Love This World
Download MP3Hello and welcome to the 10,000 things.
My name is Sam Ellis.
I'm Joe Loh.
Joe's been sitting on this topic
or this quote for about a year.
So a friend in, uh, addiction
recovery circles sent me this.
he has become quite a committed
Buddhist and uh, yeah, and he's
also an academic, so he sent me the
quote, and with full attribution and.
Also, you know, a bibliography
and all this stuff.
It wasn't just like a Instagram,
um, you know, quote, quote with a,
a picture behind it or something.
Yeah.
It was a fully referenced,
Tibetan, Buddhist, um.
Mm-hmm.
You know?
Anyway, then I just kept reading
it and rereading it every
day for about the last year.
Yeah.
And then I was hesitant to send it to
you, Sam, I've sent it to you, but,
there's a bunch of stuff in here I
have very little understanding of.
but maybe you should just read
it and Well, that's right.
I just wanted to add this over for
the interest of a little building, a
building, a little bit of suspense that
you, which we have already, I guess,
but that you wait, as you said, I've
got cold feet on this one and I knew.
I had this interesting choice.
I was like, eh, just be Mr.
Let it go.
Or no, I actually want to do this
one and I need to find out where
the cold feet are coming from.
So I asked, oh, and then you said
like, I feel like I don't have
that much to say about Buddhism.
Um, which is odd 'cause you've had
more engagement with it than me and
No, the real reason for the cold feet.
Do you want me to tell you the truth?
Yeah.
Okay.
So on Friday, today's Sunday.
On Friday afternoon at work, I
spoke to one of the psychiatrists
and Buddhism came up.
Ah, okay.
And she said, you know, I think
Buddha had clinical depression
and I would've given him some ECT,
which is electro convulsive therapy.
Convulsive therapy.
And you know, he went through that
whole eating disorder phase and.
I think Buddhism is a very
depressed religion and you know.
Hmm.
And I said, oh, would the Buddhists
say that my kids having epilepsy?
Is that because of something that
happened to them in past lives?
Or something they did in past lives?
And she said, yeah, they would say that.
And I said, ah, and I, and
she's Sri Laan, this woman.
So she's been exposed to a
lot of Buddhism, I assume.
Yeah.
And I thought I got a bit
dark on Buddhism, Sam.
'cause I've, I've engaged a lot with the
meditation practice and I've read the,
some books and stuff, but I've never
really engaged with past lives or Yeah.
Karma or reincarnation or, or
like, I fully believe that my
kids' epilepsy is a bio biological
phenomenon that's essentially random.
Yeah.
I don't think it has any.
Meaning, and that the only, and
if I started to think it had
some cursed meaning, I think it
would unpick my sanity around it.
And I'm trying to be very sane
about approaching the whole thing.
Mm-hmm.
So then that made me a bit dark on.
Thinking about Buddhism for a few hours
and then that was when we were messaging.
So that's how sensitive my system is.
One person tells me Buddha had
clinical depression, and then I'm
like, oh, well maybe fuck Buddhism.
It's true.
You are very suggestible.
It is true.
sometimes, you know why, because I think
other people are smarter than me, so I
think if someone's a, a psychiatrist,
well she's clearly a lot smarter than me.
Yeah.
And maybe the last.
10 years of interest in Buddhism
that can all be thrown out the window
because of one, essentially, you
know, joking remark about Buddhism
being a depressive religion.
Well, look, I mean, I'm not gonna,
yeah, I'm not gonna speculate.
I mean, I have thoughts about.
How I think there's, there's
some, there's definitely something
in what she said, like, I'm not
gonna dismiss it out of hand.
And I have read articles like
the problem with Buddhism or
the Dark Side of Buddhism.
There's, there's, look,
there's plenty of it.
You can go and look it up, whether
it's reports about a particular
ashram, which is not as cool as it
may appear, or that, and, you know,
I can talk about Raga life, right?
And uh, reports of.
monks that aren't happy or, or people
that have been sort of young people that
may maybe just a little bit because of
a lack of economic options, have sort of
just had to take up this occupation or
like, uh, and of course there's a whole
side of Buddhism, which Westerners don't
usually get a look at until more, maybe
more recently you'll get a bit of this.
of the, the Buddhas and the Tuper and
like, there's a lot of really interesting
kind of dark shamanic stuff in there.
Mm.
so one way to think about Buddhism
is as having a animist core,
which then got layered with a,
with a bit of polytheism from.
From, you know, India and then it got
layered with a bit of, well, 'cause
you know, it comes up in the soil of
Northern India and the mountains are
there and Tibet, Tibet is beyond those
mountains to the north, appalling between.
And then you have, you know, Bhutan to the
Northeast and, and you've got that part
of India called the Northeastern states,
which are considered sort of Indo-Chinese.
And just beyond there, you
know, we have Buddhists in.
You know, that sort of transitional part
of Indochina, Burma and then Thailand,
you know, the Vietnam, what they used
to call the Indochinese Peninsula.
And, and then of course China itself,
uh, you know, all the way from Central
Asia to the east and then Japan beyond
that with its Zen Buddhist tradition.
And so you've got all these flavors
of Buddhism stretching all the
way from India to Japan, and then.
Stretching also in the, in
the direction of the west.
And then fast forward to the 20th
century, you've got the United
States and the UK and Western Europe,
Buddhism of the kind of a sort of
missionary, slightly commodified form
starts to take hold in those places.
So it is a very radically diverse set of
traditions and doctrines and teachings.
There are some central scriptures
that underlie all of it, but.
There are also some, I don't
know, shamanic or animist,
things like buried inside of it.
And it's the same with Hinduism, and
it's the same with, uh, Christianity.
Um, that it does still bear Some of its.
Animist roots and its ancestor worship
roots and or where it's landed.
The people that practice Christianity have
kept their ancestor worship going, and
that's gotten transferred into the Saints.
And so there's all these different, like
basically religion is layers and layers
and layers like archeological, like soil
sedimentation, you know what I mean?
Like you drill, you drill a
core sample down into the earth.
Or or into ice.
Right.
And then look at all the pollen
that's trapped in the layers of ice.
Right?
Yeah.
I mean, and that's what
I find in religion.
It's, it's like this long accretion of
human experience all lumped into one word.
Yeah.
The Buddhism that's come to me is
the Buddhism of late 20th century,
early 21st century, so repo.
Yeah.
And the Tibetan book of Living and
Dying Western, Western followers
of Dai Lamas died to happiness.
Art of Happiness, yeah.
Western followers of different, like,
whether it's Aja Cha, the type, Mariana,
ADA, Buddhist, you know, like they, they
generally have lineage back to lineage,
an eastern person, but it's a Western
person, generally a white Western person
who's explaining Buddhism to me in a very.
Appealing form.
Well, that was the, yes.
Essentially.
Not so much as a religion,
but as a psychological Yes.
System and a way to, okay.
So it's being consciously marketed in a
different way to a different audience.
Right.
So we've gotta, we've gotta give
some credit to people for being a
bit sophisticated and understanding
the right ways to talk about it.
Certain people, the people that came back
in the seventies were like Jack Kornfield.
Sharon Salzberg, um mm-hmm.
And they're still around today.
And what's his name?
Oliver?
Uh, um, he, I like him a lot.
I mean, obviously you're Alan Watts.
Well, the one that got me through COVID.
Yeah.
Thomas Merton Chang Zu.
The one that got me through COVID
is a guy called Henry Shukman.
Henry Shukman, yes.
He's wonderful.
Who's, um, also a poet,
so he writes beautifully.
Uh, he's a Zen Buddhist guy, so there's,
I've been influenced a lot by Buddhism.
Yeah.
but without ever signing up to the
precepts and the eightfold path and Yeah.
Yeah.
You never, you never took a guru.
Yeah.
I've got a friend who listens to
this show, actually, who's, um,
who's just been volunteering at the
local temple and has just taken vows.
Oh.
And of course, Ramdas was definitely
leaning pretty heavily on the, well, yeah.
But see.
I finally let him go.
Yeah.
Let him go.
Because I said it on the show
last time, like, I can't believe
what he's told me about his guru.
And later when he started
talking to a dead person Yeah.
Called Emmanuel.
I just can't come at that.
so I'm trying to have some kind
of weirdly rational spirituality,
which is quite a creative tension
in spirituality, I've gotta admit.
Well, this is what I'm saying, like
within this ja, within this very neat
sounding term, Buddhism lies a wide
range of practices from just fairly kind
of fairly pure and simple meditation
through to all kinds of elaborate
ritual and complicated teachings.
And like Yeah, I've mostly
done simple guided meditations.
Yeah.
And read a couple of books.
That's right and, and then there's
this feeling of like, amongst a lot of
people, like should I just disregard
this question of harm of karma?
Because it is a bit problematic
and reincarnation, right?
Yes.
Karma and reincarnation are where it
gets, like they ask you to believe
things that you can't prove, and
that's where religion, you know,
generally loses me as opposed to my
kind of vague spirituality that I've.
Had for the last 10 years.
Yes.
And I don't think that your sort
of spirituality, uh, or just the
journey you've been on and the
things you've needed, I don't know
if karma was gonna add much to it.
Um, maybe reincarnation.
all right, shall we do the quote?
Let's, let's stop teasing everyone.
So abominably far too much preamble.
The quote will now make a lot
more sense though, and the
preamble will make more sense.
So there's a title given
to it, which is natural.
Great peace,
rest in natural, great peace.
This exhausted mind beaten, helpless
by karma and neurotic thought like
the relentless fury of pounding waves
in the infinite ocean of Samsara.
All right.
Can you, can we line by line it?
We're gonna have to line by line it.
So first of all, that does go attribution
goes to no Kempo Jam, young Doge.
So that's from the Tibetan tradition.
Rather than say the North Indian tradition
or et cetera, all the other ones,
rest in natural.
Great peace.
Okay.
So natural, great peace makes
a lot of sense to me from my
experiences in meditation.
Mm-hmm.
There is a natural piece to
consciousness, which was not present
for me as an adult until I started doing
meditation and then I rediscovered it.
I probably had it as a child, but,
uh, it was only once I started
practicing medica meditation, I
found this natural great piece.
So rest in natural, great.
Peace makes sense to me.
What's the next line?
This exhausted mind.
Can you relate to that, Sam?
Oh yeah.
So, right.
But I wanna stop for a second, but
I want to, both those two needs to
be talked about together, right?
And the, the question I had for you, after
what you said about the first line is.
You didn't have the natural great
peace maybe did as a child until you
had meditation, until you did it.
And how would you describe your
experience of consciousness before that?
Well, so what I ha what I had was
unnatural great peace, which was
called being drunk on alcohol.
Yeah.
So I had a lot of that
before I stopped drinking.
It was only natural great peace.
I only discovered once I stopped drinking
and, and was forced to meditate as
part of my addiction recovery program.
Yeah, hang hangovers
are not very peaceful.
No.
But when you're actually drunk
and you, you fears drop away
and like, it's been a while.
It's been over 10 years for
me, Sam, but I do recall it
being quite peaceful that time.
Hmm.
Yep.
I remember finding refuge in it and
just suddenly feeling a sensation.
A sensation of anxiety.
Like a stopping of something.
Yeah.
And, and feeling the thoughts slow down.
Yeah.
And things like that.
Well, even a Valium, you know?
Yeah.
Oh boy.
Valium's.
Maybe a better version of it.
I was addicted to that too.
Great stuff.
But that's not natural piece.
Don't recommend this.
That's not something I can access.
No.
The moment I wake up in the morning
without putting a substance into my body.
Right.
And so of course I need to make an
acknowledgement here that something there
are chemical means with that have been,
you know, given proper lab trials and,
you know, trials out in the na, you know,
in the population to determine whether
these are suitable and safe, et cetera.
And leaving aside all the drugs that have
been approved that aren't suitable and
safe, And acknowledgement that sometimes
a bit of chemical piece is the way to go.
Um, and you certainly needed
some in Thailand, right?
Bit of Thorazine or
something that they gave you?
Yeah.
I mean, if I'm having a full blown
psychotic episode, I need to be sedated.
But at this point in my life,
I would say outside of that,
I don't need to be sedated.
No, no, no.
The the, the need doesn't really arise
or you have access to other means of
sedation or, or to say it like this.
You are able to self-soothe
often or often enough, and.
You know, it's on the MHCP questionnaire
that I found myself, um, unable to
relax or calm down or something.
Like it's one of the items on the
mental health care Ah, yeah, yeah.
Plan questionnaire.
Yeah.
Never able to relax.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well that's not really resting
in natural great peace.
No, it's not this exhausted mind.
That's right.
And so what I found, what's the next line?
Uh, beaten helpless by
karma and neurotic thought.
Oh my God.
So a major source of my interest
in alcohol was trying to get
refuge from neurotic thought.
Yeah, me too.
And you still got that?
You've still got that.
I mean, I guess I've still got it too.
I could walk across the road to the ton
and start drinking straight after this.
Mm-hmm.
But you've still given yourself
that path if you want it.
Yeah.
yeah.
But yeah, the, I've leaned
on it more lately, I'll say.
but I also happen to be, I'm
aware that I can put my feet back
on the path of just not, yeah.
Yeah, I think most of the pain in my
life has just been from neurotic thought
much more than whatever's happened to me.
Well, yeah, and the problems we
cause ourselves, selves are in
response to the neurotic thought.
We're either, we're either trying
to pursue the thought and act on it,
or we're trying to get away from it.
Either way, it's unhealthy.
Yeah.
Someone friend of the show, rainbow
said to me that he thought my
fascination with LSD was because
I'm a neurotic, and you know, it's
such a head game with LSD, isn't it?
It's like it can be.
That's what I've heard.
Such intellectual, yeah.
Such an intellectual trip.
I don't think it'd be good for me at all.
You never tried it?
No.
Really?
Yeah.
Yeah.
It would be, you'd be an
amazing person to take it.
I mean, I'm never planning on
taking another LSD trip, but I
think with me it'd be a hat on.
A hat.
Yeah.
You might just be exactly
the same or, or just.
Too much.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It could get pretty weird in there like,
and I mean that's obviously the point,
but like it already is very, yeah.
Labyrinth thing and it would be amazing.
The cosmic.
Yeah.
The talking and laughing, if it was
a good trip would just be next level.
I'm interested in mushrooms for sure,
but yeah, talking, talking and laughing.
I'm a big fan anyway.
That's big fan of that.
No, it's, this is not a side note
because it's a bit of a sidetrack.
No, because you tried to
find peace through LSD.
You were trying to work out some things.
You were trying to, you know, I thought
for the longest time, Sam, I thought
I could think my way through life.
You thought you could
engineer your way through it?
Yes.
I thought I could think things through.
Yes.
And then I would understand
and then I would be okay.
And I've had to surrender
and realize doesn't work.
It's quite the opposite.
I need to actually ex
ignore 99% of my thinking.
Yeah.
And rest in natural great peace.
Yes.
And just do the next right
thing that's in front of me.
Yes.
Uh, and there's really very little
thinking that I need to act upon.
Yes.
But yeah, I mean, like the
quote said, I've been beaten
helpless by neurotic thought.
You know, it's almost like, why
do we even need karma in there?
Yeah, well that question, you are
hopefully gonna explain karma to me.
You're gonna Sam Splain karma To me, that
was what I was hoping, partly for this
quote, but what's the rest of the quote?
Okay.
It's not that long.
No.
We're nearly there.
Beaten, helpless by karma
and neurotic thought like the
relentless fury of pounding waves.
So that's really just a nice
metaphor to underscore the, the,
you know, this is really just an
illustration of the, the nouns.
Yeah.
Mentioned in the previous
line Karma, neurotic thought.
Uh, then likened to pounding waves,
sort of, I guess eroding rock.
Yeah.
With their relentlessness.
And the mind is not like rock, is it?
No, it's much more like
water, I would've said.
Yeah.
Um, but in the infinite ocean of samsara.
Okay.
So an appropriate metaphor
to follow from the waves.
Now.
Two more interesting noun.
So the, the two ocean and samsara.
Yeah.
So the two things I need help with that.
So I love this quote and I
read it every day for a year.
It's cool, I like it, but I
don't really know what karma is.
I have some like, um, rudimentary
understanding and I don't really know
what Samsara is, but you know, everything.
And you also mentioned, uh, great
good Sam Samsara was part of the Hindu
tradition as well, was karma as well.
Yes.
So Karma and Samsara are terms
you grew up with in Hari Krish
in the Hari Krishna world.
Yes.
And do they have the same meaning
as in Tibetan Buddhism or similar?
Okay, well here's where I could have spent
some time on Wikipedia first because,
sorry, Wikipedia is a, is a good website.
Um, but no, no, no.
I can say with the level of
confidence that there will
not be a radically different.
Teaching on karma and Samsara and
the, the thing I really feel bad
about not looking up, and I did know
this at one point, who borrowed what?
From who?
Ah, yeah.
But that's a bit of a sidebar are Sure.
I'm trying to apply it to my
life in Melbourne in 2026.
So I don't wanna get, I don't
want to make any claims about.
Hinduism had this notion,
then Buddhism took it.
Uh, because when you say Hinduism, it's
like, well, what are we referring to here?
Are we referring to like 10, I
dunno, five to 10,000 years of
evolving belief and polytheism
and sort of daily ritual practice?
Or are you referring to stuff
that's in the piranhas and the
Vaders and the Erford Gita?
Uh, well, yeah.
Those are all tied together some way.
but it's not that, it's like when
we talk about ancient Egypt, right?
It makes it sound like a sort
of several hundred year period.
Well, it's not, it's like a time span
of like 5,000 years and different
things happened all through that.
So the same goes with Hinduism, Buddhism,
but the two things, uh, the two.
Words have been closely tied
together for a long time, and
they've exchanged ideas and they've
influenced one another enormously.
So Karma came from one and
was taken by the other.
And, uh, Samsara also.
So I think it's a Sanskrit word, karma
and samsara, both Sanskrit words.
So I'm inclined to say it comes from,
The, the Hindu side of it, but it's a
teaching that actions have reactions.
Okay.
That's pretty simple so far.
So Newtonian universe, the earth, mass,
mass exerts gravity towards me, right?
But I also exert a very
insignificant amount of gravity.
It's back towards the earth also.
and so in the, you know, Newtonian
physics, everything's like
quite exquisitely balanced and
symmetrical, and it's, it's nice.
It's what Einstein called the, you know,
the, the blind watchmaker, you know,
like the ex, this exquisitely designed
mechanical universe where everything runs.
Perfectly.
And then he comes and com complicates
the picture with relativity and
you know, quantum stuff, right?
So ham's a little bit
Newtonian in some ways.
It's like, it's very,
you know, one for one.
You know, you do this sort of thing,
it's gonna come back on you in more
or less inverse equal proportion.
Right.
But it may come back
to you in a later life.
Mm-hmm.
So this is where it gets troubling.
So it's not just what I've
done since I was born.
Mm-hmm.
Causing my life situation.
No, no.
It's past lives.
Oh yeah.
I find that hard one to come at.
This is all, look, people struggle enough
with the idea that they should feel.
Any sort of responsibility towards
things their ancestors did.
And by the way, I'm actually with Viktor
Frankl on this one who said, you know,
in Germany where he said, no, there's
nothing to be gained From the teaching
and preaching and insistence on a
doctrine of collective guilt, people
will eventually become hostile to that
notion and they'll reject the notion
of collective guilt for things that
they weren't physically present for.
And that will get in the way of the
real work, which is just to try and be
objective about what actually happened
and to have an interest in how you have a
better future without like, who's with me?
Let's have a better future.
Right?
That, that's the framing, not like
a kind of, um, insistence on, guilt
and, and sort of neurosis, right.
So, and practical terms, and a
Hindu would say, well, yeah, Kamel
would sort it all out anyway.
And the universe is keeping track and
will apportion the responsibilities.
So when they're so alright, here I,
I'll reduce it to practical terms.
So right now I'm very single.
Right, right.
And I can look at.
My lifetime of actions
or my adulthood at least.
So let's say 25 years of actions.
Mm-hmm.
And it's very clear, I don't know if
you'd call it karma, but there's a
very clear cause and effect that has
led me to be completely single without
a single prospect of going on a date.
So you've, you feel
like you've earned this?
Yeah, it's completely, I can take
full a hundred percent responsibility.
I have made.
This situation, which I So you're
not, don't like the situation.
So you're not a grievance
m mongering incel.
No.
There's, there's a reason
why I'm single and it's me.
But that's different from saying
there's a reason why I'm single
and it's because of what happened
300 years ago in a past life.
Well, no, I mean, the karma
could be much more proximate.
Right?
It doesn't, I mean, the, so, okay,
so then you have to pair it with
the idea of reincarnation, right?
So.
So it basically goes like this.
The universe is on a wheel of
creation and destruction, uh,
over like millions of years.
In fact, universes, remember, okay,
you've got a picture of Vishnu with
these forearms lying on a bed of
snakes and un shaha with a hundred
heads, reciting the vaders constantly
like a snake with a hundred heads and
Lakshmi goddess a fortune is there.
That's the two, uh, uh, the
sort of simultaneous male female
manifestation of the one, right?
And, uh, so God is not he
or she, it's both right.
And then out of Vishnu's, pause,
uh, the universe has come.
So with like every breath in and out.
The universe, the universes come in and
are destroyed and then go out again.
And inside each one of those
little bubbles, they were sort
of visualized as for me as a kid.
There's a Vishnu on a bed of snakes
and there's a Brahma growing a Brahma
sitting in the lotus flower growing
out of, uh, the navel of Vishnu.
And then sort of inside that is contained
the world and inside that lotus flower and
barma is, uh, maintaining that universe.
That little universe until Shiva
comes along and destroys it, raga.
And you know, the guy with the
dreadlocks and the Trident.
what's that got to do
with me being so single?
Well, all of this is a cycle that goes on
and on and on endlessly, and that inside
of each one of those little universes.
Is a cycle of birth and death carried
out by millions and millions of souls.
Continuously each one on the same
wheel, the same wheel of samsara.
So samsara is sometimes characterized
as an ocean of of uncertainty and.
Trouble.
It's a stormy place.
It can be calm at times.
An ocean of misery and
uncertainty and suffering.
Others call it, this is get
back, this gets back to what my
psychiatrist friend calling it.
Depressive.
Yeah.
It is a little religion.
It is not a super life-affirming take.
the forest fire of existence.
Others translate samsara as the
forest fire of existence and
others does talk about it as
the, the, the endless cycle of.
Uh, birth Karma, death,
birth, karma, death.
Just on and on and on.
Yeah.
Because the goal of Buddhism is
Nirvana, which means you finally get
off the cycle of birth and death, but
then that's a bit depressive because
that means you finally cease to exist.
But that is, well, exactly.
So the main difference
CEA to exist is the great.
That's the prize you win.
So the short cut to the end of Buddhism
would be just to kill yourself.
No, no, no.
But then you incur, you
incur karma for doing that.
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Trigger.
Sorry, I'm not endorsing any of this.
I'm just letting you know what
I know about it as in terms of
what the doctrine is about it.
It's a strange goal to want end
the cycle of birth and death and
get off the wheel of samsara.
Well, here's the thing.
It's a strange goal.
Yeah.
Your total goal is, uh,
extinction, essentially.
Extinction of a particular form
of experience, which then gets
transformed into something else.
It's actually not extinction,
it's just for that person.
They merged with the one and cease
to have a separate consciousness,
but they, but they experience
a single unified consciousness.
And is that, does that at least feel good?
I think you, you've experienced
it so you can tell me.
Hmm.
Where you felt there was just
one consciousness and that
there was no separate self.
Yes.
You're already kind of there
if you check in with it.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Which is what we tried to talk
about on the last episode.
Yeah.
I got some feedback from friend of
the show Ollie as well, who said, gee.
No self is hard to talk about.
Yeah.
And uh, Ollie's gone pretty
deep with it himself at times.
So yeah, the negation of the self is a
pursuit of many, many of us have had.
Well, yeah, just investigating and
finding no self, but it's tied up with.
Yeah, but see here's an, alright,
so, so I haven't really been
able to explain why I'm single.
No, well, hang on minute.
Sorry.
I explained why I'm single
without using karma.
I'm getting to that.
Right?
But, so if you wanted to use Karma
as a framework for that Yeah.
It's this simple in your, so I had to
say all of that about the cycle, right?
And how, because of the nature of
so, so here's the real bit bastard
of a bitch, of a part of it, right?
So.
The, the problem is that because of the
miserable nature of samsara, this ex,
this difficult, troubled existence we
have here a, a separate to the oneness
or in the ha krishna teaching separate to
the divine personality of God, Krishna to
whom all the gods will merge back into all
the mortals we'll merge back into, and we
actually are all infinitely mort immortal.
But if we.
Separate our consciousness away from
God and try to enjoy separately and have
independent thought and free will that we
will inevitably then have to experience
suffering and temporariness and, and with
temporariness comes grasping and clinging
and with grasping and clinging, come
neurotic thoughts, et cetera, et cetera.
Yes.
And then, and then because of this
disease state that these mortals are in.
They will do bad things to each other
and then constantly incur more karma.
Okay, this is making sense.
So it's a horrible setup.
Yeah.
So if I merge with the one and
realize that I am the one and there
is no separate joke, you'll stop
doing bad stuff to other people, then
clinging and craving will drop away.
They won't make any sense and I won't
even want to girlfriend or it will
not matter to you either way, and
that you will be a being of such.
Just sort of effortless peace and
benness that people will be drawn to you.
That sounds good.
Yeah.
And, and that, you know, you'll,
you'll be perfectly capable of
taking up a, a, a loving, equal
commitment to another human being.
Oh, this sounds great, doesn't it?
Jess?
How do I do this bit?
Well, I think it's a lot of the
things you're already doing, I guess.
Meditation, therapy, um, not taking toin.
Yeah, following a, you know, consciously
following a program of, of staying
sober and, and, and getting, getting the
maintenance you need on a look after,
you know, look out for your own garden.
Keep that consciousness as good as
you can get it, and be humble and make
sacrifices and give a, you know, live a
life of service and all this because they
tell you about the karma and all that.
And then they go, well,
here's the good news.
If you pray and, and, and worship and do
charitable acts, well, here's the problem.
Charitable acts also
incur good karma, right?
Which sounds good, except you
have to then get reborn in
order to receive the good karma.
And some people get reborn just to
cop a really p awful piece of bad
karma, like cystic fibrosis diet
30, uh, others are born to die
even sooner and more miserably.
You know, Richard, the third or whatever
make make it to 23 and get the, get
the throne for two seconds and then.
Eat it at the next battle, right?
I often think about the sort of
short lives of people in history and
the, the tormented harried existence
that some of these sort of like
great figures of history actually
experienced a pretty restless life.
So, so what do they say about someone
who's living a long and happy life
that they've probably managed to incur?
Very little bad karma in recent lives
because of the, there is one little get
out card, which is one little sliver of
hope, which is that the human form of life
comes with a blessing and a curse known
as consciousness, and that the experience
of consciousness is very difficult.
Animals are not troubled by the
conscious, the degree of consciousness
that other species possess.
We can debate.
We may even get it, get it
one day and fully understand.
But for the majority, majority of mammals
ex engage in fairly predictable behavior,
and you could argue that humans do too.
But humans have this other layer,
which is awareness of mortality.
Uh, they've got an ego concept.
They've got a theory of mind of others,
which means we're plagued by thoughts
about what others think about us.
And we're either selfish and
declare all the other minds to
just be a, an extension of our own
consciousness that's called solecism.
Or we become overly concerned with the
minds of others and that sort of self
abandonment, Uh, or in some way we just
find our own consciousness intolerable
and try to sort of wipe it out or,
or blanket or deny it in some way.
And one of the ways that people
deny that or try to deal with the
discomfort of their consciousness,
this is the teachings I had as a kid.
They seek refuge in drugs or gambling
or intimacy and just seek to use
others to make themselves feel better.
And that this, uh.
Is understandable, but unfortunately to
the degree, I guess what the karma people
might say, Joe, is that to the degree
you left others feeling dissatisfied that
you then had to experience that yourself.
Yeah, see I'm, I think I'm on board
with karma within my one lifetime
that I can verifiably, say exists.
So that's what most people will agree to.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I can't, I'll own the actions I've done
in this life and pay the price of them.
And that's exactly where I think
I am with my, uh, dating life.
Because in your early twenties, you were
a bit selfish to your girlfriends, right?
Oh, I've been an asshole
the whole way through.
Yeah.
Up until, you know, a month ago you
did a better job in marriage though,
than you might have thought, right?
I tried.
I tried hard and, you know, I'm, I'm
having, I'm having a much, I'm having
a completely positive experience as a
father with none of this shit that has
gone on with women that I've dated.
Mm.
Whereas I'm raising two daughters
and doing a good job of it
to the best of my ability.
And then have a very bonded and
loving relationship with them.
you know, so that is like good karma.
That is like, yeah, I
think that the stuff.
The, the stuff that happens
between parents and children,
it can really feel karmic to me.
I've definitely experienced that.
Whereas oth other people will say
almost intergenerational trauma and
you know, you've gotta be conscious
of it and like try to head it.
You know, don't, don't perpetuate
stuff if you can help it and Yeah.
Well I grew up in a household
where both my parents drank
every night and smoke weed.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And they've grown up in a
household where I haven't had a
single drink in over 10 years.
You changed that.
Script.
Yeah.
Change the epigenetics.
Yeah.
Well that too, not just the script.
Yeah, the epigenetics.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, and it's paying off now that
they're teenagers, they, they really
like me, you know, and yeah, you've
not managed to earn their contempt.
You've not managed to like earn some
sort of cops and bad karma back from
them sort of thing because Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's been suggested to me by a
psychologist that maybe I could extend
this person that I am as a father.
Into other areas of my life,
whether it's work or dating.
Mm-hmm.
Well, this is what I was gonna
say before, and she's stolen
my thunder, this new therapist.
Okay.
So, no, no, that was the old one.
That was the old one.
Well, I mean, yeah, yeah.
I agree.
But I was like, oh, I could be the way
I am with my kids, with other people.
Yes.
But I don't love them unconditionally.
I don't see myself in them.
You know?
It's completely different relationship.
No, no.
Yeah, I know.
I agree.
Right on the surface, that makes sense.
So, but I'm also just want to echo your
experience of finding that whatever
happened in relationships in your life
that you could make sense of it and
that you were not, um, you felt no
entitlement to any sense of grievance
or that it was someone else's fault.
Uh, and that you could see how and why the
things you did led to where it ended up.
Right.
So that's a, that's a really good.
Place of accountability to
end up at, and that gives me
a lot of hope for your future.
Now, I'll also say that I've, you
know, there were times when I was on
the, I was on the miserable end of
things and, you know, just feeling,
unmet needs and not heard and so
on, and I had to reflect that.
Well, that's how I made others feel.
And so maybe there is something in
this karma thing, but I would prefer
to just call it a metaphor for what.
The actual accountability mechanisms
are, you know, well, lemme ask you
this, Sam, you're not a practicing Hari
Krishna anymore, so clearly I don't
see a value in the, yeah, well, well,
do you see value in the concepts of,
um, Samsara and Karma, or do you reject
them now as, unscientific, uh, nonsense?
Well, I don't, it's sort of, yes, yes.
It's a, a simple answer
is yes, but I would say.
it's neither here nor there,
whether they're scientific.
I think the real test for me is
watching the behaviors of people
that espouse these beliefs and
whether that works for me or not.
And then of course, if there's, if you
meet a good person that believes utterly
in calm, whereas I have, do you know what?
I'm not gonna give credit
to their belief in karma.
I am gonna say that their belief in karma
helps to reinforce the sort of life they
wanna live, and that it actually takes
a conscious effort and their ability
to recognize that, that they deserved
something that happened to them, or
that it made cosmic sense that something
happened to them and that it was not
an injustice because they could point
to similar ways they had failed others.
Right?
And I would say this is actually
a good way to live your life,
but I wouldn't give credit.
To their, that person
happening to believe in karma.
See, I think it's unfair that
my kids both have epilepsy.
Yeah, that is unfair.
I think that's unfair, right?
And so Christianity has the problem
of evil where it can't give a you a
reason for why that happened other
than God's testing your faith.
The Hindus go, Hey Joe, we've
got a really neat answer to that.
Something happened in a past life now.
No.
Now you just need to swallow
the idea that we are all reborn.
Every, yeah, however many.
See, the only way I can make sense of it
is it's a naturally occurring phenomenon
that can be explained by medical science.
Yeah.
Isn't that a good enough explanation?
That's the only one that I can
really come at without losing my
mind, Sam, about something I'm so
worried about and stressed about.
Some DNA went a certain way once upon
a time, and some of it ended up in you.
Some of it ended up in
Lucia, and here we are.
Yes.
That's, that's the explanation.
Yeah.
And there's no, there's
no great meaning to it.
We've just gotta treat it as
best we can with modern medicine.
No great meaning to anything in life.
We, we have to attribute meaning to it.
But I've always sought,
meaning, I've always sought.
Meaning, I'm not saying it's a universe
without meaning, but what I'm saying is
humans consciously create that meaning
and we, we all need to participate
with full awareness and responsibility
in this task of creating meaning for
each other and our, uh, and ourselves.
Yeah.
And, and I, you know, I genuinely
believe that if I was living up near
Byron Bay and I was anti-Western
medicine and I was treating them with
the epilepsy, than they are getting the,
some of the world's best treatment at
the Children's Hospital in Melbourne.
I have to believe that.
And I have full faith, if
you want to call it faith.
Mm.
But it's verifiable.
Yeah.
In western science.
Right.
You know, to, to address this problem.
Well, look at that.
You and Ali, not so different after all.
Me and who?
Ali.
You remember Alex from the show?
Yeah.
Why was she anti, what
was she anti in pro.
Oh, no, no, no.
Just that she'll be, I think she'd be
agreeing entirely with like, yeah, this
is a really, this is a really important
to, to hang on to like, you know, just
try to reality test the things that
pass through our minds and, you know,
try to go with evidence, the best
evidence we can find as much as possible.
So then, yeah, but see, the thing is,
Sam, I could pull this all apart and, Hmm.
End up with no spirituality.
No, but that, that's the thing.
This is why No, no, but hear me out.
I don't Yeah.
But why did I sit with this quote
for a year and whenever I read it,
it wasn't an intellectual response.
No.
I got a deep physical, and I would
say spiritual response that made me
go, ah, rest in natural great peace.
Mm-hmm.
This exhausted mind.
Mm-hmm.
Like there was such a, it was
like, I felt understood by this.
Tibetan monk in a way that I don't,
just having a con, even having a
conversation with a psychologist,
let alone having a conversation
with a friend, I don't feel quite as
understood as I do by this Tibetan monk.
What's going on there?
It's not an intellectual,
scientific exercise.
It's something deeper that's, it's
landing with me on a deep level,
and maybe one day I'll come to
fully understand and believe in.
Karma and samsara, and maybe like
my friend, I'll one day go down
to my local Buddhist, temple and
start volunteering and take vows and
I'll do the precepts and the like.
Maybe I'm not saying that
facetiously, like maybe I will.
Wow.
I could see it happening.
But for the moment, things
like reincarnation just, I
can't come at that, you know?
I don't believe that.
That seems impossible to me.
What do you, what do you make
of the Christian teaching of.
You know the resurrection of Jesus?
Mm.
Well I just read a Catholic book
and I can't come at that either.
Sam, I can't believe that anyone
ever came back from the dead.
You, you founded a really
powerful read, but yeah, same
as when I read Buddhist texts.
So I can seemingly read Christian and
Buddhist texts and get a lot out of them
and get a really nice feeling in my bones.
Mm-hmm.
But I can't quite come
at the resurrection.
Of a human being back to life, especially
'cause it's never happened since.
Mm.
Um, when we've all got our smartphones
and could take a photo with after
we rolled the rock back or whatever.
Mm.
Um, yes.
Whereas, whereas I believe it's
a miracle that I don't drink
alcohol and I'm happy about it.
Well now that's my sort of miracle.
That's a miracle I can come at.
Mm-hmm.
Because that's a miracle that I've
had a personal experience with.
It's not so much the not drinking, I
think I could have not drank and been a
miserable cunt, but to not drink and be
happy about it is, is a miracle to me.
And if we had told you that 20
years ago, you'd have had a very,
very difficult time believing.
Yeah, well, 20 years ago I had
no interest in not drinking.
Well, that's what I mean.
And then, so it would've been just
a matter of just profound disbelief
and, uh, what's the skepticism
to say the least that one day
you'd be like, nah, and I'm happy.
Right.
Yeah, exactly.
So, so the, the limit of the, your own
point in time experience back then, right.
We can easily recognize that now.
And so then we have to have
the same humility about the
present moment that we're in.
And go, there's a limit to what
this consciousness can encompass
and we can do our best to expand it.
Yeah.
And we can do our best to improve
the quality and clarity of it.
And, and, but what, but if you don't
believe in karma and samsara anymore.
Yeah.
Why did you wanna talk about
this quote on the show?
Because did it, did you
vibe with it at all?
Well, I'm gonna tell you why.
Yeah, of course.
I'm gonna tell you why.
How can you vibe with it when
you've ruled out the key cons,
spiritual concepts in it?
No, because, because I'll tell you what.
Look, I guess I, I'm realizing, geez,
what I'm realizing is I could probably
talk or write at great length about my,
just what you'd call like a, a memoir
about my experience of this word, right?
I could say a lot, and there'd be in,
there'd be all these stories about
things that were explained in terms of
karma and then how my, I had a simple
faith in it, and then I had a kind of
more sophisticated belief in it, and.
And how it started to make sense
as a philosophy to me, and that my
mother kind of inducted me into it and
that I started to really live by it.
And I, what do you know?
I met lots of people who also
wanted to live by it, right?
But that was not necessarily
as a Hari Krishna.
And I could certainly identify with
the notion of samsara and that I,
uh, I tried to write, to write about.
Uh, the profundity I saw in it,
in me, like I sort of wrote songs
that were expressing that idea.
Right.
And I just don't have the same interest
in it now, but it, but I understand that
for a lot of people it has a very poetic
and powerful meaning these terms, right?
Because I've, uh, yeah.
I mean, so I've experienced that myself.
Yeah.
But what I am gonna say is I wanted
to have a more life affirming.
Consciousness than that.
And I'm not saying Harry
Christians are walking around
being grim, miserable bastards.
In fact, a lot of them are quite joyous
and it seems a joyous religion from the
outside, especially when you're walking
down Swanson Street clapping and singing.
Yeah.
And some of them are do or sad.
Sad sack and some.
The other key, the put us concept
that I really vibe with is dka.
Yes.
D Happiness and distress.
Yes.
Like unsatisfactorily?
Yes.
Like, don't you feel that a lot
of, like I, of course I know if I'm
in an infinite ocean of samsara.
Uh, well, every morning in temple, you
know, art, there's a gu and, uh, you sing,
um, I think it's in the guru Samsara,
which means basically it's like the
whole, it's a hymn, which is saying.
Help me out, guru.
I'm here in Samsara.
I'm here in this forest fire of existence.
Please, like, get me the fuck out of here.
Mm-hmm.
Like, uh, I, I mean, I'm
drowning in this ocean.
Get me the fuck outta here.
And, and there's the chaitanya prayer,
which is the only thing that that prophet
or avatar of Vishnu, if you believe that.
But he was a historical person.
Bit of a jesusy sort of
figure in North India.
Northeast India and all the way down to
the south, uh, around 540 or so years ago.
And he only wrote left behind one
text, which is the Tya prayers.
And it's, it's very, it's beautiful
poetry and it reminds me of this.
And Chaitanya just basically says,
conquering this mind and conquering
the sufferings of this world is beyond
what just any ordinary person can do.
And I need the help of.
The great one, and please give
me, oh, like a higher power.
Yes.
And please give me that help.
I have this great intellect.
I've beaten all the great scholars,
but what good did it do me?
You know, I was born in a Brahman family,
high caste, but what good did it do me?
Like, I don't wanna
live in a caste system.
I just want, we're all just souls
suffering and we all need the refuge.
You know, we we're all just, we're all
just in the ocean of distress together.
Whether we're brah, miners or
untouchables, all of us are equals.
We should all surrender and we should
all love one another and we should all,
uh, just take refuge in, in Krishna.
So very, you can imagine this was a
powerful message, you know, like he was
proposing to abolish the caste system and
to, nevermind Hindus, nevermind Muslims.
We're all just suffering in this
ocean and let's help each other out.
It's kind of a beautiful message.
Um, and so I'm saying there was
a positivity to the idea of the,
the, the, okay, this miserable
suffering, but with it comes this
great refuge and this great hope.
And, but I just wanted something
more ordinary over time.
Like the powerful poetry of like, I,
I surrender and you know, I give up.
I'm helpless.
I let go.
Play me, place me as an.
Place me as one of the
atoms at your feet, right?
Mm-hmm.
That's what he asks
for in the final verse.
And I know, I know no one but you as
my Lord and you shall remain so even
though you handle me roughly, uh, by
your absence, you know, so it's, it's
this great song of longing and, well,
one thing that Catholic book, I read
Richard Rohr talk, a couple of really
fascinating things that I took from it.
Is that this Western
enlightenment idea of progress Mm.
Is not the same as the
Christian idea of suffering.
No.
Like there isn't, in Catholicism,
there's no assumption of
any progress for humanity.
Well, sure.
Like yes.
And I was like, you know, like the
high Christians are much the same.
They're like, we're not
gonna get any better.
That's a relief when you.
Yeah, like I've grown up in this hyper
uh, atheist, hyper-rational world where
we can evolve, our humanity can, things
are basically getting better, you
know, like things will be sorted out.
And then essentially, well,
no, that's Stephen Pinker.
Things are already getting better proper.
Yeah, I've read, I've read Proper
Marxist, like I've read a bit of Pinker.
We are gonna make it better.
Yeah, I've read, I've read a few, couple
of Pinker books and loved them actually.
Well, you know, he was on the island.
Um.
Yeah.
But, uh, the other idea that
Richard Raw talks about is
that God suffers along with us.
Yes, that's right.
And the, that we spoke about it a bit last
week with process, theology process and,
and, uh, but that, that's ground of being.
That's, yeah.
Wow.
That's a God I can believe in Sam.
Well, that's why Chean
came to Earth as an.
As an incarnate.
Okay.
So Krishna incarnated themselves
as Chaitanya manifesting the female
potency in a male body in North India
540 years ago, to basically for God
to incarnate themselves as their own
servant and to suffer along with humans.
Yeah.
Which is what Christ did too.
So this is a very familiar
story and I'm gonna accuse.
Some people in North India of taking some
cues from missionaries and going, let's
refashion Hinduism here a little bit.
Yeah.
In response to some outside threats,
I think that's what was going on.
So I still, yeah.
Get an aversion whenever
I see the word Jesus.
Yeah.
But now that, but you see something
in the idea of God choosing
to suffer alongside humans.
You see something in that.
Well, you know, I'm in, I'm in
suffering with my kids at the moment.
Yes, we're all in suffering.
Ah, yes.
The parent suffers when the child suffers.
Yes.
Yeah.
So I don't see the world at
the moment as a particularly
happy place in a lot of ways.
It's, it's a scary place and
it's unpredictable and Yep.
There's a lot of cruel in that.
Yes.
Horrible things happen, not
just, I'm not talking about
obviously in the bigger world.
Yeah.
But in our little world, it's
a scary place at the moment.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, but there's some solace in the idea
of a God that's trying to help me, but
suffering along with me as opposed to
a God who has forsaken me, who's an
all mighty or a God who doesn't exist.
That's right.
Or a God that's almighty and
yet chooses not to help me.
Yeah.
Or a God that's given my kids epilepsy.
I can't come at that either.
That's right.
Like I don't want that.
God.
That's right.
Like so.
Yeah.
Anyway.
I'm not saying I'm about to
become a Christian either.
I don't think I'm gonna
become a Christian.
I don't think I'm gonna become a Buddhist.
I think I'm gonna stick around my
addiction recovery circles and do
the secret stuff that I do there
that I can't talk about on the show.
And I think I'm gonna try and
find the depth there, Sam.
Mm-hmm.
'cause there it's non-denominational.
Mm-hmm.
There you can be open to
Christianity and Buddhism.
And you know, there I might find some
meaning and some sanity, but I, I wanted
to ask you, we should wrap it up soon.
Mm-hmm.
But I wanted to ask you mm-hmm.
You've got a very busy mind.
It's true.
I've never really seen you relax
ever in the 25 years I've known you.
It's No, it's a rare occasion.
Do you ever rest in natural great peace?
Well, this is what I was gonna
say, the thing I've left out, so
I hope I've tried to convey just
like a sliver of my experience of
the power and majesty and, and.
Beauty and terror and, and, and po poetry
of these ideas comes karma and samsara.
That to me, these were not small words.
These were big, big words.
No, that's good.
What you just said then it's really good.
Maybe I haven't absorbed it.
'cause I've been thinking about Yeah.
Catholicism while you're talking about
Well, there's some power and terror
and majesty in some of those ideas too.
Yeah.
I mean, you're going into a room
and there's a guy bleeding out
of his fucking hands on a cross.
Yeah.
And some motherfuckers nailed him to it.
I mean, it's pretty epic.
Like, it's quite intense.
And like the HARs are
also equally intense.
Like did you see that?
Yeah.
And the, did you see that cartoon
I posted on, um, Instagram?
Yeah.
The aliens come down and they see Jesus.
Yeah.
Crucified one alien says to another,
we better get the fuck out outta here.
These people are crazy.
That's right.
That's true.
And that's right.
I, I'm like, to this day I've spent about.
Five minutes of my life
ever thinking about Jesus.
I've just, yeah, the guy does.
It doesn't.
I read the Sermon on the Mountain.
I love what he had to say there, but
I haven't ever eng because you know
there's an exoticism with the Buddhism.
So the Buddhism comes to the west.
Yes.
Through like Alan Watts and Jack
Kerouac and all those figures,
and Thomas Merton in the fifties.
Yeah.
By the time I'm picking up the
beats and I'm reading that, and
Carol acts really into Buddhism,
there's this exoticism and it seems.
Cool.
Yes.
Buddhism has always seemed to
me like a pretty cool religion.
Oh, no, no, no.
You can imagine, you can imagine how
Christianity was feeling when, whereas
Christianity always seems so fucking blah.
You know, just in the background of our,
like there's churches on the corner,
it's cringe, but you never go in there.
Yeah.
It's cringe.
Yeah.
The other week I was outta church
run, dropping center for work and they
invited me into the worship service.
Yeah.
And I went in.
And they started singing
terrible out tune songs.
And I was like, got the fuck
outta there after 30 seconds.
And I went in there with an
open mind, Sam, I was like, oh,
maybe I'll become a Christian.
Well, do you know what the, the
gateway drug for a lot of people
into the Hari's is the food, right?
Yeah.
And for, for a lot of, for, for me, if
there was gonna be a gateway drug into
Christianity, it was gonna be, you know.
Allegory Misre, the music of Thomas
Tallis, you know, these beautiful hymns,
these glorious, like this is massive
choirs, this chi singing to, yeah.
Anyway, I, no, no, a hundred percent
we not hit about Christianity.
See?
No, no, no, no.
That's what I'm saying.
Christianity, when it's done
well, has an incredible vibe.
And the Harry Christner worked
really hard on the vibe, you know?
And Protestantism can sometimes lack vibe.
And then Catholicism is like,
it's a multimedia, you know, like
a stained glass, incense music.
It's like, it's, it's, it's wow.
The rubes with some color and
sound and aroma and it, and, and
Latin and sort of obscurantism.
And guess what?
It's a pretty, it's got something to it.
And I would, I would
love to go to Cambridge.
And have even song and go to
all the little chapels where the
colleges, the college choirs will
sing astonishingly beautiful music.
Oh, I'd like to go to Harlem
and see some of the gospel.
Yeah, and I would like, I
would like to see gospel brass.
I would like to witness a proper revival.
Church experience and, um,
try and fill the spirit in me.
So is, yeah.
Are you, are you solidly as
religion at its best, is life
affirming and a, a place of great
support and fellowship and comfort?
At its worst, it tells you your shit.
Yeah.
Where are you at the moment on the scale
from agnostic to atheist to believer?
'cause you're often, you, you often
get a bit stuck sitting on the fence.
Mm.
Well, I and I, I think because
if I got raised with the ideas
of karma and Samsara, yeah,
I think they would sit there.
'cause you know, every Catholic is
a lapsed Catholic who's worried that
they're getting in trouble with God.
Yeah.
Are you worried that, you know,
karma's kicking your ass or something
you've done in the past life is
cursing you or no, that you're on
an infinite ocean of suffering?
Mm, I certainly don't you worry just in
the back of your mind, or three in the
morning, or when No, not especially.
I mean, I think there's a lot
to be said for acknowledging
that life can be difficult.
And, but adopting this posture of the,
the, the, that we're basically completely
and utterly at the mercy, and we just,
we just have to surrender and just take
100% unconditional refuge in the one.
I'm like, well, okay, maybe.
Also, uh, the, the idea that this world
is just an unmitigated shithole, and let's
get out of here as quickly as we can.
Do, you know, down there downstairs
High Street, right, there's some
graffiti and posters over it
now, which I'm okay with because
everything's temporary, right, Joe?
But like, uh, it was just this simple
piece of graffiti, not stylized, just,
just fairly even thickness of lettering.
Nothing fancy.
And it just said in black
on a red brick wall.
Love this world.
Love this world.
Yeah.
And then I just looked
at that so many times.
Yeah, I like that a lot.
I painted a little watercolor of
it and I was like, you know what,
maybe we could call this episode.
Love this World.
I think.
I think that's right.
Okay.
Love one another.
Love this world.
It's like the Beatles said, right?
All you need is love.
Yeah, we've said that before on this show.
Yes.
Yes.
That was the conclusion of all my eight
hours of mental gymnastics on LSD was I
came to the same conclusion as them on
their LSD, which is, all you need is love.
All you need is love all.
You ended up where Bob Marley ended up.
All this fussing and of fighting.
I want to know, Lord, I want to know.
We should really love each other
in peace and harmony and, and you
know, and you, it's true though.
Oh, what's so funny about peace, love, and
understanding what's so funny about it.
That's right.
Yeah, exactly.
Well, I tell you what, it is
very funny when you have peace,
love, and understanding, 'cause
you experience mirth and joy.
It's a wonderful thing.
Yeah.
And, and this is why I say, look,
if sense, love this world, love this
world, love these people around you.
And there's actually a version
of Christianity that I think is
the right one, and I think that's
exactly what it's saying to do.
And not all this stuff about
guilt and fear and sin.
It's like, well, yeah.
The, my understanding of sin, and
I've said this a hundred times on the
pod, and I've listened to theologians
try to explain this, that the real,
to me, the real meaning of sin is
you, you didn't rise to the occasion.
You didn't love another human being.
The way they needed at that time, and that
you may also experience that emptiness in
the relation with others because of that.
And so basically try to be, try to be
loving and forbearing with one another
and you'll receive the same and, and don't
try and hide your shame and don't try and.
Pretend you're perfect.
Don't put yourself above others
and like let's, you know, there's
something very beautiful about that.
And the Harrys were trying to get
at that too a lot of the time.
A sort of humility and fellowship,
which is a beautiful thing.
But on the other hand, relentlessly
focused on trashing this world
and going, this joint is shit.
Let's get outta here.
And I'm like, I just don't wanna look.
Sounds a bit like someone
who wants to move to Mars.
Well, it's, it'd be it, you're right.
It's a hundred percent like that.
And a lot of those hurs that were a
little on the firebrand side, a lot
of them now, uh, they love, uh, uh,
a Bannons, you know, traditionalism
and let's bring back the caste system.
Right.
And let's put women in their place.
Yeah.
Yeah.
They've gone a bit right wing.
They've gone epically right wing.
Yeah.
Right.
Some of these, some of these
people right wing horrors.
Yeah.
They're like, Krishna wants
us to bring back the good old
days and the proper rules.
And it's like, bro, no.
And so.
But it is certainly true that having
this really busy mind of mine has been
quite a tum ult at times, and a torment,
an intolerable torment at other times.
But you know, now.
I'm able to kind of ordinarily
find my consciousness a bit more.
And you chuck a few Western
style medications in sort
the brain department as well.
So I've done some Western science.
Yeah, I've got some Eastern bullshit
and some western science and I've,
and I've combined them and also,
well, what have I started doing
again recently playing music.
And that's a great comfort and it
answers so many needs in the soul
and friendship and all these things.
And I've also experienced profound
exhaustion and rediscovered the
meaning of beat, you know, Jack
Moriarty, the glorious elevated Wow.
And, and this state of like letting go
of the distinctions between things and
all of that until you realize No, no, no.
I now have to put the distinctions
between things back together.
'cause I'll need to be at work tomorrow
maintaining distinctions between things.
As Jeremy, as Mark says to Jeremy,
you know, in, in peep show, you
know, sometimes we need the boxes.
Sometimes people need
to be in compartments.
and so that's true.
And so just to just, but I'm more content
sitting with the like, okay, I can have
peace, love, and mung beans at times and
I can have, uh, just do your job best
you can other times, and maybe I can
bring the two together a little bit, but.
I don't want to live in that sort of
like, yes, I have the neurotic mind.
It gets run down and
exhausted by its own action.
Right.
And the only thing to do is to
just let it beat you and just know
when you're beaten and go to sleep.
Right?
Yeah.
And to, to me, this is a poem
about knowing when to quit and
just, just, ah, but you rest in
natural, great peace in meditation.
You don't fall asleep.
That's right.
That's the difference.
So it, so you do need sleep in
order to be able to meditate.
Well, is one thing I've heard.
But, but that also you need to cultivate
consciously the ability to let go
of thoughts as they arise and Yeah.
And that's the, that's the key
awareness is the sky and the thoughts
are just clouds passing through.
I think that's true.
Chat, GPT says that to me every day.
'cause I told it once that
that's what I wanted to believe.
So it reminds me about that.
All the time.
Yeah.
And so I think this is it.
It tells you, uh, look, and
it's good to have the reminder.
That's why people, we were told to go
to church every week get the reminder.
Yeah.
But like the, it's, it's like, I think
this is just a very, I think it's a nice,
powerful piece of poetry about how your,
your mind is a cause of a lot of problems
and not a lot of solution to many things.
And, and that you just, you might
have to just get exhausted by it.
And surrender and try to, try to actually
develop peace within, uh, that's really,
it's just a, it's just a call to like
attend to that and it's a song of praise
for like a process that has done so
much to help this person and others.
Hmm.
So very good.
I think we should leave it there, Sam.
Yeah.
Thanks for having me in
your, your apartment.
You, its rainy afternoon.
Thanks for being here.
It's been great.
It's nice here.
All right.
See you, mate.
All right.
See ya.
