The Ten Thousand Things

hello, and welcome to the 10,000 Things.

I'm Sam Ellis.

I'm Joe Low Today on the
show, another quote from.

Eckhart from the power of now.

If you cannot be at ease with yourself
when you are alone, you will seek a

relationship to cover up your unease.

You can be sure that the unease will
then reappear in some other form within

the relationship, and you will probably
hold your partner responsible for it.

Hmm.

So I wanted to, I read that when
I was rereading for the hundredth

time, the Power of Now, and I wanted.

Mm.

That to lead us into a broader discussion
of what I'm calling solitude versus

loneliness, Sam, you know, words, could
you define solitude for our audience?

Okay.

My understanding is just the
literal state of being alone.

Versus loneliness, which is
a description of a feeling.

Isn't solitude, Ples kind of pleasurable?

Yeah.

So I was gonna say the, just the
simplest denotation of the term

is just that state of not being
in company with others, right?

But it has resonances or connotations
such as an enjoyable peace and refuge or.

Uh, you know, a quiet, a
cottage on the mos, right?

That's right.

You've gone away to the Dandenongs
and you've got yourself an Airbnb

and you're writing your novel
and you're, you're writing your

novel and the fire's crackling.

That's solitude.

Yes.

As opposed to you wake up and it's a
Sunday morning and you're completely

on your own and you feel like no one
cares and you can't reach anyone.

Yeah.

That's loneliness.

So I do wanna talk about the context
is I'm completely alone at the

moment, as in I don't have a partner.

And that quote Yeah.

Is saying, if I can't be okay, if I
can't turn my loneliness into solitude,

then there's no point even looking for
a partner because I'll just be trying to

cover up the cracks of my loneliness and
then they'll, the cracks will come through

and they'll ruin that relationship.

So what I'm saying, what I'm
asking you Sam, is can you help

me find a way to solitude that is.

You know, bearable before, while
I'm in this interregnum period.

In between relationships, can I
make peace with being on my own?

There you go.

That's what I'm throwing out there.

Great.

Just a small task, and of course,
eminently achievable in the next hour.

So we can do it.

We can do it.

Well, what I'll say is
this, how much do you.

Well, how seriously do you take the,
the quote in the first place, as you

know, does it reflect reality entirely?

You think?

Uh, I tend to, with things that
I'm reading that's nonfiction,

spiritual kind of texts, yeah.

I tend to, um, treat them as if they
know exactly what they're talking about.

And when I had a therapist, the therapist
would say, I really wish you'd take

what I was saying a bit more with a
grain of salt, because I would just.

Make out like she was a
hundred percent correct.

So I'm probably the opposite of you
probably is quite critical, but I

just swallowed that quote whole and
the broader book about the power of

now, about the per the importance
of being in the present moment.

I really swallow it quite
whole and agree with it all.

Well, I think there's a ton of
stuff in that book that I think

there's a ton of stuff in that
book that rises to the level of.

At least, you know, true enough
for working purposes, right?

Yeah.

So, you know, we can take
statements provisionally.

We don't have to hold them to be true
now and forever, but what we can do is

recognize that something has resonated
with us and that it appears truthful,

that it appears to like fit with our
experience, which is the, you know,

to, to some degree the best we can do.

Personally.

I do believe there is something resembling
an objective reality out there, right?

But what we tend to experience it through
language and through sensory perception

and that sort of thing, which all of
which have been all demonstrated countless

times to be somewhat unreliable things.

Right?

And one of the unreliable
feelings we have is loneliness,

but it is a marker of something.

It points to something.

And so I, I'm pretty
satisfied with the quote.

I, I do feel that.

If you get into, well, even for that
matter, a friendship or having children or

a, or a romantic partnership even without
children, that you are nonetheless.

Uh, expecting something.

things you've assumed are okay to expect.

Things that have you maybe you've
been told are okay to expect.

So, yeah.

And then there's other things
that you don't even know

you're expecting from somebody.

So, yeah.

I mean to, and are those things
reasonable to clarify in my experience

when I'm with my kids, I'm not
lonely when I'm with my friends.

That was my next question.

Yeah.

When I'm with my friends,
I'm not lonely, and the last

month or two I've been really.

Uh, digging into my friendships and
reconnecting with people and inviting

myself around to people's houses and
having a cuppa and going for a walk.

And I've really been quite successful
in re-energizing the friendships

that I have and even starting some
new ones or, uh, turning, uh, old

connections into new friendships.

And I'm, I'm, I'm
thriving with that stuff.

but to, to paint a broader context,
I'm an only child and I've known.

Aloneness my whole life.

Mm-hmm.

And I've often maybe most of the
time experienced that as loneliness.

And you know, you're
from a pretty big family.

I don't think you could conceive
of the amount of time I was alone.

Yeah, no.

As a small child.

Yeah.

You know?

No, that's right.

And I can tell you this for sure,
that there were times when I was in

the family home with, you know, well
at times, one other sibling, uh.

Well, you know, my living
memories don't really go back.

Prior to having, you know, a sibling,
I don't really remember being

an only child, but I kind of do.

I kind of do a little bit, but
there was nearly always two or

three or four others around, plus
one or two parents plus friends of.

Siblings plus neighborhood kids, like
it felt like it was impossible to

get a moment to yourself, like, yeah,
so you might prize solitude, do you?

Yeah, and that's right.

And when I was in boarding school as well,
there were very few moments to yourself.

And I would go and seek them out.

You know, it's like, grab
a book and climb a tree.

Like I know it is like such a
cliche, but I did that many times.

Uh, leaving aside, hang on,
you'd read the book in the tree?

Yeah.

Like if it was a nice, it was a nice
day and we didn't have that much

time off from like school and chores
and ritual, you know, religious

because it was a ha Krishna Yeah.

So boarding school for new listeners.

Yeah.

So it was, it was a thoroughly.

Religious institution through and
through, but it also was fulfilling

its duty to like give us, you know, the
Western curriculum in full, you know,

all audited by the state government.

'cause you have to, to
get the funding right.

And.

When we went to high school, like
a state school after this, after

a series of high schools, our
academic standards were excellent.

Where there was a gap between us and
our peers was just culturally and

like the kind of the way we talked and
lots of things, but it was what I'm

painting of a picture of a childhood
that was both idyllic at times.

Books in trees, always friends
around, uh, and always lots to do.

Healthy physical activities, chores,
et cetera, but also, uh, some

rough stuff that went on, right?

So the, and that some of this is
covered in the earlier episodes,

corporal punishment and you know,
the violence between students of

course, which a somewhat normal
part of school in the eighties.

But I really treasured the time I
had alone because there was nearly

always someone in the dorm room or
like, you can't even have a shower

by yourself in boarding school.

'cause it's like you're doing it
at the same time as everybody else.

And like just to read a fucking
book by yourself was like.

A privilege and also like, um,
you don't kind of don't wanna get

caught sitting around 'cause someone
will find something for you to do.

Mm.

You know, like idle hands,
the devil's work, et cetera.

Um, and then when at home
from boarding school, yeah.

Again, there was nearly
always kids around.

A lot was always noise.

And I would get a bit
annoyed with it at times.

And what would I do?

so I've given you.

A character from pa, maybe an
Enid Blyton book or Anne of Green

Gables up in a tree reading a book.

I'll give you a character from, uh,
Jane Austen or Emily Bronte, uh,

or, you know, w Weathering Heights.

I would, uh, leave the house and sometimes
no matter what the weather conditions and

go for a long ramble in the hills around.

The place.

Oh, wow.

That is very weathering heights.

Yeah.

And you know, maybe take a book
and a snack with me and yeah.

This is solitude from a young
age, solitude in a positive life.

Yeah.

I experienced it that way.

And then after a few hours of that, maybe
half a day, maybe a whole day, I'd be

quite happy to go and have some company.

And I'd appreciate the company of those
people again, who were just getting on my

nerves, you know, only a few hours before.

Mm.

See, I, yeah, as a, as an only child, I.

It just went deep into my imagination.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I can see you in your room reading ro dah.

Sure.

So Ro dah was my ultimate.

Well, he's pretty good.

Oh, he's unsurpassed.

Yeah.

As far as I'm concerned.

Yeah.

but yeah, reading ro dah,
going deep into my imagin now,

my imagination was powerful.

Yeah.

And as a 45-year-old, it caused
me, causes me a lot of problems.

Your imagination is powerful, but people
take that as a positive, but it is not.

Exclusively a positive to
have a powerful imagination.

Wow.

You powerful.

You can be plagued by
dark thoughts and yeah.

A powerful imagination combined
with bipolar disorder, uh, is

challenging to say the least.

But yeah, maybe I should
have channeled it.

I tried to be a filmmaker.

Maybe I should have channeled it more.

Um, but I'm here talking to
you, so you know, we're putting

something out into the world.

Yeah.

And, um, yeah, but I, so I,
what I'm trying to say is by

the time I became an adult.

I never really wanted to be alone.

Yeah.

And, and I, when I got to know you,
you're like sort of not long out

of the family home, maybe just a
year in a share house or something.

You know, you're in the Bachelor of
Creative Arts, you've got loads of

friends, you're very sort of man about
campus, pretty, you know, engaged

with this, that, and the other.

Um, you know, doing
stuff, projects and Yeah.

Playing sport and making things.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I had, I always had hundreds of friends.

Always and lots of occupations.

Yeah.

I had hundreds of friends.

I would pull people together
to make films and Yeah.

Yeah.

I was always playing cricket and I,
you know, I, that's how I dealt with

the fact that I didn't wanna be alone
is to surround myself with hundreds

of friends, plus ideally a girlfriend.

Of course.

Yeah.

But see, back then, the girlfriend.

Thing was much less of a factor.

Mm.

Because there was just so much,
there's so many house parties

every weekend and there's so
much socializing during the week.

And I could pop around to another
friend's house on a Sunday abo and

there'd be 10 people there, you know,
uh, rehashing the night before Totally.

When you were an under, it was
almost like, it was almost like,

it was great having a girlfriend.

And I, like, I lived with mine for most
of my uni years, but it was also like.

Well, this can get a lit in the way
a little bit of, yeah, there's so

much, and I, I don't mean of like
spreading your wild o wild oats,

I just mean of just, just being
absolutely rabidly social like I was.

Yeah, that's me too.

So that's turned into,
oh, things got dark.

You know, we bought a house out
in the suburbs and I became a

practicing alcoholic and yeah, I
drank every night in isolation.

Even though I was surrounded by
two kids and a partner, I drank

myself into isolation for years.

and I'm, I'm trying to rebuild my life.

I mean, 10 years, nearly 10 years without
a drink, but I'm still trying to rebuild

that few years of isolation out in the
suburbs and nearly 10 years without

like a long term committed relationship.

Like, yeah.

And yeah, nothing that's
gone past six months.

Relationship wise in, uh, in 10 years.

So theory, in theory in this
time, you've been rewired To

a large degree, I would say.

Yeah.

But I'm, what I'm saying is I need
to accept Eckhart's quote, which

is I just need to completely make
my peace with being on my own.

And then if I meet someone and
that person can be a bonus, but

at the moment they'll still be.

A huge balm to this gaping wound of
aloneness and loneliness that I have.

And that's not good.

'cause it creates clinging, the Buddhist
would call it probably clinging.

Yes.

It creates attachment.

Yes.

Again, the Buddhist would
probably use that phrase.

Yes.

And And it gives women the ick
'cause they're like, oh god, this

guy's so desperate, you know?

Well, I would say it didn't give you the
ick when you encountered that in partners.

Yeah, sure.

I'm not, yeah, I'm not justifying it.

I'm saying I No, no, no.

I know you're not, but what I'm
saying is what was your reaction to

having a partner that was like that?

Yeah, we all pushed them away.

Don't we always push the clingy ones away?

Um, yeah.

That's just a natural reaction.

But it was considered especially
egregious in a bloke to be like that.

Yeah.

It was almost considered normal,
I would say 20, 25 years ago,

the clingy girlfriend was
almost like, that's what it is.

Yeah.

Well, if you think about
Wayne's World, yeah.

I already broke up with
you six months ago, Stacey.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't even own a gun,
let alone many guns.

An entire Yeah, that would
necessitate an entire gun rack.

It's a great, it's a great quote.

Oh no, it's Stacey.

She's pulling me in with her tractor beam.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That was the ultimate clingy girlfriend
depiction in a nineties movie.

Um, yeah.

And every, we all thought it was funny,
but I'm basically, and you know what, I've

Stacey, you, I've been Stacey since then.

I've always thought I was Wayne,
but it turns out I was Stacey, bro.

You were Stacey all along.

Yeah.

And this, and this is the thing about,
I'm not gonna say it's a misogynist trope,

but it was a little, and, but I don't
think Mike Myers intended it that way.

I think it was just, he was
just playing it for laughs.

Right?

Yeah.

Any, any darkness in that is, oh, please
don't read into Wayne's World too much.

No, but what I will say is this.

That like all my experience of
masculine projections about the

other gender when you're operating
in a binary framework is it's nearly

always a reflection of your own shit.

Yeah.

And this is a classic example.

It's like, uh, yucky, the clingy
girlfriend, but what I now know about

attachment theory and trauma and blah
blah blah and all this stuff, and

or just Alan Bottons latest quote
in the School of Life, you know?

On YouTube, he's sort of
given up on doing videos.

He just puts text on there, which is fine.

It always, it just reads it in my
head, in his voice anyway, and he was

making a great point on there about,
you know, when you've had a difficult

childhood with attachment problems.

Option one, seek unavailable
partners or intermittently available,

or people that are mean to you.

And option two, find a decent human being.

Uh, who cares for you genuinely?

And then drive them absolutely insane by
being expert at finding fault with them.

And like, getting turned off
by Yeah, pushing them away.

Pushing them away, making them
feel like, what, where did it,

where did, where did I go wrong?

What's wrong with me?

Blah, blah, blah.

Until eventually they recover
some perspective and are

like, it's not me, it's you.

I wish it were otherwise, but we have
to call it a day because this isn't

good for me and it's not good for you.

Uh, it could have been.

You know, I hope you figure it out.

I've had that conversation
a few times now.

Yeah.

And then option three, of course,
which is explain to someone you

are getting close to or, but maybe
even before you get close to them.

Hey, this is what I'm, like, I have
a history of, you know, in my case I

chose, well, I chose a few partners
over the years who were a little bit

unavailable and a little bit careless
with my feelings, and I kind of didn't.

Didn't mind it in some ways because.

That did feel a little bit more
comfortable than the girl who just looked

me in the eyes and be like, I like you.

I think you're a decent person.

I want to go.

And, and I'm just like, oh, yeah.

Terrible.

Terrifying.

Yeah.

Option three, explain your deficiencies.

Yeah.

And say maybe we can work through this.

I think he says in that quote, and
I'll put it in the show notes, but

he, um, says, I have an illness.

I have an illness basically
because my childhood was fucked up.

I push away anyone who's nice to me
and I only go for unavailable people.

And what I wanna work on with you
is this illness that I have, but

I'm really fucked up and yeah.

And I want to try that with
the next person I meet.

For sure.

I wanna as a send them that
little brief article as a really

conscious strategy of like.

There's no guarantees in life anyway.

Even if you're a relatively healthy
person, attachment wise, relationships can

obviously still go wrong, but, and people
can go into them without big attachment

wounds or whatever, but they might have
expectations that just aren't realistic,

like, um, the amount of time that person's
willing to spend hanging out or the amount

of the activities they're willing to do.

So sooner or later there's a negotiation.

Sooner or later you
have to enter into like.

A conscious conversation about what
sort of relationship you, you know,

is gonna work for both people.

So, you know, I think it's not a bad idea.

Trying to have that conversation sooner
and explain your malfunctions if possible.

But first Sam, before I do any
of that, I need to be completely

at peace with being on my own.

Okay.

So here's where I'd have a slight
exception with the quote, right?

So I think it's important that you, yeah,
I do tend to agree with the idea that we.

If we're trying to find wholeness
or whatever, or like I'm.

Oh, okay.

So on one extreme of the spectrum,
we can all agree it's absolutely

not okay to go like, oh, I'm fucked
up and have a great big hole in my

life, and you are gonna fill it.

Right?

So that's, that's clear that
that's, I've done that for 10 years.

Yeah, that's bad.

Doesn't work.

I've probably done that my
whole adult life actually.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Same.

Exactly what was it?

I'm really fucked up.

There's a great big hole inside of me.

Yeah.

You are going to fill it.

You are going to fill it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's like, yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

That pretty much sums up my dating for
25 years, so we can agree that that's.

A not workable B, not the right
thing to do to another human being.

Yeah.

But how to not do that at the
moment feels very, uh, sure.

Challenging to say the least.

But what I wanna do is try and
push you more towards the gray area

here, which is not the clearly,
not the clearly out, right?

There's a lot of talk of green lights
and orange lights and red lights,

which I think and flags, right?

And these things are good to have right?

People probably.

People do need to have red
flags and orange flags, right?

And you need to have them.

We all need to have them.

But there's this gray area of
like, okay, if you take that, this

doctrine about relationships really
seriously, then you might end up

going to the other extreme, which is.

I must more or less be completely
healthy and have no needs whatsoever.

And only then should I enter into a
relationship, which is, well, the way,

which is a bit too far the other way.

Right?

The way Eckhart Toll writes and things.

Yeah, that's exactly what he would say.

Yeah.

I think there's a level of sort of like
he is a very much a basically everything.

All your suffering needs to be serving
your awakening into the present moment.

A full awakening, spiritual awakening.

And, and sure, I can, I can get to that.

Okay, sure.

Everything that happens to you
needs to be serving your awakening.

And if it's not, you know, then
you're fucking it up basically.

And he's very, he's very black.

Well, maybe that's why I keep
rereading him 'cause he's so black

and white and so I know everything.

Plus I know all these theories
that I can't prove, and I'm just

gonna claim that they're true and.

I that appeals to me.

You know, I think that's fine, but
I think we need to sort of identify

an area which is that Okay, two
things can be true at the same time.

The first one being that we need to
be able to supply our own sort of

basic needs to some degree, right?

And not require a ton of
maintenance from others.

Right.

But I can kind of agree with that.

But what's the line between having
sort of no requirements that you

could or would place on anybody else?

And the kind of normal human experience
of like having interrelated needs and

obligations and so on, which is what we
normally encounter in friendships and,

and working relationships and uh, and
family relationships and all of it, right?

So it seems to me he's creating a bit
of a platonic spiritual ideal here,

which is like cool and everything.

How well it serves as a viable model.

Maybe it's an, it's an ideal or
an aspiration to keep in mind, but

what's the messy gray area of like
acceptable in Betweenness here?

So, for example, if a person such me,
for example, I believe that I have

a level of emotional generosity that
I've always had and getting older and

having more resources, more wisdom, more
patience, I think with others and myself.

I don't think I need a partner
to be, to have no emotional

needs, to have no blind spots.

I don't, I don't think I need
them to not need me at all.

I think a little is, you know.

Okay.

So what extent is, okay, so do you
know what that makes me think of?

Yeah.

Um, Chelsea Hotel, Leonard
Cohen, and I need you.

I don't need you all that.

Driving around.

Yeah.

You know, we never did say, I need
you, I don't need you, and all that.

Driving around it's like,
yeah, I can be so needy.

It's like I am needy at, at the
moment I don't have a partner, but

the moment I get one, like all of the
emotional stuff that I try and process.

On my own or with friends,
I'll then immediately want to

try and process it with them.

Hmm.

And, uh, a friend, a male friend
of mine, but then you turn

around and wanna watch the test.

Yeah.

Then I just want to check, once I've
done all my processing, then I want

to check out and watch live sport.

Yeah.

Um mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Anyway, and I, I tend to find women
that are wonderful, really wonderful

to talk to, like about deep stuff.

Yeah.

Like in fact, for sure.

You know, I remember I was
briefly dating a Japanese woman.

And there was just no
depth to the conversation.

And it, it didn't last long at all.

And I don't, I don't know the exact
reason, but she didn't want to

get into any deep conversations.

Okay.

So it wa it wasn't a lack of vocab
or fluency or anything like that?

No, no.

Not at all.

Just a cultural difference
about what you talk about?

Uh, I mean, it's surely that's
the kind of thing that might

change over a, over a long period.

Also, I think that it's possible to
mistake the kind of, when you, when

people like you and me, we can gain.

We can experience like a
level of emotional intimacy

with people like quite, yeah.

Quickly.

And I think there's something to be said
for taking your time with that as well.

Yeah, you're right.

Like, sorry, I mean to explain she
was reserved and I didn't know how to,

like basically I want to have a really
intense first date with someone where

they start to tell me all their trauma.

And just go from there.

Yeah.

And just trauma dump.

Sure.

And like get into the full on
childhood shit and Yeah, me too.

I would tend to go with that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So when I come across someone who's
say physically attractive, but doesn't

want to go deep in conversation, I
can't, it just doesn't last long.

I want to confide in someone
and have them confide in me.

What did she wanna talk about?

I'm curious.

Not much.

It was very shallow, superficial, like.

Conversation.

Was she a designer or something?

Was she a Uh, I can't even remember.

It was only a couple of dates.

I think I remember you mentioning them.

She had a wonderful fashion
sense and looked amazing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I was like, wow.

Like you are like the best dressed
woman I've ever gone on a date with.

Amazing.

But then we'd go to talk
and there'd be nothing.

Yeah.

That is rough.

Yeah.

Um, but it was just an example of,
I, I, I tell myself I'm shallow.

But actually when presented with a
really attractive woman who doesn't

have much to say on a date, Shani did.

Yeah.

I'm not that shallow.

I'm actually not.

Yeah.

Well, to make a joke,
Shani is only skin deep.

Yeah.

Something like that.

Like look.

Mic shall only go so far.

Yeah.

So, so in the last 10 years, because
when you're having the heart to heart

right, and you really like swapping
stories and you know, the, everything's

making, everything you're saying
is landing and everything they're

saying is landing and everything
they say, like they, they understand.

They get what I'm saying.

I get what they, it's, it's a wonderful
thing and a per a person with like,

Who's, you know, well, shy of the
10 suddenly seems intensely hot.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Like it, it, it is like a huge, and I
know that it's definitely assisted to lift

my score in the past, and, and I don't
mean to talk about, by the way, shout

out to Lou, pointing out quite rightly
that there was a level of commodified

language going on in the the attraction
episode, which is exactly right now.

I felt like I was doing
that quite consciously in.

A sort of ironic way.

Yeah, ironic.

Like I'm, I'm acknowledging
that you don't actually just

see people as numbers out of 10.

No, I see that.

I see them that way much less as
time goes by, but it was never a

strong thing in me to begin with.

But also it was an, you know, the
fact is we have to acknowledge that

there is a process that's been going
on since at least Marks wrote about.

Economics and the human condition,
which is the commodification of

human beings is like a process that's
been entrained for quite some time.

And we are really on the pointy
end of the commodification of human

people might have been rating other
people out of 10 for attractiveness

since they could count to 10.

Sam.

They might have been doing it since then.

It doesn't mean you should do it.

No, no, I agree.

And that I think they've been doing it
since the invention of marriage markets

like, which is a long, long thing.

What what I'm trying to say is I
don't necessarily think that this.

Disposable and sort of ratings
attitude towards other human

beings is necessarily a new thing.

I just think that the app, the app thing
has turned what relationships were always,

to some degree marketized, but I think
it's just brought it to an extreme.

Yeah, and and I think that
one of the results of it.

Is part of what you are experiencing,
and I wonder how much you are like

this was preexisting make, see, back in
the day, I'd have meet someone great.

Have a deep conversation, hang
out a few times, more and more.

Deep conversation, more and more
hanging out, having a wonderful time.

Then it'd be like, all right, now
we're gonna drive out in the ute.

We're gonna drive out to a salt
lake and we're gonna drop some acid.

Yeah.

And then we'd go really deep on acid
for like 10 hours on a salt lake.

Sure.

And then like, 'cause I was always
trying to get as deep as possible.

Yeah.

To the next level, next level.

And yeah.

In my twenties when I could still
take drugs, I would do that.

And then you'd have this incredible
experience with someone Yeah.

Of like LSD connection and, um, yeah.

So that's the other thing is that
there was always substances up

until I was 35 involved in the
connection, whether it was, yeah.

Few glasses of.

Red wine or Sure.

Or Alice, big Alice d trip or whatever.

Well, weed that can, that can, yeah.

And so for the last 10
years, it hasn't been that.

Um, yeah.

And, but you are pretty good at getting
to the, the like altered consciousness

anyway and like accessing the circuitry.

And I am too, and I can trip on sober
conversations with people and like

really my head's doing fun things.

Right.

But, but what I've also learned
is that I really, I really value.

Uh, feeling grounded around people and
it's not, it's difficult for me to do

and people that can help me a little
bit with that or that, where I find it

easier to stay grounded around them.

Do you, I value that.

Do you find these podcast
conversations grounding?

Yeah.

How do you find the podcast
conversation compared to the chat

we have before we do the show?

Which one's more grounding?

Uh, about the same because
like one is more private.

Not that there's a ton we would say
there, we wouldn't say here, but yeah.

Maybe to our, uh, detriment.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm probably, I'm probably, I'm
interested in having less and less

stuff that I won't talk about.

So like, yeah, little by
little, but when, but when it.

No, it's the same kind of thing
because there's a ritual around it.

Like I'm no longer, yeah, I'm
no longer setting up the gear.

I'm no longer like making tea or making
sure the space is appropriate because

I find these chats extremely cathartic.

Yeah.

It's like the best version of a chat
with a friend because I'm having to

think clearly 'cause I'm being recorded
instead of my wooly like distracted and

I can't do anything else at the same
time, like, yes, we're not on our phones.

It's ritualized, it's set aside.

It's a sacred space.

It's a lot closer to the
therapy door than Yeah.

Yeah, you're right.

You're right.

So he is grounding in that way.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

And so it, it greatly reduces
my sense of loneliness.

Yes.

Um, yes, but like,
yeah, exactly the irony.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, for me it makes me
think of another of a Neil Young

Line from a song, well I had an
Elis Morisset line, so perfect.

Which is, I'll do mine first,
which is I need a crowd of people,

but I can't face him day to day.

Oh shit.

I thought I knew Neil pretty well,
but, so that always resonated with

me and like I noticed at work.

Um, I was in a shared office
with like 10 other people.

Mm-hmm.

And then this opportunity came up to get
my own little office and I jumped at that.

And then they, yeah.

Um, I would've, I did it for a
few months and I was isolated.

It's funny though, isn't it, with
my childhood being an only child

and being so lonely, you'd think
I'd always wanna be around people,

but other people are so annoying.

Yeah.

And I'm annoying and I become
conscious of how I'm, and how I'm being

annoying and that gets on my nerves.

And then I did the few months
in the shared office and then.

Sorry.

I did the, about a year in a
share office, a few months in a

solo office and then back, went
back to the floor two weeks ago.

They put me back in the shared office
and the first day I could have like, did

they vic you from your private office?

I could've like tore my own hair
out, just overhearing someone's

conversation that I didn't need to hear.

Noise canceling.

Oh, like.

I, but it's, I need a crowd of
people, as in I'm not okay on my

own, but I can't face 'em day to
day, as in people are so annoying.

Do you think, well, that is a great lyric.

What song is it from?

It it goes on to say, get Out Town.

Think.

Ah, get Out Town.

Oh, is it from like on
the Beach or something?

Yeah, from On the Beach.

Yeah.

But I couldn't tell you the exact track.

Oh, I'm just glad I was
able to guess the album.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That'll do me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's good.

Yeah, it's.

Okay.

So to give people context, Neil is a bit
of a sense of introspective lad, isn't he?

Yeah, he is.

Yeah.

He's shaky as his biography with title.

He has, uh, what was his epilepsy?

He had epilepsy.

Yep.

Yeah, like some other
people we know and he.

I think he spent a lot of time
on his own and I, but as you

say, he was more comfortable
around others while being alone.

And I know that, well, he also
wrote the song, A Man Needs a Maid.

A Man Needs a Maid About, it's
just someone to keep my house

clean, cook my meals, and go away.

Yeah.

Which is a real.

It's either a real head scratcher of
a song that you've gotta do a bit of

work with, or it's just plain not cool.

But either way, it's really, it
was the sixties, it was the six,

uh, early seventies, but yeah, no,
I think that was sixties harvest.

No.

Harvest was like 72, wasn't it?

72, was it?

Yeah.

Okay.

Well anyways, but the point is Neil, he
was married to Peggy for a long time.

They divorced only the last few years and.

I think he, put it this way, when I
go down to Cafe Flow and sit with my

surface and get a bit of work done,
or some just do a bit of riding or, or

just, just waste time on the internet
in the company of others, I so happy.

I feel great.

I feel perfect like no needs.

But what?

But what about if you wake up in your
bed and stay in your bed on your phone?

How do you feel then?

Awful.

Yeah.

I, I cannot do that.

Yeah.

So I need to have something in my
calendar for that day, even if it's

drive to the beach, go for a walk.

Yeah.

I've started, if I wake up and there's
nothing on my agenda, I spiral so quickly.

Okay.

My mental health just nose dives.

I, I don't, but I will say
I have, I've done four, five

mornings on the phone for about.

10 to 20 the last few morning.

And I have gotten thoroughly annoyed
with myself more enough to overcome

the compulsion and just, yeah, like,
ugh, I'm pissing myself off right now.

'cause the truth is I
don't have nothing to do.

Like, and maybe part of this is
easier for me because I've got,

my children are a bit younger.

we both work a similar schedule.

I'm talking about Saturdays and Sundays
only, but this is the thing on Saturday,

Saturdays and Sundays when I don't
have my kids, so once a fortnight.

So on Saturdays and Sundays I've got
like two usually too much to do and it

often involves being around other people.

So I get.

You know, like if there's sport
or something like incidental

socialization there and then usually
by the end of Saturday I'm like

very happy to be by myself and you
know, and then see that phrase.

Very happy to be by myself.

Yeah.

I don't think I've ever uttered that.

I used to be like it a lot less.

I'll say that because.

Like I'd kind of in a way, wish the 20,
my twenties never ended and the house

parties never stopped and Oh, I've, but
ironic, ironically, back in the day I

was over the house parties and the drugs.

Yeah.

And decided to have it got
boring a kid at 28, 29.

Yeah.

Decided to have a kid because I was
like, yeah, I've seen this whole scene.

I was been repeated however many times.

I was bored with it by exactly
the same age, but I persisted

for for a few more years.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You sat around a fire at a
house party talking shit.

One time I was bored with it by 25.

Yeah, it got repetitive, but
at least it was an option.

Now there's no option for a house party.

No.

We've discussed this before.

It's all dead and gone and there's,
we've discussed whether on the show,

whether there was secret dinner
parties we weren't getting invited to.

Probably not, but I'm convinced
there's no secret dinner parties.

There's very few anyway.

And we put it this way the other day.

Right.

Someone suggest like, uh,
I think it was my mate.

Benedict Sibley maybe, but he was like,
oh, you know, we'll get you this little

science, art, art room table here.

Four chairs.

Perfect.

It's just enough you can, you know, you
can put on a pot of soup, you know, you.

Some fresh, some good fresh bread.

You know, maybe a little dessert.

Dinner parties.

Doesn't have to be a big deal.

Sam, where's this?

In your apartment?

Yeah, just right here in the apartment.

Oh, yeah.

'cause that's, I was
gonna ask you about that.

So you've got your own place now?

Mm-hmm.

How is it loneliness or solitude?

Solitude.

The only time it's loneliness is when.

There's something that'ss quite specific.

Usually that's troubling me.

Mm.

Like I've been put off by something.

Uh, and, or there's like a, you
know, there's a, there's a little

something that needs dealing with, you
know, with another person or there's

something I'm procrastinating, I'll
feel lonely then sometimes interesting.

But basically the second I take
action, it just disappears.

And then the other thing is,
Sometimes when there's not a

particular thing to do or take action
and whatever, then it can hit me.

Right?

But it doesn't hang around for that
long, I find, um, although I have

jumped on the phone with people, um,
and had some like, oh, phone chats.

Yeah, I've had some phones.

Old school.

Yeah, old school.

Bringing it back.

Bringing it back.

What do you just call 'em?

You text them first.

Maybe a text first.

Yeah.

You gotta do the text first these days,
or they think it's an emergency, but

I ju No, but I just, I just do the
ring and just hang up after a couple.

So it's like, it's not like no
one's in hospital or anything.

It's just like, ring, ring,
ring, ring, eh, hang up.

Yeah.

They'll get me if they, if they want,
uh, I do, I just feel like I just

send the bat signal and people, people
take it up about 70% of the time.

Yeah.

And when they don't, I
don't find myself hanging.

I'm just like, yeah, it's cool.

Do you pace the apartment
while you're on the phone?

Yeah, you gotta pace, right?

Gotta pace.

I'm a lunatic on the phone.

I was thinking though, if you were
lonely, you could always just walk out

and just walk the length of High Street.

I do.

Yeah.

You see, do some people watching?

I do.

Which I, I could probably do in
Footscray too, but I don't Yeah,

there's some good streets near you.

Yeah.

I could walk down Barkley Street.

There's always some interesting
people, but I am antisocial.

Essentially.

I'm antisocial, but I need people.

This is why I always come
to the conclusion that I

need an intimate partner.

City streets are great.

I, I would, I'm not happy in a, in the
small town unless I've got places to

be where I know people are gonna be.

But in a big city like this.

I, I like to just walk around and be
in the company of benevolent strangers.

I love the shit out of it.

I'm a townie through and these, yeah,
I should probably go and sit in more

cafes and bro, it's the greatest.

Yeah.

Like, and, and just, you know, 'cause
I, and I'd kind of prefer it to the

pub as well and where the pub feels
like there's more of an expectation

to be outgoing and like all that.

And I don't always feel like it.

Like the job, my job takes
a lot of my social energy.

This is the thing.

If I was doing an admin job instead
or something, which in some ways

I would prefer, I would probably
have quite a lot more latent.

Yeah, I do quite a lot of interaction
at work with clients and at.

Yeah.

It's why I generally don't
wanna record on a weeknight.

I wanna record on a Sunday when I've
had a day off of social interaction.

Yeah.

And then I freshen up on a
Sunday and I'm ready to talk.

But yeah.

Yeah.

You've had had to, tonight we're
here on a weeknight because

we've, it's had to squeeze it in.

It's unusual.

Yeah.

Let, let us know whether the, the,
the spiritual alignment of Joe

after work is satisfactory or not.

Listeners.

Yeah.

It's um, mm.

But see, I have, I'm no
good in the mornings.

The first few hours of the
day, I'm basically, oh no.

I love to be alone in the morning.

Yeah, yeah.

But I really look forward to no one
bothering me, but I've lined it up, so

I often have clients at 9:00 AM Yeah.

And I, they help me.

They get me outta myself.

So, yeah, like my client this morning, we
went for a kick of the footy and it get,

it got me outta my own shit, you know?

Um, and I've gotta say, people are good
at getting you out of your own shit.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Especially when their lives
are usually harder than mine.

Yeah.

Um, big, big time, you know, so, and I
can have a whinge about my life, which

is sort of appropriate for my job Yeah.

As a peer support worker.

Yeah.

Um, but then their whinge is usually
often worse, so then I feel better.

Yes.

You know?

Yes.

Um, so yeah, I think it's, it's, um.

Yeah, that job is kind of, can
be kind of therapeutic, but it

drains the other people do drain
some energy outta me, of course.

And it's possible to feel socially
drained and lonely at the same time.

I've definitely experienced that, but I
will say within the context of, you know,

marriage and two kids and in the same
house that I felt lonely there more often.

Um, but even then I was getting.

The, I was getting probably the
writer, the writer, managed solitude.

Not usually too much loneliness.

And so, yeah, I mean, I lived,
I've lived on my own for 10 years.

so none of those women I've dated in the
last 10 years have I cohabitated with.

Yeah.

But the loneliest I've ever felt was.

Hm.

Um, while still married.

Yeah.

Partner and two kids and
just drunk on the couch.

Yeah.

The worst like that I can.

And drunk on the couch every night.

Yeah.

That was the loneliest I've ever been.

Um, I'm less lonely than that now, even
on a Sunday morning with nothing to do.

This was my question.

You know, obviously the Kris
Christofferson song is, uh,

Chris Kristofferson's song Sunday
Morning Coming Down is, it's a

profound song about loneliness.

Um.

And that one hit me hard when I, on
Mondays in Geelong, when the pub was shut.

'cause I worked there six days a
week and yeah, Mondays were weird

and I was sleeping alone in a big
empty backpackers up top of the pub.

And yeah, my girlfriend
was in India and you know.

Yeah, of course she was.

And I was around people all the time
until suddenly total people drought

on Monday because it was new again,
because it was not, of course she

was, and 'cause it was not my town.

I didn't really have, she was flitting
through a market in Marrakesh to

quote you from the last episode.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

Maybe somewhere in Tanger.

Yeah.

And you were writing a brilliant
song to her and Yeah, I actually

did write some good ones Yeah.

In that time.

But, um, oh, not the, that's
the perfect girlfriend is the

girlfriend who's not there.

Oh, of course the, the perfect object.

We talked about this with Dylan,
but yeah, the, the, the, the

perfect object of, of projection.

And so this is what I'll say, right?

You're not struggling that much
in terms of balancing the personal

needs and the needs of others, uh,
and keeping things relatively tidy

in your friendships and so forth.

So I'm not seeing a whole lot of
pathological behavior there, right?

So, so what I begin to think about
is that this, this, I'm not sure.

Yes, there's a separate issue of like
difficult feelings you experience

when alone that you find easier to
palliate in the company of others.

Right.

So there's that.

It's nice to wake up in a
bed and someone else's bare.

Yeah, it can be.

But that's all I'm saying.

Sure.

I get it.

And then, but then there's this other
piece which is, so you are able to be.

Y you know, be around friends, it's,
it's successful for the most part.

You're able to make plans,
initiate plans, carry them out.

Um, you are not doing a thing, which
a lot of people are doing apparently

at the moment, which is making plans
and then flaking on them constantly.

You're not doing that,
so sounds like anxiety.

It sounds like social anxiety,
it's anxiety, it's a, it's

attachment stuff, I believe.

Which, and also just exhaustion as well.

Yeah.

The kids are posting on TikTok.

Yes.

I don't have to go to that
thing that I had planned.

Right.

Yeah.

The joy of missing out.

Yeah.

But there's, there's also, part of it
is if you haven't found, if you haven't

found it, if there's a lot, if you feel
like it's work to be around others.

For like, even just for a so-called
joyful social occasion, then may I suggest

your friends are expecting too much of
you, or you are expecting too much of

yourself, or, but like I said, I've gone
hard on re-energizing my friendships

because you're not experiencing that.

Right?

That's what I'm saying, that
the, yeah, I've gone hard on

the last couple of months.

I've like, Hey, um, this
game of football's on, I'm

gonna come to your house.

Uh, I'm gonna bring a bottle of
Coke and just sit on your couch.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, and then
the person is obviously hap

hopefully happy to hear from me.

Yeah.

Um, and then I go around and I find
people alarming, like, um, oh, sure.

Like they've, they've been watching
some crazy shit on YouTube and

they want to talk to me about it.

I'm like, whoa, this is really full on.

But I realized if you're gonna avoid
all the people watching crazy shit on

YouTube, you're gonna have no friends.

Yes.

So I just, I, yes, I have to accept that
people, and sometimes you are the crazy

person who's been watching crazy shit.

Yeah, that's right.

Or I banned myself from
YouTube, but like, yeah.

Yeah.

Um, I have to accept that.

People are gonna have their foibles
and people are gonna have their

anxieties that they wanna share.

And that's part of friendship
is you accept that rather than,

well, that person's weird.

I'm never gonna see them again.

Well, this brings me back full circle
to how perfect and how splendidly happy

in your aloneness do you need to be?

This is the thing perfectly,
according to Eckhart.

Yeah.

Well, so he's asking too much.

This is what I mean.

And then I think, and then
on the other end of the.

Spectrum.

I think what might be troubling some of
these younger people really feeling like

relief when a social occasion is canceled.

They might just genuinely be physically
tired from, you know, having to work

two jobs just to fucking survive in
this fucked up economy, but of society

rather that they might, I think that.

Uh, they might be feeling too much
expectation to be like I often did, to be

like on and to be a certain version of me,
like a shiny like together version of me.

And I think the only difference in wisdom
really between 25 and 45 is that I don't.

I don't feel the need to be as
shiny and as on, and I find it

easier to just be myself and be
real and it's taken a long time.

Um, and that's it.

Yeah.

There were times I felt very lonely,
even though I was the life of the party.

Like that kind of stuff
doesn't hit me so much now.

But the quote I wanted to, to give
you before the trade, you, the

Neil Trade, you Alanis for Neil.

All I need now is intellectual
intercourse, a soul to

dig the hole much deeper.

Remember that one?

I've never heard that one, but
Well, that was you with your like,

Hey, we've dated a few times now
let's do acid on the salt flat.

Yeah.

You are like, you're like,
girl, let's go deeper.

It's like, it's like the, it's the
equivalent of like, let's get out the s

and m gear like on night five, you know?

Yeah.

It's like, well, we need
to go further with this.

Do you think I need to
change that slow, Sam?

No, not necessarily.

I don't think you're probably as pedal
to the metal now as you would be.

Also like, 'cause I could be dating
a very fashionable Japanese woman.

I know.

I mean, it did occur to me.

And also two years in, she
might be like ready to go deep.

Yeah.

I could have waited.

Yeah.

It might be the long game with
some people, you know, talking

cowboy hats, cowboy boots.

Do you know what, just miniskirts.

Maybe have a superficial
girlfriend for six, 12 months.

Try it out.

Mm.

And then you never know.

'cause no one's actually
superficial what I discovered.

Yeah.

I, I dated a couple of people that were.

I thought quite different.

To me, I thought they were like just
sort of, you know, they liked partying,

they liked costumes and outfits and
stuff, and I liked that that stuff too.

So, hey, let's hang out.

But I assumed that I was like the
deeper soul with With more of the head.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that they were a
little more superficial.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I didn't necessarily
lack respect for them.

I'm not making it sound like
I do, but the truth is I was

just like, oh no, no, no, no.

Their skills and preferences and abilities
are like in a slightly different area.

And they were really good at like this
one girl in particular, for example,

was really good at making costumes and
like yeah, she was very intelligent.

So fashion, fashion type people.

Yeah.

And she was very intelligent.

Um.

But we just weren't necessarily interested
in some of the same conversations.

But you know what?

We actually got along quite well.

But then what I did find
out is no, no, no, no.

I wasn't The deeper soul.

No one's a deeper soul than anyone else.

Like everybody's got the same basic needs.

Maybe people are better at
accessing it or expressing it.

Yes.

But like, you know, some people are
more comfortable in that chat, but

a lot of the time what can sound
deep might actually in fact be.

Be shallower than, than it's,
you know, than it seems.

But maybe there's nothing wrong
with that approach anyway.

And like, see, see how it goes.

But, but what you were saying before
about friends and like sometimes people

need to express anxieties and like.

Uh, be weird and, and
you just gotta accept it.

Yeah.

I'm like, sounds like you're
ready for a relationship, Joe.

Well, that the problem is they express
their anxieties and then that triggers

my anxiety, and then I have to go talk to
chat GPT about it, to calm the fuck down.

Okay.

And obviously I, so then I'm hanging
out with a friend, but I'm talking

to chat GPT just to calm down.

Well, obviously I can't just
give you some useless advice.

Dismissive advice, which is Well try
not to make their feelings about you.

Yeah, yeah.

For starters, and like sometimes
it's trauma dumping, but.

If you know how to contain it, right,
it doesn't hit you the same way

and like, that's a sort of skill.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

I could never be a, um, a therapist.

Well, you know, maybe, maybe because
like I get triggered and then I'm

completely distracted once I'm triggered.

No.

Well, the reason I look,
it's going really well.

The friends thing is going really well.

Yeah.

Maybe what you're saying is I could
approach meeting a new partner, like I'm

approaching these friendships Exactly.

Of like, let's, let's
hang out, let's Yeah.

Get to know each other, you know?

Yeah.

I think the number one thing,
I don't think you lack the

skills, the disposition, the, the
generosity of spirit, any of that.

I think you are eminently, uh, like
outfitted with the necessary things.

Like you've, you know, you, I
think you're willing to invest.

And you don't, you're not, you, you
recognize that you're not just here

to get something and, and you're
capable of being honest with, you

know, with yourself about most things.

In other words, you've actually got
a lot of stuff that many people would

wish for and that maybe they don't,
haven't always had with a partner.

And, but, but here's the thing.

I just think the only, it's like, oh,
but, but when it's a romantic, it's

all different and it all fucks up.

Right?

But I think it's coming out of like.

Treating it like a different thing
because what I always find when we're

talking about, you know, intimate
relationships and friendships,

like often having, discussing them
separately, I often find myself going,

I think that's true for intimate,
like for sexual relationships too.

Or we're talking about
sexual relationships.

I often find myself going, I think
that's true for friendships as

well, and, and I've realized that
like for example, my attachment.

Trauma that has, I've realized that 46
has fucking massively impacted my life.

Mm.

And has left some serious, we
did an episode on Attachment Sam,

but I still don't understand it.

Well, we need to go.

I don't, as my friend go back
around as a friend of the show,

Liv said, attachment's great, but
what the fuck do you do about it?

Yeah.

Well, she's absolutely right.

Like, it's great to know that I've
got anxious, avoid attachment, but

what's the practical next step?

And I'll be like, oh, but
it's uh, shit, I don't know.

Well, it's.

It's the, the next practical step
is you, you have sort of, you have a

combination of cognitive and physical
behavioral strategies for, recognizing

ahead of time, reducing, minimizing
where they can't be avoided, et cetera.

And.

Uh, the ability to have actual
conversations because you don't experience

terror as much and the, you know, some
self-awareness, the ability to explain

yourself, so that behavior that can
be mystifying, hurtful, puzzling to

others, you can actually account for it
to some degree and better at avoiding

it and also better at when I feel the.

To withdraw that, I'm able to do
it kindly rather than just all of

a sudden and just disappear and
Oh, I've done that so many times.

Yeah, totally.

Just vanishing on people.

I'm out and I was, I need to talk to you.

I now no longer feel anything
for you, even though Totally.

I was saying all those things like, and I
was never running off with someone else.

I was just running off and it was brutal.

No, I never ran off with
someone else either.

No, no.

Like, like I was like, I need
to be with no one right now.

I woke up at 4:00 AM and
realized I felt nothing for you.

Pretty much despite that deep
month we just had together.

I've realized that you are a human being
with needs that aren't so different

to mine, and I find that intolerable.

Yeah, it was just brutal.

But you know what I realized,
what I was trying to go with this

earlier was I found that these
things happened in friendships too.

And so what I'm saying is some of
the same problems, in fact all the

same stuff, impact relationships and
friendships equally, if we're not

treating them as different things and
like I think we're creating too much of

a compartmentalization in the culture.

Okay.

But also in your own mind, so what
you just said earlier is Right,

approaching these things the same way.

Yeah.

Because you don't know.

Ultimately, whether it's a friendship
or it's gonna be something more intimate

like also, or it can be a friendship with
a sexual dimension, and That's correct.

A relationship or That's right.

Or it's a, or it's a friend,
or it's a friendship that can

sometimes catch you unawares.

And then I'm including with people
that I'm not sexually attracted to

where all, there can be moments of like
extraordinary intimacy that you haven't

experienced necessarily with a partner.

So it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, like.

I think creating separations between
these things is a bit unhelpful.

Right.

So we need to wrap it up, Sam.

Yeah.

But what you're saying is you don't
really love the Eckhart quote.

It's a bit No, I like it.

It's a bit too absolute for you.

No, I think it's right.

I just think beware of like drawing
the wrong conclusion that we have to be

like islands of perfect self-sufficiency
before we go anywhere near other people.

Yeah.

What it's made me reflect on is.

I've got all those coping strategies.

I am 45.

Yeah.

If I wake up on a Sunday and I dunno what
to do, I drive to the beach and go for a

walk and I'm okay an hour later, you know?

So that's my, sounds good.

Um.

Yeah, that's my worst case scenario kind
of thing, is that's how bad it gets is

I'm having a sad guy walk on Williamstown
Beach and I'm sad and lonely, and then

get my heart rate up a little bit, get a
few steps in and I'm feeling a bit better.

Next thing you know, that's my worst case.

That's the worst thing
that ever happens to me.

Yeah.

Back in the day you'd be pacing for hours.

Yeah.

Maybe days, right?

I was the same.

I could find no refuge anywhere.

So I have the coping mechanisms, but I
just don't wanna be coping all the time.

I want to be, yeah.

Not just surviving.

I wanna be thriving, Sam.

A hundred percent.

Well, if you have the fortune
or misfortune to stumble into

another romantic relationship,
can I suggest don't, yeah.

Don't immediately turn all
the needs towards them.

In fact, consciously don't do that.

And it's like, yeah, when and when
you're invited, like it sounds

like I could call you alone in your
apartment and have a phone chat.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So when you are the thing you would
like, Hey, okay, I am gonna get the

girlfriend to help me with this.

It's like, well, maybe she's
not the right person anyway.

Yeah, yeah.

But also spread the load or she's
a good enough person or the right

person, but not the only right person.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Spread the fucking load.

'cause also, but when you, I've
experienced this before where I'm

like, a person has been really
good at meeting my emotional needs.

But they're the main person doing that.

And then it's, oh, it's like, oh shit.

Now I'm depending far
too much on this person.

And that creates a feeling of guilt
and like, and guilt causes avoidance.

Like, you know, now you, no, it
seems so much more obvious to

me than it did when I was 20.

Were, I mean, well, I was a hundred
percent very much a wife guy,

you know, like all through, but.

Uh, then I'd be, I would alternate
that with just like sudden

unexplained disappearances.

'cause I'm like, I just didn't
understand when I needed to be

alone and I didn't understand that
I would've been just as happy having

that conversation with somebody else.

And like I had my unconscious just
had to like, get ahold of me and cause

me to be so uncomfortable before I
would just act on that knowledge.

I dunno if I'd be like that now or not.

Honestly, I, I couldn't say, but
I, I don't think I was necessarily

all that healthier than you when it
came to relationships that there,

my solitude was fine, but when it
came to relationships, I think just

a lot of the same anxieties really.

And so I think, yeah, I mean,
I've kind of tended to date the

craziest, most unstable, most
intense person I could find.

Mm.

Yeah, without naming names.

That was my early twenties
and it was amazing.

Yeah.

Like the highs were so high.

Yeah.

And I've done it since and it's like what?

It's an addiction for
me, like a substance.

And it's also someone who's still
got some problems in their, like

serious problems in their twenties.

It's a way different prospect
to someone who's still got some

serious problems in their forties.

You know what I'm saying?

Like it's, they've probably got like me
coping strategies for those same problems.

Exactly.

So, so the person who was a bit nuts.

At 25 is probably quite fine now, but
if they, if they're still super intense

at like, and up and down and all over
the place at 45 in relationships,

it's like, it's a bit of a lookout.

Yeah.

Okay.

I'll remember that.

But having said that, maybe
there's a wild Absolutely.

Uh, uncontainable person is
even more dysfunctional in

relationships than you that.

Is the absolute right fit for you?

You never know.

It's, it's possible.

Alright, well I wanna go and find her,
Sam, and let's just leave it there and um,

thanks for having me in your apartment.

You're welcome.

See you mate.

See ya.