The Ten Thousand Things

Hello and welcome to the 10,000 things.

My name is Sam Ellis.

I'm Joe Loh.

And uh, today we've got a, a beautiful
quote from Ard to, and we can de

uh, how do we say his damn name?

I say Eckhart to Eckhart
Toll in, uh, America.

I think they say Tole.

Tole.

Yeah.

Eckhart Toll.

Sounds like if he was an Aussie, you'd
call him Eckhart to Eckhart Toll Mate.

Yeah, CRO Croissant.

Yeah.

Yeah, cafe La.

Um, and look, it's a beautiful sounding
quote, but as well, unfortunately we might

agree on this a little bit more than I
thought, but I think it'll still be really

good that it's a beautiful sounding quote,
but how much do we really agree with it?

Mm.

On a scale of one to 10, Joe.

Right now, how much can
you endorse this statement?

Uh, I want to hear you read it,
and I want to have a spontaneous

in the moment reaction to it.

Ooh, that's very, because I, I'm
all over the shop on this one.

Yeah, me too.

I think okay.

Here's the quote behind the sometimes
seemingly random or even chaotic

succession of events in our lives, as
well as in the world, lies concealed the

unfolding of a higher order and purpose.

This is beautifully expressed in
the Zen saying, the snow falls each

flake in its appropriate place.

We can never understand this higher
order through thinking about it, because

whatever we think about is content.

Whereas the higher order emanates from
the formless realm of consciousness,

from universal intelligence, but we
can glimpse it and more than that,

align ourselves with it, which means.

Be conscious participants in the
unfolding of that higher purpose.

And that's from his book, A New Earth.

Mm.

Which was published when?

Uh, dunno exactly.

Early two thousands.

Early two thousands.

Okay.

So one to 10 or zero to 10.

Flat zero flatly rejecting at 10,
completely utterly endorsing it.

Where are you?

Uh, I think I can glimpse a higher
purpose at times, but it's like I

can glimpse a higher purpose when
everything aligns in a way that I like.

Haha.

And this particular spiritual statement,
I'm very jealous of Eckhart told,

I wish I could be this confident.

I, I, I mean, I look,
I, I feel the same way.

I kept the piece of writing because I
found it a beautiful piece of writing.

I really like the zen line
of, uh, the snow falls, each

flake in its appropriate place.

Can't argue with that statement.

Well, you can argue.

Well, that's what we're gonna argue
with is that isn't the snow falling

just completely random chaos?

And isn't it weird spiritual mumbo jumbo
that would put people off a show like this

to say that it falls in its appropriate.

Place.

Yeah.

Okay.

So for starters, I hate
the word appropriate.

It's used a lot in teaching.

It's a very, you know, it's a very
professional context sort of word.

And it's the kind of word I would
struggle to hear, struggle to say.

Struggle to define.

And that's my problem with it, that it's
says everything while saying nothing.

So when we say to a, you know, to somebody
in a situation, well, what you are

saying or doing there is inappropriate.

We haven't actually given them
any information other than

someone, me, perhaps, possibly
everybody doesn't like this.

Or in theory it's not suitable.

You know, it's not the right thing in
the right place, in the right time.

But why, why not?

So appropriateness apropos means
that it goes, that it applies.

I think it's clear what
he's saying though.

I, you don't have to pull apart the
word appropriate, like, but No, but

no, I have to because the snowflake
lands in its appropriate place.

Well, why is the, why is the place that
lands any more appropriate than, so

everything he is saying that everything
is happening exactly how it should.

Yeah, sure.

I get that.

And we can align ourselves
with the purpose.

and that means everything
we see in the news mm-hmm.

Is happening exactly as it should.

And we can be completely at
peace with it, for example.

And that's where I start to struggle.

Mm.

Or that everything happens for a reason.

Mm-hmm.

That, that has been something
that I've kind of heard around

my addiction recovery circles.

And it's kind of the thread
that's unraveling my spirituality.

Mm-hmm.

Because I can't sort of agree with it.

I think there's a lot more randomness and
chaos, even if there is a higher power.

I don't see a lot of guidance towards
justice or, uh, peace or, I, I

don't, I don't see the hand of a.

Of a higher power, an interventionist
God making things Okay.

By the end of the Almighty.

Yeah.

Not seeing it myself at the moment,
I've gotta say, and, and for the people

that are looking around and saying
things in, you know, in the media about

this, something or other is happening
according to God's plan, they're usually

endorsing a bad thing when they say that.

So, yeah.

So it's, it's deeply problematic.

But on the other hand, when I'm in what I
would call a more spiritual state, if I've

had a good meditation session or something
like that, it can seem like things

are in alignment, if that makes sense.

Sure.

And that I'm in alignment
with something greater.

And there's a lot less to worry
about than I thought there was.

So I have these exalted moments.

Mm-hmm.

But I'm really in a spiritual
bind because I, I just can't

believe that everything
happens for a reason.

No, neither can I front him flat flatly.

I'll agree with you.

Now there's layers to this thing.

Lot, a lot, a lot of layers.

And we might be able to endorse it
on some layers and not on others.

Right.

That's what I'm expecting to find here.

But probably less interested
in what he intends by this, but

more like what we can make of it.

But.

I will say like, so before we hit record,
you mentioned that this is the kind of

statement you could have sort of got
behind much more readily six months ago.

Yeah.

Like I said, it's maybe I'm unraveling
and you're having a bit of a

Catholic experience of religion.

Well, I do find the Catholics are
always tortured by the, does God exist?

Doesn't God exist stuff?

Right.

Well they do.

Certainly the stereotype is they
do they do a lot of hand wring for

a lot of reasons, sort of, yeah.

You know, whether it's the guilt they
feel themselves or, or the guilt at

what other Catholics have done or, or
struggle with elements of doctrine.

Because, I mean, not all churches are like
this, but the more established churches,

there is a, there is an expectation
that the followers will basically update

their software whenever the learned elder
or the council of elders or you know,

the Pope or like, you know, whoever's
in the position to make doctrinal.

Clarifications in a particular
church as an exp and I'm including

the ha Krishnas in this, there's
an expectation that everyone just

goes, okay, that's the truth now.

So this new little piece of theology,
or this clarification on this point,

or this rule that we, that now exists
or doesn't exist, that that was

always true and we just all upgrade.

Yeah.

We all, we all just upgrade our firmware
and go, yep, that's what we believe.

Now, did the, that's not
actually how it works.

Did the Harry Christner, you
were raised, didn't believe that

everything happens for a reason?

Yes, but I'll say, to be fair, I, I want
to be what this whole quote makes me.

I, I'm starting to feel intense.

Am I summarizing it properly by saying
everything happens for a reason or

have I not done Eckhart Justice?

I.

You know what?

I don't think that's quite it.

Mm.

But it's sort of good enough, I guess
it's sort of like it's gonna pass the

pub test as like that's probably a
reasonable, because he is saying that we

can't understand it by thinking about it.

So he's saying it's gotta
come from pure consciousness.

Yes.

And so the ha Christians did say
some similar things to that, so,

but this whole thing makes me.

A retreat into quite a sort of, you
know, dare I say, scientific sort of

way of thinking where I'm actually
deeply interested in causality and

why things happen and consequence and
effect and cause and, you know, trying

to get things in the right order.

And of course some causes and
effects don't go in a straight order

and they're a complex interaction.

So it brings to mind physics and,
you know, it brings to mind the

time I've spent with history trying
to make sense of why events went

this way and not another way.

And it brings to mind my experience
of personal relationships and, and

the role of random chance in life
and so many complicated things.

But I'll, I'll say when I, when I get to
like a difficult point, a difficult moment

in life, I often start reasoning backwards
through a chain of cause and effect to try

to understand, oh, well what led to this?

And.

What I find is I can often explain how
things, uh, things have become, maps less

of a mystery to me than they once were.

Mm-hmm.

So I can endorse the statement
on this sort of level.

Yes, there are often reasons.

Now I'm gonna say there's always
reasons and there's a level of chance,

but whether that connects to a higher
purpose or not, I really couldn't say.

I can't say it doesn't,
and I can't say it does.

Yeah.

You know, I'm agnostic, aren't I?

You know, I think, um, but the
higher Christians certainly believed

the left wing types were like, no,
our higher purpose here is to work

together to help, uh, each other
and to help the rest of humanity.

That's sort of the left wing take.

And then there were some people
who were perhaps unknown to

themselves, were basically fascists.

and we're, look, we're
all fascists to a degree.

It's about how well we're able to
deprogram and liberate ourselves

from that kind of thinking.

But there were some people in there
who were very attracted to order

doctrine, hierarchy class people
in their place, roles for genders.

But did both for this, both
sides believe that everything

happened for a reason, sorry.

Or, uh, yeah, I would,
maybe I'm misquoting.

Did both sides believe they believe
that there's a higher purpose?

Yeah, I would say they both do.

Do you think it's a universal spiritual?

I, I think it might be thing to
believe that there's a higher purpose.

So can, so if I am unraveling around,
I can't believe there's a higher

purpose to the world and my life, then
am I going back to being an atheist?

Am I now set on a path?

Because I can't come at like.

When I, when I wrote this, I can
actually help you out with that one.

But when I wrote this quote down,
it was because I found it really

beautiful and I was kind of vibing
with it, and I'm like, yeah, man.

Yeah, it felt good.

Felt good.

Higher purpose, man.

I love that.

Sounds great.

Yeah.

And that, that line,
what's the line about?

You can't think about it.

You've gotta know it from, okay.

Yeah.

So we can never understand this higher
order through thinking about it because

whatever we think about is content.

Whereas the higher order emanates from
the formless realm of consciousness,

from the formless realm of consciousness.

Mm.

See that's what I've been tapping into.

It's, yeah.

Yeah.

It's interesting with meditation.

Mm-hmm.

So I was like, yes, I'm.

Yes, I probably can tap into a
higher order, but I can never

come out of meditation and
explain to you what just happened.

Yeah.

Because I'm back in the world
of content and thinking.

Mm-hmm.

So I'm having these kind of trippy
experiences even though I've put down

drugs and alcohol, I'm having these
quite trippy experiences by meditating.

Well, and then at the end of
meditating, you're back in the

mundane world of cause and effect.

Exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

Mundane cause and effect
versus this other thing.

Cosmic cause and effect.

Yes.

That I'm tapping into.

Yeah.

But yeah, but see this is the thing
is I read and reread Eckhart to.

Mm-hmm.

But if I can't believe this part of
Eckhart told, then this is the rest

of the power of now and and new Earth.

Does it all start to unravel because.

Is it my old atheist programming kicking
in after 10 years of spirituality?

because I spent a lot of that
time, I stopped believing that

coincidences were just coincidences
in my addiction recovery.

yeah.

Yeah.

And, uh, I had the strangest experience.

Sam, do you still feel like
coincidences are not just coincidences?

Like do you still anyway, before
you get to the experience?

Well, there's a couple of parts to this.

Like, I was going to, uh, at
about 18 months sober, I was

going to pick up a drink.

Okay.

I decided I was gonna go
into a bottle shop, dangerous

moment, and buy a six pack.

Oof.

I'd been to a job interview for a
job, which would've been sitting next

to a train line that was shut down.

Waiting in case a train came, but there
was never gonna be a train that came

because the line was shut down for works.

And I would've had to sit next to that
train line all night on the miraculous

off chance that a train came and then I
could alert people further down the line.

That was the job.

Okay.

I went for this job 'cause
the film industry was quiet.

Mm-hmm.

I did the interview and they said, how
much of a priority would the job be?

And I said, well, after my kids,
it'd been my main priority.

Didn't get the job.

Yeah.

So I had to make the trains that
weren't coming my main priority.

I fucked up the interview basically.

So I knew I'd fucked up the interview.

I didn't know how I was gonna pay my rent.

I was driving home, it was
like 11 in the morning.

Beautiful sunny day in Preston.

I pulled into Woolworths there.

I've been doing addiction recovery,
12 step stuff for a year and a half.

I was trying to have a, a spiritual
experience with a higher power.

I sat in the car and I said,
God, if you're up there.

Or wherever you are.

Uh, I'm about to go and buy a six pack
and then I'm gonna drink it, and then I

don't know what I'm gonna do after that.

If you actually exist,
please give me a sign Yeah.

That you exist and I shouldn't drink.

And then I walked into the supermarket.

You you surrendered control.

Yeah, I surrendered control.

I walked into the supermarket.

It was a big supermarket.

There was like 20 aisles.

And at the end was a bottle shop.

And I started walking along the aisles
and I got to the fourth last aisle

and someone from AA was there and they
looked up and they made eye contact with

me and I made eye contact with them.

And I turned around and I walked out.

I asked God for a sign.

A sign was given, and I
haven't had a drink since.

And that's coming up on
10 years without a drink.

And that was at the 18 month mark.

So I could have been drinking
for most of the last 10 years,

which I think would've safely say
would've been fairly disastrous.

Oh, indeed.

So was that a coincidence?

An atheist would say that
was just a coincidence.

I asked God for a sign, someone was
put between me and a bottle shop.

So the higher Christians would say,
in that case, they would say, uh,

of you seeing someone there that
reminded you of your mission, they

would say it's Krishna's arrangement.

Right?

So that answers your question.

Yep.

God put that person there.

Mm-hmm.

Now.

They also talked a lot about,
obviously Hara, Krishna, the Hindus,

they talk about karma, right?

And reincarnation.

So they, they say, you know, karma
and re reincarnation go hand in hand.

They're both problematic
doctrines in different ways,

but they, they are, they are.

You need to put them together
for it to make sense.

So if you've got karma there, you
don't even need to say, God did this.

So it's a little bit more sophisticated.

Your good karma was to have someone
there remind you why, probably

'cause you reminded someone else.

So it.

The cosmic higher meaning of
it can be as simple as that.

You looked out for someone,
someone looked out for you, don't

you think that's good enough?

And ah, and then, and then years later
I, I got the sudden urge to, so you

might have to live many lives before you
become perfected and just go with it.

Well, yeah.

Sudden urge to, you know.

Yeah.

So years later I got the urge, sudden
urge to go to a local football game.

Sure.

And I went to a local football game.

They tend to be boozy affairs.

Yeah.

And I ran into someone from my
secret addiction recovery world.

Mm-hmm.

And he was like, oh, so
nice to see you here, man.

What are you doing here?

And I'm like, I don't know why I'm here.

And he is like, oh, I was just having a
hard time because it's such a boozy, this

is my first time I've come back to my
football club since I stopped drinking.

And it's such a boozy affair and it's
really nice to run into someone that I

can that is like share an experience with.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I, I was that person for
someone else years later.

This is the cosmic order
that I think I can get with.

So this, these are concrete
things that have happened Yes.

In my life.

And you can see how I started to
not believe in coincidences anymore.

So that was another coincidence, right?

Oh, yes.

You're not believing, it's
just pure chance that that

of no meaning intrinsically.

Oh, yes, yes.

No, I understand.

Whereas a strict atheist
would say, no, no.

That was also just completely random and.

There is no meaning to that.

Yeah, but you know what?

I think of those people as one dimensional
atheists and I, the, the ones I like.

It's the same with reli.

It's the same with, you know,
theistic types and atheistic types.

I don't like the ones that are really
super resolute and lack imagination

and get annoyed about any kind of
conversation out of the lane at all.

I think it shows a lack of curiosity
and I think it also in both cases

can show a bit of an insecurity.

Mm.

In their intellect.

Yeah.

It's like, it's like people that
get bothered, this is something you

come across a lot less these days.

It's like that old thing about like
guys that got positive, if they.

F found that they looked at
another man and felt some sort of

appreciation aesthetically, it's like,
holy fuck what's happening to me?

It's George Stanza.

It moved.

Yeah, it mo it moved.

It moved.

Yeah, exactly.

And it's like, it's, no, no, no.

This is just an ordinary occurrence.

Like we're complex beings with
layers and layers of shit going on.

And it, if you expect everything to
be simple and straightforward and just

so, and everything's definitive and in
categories, well, yeah, fuck, you're

gonna be disappointed constantly.

'cause life's not like that.

Oh, I have bizarre thoughts
all the time that, oh, yeah.

But now from meditation and seeing
thoughts, that's just thoughts

passing by in a constant stream.

I can have the weirdest fucking
thought ever and just be like,

oh, that's, that's passing by.

It's on its way.

And then it'll just be gone.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I don't feel, I don't feel like
I've been scathing enough of the Hara

Christians, but you've just reminded
me of something that sometimes when

people said it's God's arrangement.

it, it seemed a bit simple-minded to me.

I like that.

God's arrangement.

Yeah.

Christian's arrangement.

Yeah, I, I would agree with that
from those two experiences I had.

That's right.

But what I eventually realized is just
like you got simple-minded atheists and

simple-minded believers that actually,
just like with head sexuality, most

people are not entirely, uh, I dunno,
I'm really drawn to this analogy between

sexuality and religious experience, be
I, I, I feel like it's tied up somehow,

but like, not, not strictly correlated,
it's a similarly difficult and indefinable

and slippery area is what I'm saying.

And that these two extremes on the
spectrum of like completely hetero,

completely homosexual, that that's
actually, most people aren't.

And I think the, the same thing
applies to being completely

materialistic, completely theistic.

And so there's a lot of room
to think about what it means.

Uh, to have these sorts of
experiences and it's a good thing.

Well, and there high Christians that were
a bit more subtle and would look at that

story and say, you got what you needed.

Yeah.

And isn't that enough?

Yeah.

And I guess I'm thinking
about it now, which I've never

thought about this story before.

I've told it many times,
uh, in the secret world.

Mm.

But what if I drank that six pack,
got a hangover next day, woke up and

said, no, I don't want to drink again.

That could've, I don't have to assume
I would've drank for the last 10 years.

No, but the difference is
like, I can't, I I had never

bothered asking God for a sign.

And the weirdest thing
is, can I Well, why not?

Because I'd never believed.

Sure.

But I was trying to believe, yeah,
placebos don't work if you don't believe.

Yeah.

I was trying to believe.

So I asked God for a sign
and, and you know what?

I've never asked for another one since.

Is that weird?

No.

Like you think I'd be like a
next week, I'd be like, oh, gimme

another sign about, you know.

Well, it's not, no, no, no, no.

It's, it's not weird.

It's actually very sensible because
like I said, some of the more subtle

thinkers you'll find on either side of the
atheism, theism, divide or, uh, in just

about any debate, there's always those
subtle thinkers in there somewhere that

are able to kind of go No, no, no, no.

It makes sense.

And one of the things that I
came across from some of the more

reasonable thinkers in the highs
was like, yeah, like Christian's

gonna sort you out and hook you up
occasionally, but like, don't be greedy.

Yeah.

You know, it's felt like that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Don't, don't be calling on it too much.

And like, yeah.

Yeah.

That experience also makes
me think of another thing.

Jesus is not your delivery service.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

And that experience also makes me
think of another thing, which is

friend of the show, Huma Inlay.

Yeah.

Who's also a Catholic would say about
experience like that is there's two types

of people when confronted with a mystery.

Yeah.

Those who wanna solve the mystery uhhuh
and those that just can be in awe of it.

Sure.

And I think that's an
awestruck moment for me.

but if I want to, I keep unraveling
as in I can't believe there's a higher

purpose, which is where I'm at now.

And if I keep unraveling, then I
could go back and be like, oh dude,

you just had a random coincidence.

You ask God for a sign.

There happened to be someone,
shopping at that exact moment.

And you, you've freaked
out about it ever since.

But actually it was just complete chance.

And now you can go and get your
a atheist membership card again.

Yeah.

No, no.

See, I would, I would And stop
meditating and stop doing a different

diction recovery work and just Yeah.

Yeah.

Be a real concrete kind of guy again.

No, no.

I'm, I'm gonna advise against.

Going, I have to leave one camp and
join another, you know, looking, maybe

it's 'cause I'm a fence sitter, but
like, I actually, I don't think in my

case or that all the people I know that
are like, Hmm, maybe, maybe not about

a lot of things that I don't think
that this is a lack of decisiveness.

I think it's kind of where we're meant
to be and the demand that we, oh,

I've just gotta bloody pick a camp.

I've gotta be somewhere, I've
gotta make things definitive.

I think that's, you know, I think it's
something we have to resist and overcome.

Yeah.

And like, and, and get to a place
of just like letting go of That

was five years of therapy was Yeah.

I finally went in before I,
I've taken a break now, but

before I went on a break mm-hmm.

I went in there and I just kept
talking about the gray area.

Yeah.

Because I'm the most, Sam,
you know me pretty well.

I feel like I'm the most black and
white thinker of anyone I know.

I'm the most binary you can be.

Yeah.

On off.

It's true.

Like black and white about the,
and you can be impatient with

subtleties and gray areas for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I went in and I had this therapy
session where I was like a, I was

quoting chat GPTA lot 'cause it
had given me a lot of good advice.

But B, I was saying everything's
gotta, this relationship's

gotta be in the gray area.

This career mm-hmm.

Has gotta be in this gray area.

Sure.

This geopolitics is in a gray area.

Yeah, you're right.

Like so I'd finally taken the most
important lesson from this very skilled

and wise therapist, which was stay in the
gray area, stay in the ordinary place.

Yeah.

But, but see that's what I mean.

It's like now I'm in this place of doubt.

And maybe it's a natural thing.

No doubt is ordinary.

Yeah, yeah.

But at the 10 year mark of a spiritual
journey, maybe you wanted more.

Well, maybe it's a natural evolution
to come to a place of doubt.

and maybe I will end up more of
an agnostic because I haven't, I

switched from atheist to believer.

I never spent any time as an agnostic.

Yeah, yeah.

You didn't, you didn't
hang around the middle.

And that's, that's how
conversions, you know, that's

what the ene conversion, the St.

Paul conversion.

It's, that's why that story is
so compelling because it, it, it

looks as though it's instant and,
and 180 just like in a moment.

And it is that the way the story is
told, but there's a lot of layers

of subtlety to it and that he was
very much struggling with himself.

Right.

So whatever biographical information
I've been able to come across,

there seems to be a lot of it.

But the consensus I hear from Bible
scholars is that he was very much

struggling with a lot of the things
you would relate to obsessiveness.

Desire, uh, uh, is it unquenchable desire
and, and, uh, and resentment and black

and white thinking and all of that stuff.

In other words, St.

Paul was sort of your
average addict and neurotic.

Mm-hmm.

And back then they didn't have therapy.

but religious conversion was
actually a common route out

of, uh, addiction and neurosis.

And it, it remains one today for so many
people because it's not like you do your

conversion and then the work is done.

No, the work begins at last, but
Oh, but no, it doesn't begin.

The work began before that, that every
time he doubted what he was doing on

behalf of the Roman Empire, of, you
know, oppressing these Christians

who for the most part seemed okay.

People, um, who were just sort of trying
to look out for each other and then,

so to go from like they're the enemy
and must be stopped seemingly overnight

to then saying, this is the way and.

all the beautiful things he says in
the letters, like, neither, neither

man nor woman, neither slave nor
free person, neither Jew nor Gentile.

You are all one now in, in Jesus.

Now, that's the part I struggle with, but
like it's a superb formulation of human

equality and that we need to let go of
these sort of illusions of, of one person

is better than another, intrinsically,
and we have to love one another.

And the greatest sin is to not be
there properly for each other and

not properly be there in the moment.

Did you, it's not about
following the laws and doctrines.

Did you, you know, did, did there come
a time in your life where you said.

Okay.

I was raised Hari Krishna, but
I'm turning my back on it now.

Like a Yeah, there was
no definitive moment.

It was, but you fade,
you faded out from it.

It was a gradual thing and like, it
doesn't mean I won't go back there.

Yeah, you could go back.

But what I'm trying to say about
this story of conversion, which helps

you and me, but is that I think that
these things actually happened much

more gradually than the narrative has
it, and that the sort of cinematic

version of events isn't the real one.

And this cinema reveals
important things to us.

But as you know, as we both know, real
life simultaneously much less interesting

and much more interesting than cinema.

And that this idea that you flip
from being this to that, and then

the only, the only next step is
stay resolutely that forever.

And if do not permit the slightest doubt
or you will flip to the other polarity.

Yes.

Yes.

That's where I'm at now.

No, no, no.

What, what the Paul, what Paul's story
is designed to illustrate what I'm

trying to say here with it is that.

The work was already begun.

The work continued, but with like
a new consciousness of what it was.

And then in, in the process
of doing the work, the mission

changes and the messy swamp of
praxis changes you and it changes.

And you have to deal with
that as you go through.

And that never a settled question.

And if you actually look at the, uh, if
you look at all the available doctrines,

they all hint at this in various ways or
say it quite bluntly here and there that

this isn't a settled question and don't
expect it to be, uh, to always be obvious.

Now, this is also a theological
get outta jail free card, right?

But I, but I also think it's genuine
and that one of the solutions to this

particular dilemma here is to actually
go, it's actually a false dilemma.

So that's one solution.

And then there's another, which I
think is maybe more useful for you

is to adjust your theology a bit.

And I don't mean in like a
super intellectual way, but for

example, Christian's arrangement.

Right.

Does that require the
direct intervention of God?

So the direct intervention of God creates
all sorts of theological and practical

and philosophical problems, right?

it, it, it brings up sort of problems
like, why didn't God intervene

in this case instead of that one?

Oh yeah.

And then, and then we have to hand
wave those problems away by saying, uh,

well, whoa, well we can't understand.

But that was, yeah.

I mean, that was when, when Ramdas
was hanging out with his guru.

Yeah.

And there was a famine in Bangladesh.

Horrible.

And Ramdas wanted to go and take
his van and use it as an ambulance.

Sure.

And his guru said, can't you see?

It's all perfect?

And that same guru would
say the same about Gaza Now.

Maybe can't you see?

It's all perfect.

That's the point about each
snowflake falling in its appropriate

price is you have to, yeah.

You then have to accept that everything
that's happening is happening right now.

Yeah.

And this is exactly as it should be.

Totally with God's hand.

And this is why institutionally religious
people, uh, especially fundamentalists,

will tend to either reject politics,
not just as a way to achieve anything

useful, but reject it on its premise
that it shouldn't even exist.

That God has laid out the laws.

We don't need to contest anything.

Now, obviously I can't go with that.

The idea that we've got all this
agency, but, but not really.

And just let God take care of things.

It's, to me, that's unacceptable.

And, you know, oh, a person's about
to tip toxic waste in a river.

No.

Go over there and slap 'em on the wrist.

Take away the toxic waste and go here.

You're gonna pay for its safe disposal.

That is the use of human agency.

But that, that could be God's will too.

Well, exactly right.

So it doesn't settle
the matter either way.

And the people that want it to settle
the matter either way are usually

trying to avoid something or deny
something, or I mean, the existence

of suffering, the existence of
suffering, which has always been with

us and will always be with us mm-hmm.

Does not prove or disprove God.

No, no, that's what I'm saying.

But, but yeah, for, for the average
18-year-old atheist, they would say

what's happening in Gaza means that
if there's a God, he's a real cunt.

You know, like that's to the extent God
has anything to do with what humans do.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

But, but see, I, my experience of God was
someone between me and the bottle shop.

So that's an interventionist God.

Yes.

But, but, but I mean, I don't know
how Christian's arrangement works,

but I took it to be, fuck there's a
God and it's gonna help me in my life.

Right?

So this is where it gets more interesting.

So the higher Christians also their
doctrine, you know, sort of Hindu doctrine

from the Bugger Gita and the Vaders.

It does, uh, it contains all
sorts of theoretically answers

to this question, right?

But they also have to deal
with the problem of evil.

And they also have to hand wave
occasionally and go, well, we can't always

understand Krishna's purpose, right?

So they end up in that same
dilemma, but their formulation's

a little bit more sophisticated.

And so it, it, I think
it works a bit better.

And it's like, and you'll come
across Christians that see it in

this more subtle way too, that
it's not Christian acting directly.

He's acting through, I would
say his expansions, but no,

their expansions 'cause it's a.

Gender non-binary situation really.

And there's like these en, there's
these two energies at work in creation

and that it's not God intervening
directly, but God's energy is

spread out through everything God
is ever present and et cetera.

But also there's a little spark of the
absolute perusia inside every one of us.

Right.

Yeah.

And Buddhists can get with that, but
I think non-duality says that too.

EE, exactly.

Yeah.

And, and that there is, so whether
it's like the literal Harry Krishna

painting of like a little Vishnu
inside everyone's heart surrounded by

a little halo, which is, you know, sort
of laughably literal or whether it's

something a bit more Buddhist and, uh,
ti uh, non jewel, which is sort of like.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The, your, the, there's the essence of
the university in, in all of us, right?

Yes.

And we merge with the one
sooner or later, right?

Yes.

That thing, well, that's where,
why Ramed US says we're all

just working each other home.

Correct.

Because we'll merge with the one
So Christian's arrangement again

that I'm, see, I'm struggling
to come in terms with that.

I don't, I can help you here.

I I can't make my peace with death
either, and I'm, so that's, I'm

falling back into being an athe.

No, there's reincarnation,
so don't even worry about it.

The bad news and the good news
is you have to do this again.

Yeah.

I mean, that's the other option
for me, Sam, is to, for the first

time in my life, join a religion.

And the religion I would
join would be Buddhism.

Sure.

And I'm seriously contemplating it.

And then I might get some
reincarnation on online.

Yes.

And that could help me with what
Ramdas is saying, which is we're

all just walking each other home.

Whereas I've always treated death
as this thing you have to fight.

Like no matter what.

Yeah.

So where, where I was going.

Well, that's right.

So where I was, sorry, I've thrown you.

No, no.

And it's a brutal thing to have to
deal with the ultimately, like the,

the problem of evil's bad enough, but
the problem of my own death is the

ultimate evil that really is a great
injustice and shouldn't, shouldn't exist.

Right.

So, so getting, getting past that
big one I wanna live on in my

apartment, not in my work, you know?

Yeah.

And like, so I, I'll say, you know,
strike one for God, he graded us to die.

That sucks.

We're gonna need a good
story to deal with this.

Uh, and well, Harry Christians do.

They've got a great one ready to go.

We can maybe get back to that.

But the energy and the divine
is not acting directly.

It is acting through.

The good people.

It's acting through those that
believe it's acting through

those that feel compassionate.

It's, you know, so there's
different qualifiers to it.

They don't have to be true believers.

They can just be people that are
on the path, which is actually

how everybody's characterized.

There is no one who's gotten all the way.

Yeah, that person I saw in the
supermarket, I didn't know them.

No.

I just know that I knew that I'd
seen him in, in that world and

they didn't have to be a perfect
being to help you in that moment.

Made eye contact with me, but
they didn't say hello 'cause

we didn't know each other.

But it was all I, it was enough.

Yeah.

Like most people don't get
a moment like that, Sam.

So Krishna acts through his
entities, through his creations.

Well, that's in that world.

They say coincidences is
how, God remains anonymous.

Yes.

Yes, exactly.

Can you dig that one?

Yeah.

Oh, a hundred percent sure.

I mean, that's a great formulation.

Whatever theologian came up with that.

Very clever.

Mm.

But I, but, but also as Dwight,
can I get it as a, as a statement?

But see, I'm dropping that too.

I'm dropping the coincidences.

I'm just like, oh, there's
another coincidence.

Fucking means nothing.

No, I'm backsliding, man.

See, see what's, you know what, one of
the things that used to bother me about

the talk of coincidences, you know,
again, I'm gonna have a bed each way.

Right.

I would get equally annoyed at the
people that were like, no, no, no, no.

Purely random.

There's enough universe, there's enough
time passing for like, enough unlikely

things to happen to impress the rubes.

Right?

And I'm like, sure.

And then I guess, but then
there's the other side, like.

Which I think is a little too strong
of a take either, oh my God, every

single coincidence am we gonna have,
and we're gonna have a really low

threshold for what constitutes a, a
coincidence, like an epic coincidence.

Uh, and that all of them
are of epic significance.

Yeah.

And it's like, okay, fuck, can we just
go down the middle here somewhere?

That's the second is where you're
getting into a Byron Bay Yes.

Manifesting everything.

And then you are over
overinterpreting everything.

Yeah.

Everything's, and then you end
up down conspiracy Absolutely.

Rabbit holes, and you end up with
cons, spirituality, and Absolutely.

Or no, or in some cases worse
than that, you actually end up,

in some cases you start with that.

And then strangely enough, a lot of people
end up with white supremacy and like,

let's get women back in the kitchen.

Yeah.

You know, that whole, um, how Byron
Bay went right wing is just wild.

No, no, it is wild.

Until you start to inquire about.

For example, I asked a friend that
I only see very occasionally is very

bright and is, he's always changed
a lot every time and he's always

moving on and doing new things.

but like me, retains an interest in
history and, uh, of course both of

us an interest in German history and
we've discussed it before many times.

cause he has ancestors there and
identifies as sort of a, you know,

sort of an expat German grew up in
Australia sort of thing, and but

also identifies as Jewish, uh, you
know, at least half or whatever.

so I put this question to him, you
know, I was like, Craig, you know,

I've thought a lot about fascism.

You've thought a lot about it.

And you know, I just wanna say this, I was
thinking about it a long time before it

was cool you guys, and uh, and we often
debated, you know, the meaning of it.

But I think our thoughts
aligned frequently, but.

He was one step ahead of me on this
question of like, why the white linen

people end up fascists so often and
hang on, what's a white linen person?

Oh, you know, it starts with like
healthy food and wearing white linen.

Oh yeah.

Byron Bay being clean and pure.

Yeah.

Right.

Well, you know this, you remember
the sound of music, you know Al Vice?

Yeah.

Pure and white, et cetera.

Yeah.

So there's a problem with some sort
of dedication to purity to begin with.

That's an issue.

so that's kind of as far as I'd gotten.

Okay.

They're sort of, they wanna be pure
and then so that sort of leads to false

thinking about pure people and that,
and he is like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because there's something more
fundamental here, Sam, why are they

thinking like that in the first place?

And I'm like, Hmm, there's
some sort of dissatisfaction.

Something's not right.

And, and they're not wrong.

Right Craig?

And he's like, no, they're not wrong.

But what conclusion do they come to?

And I'm like, I don't know,
like everything's wrong,

I guess is the conclusion.

And he's like, yeah, basically the
fundamental problem with the white linen,

new age people, the ones that go bad,
that is, it's a rejection of modernity.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm like, well, they're
right to critique it.

Right?

And he's like, oh yeah, modernity
has many problems, right?

So do the alternatives, but their
premise isn't, there's things

wrong with modernity, let's fix it.

It's No, no, no.

We reject modernity, wholesale,
and we're gonna throw the

car into reverse and go back.

And it's like, and that's when I started
to pick up the thread of the conversation.

I'm like, okay.

Okay.

So anyone who's looked at history now
can tell you there is no reverse gear.

Never ever was.

You're in the now.

The future's not determined yet
either, but there's no going back.

Yeah.

And you might be in a dead end, you
might be about to drive off a cliff.

There might be more than
one forward direction.

Some might be better than
others, but it's forward.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nonetheless.

Yeah.

And there's no going back.

And so for us moderns, we have this
afflicted consciousness that wants to

settle this matter one way or the other.

And I'm like, no, don't try and settle it.

Don't dismiss signs.

Don't be like, it's everything either.

Like, can is that okay?

You know, it's, it's, it's like
almost like, don't dismiss signs.

Don't dismiss science.

Exactly.

And what, you know, the, the, how does
the subconscious, even if we just explain

it purely as subconscious, like let's
go, let's go with a science explanation

for why people find that there are signs,
but also they've helped people before.

Maybe we can scientifically explain
that, but I think it's a moot point.

I, I, they help people in that, in that,
in that moment, call it my moment of

spiritual conversion in that moment, what
I was overwhelmed with was a sense of awe.

And a sense of humility.

Yeah.

That it, it would, it would take the
most arrogant of atheists to ask God

to put someone between them and the
bottle shop when they're an alcoholic.

Mm-hmm.

And someone is put there and then you
say, oh, that doesn't mean anything.

Yeah.

You would have to be so
arrogant to just Yes.

Like, you'd have to be really up your
own ass, like more, more than you look,

if you ask God for something every day
and then on the hundredth day God showed

you something, you'd be questioning it.

But when you've only ever asked once Yeah.

And it happened, well there are, well also
there are those that have, There are those

that ask for the sign and the intervention
and then fail to make use of it.

The doctrine is full of those stories.

And then there are those that never ask.

But I'm reminded of some verse
about those with ears to hear.

Right.

And I, I think what it's telling
us, and I don't wanna be totally

relativistic and explain it all the way,
but I think what it's telling us is.

The signs may not be obvious.

You might have to be subtle.

You might have to be alert and
attentive, and it's calling you

into the moment and it's like.

It's not gonna be a goddamn billboard with
10 foot letters telling you what's what.

Yeah.

It's like you have to do some of the
work here yourself, motherfucker.

That's what it's saying.

Yeah.

Right.

And isn't that in accord with
everything you've discovered

about spirituality so far?

Yeah.

All right.

Well look in conclusion.

In conclusion, yeah.

What we're both saying is, so
Eckhart Toll is a spiritual teacher.

Sure.

He, he claims to have had a spiritual
awakening one night in a bed in London,

and he never was the same again.

He, he never came back to not having
spiritual, he was able to escape a

feeling of utter despair and emptiness.

Yes.

So he claims to be speaking to
us from a place of awakenness.

Yeah.

And he's saying very confidently
that there is a higher purpose.

Mm-hmm.

Every snowflake falls in
its appropriate place.

Yeah.

We can't think about it, but
we can subtly align ourselves

with us, what we're saying.

Sitting here in Melbourne
is, we don't know.

Yeah.

I don't know.

You don't know.

Maybe there is, if there is a higher
purpose than something like Gaza

is just like, mind bogglingly.

Impossible to, to, I, I don't, I have no
words, but like, well, I mean, I've got

some thoughts about the causality of that.

There's causality.

Sure.

But what, where it's ended
up like the horror now.

Well, it was entirely predictable
according to a lot of people.

Yeah.

Or I don't want to get into political,
I'm just saying spiritually.

No, no.

I mean, just social scientists.

The suffering, the level of suffering.

Yeah.

Which maybe we'd hoped maybe was
in the past, which is happening

again, is so hard to reconcile with
any kind of interventionist God.

Yeah.

That it, it almost breaks.

That's what I mean.

It almost breaks that link between me
and a higher power, if that higher power.

Oh no, I understand.

Yeah.

Okay.

So you're actually saying Yohi are very.

Grappling seriously with
the problem of evil.

Like yes, in an existential way.

Yes.

Okay.

Okay, sure.

And do you know what?

That's very fair.

I'm reminded, I thought about this
and I, but I decided not to bring

it up, but I've changed my mind.

Do you know that little, that little zen
story about, so it's, it is a strange one.

I thought about it many times
that, and they're all strange,

all the good ones, anyway.

But like, you know, one night at the
monastery, for some reason, the learned

master is murdered in his sleep, right?

Well, rather, he awakens from sleep
just as he's about to be murdered.

And he screams in fear and pain.

And the next day some of the
novices are very unsettled.

They're like obviously
this horrible event.

But the thing that's bothering them
the most, the nagging question,

the grief, that's understandable.

But the nagging question they
can't deal with is, but he was

the most enlightened among us.

And he couldn't accept death.

So what hope is there for me?

Yeah.

Well, sure.

Not a bad question, I guess, but what's
the rejoinder from the second most learned

person in the place, or the second most
wise or realized person in the place?

Hey, who are you to judge that?

A perfectly human reaction.

Oh, I'm paraphrasing, but to
me, this is how the story goes.

That is a very human reaction.

None of us, however, self
realized would react differently.

And it would, it would be, we would
lack compassion for another to

expect them to react differently
just so that we might feel better.

In other words, even after enlightenment,
the horror doesn't go away.

But in theory, yeah, in theory, you are
better equipped to deal with everyday

sort of horror and stay in the place
of compassion instead of, 'cause,

you know, hurt people, hurt people.

Right.

Oh yeah.

And if you, getting
outta that is difficult.

Yeah.

And when you read The Power of
Now by Eckhart Toll in 1997, he's

predicting the complete breakdown
of society because of egoic Sure.

Egoic identification.

And he's saying, unless everyone awakens
to the Eckhart Toll style of awake Yeah.

Only I can save the world.

Sure.

Yeah.

It's, he, so he predicts, he
does apocalyptic predictions

back in 1997, which as bad as the
world seems have not come true.

No.

so yeah, like many spiritual teachers,
he will predict like the end of the

world unless you agree with Yeah.

There's a massive overreach and Yeah.

And, and, and whether it's a market.

Yeah.

And I love that book.

I reread it because it's, I gave
it, you know, it's the one book

I've given to my oldest daughter.

I love it.

But that stuff, ah, I don't know.

I just wish I, it doesn't
need to be in there.

It doesn't really add to his message.

I, you know, also, maybe
we can write this off as.

Excesses of a, of a young man.

Right.

And maybe he'd be much more considered
now, who can say, but certainly

this is a tactic you see with Alex
Jones and you see with every cult.

Oh, I remember during COVID he put
out a video, which was just like

at the height of the chaos and
just looking into the camera going,

this is your chance to wake up.

Sure, sure.

Like, sure.

Wake up to what Exactly.

He wasn't like, oh, it's gonna be okay.

He's like, this is your, this.

Everything that's happening
is your chance to wake up.

Well, certainly the guy I mentioned
before, Craig, we had a discussion

earlier in the Pando, which was
like, maybe a year in or so.

yeah.

Yeah.

I agree.

This is a chance for people
to wake up, but it's like.

My pitch was, oh, people were
waking up to the existence of a

thing called the state, and it has
powers, it has repressive powers.

It has a monopoly on legitimate violence.

If it doesn't want to allow you
to protest, it won't allow it.

If it needs you to do a certain thing
for good or bad reasons, it's gonna

try and get you to do that thing.

It's gonna call on you for
cooperation, and it's gonna hit you.

If it can't get the cooperation,
it's gonna sanction you in some way.

This thing exists, and some
people, it seems adults.

Who managed to get through life.

Yeah.

At 35 or 40 or 50, discover that
there's a thing called government Yeah.

And are fucking astonished by it.

That Yeah.

Yeah.

That can't be mandatory.

Yeah.

It's like, yes, it can.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Government exists, bro.

And, and, and so I, so I said, you
know, in a rather smarmy moment where

I was feeling a bit high on my own
supply, 'cause there was a brief pause

in pandemic and we were in restaurants
and stuff, and there's a cool friend

from overseas visiting, and I felt
quite satisfied with myself, as I said.

yes, Craig, uh, the, there are
many who've suddenly discovered the

theories of Max Weber, you know, the,
the, the, the monopoly on legitimate

violence, et cetera, et cetera.

And, and then as the conversation went
on, well they discovered that modernity

where, where, uh oh, where we're in it.

Uh oh.

Everything was cool when the treat
supply was steady and everything was

cool when I thought I had freedom.

But really I just adjusted to a
certain set of limitations and

that in my mind was freedom.

And then now the limitations
have changed in some way.

And now I'm not free, but like in
that same kind of simple minded

way of like, I was totally free
before and now I'm 0% free now.

It's this kind of black and white
thinking, which gets people into trouble.

Yeah.

You know, I look, I didn't mind Eckhart
to look him in the eye, tell me to

wait, have a spiritual awakening.

It was about as useful as anything
else I could do in during lockdown.

I think it's a good invitation.

Yeah.

It's just, it's what you
do with it, you know?

Yeah.

It's like, you gonna but, but,
but Eckhart to wouldn't say that.

You know, it escaped randomly from a lab,
or it was randomly, someone eating a bat

would say He didn't, he didn't say that.

No, he didn't have an opinion either way.

But from what he's written there,
he would say, this is God's higher

purpose, the whole COVID thing.

And everyone that died from it
was, well, God created viruses.

I guess so.

Yeah.

I mean, I guess, yeah, but the way
it even unfolded in the world, Sam

has to be part of a higher purpose.

Uh, yeah.

And maybe that higher purpose is, see,
I would say it was fucking random,

whatever it started from, from same.

It was a crazy, random series
of crazy events that, but,

but here's the thing, right?

Even a, even a sort of committed fence
sit like me, can see some bigger patterns,

some slightly larger, more epic things.

Yeah.

The environmentalist like to
say, oh, well this is in humans

encroaching on the natural world.

It's like, yeah, except, unless
it got out of a lab, which no one

knows, I, I'm actually going with the
Pangolin, it's much more likely the

wet markets have been a vector before.

Sure.

Sam.

Yeah.

I'm saying people will take an
event and, and overlay whatever

their preexisting ideology was.

Well, look, I, I, I'm a, look,
I'm, I'm interested in history.

I think that the, the higher meanings
are to be found in sort of two places.

The combination of chaos and causality,
that history is the synthesis of what

it is and what we'd like it to be.

Instead, things, we oppose things,
we try to support the, the, the

crab walk up the beach, you know,
side to side to side to side.

But it's, maybe it's going in
some direction, maybe it's not,

you know, dialectics, right?

But.

There's also another source of higher
meaning and higher purpose in history,

which is what the fuck we make of it.

And that is a thing that
is hugely contested.

Like what is the meaning of history?

What's the meaning of the present?

What should the future be?

Well, unfortunately I've
got bad news for people.

If you are hoping to escape
controversy or having to think

for yourselves, it can't be done.

And if you think you can escape the
influence of others and the requests of

others and the pressure from other, no,
you're not gonna escape that either.

So you're not entirely free, but also
you're not entirely unfree and you

have, you've got some agency, you've
gotta join with the rest of humans.

But what about rather than to
try and make it a better place?

What about rather than trying to do
my will, I try and do god's will?

Is that good advice?

Absolutely.

But now we just have to
figure out what God's will is.

Yeah.

I've been wrestling with that
one for a long time, and I have,

I think absolutely no idea.

I think the scriptural source.

So it's up to, as far as I can
tell, it's up to me still as

much as I, and I've tried to hand
it over Sam to a higher power.

Mm-hmm.

And in the end, when, when something
goes wrong in my life, it's usually

something I've done well and a dec
decision I've made that I got wrong.

Mm, yes, yes, yes.

But the, the bug in the Protestant code,
Martin Luther had legitimate criticisms of

Catholic church, which needed to be made.

Uh, he was also an anti-Semite, but he did
unleash a hell of a train of consequences,

which even he didn't quite want.

Uh, not all of them anyway,
just like Margaret Thatcher.

I don't think she tended
to unravel British society.

She did it, but it wasn't quite her plan.

and so it was Martin Luther and
he's like the primacy of conscience

and like, no, no, we're not getting
the doctrine from the priests.

We have to discover it
ourselves in the book.

Fast forward a few hundred years.

Oh, oh, it's whatever I think it is.

I'm a church of one.

Whatever.

I, I'm gonna manifest that.

That's, that's where most, that's
where so many Christians are at

now, and other religious types.

They've actually gotten
quite new age, a lot of them.

And they've really renounced sort
of an engagement with reality.

and you've also got materialists
and atheists that just wanna retreat

into blaming religion for everything.

And I find all of this quite childish and
that it's actually, we're all just a bunch

of humans in a massive fucking dilemma.

And that's the meaning of life.

Yeah.

It's like we're in this
difficult, difficult dilemma.

Don't, together, don't think whether you
call it god's will or a higher purpose.

I think I could do a lot worse
sometimes and close my eyes for five

minutes and just try and think what
the higher purpose would want me to do.

Uh, yeah.

And what That's a, that's
totally, that's a, that's a.

Tall in my toolkit I
didn't have as an atheist.

Yes.

You know, I just acted
in the world and Yeah.

Dealt with the reaction.

Well, I, I go Yeah, no, that makes sense.

Deal with the consequences.

Yeah.

Pausing.

Yeah.

Reflecting, yeah.

Meditating.

Yeah.

well, I, I go with, yes, I
go with Geck on this though.

He says I'm an atheist Paul line.

That basically what Paul asks us to
do in the letters, that's my platform.

But I reject the idea that I have to
believe in Jesus in order to do that.

And that, what Paul was actually
saying was, at the moment we need

this idea of Jesus and salvation
and the body of the church in

order to become our better selves.

But it di it didn't necessarily
mean this was the only way

it could ever be achieved.

And obviously Socialists and Mar
revolutionary Marxists believed that

they could do this in a secular way.

They could create utopia and
heaven on earth in a secular way.

Right.

Now the world today, obviously a, a
mess that might become a bigger mess.

It's hard to say exactly, but
it's not all what we say it is.

And it's not all set out either.

So that's, so what does God ask us to do?

What is God's will?

Well, I'm gonna tell you actually,
I think there's loads of scriptural

evidence from across all the religions
and none of it is particularly

convenient for powerful people.

That's where you know it's real.

So if it says, if it says act with
charity and compassion, if it says

care for the sick and clothe the
naked and go to those in prison as

though you yourself were a prisoner.

And if it, and if it tells you to
sympathize with a band of oppressed

people being crushed by an empire,
well that's what that book says to do.

So I think it's.

Pretty clear who's who currently,
in terms of that narrative.

it asks us to regard other humans as
no more or less than ourselves and as

companions in this difficult journey.

Like that's all it is.

Like, isn't that big enough?

Isn't that hard enough and cosmic enough?

Yeah.

I've never had a god from a, from a book.

Well, what I'm saying is I've be one those
people trying to work it out on my own.

No, well, that's fine, right?

I don't care about the scr.

Any scriptures.

No, but the, well, the scripture
people will say, the, the, the

honest ones will say these documents
aren't perfect, but they are

useful and make reference to them.

And then there's the people
that are like, no, no, religion,

spirituality, it's a difficult.

Path that everyone has to walk alone
to some degree, and every experience

is gonna be a little bit different.

Well, I think both of those people
are right, but I do think it's

interesting to reflect on what humans
have written down at different points.

Yeah.

As the word of God.

So refer.

And so when I refer people to scriptures,
what I'm actually referring them to is

statements from previous humans thousands
of years ago, hundreds of years ago.

and they say a lot of the same things.

Now, there's also stuff in there
about having a hierarchy and a

cosmic sort of hierarchy and, uh,
casts and stinky stuff like that.

But I can refer you to another scriptural
authority that says, no, no, no, no.

Hinduism has no future if it stays
with caste as Hanya 500 years ago says,

we have to abolish caste ethnicity.

in fact, we have to abolish kind of this
idea that we're all in different religions

all together and we have to abolish
basically gender-based hierarchy as well.

So like, this was a radical throwdown 500
years ago, and people keep making those

throwdowns and like, I don't know what
sort of higher purpose Toley has in mind.

Well, he's gonna tell you
we can't say what it is.

We just have to try and
feel it and follow it.

Yeah.

Can we go with that?

Can we try and feel it and follow it?

I think that that could be a good place to
leave it, Sam, but, um, yeah, I, it's been

good to thrash out my spiritual crisis.

Do you still feel like you're
in the same degree of crisis?

I think that in conclusion.

Maybe we could all take some time
to align ourselves with a higher

purpose we can't quite understand.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

So maybe I've come back around to
thinking it's a beautiful quote

and I'm kind of okay with it.

Mm-hmm.

And it's, it's a quite a beautiful quote
that leaves you with a lot of work to

do, and any person on a spiritual path
who isn't concerned with a problem of

human suffering at some point and how
that relates to a higher power mm-hmm.

Has maybe missed something, you know,
oh, they've absolutely missed that.

And maybe I've become a Buddhist
and renounce ever having high,

not ever having, having one, but
renounce having a higher power

and renounce a higher purpose.

Maybe then maybe I get more and
more into Buddhism, which I find

to be quite concrete actually.

Yeah.

There are some aspects of it that are
quite weird and mysterious and there's

other parts that are very concrete.

Indeed.

It's interesting like that.

Yeah.

Uh, that's what I'm feeling
a strong pull towards.

I don't know.

So you see, you see Buddhism though
as non monotheistic kind of thing.

It's sort of not even theistic.

Well, there's no higher power.

Yeah.

I dunno.

But Buddha in a religious in, if you go
to a religiously Buddhist country Yeah.

Buddha is venerated as he's worshiped
as a sort of God Yes, a hundred percent.

In a similar way that Jesus is,
but Western, yeah, like Buddhism

that I could sign on for would be
none of that, if that makes sense.

Well, yeah.

Unless I wanted to have some of that.

Well it's interesting though, 'cause
Tibetan Buddhism meanwhile, so

you're right, some of that Southeast
Asian Buddhism, it's sort of quite.

Recognizably, they're worshiping this God.

Yeah.

That's clear enough.

Yeah.

And, and they, and when you hang out with
'em, they don't take it that seriously.

That's right.

And like religion here.

Yeah.

Like Christians here.

Yeah.

They sort of hold it lightly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Which I, I kind of dig on some level.

Yeah.

And then, but then you've got like
Tibetan Buddhism, which is like

much more weird and interesting.

It's got all these budha
and ghosts and like Yeah.

Tupa and it's quite far out.

And there's actually some kind
of, there's kind of some creepy

characters in like the law.

Like it's, I do, I mean, I do sometimes
think Sam, as a bipolar person, I've

done well to never join a religion and
maybe I should not join a religion.

Well, like, because I am
prone to being a zealot.

I think some would suit
you better than others.

I'm prone to zealotry.

Yes.

And there are Buddhist zealots too.

Uh, yeah.

So I've never signed on
for a religion and I'm 45.

I'm only drawn to one
religion and that's Buddhism.

Well, if you're gonna be a zeal, but I'm
in a spiritual dilemma, which is a good

time to join a religion, I guess probably.

Yeah.

Uh, I think, well if you're gonna
be a zealot, maybe Western Buddhism

is, could be worse of a thing
to be a zealot about, I guess.

And also like I was just
thinking before about Yeah.

'cause there were har Christians who
in their zealotry did a lot of good

and there were others who didn't.

Uh, or it was a mixed bag.

Right.

so I'm not necessarily afraid
of you becoming mega committed

to that, but That's right.

I was remembered.

I was reminded of a John Lennon quote.

In like there's a particular edition
of the Bug Gita or whatever, where

there's like an introduction from John
Lennon that, you know, that Harry's

asked him to write and he says, uh, the
proof of the pudding is in the eating.

You know, you can't like look at it and
go, that's a good pud, that's my pud, I'm

on that PUD train for the rest of my life.

It's like, no, no.

Eat the pod mates.

See what happens.

Yeah.

Or drop some acid and
decide you're a Hindu.

Well, it is kind of what those guys did.

Yeah.

I get, you're right, you're right.

That was sort of like, I saw things
with multiple arms and heads.

Yeah.

I guess we're going with this now.

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Alright, I'm gonna go, Sam.

Yeah, you can stay if you want, but you're
in my house, so I'll have to kick you out.

No, no.

You can make me a coffee then kick me out.

All right.

Well it's been fun and um, thanks for
helping with my spiritual dilemma.

Oh, well, I, I hope it gets
better and stays the same and.

Well, yeah, I mean, I can come and
join you in the agnostic with the

splinters in my ass a hundred percent.

It's uncomfortable, but
someone's gotta do it.

All right, see you mate.

See ya.