The Ten Thousand Things

hello and welcome to the 10,000 things.

My name is Sam Ellis.

I'm Joe Loh.

Today we're gonna talk about
therapy without therapists.

Is that right, Joe?

Is it possible to do
therapy without a therapist?

Now you are skeptical.

I'm gonna say no, and it's a dangerous
I idea, but it made me think of

Adam Phillips and Adam Phillips.

Um, British psychoanalyst once said
that he wants the therapy process to

be carried on outside the therapy room.

what?

No, I just wanted to almost make
a disclaimer that I don't think we

should put out a podcast that says
you can do therapy without therapist.

I think that's insane.

Well, this came about because
we were talking about after

the last record, like, well.

Did you find that a therapeutic chat?

Yeah.

Yeah, I did.

I always feel better.

Yeah.

Well then, well then if that felt
therapeutic, I mean, we can't quite call

it therapy, but it was sort of like for
reframing the purpose of Yeah, yeah.

What's this show aiming to do?

It's to have a therapeutic conversation.

Oh, these two people.

And look, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a peer
support worker, so my job is to talk

to people from, based on my lived
experience of bipolar disorder.

Yeah.

And try and have a therapeutic chat.

But I, I'm very aware that I don't
have clinical psychologist or

psychiatrist training, like, and I
don't disrespect those four or five

or six or 10 years of education.

That's if you do the doctorate.

That's all I'm saying.

I respect and more than a lot
of people I talk to, I really

respect those qualifications.

So, and then there's the,
the dark arts of Yeah.

The dark arts of like my only clinical
psychologists of the last five years.

Little bit like Kian.

So she's got zk, who I
hate books on her shelf.

Oh.

You know, love it.

So I know that I have no idea what she's
talking about, you know, like she beat

you in an intellectual arm wrestle.

Yeah.

She's quite brilliant.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But, but I respect her qualification
as a clinical psychologist,

even if I don't understand her
qualification as lacanian analyst.

And she's never put me on the couch.

And she's, and we haven't done
twice a week for years or so.

I've never done psychoanalysis.

I've only ever really done mm-hmm.

Clinical psychology sessions.

Okay.

Um, so that was just a disclaimer,
but I think we should read

some quotes from Adam before.

Well, I was gonna say, I want,
I've got a question about that.

We can, but we can
probably get back to it.

The, where does she, does
your practitioner frame it

as therapy versus analysis?

Does she, you know, like, I'm interested.

She never tells me if I'm getting
analysis or, or therapy or, sorry,

analysis or just clinical psychology.

Right.

Yeah.

I think it's good to keep the labels
out of it because part of the, I think

part of the mystification and the
reason people don't think they can

necessarily get the level of sup, the
support they need from friends as well as

professionals, if you see what I'm saying.

We're not advising anyone to quit, but.

What we're gonna talk about
is how much therapy you can

do outside the therapy room.

I guess, can we have curious and
helpful conversations with each other?

Yes.

That lead to healing can.

Yes, we can.

Yes.

Yes we can.

Yes, we can.

Very, a bummer of you.

I love it.

I so, I mean, don't like that guy,
but I like the sentiment if, if you

hadn't done 10 years of therapy,
much more intensive than me.

Yeah.

And I hadn't done five years of therapy.

Yeah.

I don't think this show would be
as good as it is if it is good.

I agree.

Because we've learn a certain
way of talking, which, yes.

Anyway, I reckon you should
read some Adam Phillips stuff.

It creates a level of
comfort with certain honesty.

Okay.

So a few key ideas from
Philip on this theme.

He sees therapy as a rehearsal
for a more honest or imaginative

conversation in life, not something
separate or superior to it.

Right.

So it's not elevated, it's not
above everyday conversation.

He's, he said therapy is a conversation
that makes other conversations possible.

He's also written that the aim of
psychoanalysis is not to cure, but to

help someone live a life in which analysis
isn't necessary, meaning the person

internalizes that reflective dialogue.

Mm.

And we should get into where we
think we're at on our journeys.

Mm.

there's a lot of good stuff in there.

So I, I'm, I'm on a
pause from therapy, Sam.

Yeah.

Partly for financial reasons.

Mm-hmm.

Partly because the last session
just made me feel a lot worse than

I was feeling before it, uh oh.

Which can be a part of her process,
but like at what point, at no point has

she ever said, I think you're done now.

You can go off and be
in the world without me.

Yeah.

But then there is a financial
incentive in having me back next week.

Right, of course.

And people get very cynical
about that financial incentive.

They do, but it is there.

Sure.

And is it possible to trust a
therapist's assessment about whether

it's a good time to end or not?

And if they say, I think we
should end well, then that's

maybe something you can trust more
than I think we should continue.

But yeah, I think, but I think we
should continue is often right.

It's more often right than not.

And Yeah.

You know, I mean, I'm pretty fucking
crazy, certainly in my subconscious.

There's a great quote about
that from Philip, but Yes, yes.

If you walk around feeling
like, then again, is it strange

to walk around feeling like,
God, these thoughts are crazy.

You know what I mean?

Or is that actually kind of what
you get after a while in therapy?

You can just recognize like, oh
yeah, those are some classic.

Just repetitive or unuseful routine sort
of thoughts, but the bizarre thoughts,

you know, the disturbing thoughts.

Oh, well, sure.

Um, I, like, I noticed some of
them these days and I'm like, wow,

did we really just think that?

But, but much more than I used to.

I'm like, oh, it doesn't matter.

It's just mm-hmm.

You know, because in the Buddhist
sense, thoughts are just clouds

passing through the vast sky Yeah.

Of awareness.

Yeah.

And what I am is awareness.

Yeah.

So you're being, experiencing awareness.

Yeah.

So that really fucked up thought
I just had, uh, really doesn't,

nothing has to be done about it.

It's just gotta pass through.

I've gotta allow it to pass through.

This is a key.

Nothing has to be done about it.

99% of the time.

Most of our thoughts are not
really useful in forming an.

The majority of it is, is,
is, is rumination and, uh,

what if, what if, what if?

And a lot of the time when we're
struggling to make a decision, we

try and resolve it with thought,
which did, does not really work.

And it's such a, such a relief to,
to discover that we may have been

placing too much faith and too
much importance on our thoughts.

And it's the same thing of placing too
much importance on feelings sometimes.

Right?

Yeah.

You go, sometimes you can just
let the feeling happen and

then you can just let it go.

Yeah.

I think you make a really good point,
which is most thoughts don't need to

be acted on, like the vast majority.

I think 99% is a pretty good percentage
of how many much, how many of your

thoughts are completely useless.

Yes.

Or they don't need to be affirmed by you
or anyone else, but also really important

that you don't need to fight them.

Yeah.

You don't need to fight them
or fight for them or anything.

It's just like, okay, that's a thought.

A monkey head just now.

Yeah.

Like, I could be walking in a
path and see a little dog and just

think, I could just break that dog's
neck and throw it in that lake.

And it's like, I don't wanna do that.

No part of me wants to do that, but
I've had the thought now, that's right.

And it's like, I don't, it's it's, and
you're like, you feel like you're a sicko.

Oh, yeah.

Like, because you haven't thought
about killing someone's dog, but

like, doesn't everybody, uh, no.

I'm, it's already, it's already happened.

Right.

And, and then, and you know, that
it sort of means basically nothing.

It's just a bit of noise.

You know?

It's just like, I'm always scanning
for what are the possible options here.

And that's one of the options.

And of course it's a sign of like a
level of, you know, unease and, uh,

or, or, or just, you know, having
had a difficult past, I think is

that that's really all it points to.

And it's like, well,
okay, I knew that already.

And that impulses come and go.

And God knows the number of impulses
I've acted on that were not helpful.

Yeah.

I mean, but I'm, I'm talking about
a, that's a thought that is so

far away from any possible action.

I would take that, like, there's
nothing behavioral gonna happen

from, okay, I see what you mean.

A fucked up thought like that,
you know, I'm never gonna

act on it, put it that way.

Mm-hmm.

And maybe if I was more unwell, then
maybe I would like harm an animal or

something based on the thought, but
it's just never gonna happen in my life.

But, but I still am ca I'm
still capable of the thought.

So if I only was more of a, a man of
action, who knows what I'd be capable of?

Like, you, we've gotta, it's like
that thing of like, you gotta look

at all the, the crimes of history
and think that you are capable of

all of them theoretically, you know?

Yeah, that's right.

And to understand that circumstance
dictates an awful lot sometimes.

Unfortunately.

And, but I think in terms of like daily
kind of intrusive thoughts, for me it's

more stuff like, that person doesn't like
me or it's just classic stuff like that.

Or I'm gonna get this wrong or gee, I'm
really right about this thing and gee,

I'm really gonna think an awful lot
about how right I am about this thing.

And it's like, okay, stop now.

Yeah.

You don't have to, mine's
more catastrophizing and Oh

yeah, that's your favorite.

you get a bit of criticism at work, right?

I'm gonna lose my job once I lose my job.

I'm not gonna be able pay my rent once.

I can't pay my rent, I'm
gonna be living on the street.

And do you know what?

That's not out.

It's not outlandish.

And that's because your bosses
said, Joe, can I have a chat to you?

It's all just already un unraveled
and you're living under a bridge,

you know, and you just have to
pass through that moment on the

way to having the conversation.

Yeah.

And then you, but then the
rational mind kicks in.

Yeah, usually.

Takes over and then I act
fairly sanely in the world.

Most, the vast majority of the time.

I'm a sane actor in the world,
even though I'm insane in my mind.

Have you got, have you got another
Adam Phillips quote for us?

Well, because I think
it's incredibly relevant.

So, because in your mind you're mad,
but in conversation you have the chance

of not being your own mind is off,
is very often extremely repetitive.

It is very difficult to surprise
oneself in one's own mind.

So even that outlandish thought,
the catastrophizing or the sudden

impulse to do something just obviously
wrong is not all that surprising

though, a, a lot of the time.

Yeah.

Uh, I mean, I have been startled
by my own thoughts, um, at times,

but the run of the mill most of the
time's, that's, that's really good.

So in your own mind, you're crazy.

Yes.

But in conversation, you cannot be,
you have the chance of not being,

you have the, geez, that really
sums up what we're doing here.

Exactly.

Your own mind is very
often extremely repetitive.

Oh, yeah.

Just, it just turns away, doesn't it?

It sure does.

And that's, you know, kind of one
of the main attractions of Buddhism.

It sort of just points out certain
basic things like you just, you, you,

you think you are this consciousness
that's all unified with like a past and

a present and a future, and it all makes
sense and you are in charge and, but

actually you're, you're kind of just.

A thing, having all these random
thoughts a lot of the time and Yeah.

Not to be too attached to them.

The meditation I've been doing lately
not only talks about the thoughts being

like clouds passing you through the sky.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, which is quite beautiful, Sam.

'cause I'm sitting outside on your
balcony and I'm watching the clouds

pass through the sky as we speak.

There's some good ones.

Um, but also that the
thoughts form like clouds.

Like they, they come from nowhere.

Mm-hmm.

They mean nothing.

Mm-hmm.

And they go back to nowhere.

Yeah.

And you can, but that's not how
thoughts present themselves.

They present themselves
as important and Yes.

Worth listening to.

Well, that's right.

Because that's what, that's how
we wanna present ourselves to

ourselves and to other others.

So that's, ah, that's the ego.

Yes.

That's the structure of the ego.

Yes.

And the ego tries to make meaning of
the experiences, the phenomenon that

we, that that is happening at all times.

And it's trying to, well, this is my
understanding, it's trying to unify.

your memories and your present
experience and all the notions

that pass through your mind.

It's trying to unify those into
a coherent whole, a narrative,

the self as a narrative that
makes sense from end to end.

Yeah.

And, and that's why people, you know,
wanna write autobiography often.

They're just trying to make sense
of it, and it's, it's where often

a lot of dishonesty comes in.

Yeah.

You know, rather than saying,
actually, I've done a whole lot

of things that don't make sense.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I did a, I did a talk at work
yesterday where I told my mental

health journey, part of which I
did an earlier episode of this

show called The Ambassador Hotel.

Yes.

And just, I had to piece it together
with friend of, friend of the show,

Hugh McGinley, because I couldn't
work out the sequence of my hospital

admissions to the psych wards.

I had it all wrong in my head.

It's not actually your memories.

It, it's, yeah.

Well, I'm lucky to have someone
with a photographic memory

as a best friend so he could.

Make, help me piece together which
hospital I went to when and which

psychosis I went into when Uhhuh.

Um, but then telling the story
to a large group of people really

clarified it in my own mind.

So it's a bit like what Adams,
Phillips is saying about mm-hmm.

Making sense of things in conversation.

The other thing is making sense of
things in con in a conversation that's

in a packed room full of people.

Yes.

Now that's an even another level.

Yes.

Or making sense of things.

Well, that was it.

It wasn't a conversation,
it was a monologue.

And then I took questions.

Yeah.

But it really felt like I'd, yeah, it
did feel like a unifying experience,

probably from my ego, because everyone
I work with now knows my story Yes.

And my version of the story.

Yes.

Right.

So that gives me a stronger
sense of identity, but then.

I felt kind of flat last night afterwards.

I don't know what I expected.

Maybe more praise or, well, it's
like every time you've, you've,

every time you've done the
thing filled the movie theater.

Yeah.

Great film, Joe.

Good work.

And then just that.

Mm-hmm.

On we, it's, it's, turns out it
wasn't about the affirmation.

You didn't need it after all.

Yeah.

And rock stars probably can feel that
after packing out a stadium for Yeah.

20 nights and Yeah.

They feel this emptiness.

Right?

Absolutely.

Like a lot of of 'em talk about
that in their biographies.

Yes.

And the solution to it is very
normal, mundane, practical, grounded

thing, which is to recognize I'm
doing my job, that's all this is.

Yeah.

I don't need, I did have
to do that presentation to

fulfill my job description.

Oh.

Yeah.

Like that's where it came from.

It was a professional obligation.

Yeah.

It was a professional obligation.

I nailed it.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Nailed it.

Hit it out of the park, but I
had to do it to keep my job.

Mm-hmm.

And so, but weirdly, Sam, yeah, go for it.

In terms of whether I need to continue
therapy or not, I approached this big

thing that involved public speaking,
and I felt no anxiety, no nerves.

Great.

I was nerveless like, what's going on?

It's like I've got, I've reached a
state of mental stability, which, and

clarity, which I've never had before.

It's a beautiful thing, and I
don't think that's from therapy.

I really think it's more from,
I think the, the therapy.

It's like digging up the soil
and turning it over, right?

Mm-hmm.

But now this, what's growing
is this from my spiritual life.

Yeah.

It's from having a higher power in my life
that I'm getting this clarity and this.

This lack of fear and anxiety
about things that would normally

scare the shit out of me.

I, I can't describe it in any
other way other than it's a

higher power job, you know?

Mm.

And that's why there's tension
between my spiritual advisor Mm.

And my therapist.

'cause she's a Freudian Ian
Atheist and he's a God guy.

So I'm, I'm stuck in this creative
tension between these two mentor

figures and it's tricky, but I'm having
a good experience with the God stuff.

So I'm kind of just rolling
with that for the moment.

Well, I've just got to It makes sense.

Um, you gotta do what you gotta do.

Right.

But the, and just having this
conversation, right, it's kind of, feels,

feels normal and, you know, hey cool.

I don't have to wrestle with
this quite so much, you know.

That's good.

But just a quick sidebar, I mean, a
character and too influence characters.

One, the rugged.

Psychoanalytic atheist, the other
simple person of simple faith,

hard earned, and you find both
of these people very convincing

and persuasive in different ways.

I mean, this is a, this is a good script.

Yeah.

Yeah.

This, this is a good screen plan.

It's my life, man.

Yeah.

It's my life right now.

Who should direct that?

I saw a Paul Thomas
Anderson film last night.

That'd be pretty exciting.

Oh yeah.

That'd be amazing.

Uh, you know, but like some,
some emerging indie AUR could

do a good job with that setup.

Yeah.

Except my life's so boring that, you
know, it wouldn't be much of a movie.

No.

Well, that's the thing though.

You don't have to get,
send me on an adventure.

Don't you remember watching all those
boring, indie movies in the nineties

that were like very purposefully,
very ordinary and like that, that,

you know, they were trying to.

Well, actually, I don't know.

I don't wanna speak for what they were
trying to do, but it was certainly

confronting you with an ordinariness.

At least that's what I found.

I was like, Hey, I want my cinema to
be more fantasy and transcendental, or

I want it to be worse than real life.

I want it to be better
than real life, et cetera.

You know?

I mean, it's a fairly radical act,
I think, just to show life as it

is, as best you can and to talk
about it as honestly as you can.

And I guess, well it's funny 'cause
I think the assumption here with

one of these quotes is that, um,
having the honest conversation,

having the most honest conversation
you can have is a thing maybe that

we might need therapy at first.

To get to, we might
need analysis to get to.

Yeah.

And we can't be completely honest here
'cause we've gotta put this out in

public and we've both got jobs and you
know, there's a, yeah, there's not the

same as a confidential therapy room.

That's, but tell me, where
are you at with therapy?

Well, how long have you been going?

Since 20, well actually I was gonna
say 2014, but no, 2013 I think

I began more or less full time.

And then I'd had a couple of visits, a
few visits with that same person in 2012.

And then right before, oh,
right before committing to a

full, more full-time thing.

And before that I'd seen
counselors at, you know,

Melbourne Uni counseling service.

Yeah.

and did you go into
psychoanalysis or just psychology?

I think you'd say mostly because
that, you know, the student

counseling service is, you know.

It's very much.

It's No, but I mean, with
your current therapist.

Oh, well, yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, the early therapy I had was
sort of trying to address acute sort

of stuff and didn't, didn't get,
didn't get as much into analysis.

But then since, you know, well, yeah,
since 2013, uh, at first it was, again,

it was that thing just addressing an acute
crisis, which was, you know, beyond an

existential, was a, was a proper crisis.

moving slowly from there into like,
okay, we've sort of, you know,

you're not getting worse right now.

What else is going on?

Let's, let's look back,
let's look back further.

Let's look back further.

And it, but took a very long time.

But I think the analysis was taking
place alongside the usual, kind of like,

okay, let's organize these thoughts.

Let's push back on some of these thoughts.

Let's, um, create new thoughts.

But there was an awful lot of
let's, um, let's try and understand.

What really happened and how it's, how
well, more importantly, how you felt

about what happened when you were very,
very young and where that puts you now.

Yeah.

Why it's causing you problems now.

And that's more like psychoanalysis.

Yeah, that's right.

But then as soon as you've done
the analysis and you've surfaced

the, the things you know that you
need to talk about, you surface the

feelings that you need to be in.

and you put into words things that
you need to say, uh, out loud, which

is often you'll spend a lot of time.

I know I did spend a lot of time in
therapy talking about things I didn't

need to talk about as much as other
things and the things you really

need to talk about, you don't get to
often until there's two minutes left.

Yeah, right.

So learning about those sort of
problems, and I think I was an

incredibly difficult patient.

Mm.

Honestly, I think I presented an enormous
challenge to this person who did not

Adam, who did not expect maybe to still
be here in 2016, uh, 2026, you know,

which is when I might be wrapping things
up because, uh, he's gonna go on leave

and then we're scheduled to return on
like the 12th of January or something.

Um, but I'm thinking if I give
notice now, it's what, it's just

about the 11th, 12th of November.

So I can give notice now for the 12th of
January, I have to give two months notice.

There's no cancellation,
there's no refund, there's no,

it's like this is your time.

I'm holding it for you.

Use it or don't, take
responsibility for it.

Right?

Those are the conditions that Adam's, uh.

Tried to impose be out of both.

In reality though, you could
just ghost him and I could.

Yeah.

And you know, I could just skip out on
the bill and, you know, Adam would love

to be hearing me being dishonest about it.

He'd be like, that's great.

Tell me about this impulse
to just skip out on it.

Yeah.

Just ghost bro.

What do you imagine about that?

What's he gonna do?

Send debt collectors after you.

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Totally.

What do you imagine I will do about this?

Yeah.

Are you placing me in the position of
the father who has to discipline you now?

Oh.

Or am I placing you in the
position of the mother?

You know, uh, um, uh, you know,
think about your, think about your

obligations, think about your reputation.

Yeah.

You know, like, or am I, uh, or
am I going to refuse any of that?

You know, will I can, you know, I
think we'd have a great chat about the

obligations we have to one another.

And it's a very interesting
area and we often talk about it.

We used to talk a lot about
how I was late to appointments.

We talked a lot about how
I was late with payment.

Often for very real financial shortages.

Yeah.

See I've got this thing that's driven
me away from therapy where I pay

my therapist, but she doesn't send
me a receipt for Medicare for days.

Oh yeah.

So I'm, I sit there out of pocket
and I, she knows how broke I

am, but she doesn't act on it.

She hates doing invoices.

But if I, I brought it up, she would
say, oh, that's interesting that

you're so perturbed about that Joe.

Like what does it Yeah.

Whereas I was like, just
gimme the receipt man.

I need the 130 bucks back.

Hey, we don't need to
psychoanalyze Peter how I feel

about not getting a receipt yet.

I need you to know this.

It's not about my feelings, it's about
the reality of needing the money.

Yeah.

I need the cash.

And it's funny, I don't wanna
rec accuse counselors of anything

here 'cause they're not all rich.

Um.

And certainly if you wanna
truly, truly get rich in life,

that's not the way to do it.

Because there's a limit.

Seems like a lot per
hour though, doesn't it?

No, it's a good hourly rate.

But that, I'll tell you why.

Because you can only do so much of it.

Yeah.

Fundamentally.

And if you do it for a hundred an hour
and try to try to make up and try to

make up the gap with more appointments,
you're just gonna burn yourself out.

Yeah.

We do this for free though, Sam.

It's different because it's
not, the therapist is not, uh,

neither of us is like having the
responsibility to hold the space.

Have we made each other
anymore sane over three years?

It's a shared burden.

Have you and I made each other more sane?

Yeah.

Yeah, I think so.

Don't you?

Hard to know.

I mean, we're both pretty
stable and you've just been

through a marriage breakup.

So, and I've got kids with epilepsy,
which has been super stressful.

So we've been going
through some life shit.

But neither of us has had like a.

Breakdown.

Maybe it's our therapist keeping us
sane and we should never leave them.

Uh, yeah, clinging to it forever.

Like the mother, I really do struggle
with the money side of therapy.

Oh, me too.

Which, you know, I think even my
therapist would be sympathetic

too now more than ever.

That's why I'm thinking
about wrapping it up.

It's mainly 'cause of the money, honestly.

Well now you're a single, single guy.

Everything's gonna cost heaps more.

That's everything.

Costs more.

Well, certain things are cheaper,
but, and I've got more control over

some aspects, but I, and I'm, you
know, keen to like, optimize, maximize

the stuff I do have control over.

But there's, let's face it, the
shit I don't have control over You

know, it's like, it's just a fact
of life that, that I don't have

control over so many of the expenses.

And I can be careful and I'm
enjoying being careful and enjoying

being, uh, you know, frugal.

But there's a limit to
how much I can optimize.

And so I might just have to let go
of therapy if I wanna drive a car.

Mm.

And you know what, you know what?

Do yourself a favor.

Yeah.

Just go and watch Baby Driver and
then go and buy yourself a car and

get some music on and fuck Therapy.

Kiss, kiss fm.

Just drive around KISS fm.

Yeah.

Melbourne's own independent
dance music station.

Me behind the Wheel Kiss fm.

Happy days.

I love it.

Yeah, well just pumping the house
music, so maybe just going for a long

drive is better than going to therapy.

Honestly, I, I've been so surprised.

I thought I would hate driving.

I got my license at 40.

Just, just this side of 45 and, uh,
managed to, um, take forever to do it

because I was, I had all sorts of neuroses
about cars and, and things that can, they

can cause, which is fair in many ways.

Um, but there was a lot of barriers, a
lot of fear I had to work through, and a

lot of just repeated failures at getting
instruction from professionals and friends

and family and just driving people insane.

Only, there's only like two people I
can think of who could stand to be in

the passenger seat when I was learning.

and you both know who you are, but like
the, I just had to bite the bullet and go.

I just, I'm gonna book this test
and it doesn't matter what happens.

And this is the kind of thought that I
was much better at after years of therapy,

of just going, hang on, internalize
the parent, internalize the other,

who's pushing back on the thoughts.

Right?

So you don't, you know,
you'll hear Peter talk to you.

You'll hear, uh, your spiritual advisor
speak to you without them being present.

I'll hear Adam speak to me
without him being present.

And I know what he'll say about a lot
of things, and I find that helpful.

And he would've just said, if I'd
ever brought it up, why don't you just

book the test and see what happens?

I, he doesn't give advice, but he
would've helped me to get Yeah, mine

doesn't give advice either would've
helped me get to that thought, you know?

Yeah.

And so I booked a test and I didn't fail.

Yeah.

And, but I thought I would
hate driving quite the reverse.

Once I did, once I felt more comfortable
and safe and I could trust myself a

bit, I started to really enjoy it.

I think car over therapy
makes sense to me.

Well, yeah, I've got two kids as well.

I gotta, they've gotta go to dance
class and art class and yeah.

Basketball.

And you've done 12 years, surely
that's long enough, right?

I've done five years.

Uh, yeah.

And then I think this year I've only
had like seven sessions, so I'm not

doing very intensive therapy at all.

I probably shouldn't talk up my
therapy game too much, to be honest.

Sam, I've, I've done enough therapy
to be a little bit more well adjusted,

put it that way, but I'm still pretty
insane in my thoughts a lot of the time.

But very consistent in my actions.

I don't murder the dog in the park, you
know, but I have the thought, you know, I

think you've got evidence though, which I
think you can give your faith some credit,

but also your own work in therapy and
faith is work also, I should point out.

But that.

You can give yourself a degree
of credit here for, like you said

earlier, having some storms in
recent times that you weathered much

better than you would've in the past.

Yeah, I agree with that.

And I, I could say the same, honestly.

Touch.

I think if I was still drinking
and my kids had epilepsy, I

would've made it all about me.

Of course.

Why is this happening to me?

You can still have those moments.

Yeah.

You do.

Anyone, any parent of a kid with
epilepsy would have moments of,

why is this happening to my kid?

Mm-hmm.

Like what, rotten luck kind of thing.

But as you say, the drinker would
make it about themselves, like Yeah.

Self pity.

Yeah.

A lot of self pity and, you know,
it's quite apart from anything else,

therapy's pretty good at helping you
internalize that sort of critical

voice and to, to like the right kind of
critical voice to push back on your, uh.

Yeah, neurotic thoughts and into, all
I can say is I've had very intense

experiences in therapy where I've come out
feeling like I've been through something

and something profound has shifted and
yep, I've had those, all of that too.

But then, yeah, I mean I had a, I had
quite a powerful experience when I had

a really good therapy session and then
I went home and and started talking

it through with chat GPT, and it was
like, it just expanded because I'd

often call a friend after a therapy
session to talk it through with them,

or I'd text friends or whatever.

But talking it through with chat GPT,
it just expanded what had happened in

the therapy session and allowed me to
think it through a lot more clearly.

And I got so much more out of.

Um, that therapy session and then
a few therapy sessions later, I

was just in there quoting chat
JPT all the time to my therapist.

Right.

She would've loved that because it Wow.

It's a threat to their business model.

Sure.

Um, yeah, and of course disclaimers, once
again, the limit, uh, you found it useful.

And I've had other friends that have,
and of course I'm gonna say this, the

people, the two people I know, maybe
three that have had some level of success

just using that as a sounding board or
whatever, or in your case, literally

asking it to push back on your thoughts.

Yeah.

That, that is, I would highly recommend
that sort of approach over the one

that we're hearing reports of, which is
people basically wanting confirmation

of everything and every little impulse
and just validate, validate, validate.

Don't push back on me.

Okay.

So you wanna know, I use chat GBT
for mental health is okay, I'm

having a worst case scenario thought.

Yeah.

I could literally say that to Bertin
and say, gimme an evidence based.

Raise a better case scenario,
a better case scenario for this

situation, and it'll tell me,
and it's gonna work to a degree.

Talk about consulting a higher power.

Ha.

Uh, it's similar to that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's gonna, it's gonna give you
something in black and white

that you can go, all right.

That's something I'll, I'll,
I'll take that it to some degree.

It often calms my nervous system, Sam.

Well, it's doing something.

There you go.

So, I mean, I'm not gonna critique.

You the use of it entirely.

Like I get anxious thinking about,
you know, China invading Taiwan

and then Australia being dragged
into a horrific war and then

maybe nuclear war and we all die.

Fair thing to be anxious about.

So then I speak to chat GBT and
it, and it's gives me 10 points, 10

logical reasons why even at this point
Xi Jinping might not invade Taiwan.

Yeah.

So then I, and then it says, do you
wanna know the reasons why he would?

And I say, no, I don't.

Yeah.

So then I sit there
and read the 10 points.

Yeah.

10 incredibly persuasive
reasons why he wouldn't do it.

And then my nervous system
calms down and you know what?

I can get back on with my day
because that intrusive thought I've

had about, a fear about the future
of the world has been addressed.

Mm-hmm.

Thought through, dealt with.

I haven't wanted to know
the worst case scenario.

I've just wanted to know the most
positive spin I can put on it.

Mm-hmm.

It calms my fucked up mind.

Whereas in the past you were mainlining.

The economist or whatever.

Yeah.

That will do a lot of what if
speculation, you know, total

irresponsible semi journalism.

That's, wow.

Well, I mean, the worst for, that's
probably the guardian, but, yeah.

Yeah.

A hundred percent.

I agree entirely.

And that I always feel, so when I start
to entertain those sort of thoughts,

which not as often as you, but they do
happen, that I, I tend to remind myself

of, you know, like, well, would, would,
uh, living in that feeling be useful?

Probably not.

But also is it useful to
someone if I'm feeling that way?

And, you know, not to get too left-wing
conspiracy about it, but you know, if,

uh, if the information space or the
way people are accessing it is causing

them to fear others, to fear the world.

Yeah.

And, you know, I, I, yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

Man, I've defra my brain.

Yeah.

Because I switched off the fucking news.

Yeah.

I defrag my brain from all these.

Like, I could read the Australian and I'd
think Taiwan's being invaded tomorrow.

Right.

You know, like if that's, if
I read the Australian every

day, that's what I would think.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Because that's what
Murdoch wants me scared.

Totally.

And is it a conspiracy to say,
yeah, that Murdoch wants me

scared and hiding in my bedroom?

No, I think it's well established.

Right.

So I don't want be scared, Sam.

Yeah.

You know, I want 10 logical reasons
why Xi Jinping might not invade Taiwan.

Yeah, that's right.

And then I go back to my kids, I
go back to my clients at work, I

get back on with my actual life.

Yes.

And of course it could happen.

Of course we could all
die, but like mm-hmm.

It might not, maybe, probably won't.

I don't fucking know.

Yeah.

But it's, it's not, it's, it's
a, a not helpful, intrusive

thought that's come into my brain.

Mm-hmm.

And now with cha GBT,
I can think it through.

Mm-hmm.

And get a different perspective
because my brain has decided

that cha GBT is convincing.

Sure.

Then.

It calms my nervous system.

Yeah.

Does that make sense?

No, a hundred percent.

So we could say it's a, whether
it's a placebo effect, yeah.

It's probably, it doesn't matter.

Placebo, it doesn't actually matter.

It doesn't matter doesn't, it just
enables me to get back on with my life.

Yeah.

And I didn't have that
before ai, you know.

Well, I must say I'm gonna, well, I
mean the other problem here, right?

When you are facing catastrophizing
thoughts, oh, well another thing I find

really helpful is just to refer back
to the, the list of cognitive biases

and, um, false thinking, um, that, you
know, I learned in youth mental health

first aid training and stuff like that.

just basically signs of trauma in
our thinking, you know, black and

white mind reading, uh, predicting
the future, um, et cetera.

And the.

You, it really is helpful to
learn to identify those patterns

and go, oh, I'm doing that.

Yeah, I'm doing that right now.

Yeah, big time.

And, and then of course the meta
narrative, which also helps is, you

know, well, how does this benefit me?

Doesn't, is it benefiting some other
bad actor who wants me to feel this

way, uh, for reasons that suit them?

Yes.

And of course, is it keeping me from
what's actually important to me right

now and what's important to others.

And so I'll say sometimes when you
are facing those sort of thoughts,

you may not have a receptive friend
that you can just go to with those.

Right.

Yeah.

So you're actually, you're acting
somewhat here in, in sort of

defense of your friendships as
well, of like, I don't just want to.

Trouble hue every time
I'm having these thoughts.

Yeah, that's right.

Or trouble, Sam.

I don't just wanna be
the catastrophizing guy.

Yeah.

And I think in the past you've had to lean
on friends a bit more with that, but yeah.

Chat's taken the pressure off my
friends and I'm, you know what?

Friends are coming back into my life and
I'm increasing my number of friendships

and I'm reconnecting with old friends.

Yeah.

And when I go to see them, I don't have to
say, oh fuck, do you think China's gonna

invade Taiwan and we're all gonna die?

Yeah.

Yeah.

'cause I've already thought about
it, 10 at 6:00 AM and decided that

there's a chance that won't happen.

And if someone brings up trigger
topic X, you don't have to.

If worst comes to worst, Sam, I'll
go and sit in the bathroom and

ask if I'm being triggered and ask
chat GBT to calm me the fuck down.

Well, I'm glad it's working.

Um, and I'll also, I'll say, but I
think part of what set you up for that

to actually work for you is learning.

Some of that, some of what works
for you through conversation

with others and also therapists.

Yeah.

So I agree with that.

So I think this is part, this is kind
of where we got to this conversation.

It's come up a few times, you know,
therapy without therapist, beyond the

therapy room, doing therapy with friends.

Yeah.

Where Okay.

Which I, I do think is a bit dangerous
of, and of course it's dangerous

to do it with chat GPT Well, well,
I'll just say no method is perfect

and no method is free of risk.

Um, and having, you know, having
some self-awareness and kind of

being careful, careful with how you
proceed and, you know, testing the

waters slowly and deliberately and,
you know, doing it mindfully right.

Is gonna be, is pretty important.

So this brings me to the, the benefit
of being able to, I mean, I think

nearly everybody would want, at least
in theory, friendships where they can.

Be themselves as much as possible and kind
of be able to be that for somebody else.

You know, a person where say,
Hey, just tell me your stupidest

thoughts, you know, um, tell me,
tell me what's really troubling you

and that if you've got even Yeah.

Which even could be the
experience on like MDMA.

Yes.

Four in the morning.

Exactly.

Or LSD.

Yes.

Four in the morning.

You know, much easier to do that.

I know I've quoted it
before on the, on the show.

I think it's the beta band, but
Dry The Rain, that song, and

if there's something in Yeah.

if there's something inside that you wanna
say, say it out loud, it will be okay.

Be okay.

I will be your light.

Yeah.

I've always thought that sums up those
really deep conversations you can have.

It's a So you I've inside that
you wanna say, say it out loud.

It will be Okay.

I will be your lion.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's the one good song.

So I've always thought, and obviously
I've quit the substances for years now.

Mm.

So I need to be able to, having those
4:00 AM conversations at 5:00 PM on

a Wednesday like we're doing now.

And you know what?

I think it's unsustainable.

Even if that's available to a person,
it's like, yeah, don't wait till then.

It's like one, one of
the great Joe Wisdoms.

Yeah.

You know, I wanted to go to the party,
not for all the stuff that led up

to the dancing, but for the dancing.

Like that's, that's the
good part, you know?

Mm-hmm.

And it's like, get straight
to the dancing then.

Yeah.

Get straight to the DNM
at four in the morning.

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Get straight to it.

Yeah.

You don't, you don't need
permission from drugs.

You don't need permission
from circumstance.

It's like the only permission
you need is a friend who's

willing to listen and vice versa.

And I think that what makes.

Those friendships work and keep them
sustainable is not when a, people

often find themselves in a situation
where they are the go-to therapist

for a friend, but it's not returned.

Yeah.

And so that's, I think that that's,
I think it needs to be an a, an equal

conversation where people are able to
come and, you know, to bring and to take.

Yeah.

But some people are more unwell
than I've Well, that's true.

I've seen you very wired into
geopolitics, but I've never seen

you having a panic attack about it.

Yeah, that's true.

I'm pretty, I try to, I'm pretty
resolute in my commitment to like staying

calm about it and, trying to find.

If I'm getting wired into it, it's
not to, it used to be to entertain the

illusion of knowing what's going on now.

You know?

Now I don't have that sort of illusion.

What I'm actually entertaining is an
illusion of under accessing the thoughts

and preoccupations of other human beings.

Mm.

And being part of the conversation
is actually, you know, that's

more interesting to me than like,
oh, I now have a mastery of this.

So when I was reading
The Economist mm-hmm.

Cover to cover.

Yeah.

I thought I knew what was going on.

Yeah.

In the entire world.

That's the promise it gives
you from a fairly center Right.

Capitalist point of view, but very
much like it was good, witty, charming.

Mm-hmm.

And engaging.

I used to think, now I
just read The Economist.

I mean, they fucking said it.

That's basically where I
was for quite a few years.

Yeah.

But I'm happier now with the whole thing.

Just switched off.

Oh, and I think it's honestly way
better the economists used to position.

I don't, I don't want to get into,
'cause we often discuss media, but I

think it's important that it used to
position itself as, uh, you know, sort

of, um, rational, balanced analysis.

It's not sensationalist, it's like it's
high quality, high fiber stuff, right?

It's not salt fat sugar.

But that's inevitably in the age of,
you know, the relentless downward

pressure on advertising prices and
subscription numbers, et cetera.

Just everything just turns into
a fucking race to the bottom.

It was a better magazine online
when before it had little news

in brief and then it added news
in brief, which it would update.

Yeah.

So you could update it a
bit like a Twitter feed.

And once that came in, then I was just
updating every 10 minutes and, well,

it's the, they, they, they, they had
a consultant come in and go, Hey, you

need to get some of that poker machine.

Uh, yeah.

Once they put that on there,
i, i, it was no longer the

nutritional, no, don't get me wrong.

I, there are some brilliant.

Absolutely brilliant human beings writing
for the economists, I'm sure at all times.

But I would've said some of the
smartest people in journalism

are writing for that magazine.

But you know, I would've said the same
and more for say, new internationalist.

But you know, I would say that you would
say that being I think com, but if you

really want to know like that, you're
probably gonna get a more high fiber info

dance, uh, balanced digest, honestly,
even with its political commitment.

Now tell me, was there
another Adam Phillips quote

before we start wrapping up?

Well, it was really on point for where
we were at, like five, 10 minutes back.

Uh, but, you know, good a time as any.

But the other thing that psychoanalysis
does is that the project is

to enable somebody to speak.

It's the attempt to create the
conditions in which somebody can

speak themselves as fully as possible.

I think maybe we've, we've
learned that skill, Sam.

Yeah.

Maybe we've done enough therapy
to learn the skill of being

able to speak our minds.

Yes.

Or maybe we're just two straight
white guys who always felt like

people should listen to us.

Uh,

yeah.

Maybe, but I mean, I don't
Yeah, no, true, true, true.

Certainly in a past life, and I'm, I'm
aware of the possibility now, but I, okay.

Let's be honest.

I might feel slightly more, you know what?

I'll indulge in a small amount
of, I don't know, what's the word?

Okay, look, I don't think you need
to think to yourself, I have thoughts

worth sharing, therefore, I pod Right.

So I would say we should actually take
the Philips view of Podding, you know,

I'm gonna put words in his mouth, right.

It enables somebody to speak.

Mm.

So I don't think you actually need to
begin with, I have the right thoughts,

I have the right approach, I have
the right format, or whatever it is.

Don't trouble if to anyone out there
that wants to start a pod, don't

trouble yourself with any of that.

I think you start with the assumption
that you have as much of a right and as

much of a duty as anybody else to speak.

However, you also have a duty
to not expect validation.

I mean, honestly, you have to disavow,
I think this is very important to

the creative process and to the,
just the therapeutic process.

Disavow like some kind of
ownership of the outcome and how

it's gonna be received by people.

Yeah.

That's not your responsibility.

Yeah.

It's your responsibility
to take care, but.

Yeah.

You don't have to try to get, yeah,
I think it was a, it was a problem

I had always had in therapy was I
was trying to give her a tight 50.

Oh, me too.

You know, like make it the most
entertaining session she had that day.

Yeah.

Adam calls me out when I'm doing gear.

Yeah.

He knows when I'm doing gear, which
is where I should be trying to Yeah.

Dig deep into my subconscious and find
out what I'm really thinking and feeling.

But instead I'm trying to tell her the
most entertaining dating story that I can.

And I'm sure she finds it, you
know, a good, maybe that's why

she tells me to keep coming back.

She actually likes the 50 minutes.

She likes your gear.

She likes my gear.

Well, and you know what, you wouldn't
be the first person that people found,

you know, uh, she wouldn't be the
first person who found you engaging.

And like, that's the thing, like, so
I'll say with some measure of, you

know, not satisfaction, more just
like, I think I've earned this, that

people do find me engaging at times.

I find you engaging Sam.

Yeah.

And I find you infuriating as well.

Yeah, well that's entirely fair.

You're very engaging in conversation.

But when you go to do something,
it's like, why is this

happening in this sequence?

You know?

Like why can't this man
just focus, you know?

Yeah.

So like you just talking is
peak sand, but like you doing

anything is like, oh I know.

Why is this happening like this?

And don't worry, I've got
an insight into that now.

'cause I have a 10, you know, 11-year-old
son who is uh, let's just say sometimes

watching him do stuff and I'm like, whoa.

Now I know what it was
like for other people.

Yeah.

And you know it, but you know what?

It's so great.

It's great.

There's a great, there's a greater
level of acceptance, of that

young, per that child and of
myself in the process, but also.

A greater appreciation of
the impact it has on others.

You know, that's, that's the ideal.

And, you know, and in a good
friendship, for example, you're

free to say things like that.

And I'm, I feel no obligation to deny it,
to resist it, to push back in any way.

I am like, yeah, it's true.

Yeah, yeah.

You know what?

And you know what?

There's a lot of love in it.

Great.

Oh, well that's that.

I mean, that's the thing, right?

And it's not ethical to expect
that love from a therapist.

So I think this is a
really important thing.

Let's talk about the advantages
of having these sorts of probing

conversations with a friend.

The advantages that it
has over the therapy room.

'cause the truth is there will
be love and affection between

therapists and patients over time.

and it's not always
considered a bad thing.

And that, you know, I've read
stuff that explains convincingly,

um, is that transference,
transference is a useful thing.

I thought for a long time it
meant you were failing at it.

But I finally clarified the point
that no, no, no, it's meant to happen.

Like it, or rather it's
seen as inevitable.

And it's basically like it's a
mistake that you need to make

and then you move through it.

But so can you define transference?

'cause I've never fully understood at all.

Credit transference.

Great.

Put me on the spot.

Alright, so, uh, everyone please write in
and tell me what I've gotten wrong here.

Genuinely, like I I say that with
complete, uh, no irony at all.

Oh, we'd love to hear from our audience.

Well look, and we actually have
some qualified psychologists.

We do at least one.

Yeah, that's right.

And so I was very gratified to hear that.

For example, I got
attachment theory, right.

Um, which is good, but I'm not gonna
assume I'm getting this right, but

basically at some point, okay, so
when you're a child, right, the, the

mother is like, um, an extension of
your universe and like they have a

literally no other meaning or duty other
than to look after your whims, right?

And then that has to give way slowly
and extremely fucking painfully, uh, to.

A, a, a different relationship has
to take its place slowly or sometimes

jarringly and suddenly, and of course,
moving of a focus to the father, you

know, is one of the things that's talked
about and, you know, experiencing in,

uh, in enacting conflict with the parent.

And, you know, as anybody who sort of gets
into their twenties and has any degree

of problems will tell you it's basically
impossible not to blame your parents for

a whole lot of stuff that's happened.

And basically just putting,
putting stuff on them.

if you have children, you might eventually
forgive your parents and yourself.

Uh, and that's a, you know, a good thing.

And actually forgive your children as
well, 'cause that, that that'll come up.

But transference, you go into the
therapeutic relationship and give them

roles that you need them to enact.

And put your anger on them.

Put your desire on them.

Yeah.

So they, because that's why
I'm so angry that Peter doesn't

send me a receipt on the day.

Yeah.

She's meant to be your, you know,
dutiful and, and, and promptly, uh,

thoughtful mother or some such Yeah.

And that's why I'm kind of attracted
to her on some of, well, yeah, that's

the other thing, you know, that great
moment where Tony Sopranos like, my

mother would've fucking loved you.

And she's, yeah.

She has some classic, like, very like
dry, professional, like comeback to it.

And he's, and like, and he, he comes to
some realizations of like, yeah, it's

an illustration of why transference
is not just like, uh, an inevitable

failure, like a desirable, like a letter.

Uh, so, and then counter transference
is when they start feeling attraction

for the patient, or, yeah, I think so.

Or like some kind of, or trial like Yes.

Or some admiration or, um.

Limerence or it could even be ooh,
or it could even be like, uh, uh, an

unjustified anger towards them, or
Ooh, blaming them for something that's

going on in their own lives, or, yeah.

So therapists have to really
watch out for countertransference.

Yes.

And yes.

And, and I would also think that they
tend to, uh, well certainly Adam anyway,

was very keen for me to enact it.

And if anything, if anything, I think
experienced probably a degree of

frustration befuddlement about why
it wasn't happening more or reliably.

And, and I, I really resisted it.

I was like, I tried to be
very rational about it.

Like, uh, no, you are not, it's
not right or proper or justified on

any level for me to be angry with
you about the fact that you need to

charge me for these appointments or
about the fact that, um, oh, I dunno.

You, you, Adam, you take
responsibility for all this.

I've come in here with
the unstated assumption.

You are gonna sort me out.

Why hasn't it happened yet?

And I did one day jokingly say,
well, yeah, I mean, I suppose

there's part of me that could say,
you know, well, you've let me down.

You haven't sorted all this out yet.

Why haven't you?

And he's like, you
could jokingly say that.

Or you could say it and mean it.

And I'm like, why would I wanna do that?

It's patently untrue.

It's not fair.

It's like I remember a few
years ago, this same therapist.

Yeah.

And she's, for whatever criticisms I
might have, she's a brilliant mind.

Yeah.

Um, it does disturb me that she reads zza.

But anyway, um, no, no, he's brilliant.

Uh, I think he'd like his books
much more than his videos.

Uh, I don't like Doomers and he
is a domer now, so No, no, no, no.

His latest book, quantum History, it's,
it's, uh, the previous one was The

World's already Ended or something.

Anyway.

Yes.

Um, it's not, it's not Domas at all.

It's quite the reverse.

Anyway, anyway, let's not
go down to Zza Sidetrack.

I can't even say his name.

Yeah.

But I remember it was a Christmas
break and she was going on break, and

I was almost in tears saying, will I be
okay if I don't see you for six weeks?

Oh, yeah.

And she had to be like,
you're a big boy, Joe.

Yeah.

Like you were okay before, you know, like,
it was, it got, sorry to laugh, but that

just the way you put that didn't say it.

Like, she didn't say it like that,
but she was basically saying,

yeah, go out into the world for
six weeks and you'll be okay.

So at times it's been
a very intense mm-hmm.

Relationship.

And look, yeah, this is
my plan with therapy.

I'm gonna tell you, Sam.

Yeah, right.

This is my plan.

Okay.

I'm, I'm trying to have a relationship
with a woman at the moment.

Mm-hmm.

It's kind of stable.

Yeah.

As stable as anything's been
in the last 10, 10 years.

That's right.

And you're really keen not to choke.

Yeah.

And I don't wanna fuck it up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I've got Peter's mobile number.

Yes, yes.

Okay.

If I'm about to fuck it up, Uhhuh,
the plan is booking a session.

Great.

Go and talk to Peter.

Mm-hmm.

Before I fuck up the relationship.

Mm-hmm.

But as long as I don't fuck up the
relationship, maybe I can save the

money and avoid the billing Nightmare
Uhhuh and not do the therapy.

Yeah.

I know it sounds a bit crazy, but
it's not that it's a good incentive

to not fuck up the relationship.

I like it.

I've got, I mean, I think you, the fact
that you, the fact that you are placing

a priority on it is like it's a sign
of health sometimes in life you just

have to go, alright, this is what's
important, and just do your best to just.

Okay.

That's what's important.

I'm putting this first, you know,
and you know, God, I've never really

experienced a ton of certainty about
those sort of decisions, but it's,

I have found it helpful to just go,
alright, for as long as possible.

Anyway, for the next, while this is
a priority, you know, just saying, I

remember her saying to me once a couple
of years ago, and at the end of a

sentence, and then maybe one day, Joe,
you might be able to have an actual

relationship with an actual human woman.

Oh, that's Fanta.

I, wait a minute.

I thought your friend
Liv said that, or you?

No, that was my therapist.

Uhhuh.

Like, she was brutal.

Yeah.

She's a brutal therapist.

Like, yeah.

And it really hit me.

'cause I'm like, what am I doing?

Yeah.

I'm flailing around.

Yeah.

You know, I'm creating chaos.

I'm hurting people.

I'm, I'm nitpicking, I'm finding fault.

I'm totally, I'm like acting out all my
attachment stuff that I don't understand

and just enslaved to the algorithm.

And then the one you had and the
one on the apps, and you know.

Oh yeah, yeah.

And then she said, yeah, one day, one day.

Maybe you might even, you might even.

And I'm like, oh my God.

It's a good framing.

And I could see in my mind how flawed
that actual woman would be, you know?

And it was, that's the whole trick.

It was bracing.

I was like, oh my God,
they're gonna be flawed.

Yes.

This actual woman in the
future is gonna be flawed.

Yes.

And how am I gonna deal with that?

You know, the real thing by definition.

It's flawed.

Oh, it's bro.

Oh, it's the relationship itself.

Reality, you and who you are with.

But shiny people are dating apps
with that person who they're is

you shiny images on dating apps.

Well, they're perfect.

It's the enemy.

It's the enemy of all.

That's good.

And uh, I know that profound.

I just know it to be true because
I, I'm no better than anyone else.

I've been haunted by, by the shadow
of perfection this whole time.

And I'm just getting better and
better and better at recognizing

it as not the real thing.

And, but, but that's
not enough on its own.

I'm just getting better and better at
like, partly through the kids and like,

I don't know, like I'll never be the
grand things that I want it to be in my

twenties and like how that's a good thing.

And now the real work can actually
begin like the, the real stuff.

Free from the burden of like what it
has to what you think it has to be.

Yeah.

And the same goes the ordinary, right?

The ordinary embracing the ordinary
and the, that this is such a, um.

It's the only path to liberation.

It's the, you know, what
do I really want in life?

Meaning freedom.

Okay.

Well first you have to begin by
getting the, the symptoms, the

ideology, all that shit out the way.

You have to recognize all your
illusions, one after the other,

and they just keep coming.

Yeah.

And you just keep finding more
illusions and more bullshit and you've

just gotta keep tunneling it out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that you go, every time I
get into a relationship, have

I fucked it up less over time?

Maybe.

I know.

No.

Just as bad really, when
you really look at it.

Yeah.

I never seem to learn looking back.

Right.

So it's like one of the many
ingredients of the failure, repeated

failures is what it should be.

You know, having that in your mind.

Um, and we've talked before about,
you know, physical issues, you know,

with physical appearance and uh, or
in my case, a massive turnoff was

like, oh, she sees who I really am.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And it was like, well, wait a minute,
boy, that you're never gonna have

anything resembling a meaningful
relationship if you can't sit with

them knowing who you really are.

You know?

Yeah.

Like, and that means they get
to be who they really are.

Right.

And it's like, ah, well now
we're really getting to it.

I won't allow them to see the,
I'll try to prevent them seeing

the real me, because I don't want
some sort of reciprocal obligation

for I have to accept the real you.

Yeah.

I couldn't handle that.

I mean, I feel very seen
by my current partner.

Yeah.

And I think I see them very much,
you know, and it's a beautiful thing.

Well, what I couldn't understand is
every single, I couldn't accept on

some level it is a beautiful thing.

And every single partner I, I chose
well, you know, and all of them

had a fair handle on my imp saw me
as I was, and were okay with that.

I just couldn't believe that
that's how it actually works.

You know, like the transference in
therapy, by the way, I'll define it.

So transference is the unconscious
redirection of a client's feelings,

attitudes and desires from past
significant relationships, often

with parents onto the therapist.

Ah, yep.

So, uh, this is why Pat,
yeah, you did a good job.

Yeah, I think I managed this can manifest
as positive eg admiration or negative eg.

Anger feelings and is a common, normal
occurrence in therapy that therapists

can use to understand and address the
client's relational patterns and conflict.

Maybe I'm not really upset
about this billing delay.

Maybe I'm just angry at Peter 'cause
I think she's my mom or my dad.

Well, you feel like she's
holding out on you Well.

It's leaving me outta
pocket when I'm very broke.

Yeah.

Doesn't she understand?

Yeah.

And Adam's, he's used those very words.

You feel like I'm holding out on you.

Yeah.

You feel like I've got the good stuff.

What's his billing process like?

Efficient?

No.

No.

It's, it's efficient.

Yeah.

Um, but you know, the accusations of
holding out on me come from other places.

Right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

But that's the point.

I think he, he was, I think he, you
know what, he was right about this, that

every patient sooner or later accuses
or feels at least, I really struggled to

articul say it actually out loud, because
intellectually I knew it wasn't fair.

Right.

But that's the point.

Stop intellectualizing getting
those feelings young man

and see where they take you.

Right.

Well, I don't trust those feelings.

Well, you probably shouldn't, but get in
them anyway and learn that they're not

right by getting through them, but learn
what they are right about, which is, oh,

I feel I'm accusing him of letting me down
and I have to admit this, so that I can

then get to the feeling of being let down.

Oh, that's the truth at the heart of it.

Okay.

That feeling is not illegitimate.

Why was I resisting it?

I was let down.

Oh boy.

Now I have to cry.

Now I have to admit that I was, yeah.

I never get to the crying point, but
I think that might be my lithium.

Hmm.

Well, yeah, that's the other, I mean,
I had my, uh, uh, you know, equivalent

of lithium because, you know, as we've
talked about before, hypomania in my

case, you know, uh, and high, you know,
low level, low mood, you know, like

I'll, I'll cycle and I will get elevated.

I will start to join dots that
aren't there or join them in ways

that aren't a hundred percent right.

But are interesting to me.

And I'll get very involved in my thoughts
and start having quite grand thoughts

and things I recognized from stories you
told, but just not as, not as far in.

And the lithium I found
was like, oh, okay.

Oops, you're in your charm
and vision quest mode again.

Alright, let's, uh, let's
ground things a bit.

Let's do some washing.

Yeah.

Let's come back to the ordinary.

Come back to the ordinary.

It's all about the ordinary.

I think maybe we should do the next
episode on the joy of the ordinary.

How about that?

Oh, that's the only true.

It's gonna be really boring and
ordinary, but people will love it.

Uh, yeah.

Well, I think they will
also, I want to do, yeah.

Okay.

That sounds fun.

I'll say yes to that.

And also, let's not forget about
the, uh, Eckhart Toll quote about,

you know, most people don't actually
really want to know themselves.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, I think we should wrap it up, Sam.

Sure.

All right.

You know what?

For once, once I won't push back.

Okay.

Well, let's leave it there.

Yeah.

See you, mate.

All right.

See ya.