

And I, I was misinterpreting your
actions and I was seeing everything

through like a frame of suspicion and
resentment and I couldn't just see the

simple kindness in what you were doing.

And, you know, I threw it in your
face and like, I'm really sorry

and I just want you to know that.

That was something I didn't understand.

At the time, I didn't
know what I was doing.

I didn't know why I was doing it.

I didn't know how to stop, and now I do.

Now I've learned that trauma
has all these effects.

It can distort your perception of reality.

And I mean, yeah, you're a good
advertisement for a few thorough years.

Thorough therapy.

Mm-hmm.

Only because you're
changing your behavior.

It's worked.

Like if you are, if you are sending a text
to your dad, that's a very healing Yeah.

Kind words after all these years and
everything you've been through together.

Yeah.

Like, you know, that's really, I
mean, my dad died over 20 years ago.

I wish I could, there's so many things.

Conversation.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So many things I could have said.

Yeah.

some of which have occurred to you
since then, and some of which you

were probably aware of at the time.

But in terms of partners hitting me with
some radical honesty, I, I'm, I don't

have a great long term memory, but.

I remember it was only within
the last couple of years.

I had one woman I was dating briefly
and it wasn't probably gonna work out

like she was like a hardcore Marxist
and Oh yeah, I think I remember.

And it, it had all these reasons why
there was a lot of power dynamics going

on, but in this power dynamic, it's
at one point she said, she looked at

me and she said, you know, you've got
this big frame of a body and you could

be an Adonis, but you've got this.

Dad bod.

Oh man, I remember.

And I'm just not
attracted to your dad bod.

Oh my.

And then that, that was radical honesty.

Shit.

That's brutal honesty.

But it fucked you up though.

Yeah, I, I went on a keto
diet and lost nine kilos.

Oh.

Which is, and it, but it
fucked me up psychologically.

Yeah.

Like, and emotionally it
stayed with me for a long time.

Well, I know that because you
brought it up a bunch of times.

Yeah.

And I could tell it was bothered.

Well, I do have a dad bod Sam.

Yeah.

It's just that some women don't care.

Some don't.

And I don't care.

Mm.

It's just this woman had
a cruel streak, but like.

So many women would've thought
that, but never said it.

It's true.

So who's the right,
who's in the right here?

So the radical honesty, if, if it
was working, she would've said it.

I would've gone on the keto diet.

I would've started going to
the gym five days a week.

And within a few years, I
would no longer have a dad bod.

I'd have this Adonis bod that she
was recommending for me, and maybe

me and her would stay together and
I'd become a committed Marxist.

And, you know.

I'd be down Collins Street on the Gaza
rally as we speak instead of sitting here.

Wow.

So all of that could have happened,
but instead I just did keto for

a few months, lost a few kilos,
and then decided, you know what?

I can live with my dad bod.

I'm a dad.

I earned it the dad way.

You know?

So, but that was radical honesty.

Oh, no, no.

Sorry.

If we're looking at radical,
rigorous, and brutal, that was brutal.

Yes.

So what is there?

Okay.

Look here.

Well.

Uh, this is tough because I, I don't
have a problem with the fact that

that hurt your feelings right now.

I can also say you are doing your best
to try to be committed to this idea and

saying, well, maybe she did do me a favor.

Maybe there, it was worth saying,
but like, bottom line, was that

the right thing to do or not?

Well, the, the, the weird part was
mysteriously about a month later after we

broke up, we broke up not long after that.

Sure.

No more contact.

Yeah.

some graffiti appeared near my house
that said, I like your man boobs.

Oh, yes.

And I got a photo with this
graffiti 'cause I'm like, I'll

never know if it was her or not,
but it was this weird coincidence

if it wasn't her or back to signs.

Right.

Well, I'm pretty sure, I think she's
capable of being someone who would feel

guilty for making me feel like shit,
but not want to have any actual contact

because that just opens up the door.

Well, and, and, and knew your movement.

But the, and she knew Well, it's
like right on my drive home.

No, it's, it's remarkable.

But in any case, I think she might well
have had some moment to of reflection

about that since then, because I, like
I said, there are, there are there, I

think there are far more lies or failures
to tell the truth when it was needed.

I don't just mean not necessarily just.

An overt lie by commission, but the
number of omissions that I really,

really regret, and I don't just mean,
useful information or, you know,

information that might've made me look
bad, but could've helped a situation.

I also mean nice things
that I wanted to say, but.

Hesitated.

Like I've, I've often struggled
to also be honest about my

positive feelings towards people.

Mm-hmm.

And or honest about my desires, Joe.

So when we talk about radical honesty,
we're not just talking about how we,

our honesty towards others as we, and
honesty about how we see them, and

honesty about, you know, how we see
their actions or an honesty about how we.

View their body because
sometimes people ask for that.

but, but also just honesty about how one
feels oneself and the desires you have and

the things that, all the many things that
go unexpressed that aren't bad at all.

Yeah.

In a weird way, I felt quite seen
by her because from, for about 30

years, from the age of about 15,
I hadn't been okay with my body.

And I don't know, you can relate
to this Sam, in a different way.

Yeah.

Big time.

Um, but I hadn't.

I'd always thought, I've got a shit
body or a bad body, or my body is wrong.

When did you, but it actually took me
to my forties for someone to actually

just say it to me, and you know what?

Your body is wrong.

And I'm like, yes.

I always knew that is it, is it exactly.

Is the white lie sometimes
more harm than good?

Right.

And certainly Brad Banton would agree so.

I've had a lot of people,
well-intentioned people tell me that

they'd like my body, and I think they
might even mean it, but I failed.

I just could not trust people saying that.

I couldn't put my trust in their words.

And what did you see as
the problem with your body?

Oh, too tall, too gangly.

Too thin?

Yeah, too uncoordinated.

Uh, you know, I didn't
like my face either.

lots of things, but, you know,
it wasn't the right skin color.

I always wanted to be browner.

Yeah.

Um, but the, the, the weight
one was a real issue for you.

Yeah.

Like a eating disorder type thing?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I felt painfully.

Self-conscious about
having spaghetti legs.

Now I kind of just wear it with pride
and it doesn't bother me, but like that

was a long, painful journey and aware
of having, you know, visible ribs.

Anders, I think men don't talk
about this stuff that much.

Yeah, yeah.

Like women are expected to talk
about and think about this stuff.

Oh, if anything, whereas men are thinking
and talking about, they're thinking

about it, but never talking about it.

Too much expectation maybe
on women to talk about it.

Like Yeah, maybe normalize
talking about it less.

I don't know.

I've I've heard people say that.

Yeah.

Maybe normalize just giving less of a
shit overall, like about women's bodies.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's right.

And like everyone just having less
opinions generally in including the

so-called helpful opinions, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And, but when it comes to men, it's like.

We could probably be talking about
this a lot more, and I first noticed

it maybe about 11 or 12 and I had
like braces and acne and I just,

obviously that was shit house and
I felt horrible about myself, but.

The real like horror moment of like
Earth open up and swallow me now.

Like Satan take me, I'm ready.

Uh, was uh, standing on the diving blocks
at like the year seven swimming sports.

So like I'm at a new school.

I'm having like one of the worst
school years of my, no, pretty much

the worst school year of my life and.

Miserable and the butt of
everyone, like just the bottom

of that pyramid in the class.

And I'm standing there on the swimming
blocks in my board shorts and I just

all of a sudden just, I wanna cover
up, I want to be somewhere else.

I don't, and I do not, I just all
of a sudden avoided wearing shorts

for like the next five years.

I'm like walking around in
summer in pants and shit.

Oh really?

'cause of your skinny legs?

Yeah.

And, and upper body, just like.

Like avoided bare chested
ness like at all times.

Even in like changing
rooms and stuff like that.

See, I, and meanwhile I was wishing
I could be more scrawny and flat

chested and of course, you know, yeah.

Like that's, yeah, it
gives it, but see, yeah.

I don't know.

It's look, and, and I had to cr I had
to create an interesting personality

'cause I was never gonna have the Adonis.

Yeah.

But a weird, in my mid forties to be.

To have someone demand that
I create an ADONs body.

She literally said, you could
be an adon and you know.

Yeah.

Like I get it.

I've always had big shoulders
and all that, but yeah, exactly.

Let me ask this question, right.

Did part of you enjoy, or I don't
know, derive some satisfaction or

whatever from having someone express.

To for this thing that's
haunted your imagination, right?

Yeah.

This is what others are thinking.

Yes.

Quite a delicious, kind of like brutal.

Yeah.

Yes.

Finally, the shame is confirmed.

That's right.

That's right.

Yes, that's right.

I'm not imagining it and I
think there was an edge to that

relationship of this power game.

Mm-hmm.

Almost kink kind of thing.

Oh look, it can be a turn on for sure.

Yeah.

And but.

It was just too much of a direct hit.

I think as much as I've, I've,
I acknowledged it and felt like,

yeah, that's always been the truth.

The other thing is if you, if you're
gonna go the direct hits, like in many

ways it's a more ethical thing to do.

If everybody's, you know, having
a swing, like if it's a sort of

mutual, there's a little bit of a,
yeah, I'm trying to speak going on.

I don't think I ever attacked
that person's appearance,

but I certainly attacked her
belief system quite vigorously.

Well, there you go.

So maybe she felt that the two
of you had a sufficient, uh, uh,

robustness that this was worth doing.

But what I'm gonna say is, I think sooner
you feared hearing this for so many years.

So, you know what?

I'm on the other side of
it now and I'm still okay.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So she'd done you a favor finally.

The thing you feared.

Great.

Yeah, let's, let's have that experience.

Let's survive it.

I think there's an awful lot.

Yeah.

There's an awful lot to be said
for facing your fears and even

if it is gonna hurt and it did.

It fucking hurt.

Yeah, it really hurt.

Yeah.

It sat with you for months.

Yeah, it did.

And it really knocked the wind out.

Right.

So like that's true.

But at the same time now.

You're not gonna live in the
shadow of that in the same way.

But I also learned another lesson, which
is, it might be kinky and exciting,

but maybe don't date cruel women.

Yeah.

Or I'm gonna, this is where
I wanna bring in Banton.

Right?

So the guy who published a book in a
radical honesty and ran workshops and has

built a whole movement around it, right?

That his childhood experience,
you know, 10 years old, he's

got an alcoholic father.

He goes through all this brutal stuff
and he decides, you know, in the

way a child does, I want to help.

The vulnerable, and I want
to kill the mean people.

Right?

And then eventually he realizes, you
can't kill the mean people and protect

the vulnerable at the same time.

It's like you've kind of gotta
protect the vulnerable, the

put, put your energy there.

But then he goes into psychotherapy
and then he realizes, oh, the mean

people are the helpless people.

That's why they're mean.

And.

So he has that conviction that like,
hurt people, hurt people, right?

Mm-hmm.

So I need to help these
people that hurt people.

And then after, you know, struggling in
his psychotherapeutic practice eventually

comes to the, the conclusion that.

The people he was treating were lying
to themselves and to others now.

And I think this is something that
every therapist could probably, uh,

you know, resonate with to a degree.

Because Adam's looked me in the face
tons of times and said, yeah, come on.

Like, that's less than
the truth, isn't it?

Mm.

And why don't, you know what is the truth?

Yeah.

You can tell me in here.

Yeah.

I've been very honest with my therapist.

Yeah.

And I've been much, it's, yeah, like
I said, it's taken 10 years, but it,

it's, the honesty has, it was always
there, but how often was it there?

Right.

And how often did I try
to get away from it?

So I still try to evade it, but I
am much better at going at it sooner

and going at it more thoroughly.

And I don't now, I kind of feel
so much safer just admitting.

Yeah, admit the things that I regret about
myself and regretting, uh, the things

I, the actions I regret and et cetera.

I'm much happier doing that and I've
discovered so much, like a greater

level of peace from just saying, yeah,
there's so much that I'm not proud

of and I'm really sorry, and that I
wanna spend the rest of my life doing a

much better job of that, um, including
the, including the honesty of saying.

Saying the good things
not holding back on.

Yeah, it sounds like that
with your text to your dad.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's right.

I just like, he deserves this.

Yeah.

And I deserve this, like, I'm
doing everybody a favor here.

I think, although I did read an article
about, some, some bloody columnist,

whatever, having an issue with people
going on apology binges after having

a moment of self-awareness and like.

Contacting people from
years ago and saying, sorry.

Oh, that sounds like doing amends in, yes.

In addiction recovery.

That's right.

I did that twice and I think it's
a really worthwhile thing to do.

I've got, yeah, but it is, if you
do it in a conscious That's right.

Systematic way.

That's right.

And careful not to open wound.

And also an amends is different
to an apology because you're

actually going to fix the problem.

That's right.

You don't.

Just have to say, sorry.

No, that's not enough.

And, and there is a kind of
selfishness to a lot of apologies.

It's like, okay, I've done my bit.

Now let me off the hook,
clear my conscience for me.

So it's like, and amends can be
like that, but that means they're

not really being done properly.

No, because the amends has to be offered.

What I've learned, and I'm be interested
to know your thoughts, the amends has to

be offered with like a full awareness.

Of, uh, the fact that the other person
does not owe you Yeah, an outcome.

I've done a couple of brutal amends to
the mother of my children where I was not

given much, uh, positive reinforcement
in, in return, but I said what I had

written down what I needed to say.

I said what I needed to say.

And you know, then in addiction
recovery there's a living amends.

And my living amends is to never pick
up a drink of alcohol one day at a time.

That's a duty you have to
yourself and to others.

Yeah, and my kids.

Yes.

Yes.

That's right.

And to the people I hurt when
I drank, and the number one

being the mother of my children.

Yes.

You know?

That's right.

And so I think the place where the
honesty has to start is with yourself.

And that, that it's, it.

If you Yeah.

Radical honesty towards ourselves.

It's the number one duty.

Uh, because if you, as this Bratton guy's
pointing out, his therapists, uh, sorry.

His therapeutic patients who are,
you know, causing harm to others

and themselves, they are lying to
themselves and to others about that.

Mm-hmm.

And how are they gonna make any progress
until they've stopped doing that?

But I'll, I'll, I'll be, I'll be honest.

Every single improvement I've made in
my life and every single breakthrough,

right, every single victory over,
you know, despair and addiction

and all this, every single bit of
progress I've made has come with a

big dose of guilt and regret because.

It was easier in some ways to sit there
thinking nothing will ever get better and

I'm just epically diseased and that's it.

But, but the second I was able to improve
and make progress, it immediately came

with this regret of like, well, if I
could do this, why didn't I do it sooner?

Mm-hmm.

And when you finally admit the
problem, and there's a whole series

of 'em that have to be admitted,
one after the other, you also.

Then become more and painfully aware of
the effect that this has had on others.

And that's part of it.

And then you're like the, the grief of
the lost good years that you could have

had if you'd just lived more truthfully
and you know, more compassionately

towards yourself and towards others.

And it's just a brutal thing.

Unfortunately, some people in their
heart of hearts, they know that if.

They just cannot let that truth in that
they just feel they cannot, they would

not be able to live with themselves.

And so they remain in a place
of just constantly justifying

the harms they've caused.

Mm.

And I've done that in the past, but, you
know, I just don't want to do it anymore.

And if I become aware of it, I, I
immediately want to take action and.

Others have played a very important
role in being honest with me and

getting me to have the awareness
in the first place, you know?

Hmm.

All right, Sam.

Well I think that's a
good place to leave it.

It's been a good chat.

Have you got any final thoughts?

I won't do the one more
thing for a change.

think we've given it
a thorough going over.

I mean, I would reflect that may, I'm
glad I've gone public about having a

dad bod That's very, very cathartic.

I kind of, I, I do still
feel mad at that person.

Um, she was a cruel person
and I don't say that lightly.

I don't think I've met super
cruel people in my life.

Many of them.

No, I don't think I've heard
you describe anyone else.

Yeah, no.

She had a cruel streak.

But it was kind of hot.

Right?

But I've gotta not stop playing with fire.

You know?

I will get they, they say that
you like the bad girls, honey.

Is that true?

Uh, well now you do.

Uh, yeah.

Look, I, and I was trying to remember
if I've said anything that like really

hurt, like a girlfriend's feelings
like that, and, and nothing's come

to mind, but I know that I have.

Yeah, it's hard to do.

I'm to, I try not to put you on the spot
for specific examples 'cause I think

that's really hard in a podcast, but, but
I definitely think that I, I probably got

faced with the classic nineties question
of like, does my bum look big in this?

And I think.

I think the, the, the, the honesty that
hurt was like, no, and I don't care.

And why are you being such a cliche?

Yeah.

Asking me this question.

Yeah.

Like.

Y you just, you just need to be
okay with just whatever it is.

Like I can't change this reality for
you, like, you like that owe the irony

of this because the number of, because
I was re, I reached out to people in the

same way for reassurance, constantly.

Absolute reassurance, junkie.

And then so to turn around and say
to someone else, get outta here

with your reassurance fishing.

Yeah.

It's like, it's pretty rich, you know?

So I do kind of regret that.

Um, and I think.

There were times when, we've talked
about this before, times when, uh,

you, you, you caught your partner in
the wrong angle, the wrong light or

whatever, and you know, it, it hit
the wrong way and then, you know,

in inability to kind of disguise that,
you know, and so that's a kind of honesty

that can really hurt because Sure.

What can people do about their appearance?

I mean, there's a certain amount, but.

I don't know.

It's a tough one, but I think what
really helps with, uh, with just on the

appearance side of things, I dunno why
I'm caring about that example so much.

I think I just like you, I think I just
really wanted someone just to say what I

was thinking and go Yeah, you know what,
you are an you're too scrawny, you are

a weird scrawny dude and I bean pole.

Yeah.

And I dunno.

And I think just people
were trying to be too kind.

And I just wanted people
to say, yeah, it's true.

You know, it was all a
bit of an illusion, Sam.

'cause you're very tall and if one
thing I learned from Ali who used

to be on this show is that women
lose their mind for tall guys.

I don't, yeah.

And you know, you've
probably done all right.

There's so many.

Yeah, I know.

But I think, but I think at the end
of, you've probably done all right

through sheer height and just Yeah,
volume of words and just one or two good

qualities in a person mixed in with a
whole bunch of absolute bullshit, but

like just annoyance and mark apart from
anything else, just being a very annoying

person over the years, but like I.

I honestly did not believe God.

I remember actually, Kas
said this very early on.

She goes, no, just by the way, you think
you are not one of the pretty ones.

You, you are.

Yeah.

And I'm like, no, I'm not.

And she's like, no, no, no, no.

Look at this friend.

Look at that friend.

Look at that friend.

See they're all fashionable and
gg, and you hang out with them.

And you are one of them.

And I'm like, no, no, no, no.

I'm the outsider.

I'm the weird one.

And she's like, no, no, no.

You fit in with like a
cool, good looking crowd.

This is when I was like 28, 29, right?

Yeah.

But she said, but guess what?

I don't care about that.

Yeah.

That's not why I like you.

I like you because you've got
good qualities as a person.

Yeah.

And that's what this is actually about.

And that's when you knew
you'd found a good one.

That's exactly right.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

But you know what that so you're
not cruel opposite of cruel.

No.

Kind.

No, I'm not in truth, but,
but not but, but being honest.

Exactly.

Kind, honesty.

And this was a nice, honest thing,
but you know what, it pissed

me off because I was like, no.

I want you to love me
for superficial reasons.

Yeah.

I'll, I'll be honest, it did not
land the way that she hoped it would.

Yeah.

You know?

No.

Well, you got a couple of kids out of it.

Well, let and look.

That's right.

And look, let's be honest,
I, I, I'll, I'll, yeah.

I'll be honest.

I have.

At least as much superficiality as
others after years of absolutely

bullshitting everyone to the
contrary that I only care about

meaningful things, absolute nonsense.

I wanna go on the record right now
as saying I'm as vain, shallow,

and superficial as anybody.

One of the biggest reasons I'm single
sitting here today is that if I catch

someone on the wrong angle, my It's over.

Yeah, it's over.

And my tr, and it seems to be my truth.

My brain is telling me that the truth is,
the truth is the unvarnished truth is this

person is not attractive, objectively,
not attractive, at least in this moment.

And, but that moment stays with me until
I then I, I don't use radical honesty.

I make up some other excuse and
I end the relationship and, and

that's why I'm still single at 45.

Yeah.

Because, because you're a shallow bitch.

Because I'm a And until I get less
shallow, I'm probably gonna stay

alone and I'm very lonely at times.

Oh yeah.

So I, I want to override it, but
it's again, comes back to well.

Are you being honest with yourself?

If you, if can you convince yourself
you're attracted to someone that

your base, your base nature is
saying isn't attractive all the time.

Man, this is so tough.

I really, okay, so I'm gonna propose we.

Focus on physical attract for
attractiveness, for all the,

everything that goes into
it for like another episode.

Uh, and I wanna, I actually would,
I'm really hoping we can hear from

people about this and, 'cause I
feel like this is, this, this is so

rich and psychoanalytically rich.

I think there's a lot that goes into it.

Your state and, and the first
thing I want to challenge.

And like I said, I wanna do a whole
episode on this so we can do it justice.

The big thing I wanna push back on.

Is this idea you have that this is
somehow an objective assessment?

Yeah, no.

That's how it presents
itself to me as the truth.

Whereas the story I was telling
myself, is this person's perfectly

attractive enough and, and this
has been the case numerous times.

Of course.

A wonderful person Yeah.

Of.

A wonderful person.

Yeah.

Great company.

Yeah.

Sex is great.

Yeah, I'm having a great time.

Everything's, and oh, I've just caught
her on a weird angle and yes, she's now

hideous to me, and yeah, and I've had
this experience, not for a long, long

time, but I have had this experience.

I'm still having it, man.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm in the thick of it, you
know, and it's ruining my life.

Oh, certainly the single part of my life.

Talk about honesty.

It is ruining your life.

But, but even if, if, even if you do just,
uh, you know, meet someone who's like

really, really very suitable, which you
have before and, and you do again, right.

What's to stop this thing
from happening again?

Right.

I know.

And so I think it has to be dealt with.

It has to be dealt with or will die alone.

You.

Fucking will.

Yeah.

I'm gonna be brutally honest with you.

Yeah.

And because I've got, you know, I'm,
I'm not a 10 myself, so I, I, I, come

on, what business do you have, right?

Yeah, that's right.

But you can't override it once
you, you can't override it.

It's very primal.

It's very pri It's very
like, am I going to make.

Babies with this person.

Yeah.

Correct.

So I, I think subconsciously obviously,
'cause you, I've had the snip, I'm not

making any more babies, but, right.

So there's some sort of
level of that happening.

Right.

But I also think this one is, as,
I've gotta be honest, I used to

go for the evolutionary psychology
explanation on these things.

Right.

And I was never 100% comfortable
with that field of theory.

'cause I've seen how it can be abused.

But there were.

Findings or ideas in there that
just did make a certain amount of

sense, and could help explain things,
certain things that happened, or at

least be part of the explanation.

Right?

So in this case, it might be part of
the explanation, but, but I've really

gone on a bit of a rabbit hole in
the last few years with aesthetics.

I've really thought really, really hard
about aesthetics and how, it's influenced

by our feeling of that something
is objectively attractive or not.

And I'm including objects
and, and yeah, places.

Cars, buildings, anything like a package
design, um, a park bench, like anything.

And I don't wanna get all American
Beauty on it and like, oh,

this plastic bag is beautiful.

Like, we can't, we can't distort
reality past a certain point, but

we have to recognize that it is
already somewhat distorted and, and

so there's a psychoanalytic part,
there's evolutionary psychology,

and then there's just aesthetic.

Politics going on all the time, and
we are completely enthralled to all

kinds of stuff that we have a duty to
really try and unpack for ourselves.

Ah, bro.

I'm probably still just trying to
date Umer Thurman from Pulp Fiction.

I think you've got, and I've been trying
to date her since I saw that film.

This is what I'm Exactly.

I got pretty close.

Yeah.

Uh, with some of my previous
partners, but like you did.

Yeah.

Like you did, like actually I had it.

I had, anyway, I think we
need to wrap it up, Sam.

What?

Yeah, what I'm trying to say is.

It's not objective, you know, that it's
gonna take some hardcore deprogramming.

Um, but I really, this is a worthwhile
topic for the future that I've been, yeah.

I need to overcome it if
I'm going to have a, yeah.

Like I had to take a break from
therapy because I was gonna say,

yeah, I took a break from therapy
because I wasn't changing anything

in my relationships with women.

Okay.

So what was the point of therapy?

Sure.

The one of the last things she said to me.

Is maybe if you sort all this
stuff out, Joe, then maybe one day.

Yeah, one day you might be able to
have an actual agile relationship.

Relationship with an actual woman.

Yes.

See you later.

Yes.

And that was six months ago or whatever,
and I have not progressed in that time.

Say on says she was calling a halt.

To the therapist, the time being, but
she, she's always happy to see me.

But when you do 10% of your time
on everything that's happening in

the world, and then 90% on your
relationships with women and then

relationships with women, you keep
behaving in the same way in the world.

What's the point of the therapy?

Until I want to, I wanna
change something, Sam?

Yeah.

And then go back to my therapist.

Yeah.

So change something in my behavior.

Yeah.

Do it consistently for a period of time.

Start an actual relationship
with an actual adult woman

who's got and who's got flaws.

And accept those flaws.

And accept the flaws.

And then go back to
therapy and like right.

I'm in with a chance here.

Please help me in with a chance.

That's right, not fairy tone, but at
the moment, I'm still stuck in the

same doom loop of no one's perfect.

And yeah, no, no, I, I can
totally say it and I can

absolutely remember living there.

And just having that Groucho Marks
thing of, I don't wanna be a member of

any club that we have, be as a member.

Like that's point fuck fundamentally.

That's what, yeah.

I'm a piece of shit.

So if you like me, you must be less
than a piece of shit there, there

must be something wrong with you.

Yeah, that's right.

All of that's so true.

And, and, and so, uh, and I'm gonna,
we're gonna have to go back into

attachment theory and, uh, devaluing
and, uh, all that stuff Alright.

Coming up in a future episode.

Yeah.

And let's hear from, uh,
let's hear from anyone.

Who wants to chime in on the
topic of appearance and, uh, hey,

attraction and get stuck in, men
are a bunch of superficial bastards

and they deserve a massive serve.

Uh, or actually, do you have a more
sympathetic take on it than that?

Mm.

You know, and like how much honesty is
welcome, uh, in a physical intimacy?

We always want radical
honesty from our listeners.

We do.

Yeah, that's right.

Okay.

So right in.

All right.

I'm gonna go, Sam.

Yes.

We're gonna go.

All right.

Thanks for having me.

Oh, you're welcome.

See you next time.

See you.

Alright.