The Ten Thousand Things

Hello and welcome to the 10,000 things.

My name is Sam Ellis.

My name's Joe Loh Attraction.

Gonna talk attraction.

Sam, why is it often
capricious and fleeting?

Hmm?

What things influence or even determine.

Our perception of appearance and
attractiveness, is it just purely

biological and all of our instincts are
100% correct or, or unavoidably coming

from our nature in some basic sense?

Or is all of that powerfully shaped by
culture and marketing and we have to

deconstruct our experience of attraction
in order to get to a more real place?

Yeah, I think this comes out of
the last episode towards the end.

I think I said something like I've always
been trying to date, um, Thurman from

Pulp Fiction because I was, you know, 16
at the time and actually my first partner

when I was about 20, 'cause I was a bit
of a late bloomer, had a real, um, Thurman

haircut, kind of dark hair kind of look.

I think we both did very well.

With our first significance.

Yeah.

So I mean, in terms of attraction,
I was joking with you before the

show that what we're just gonna
talk about boobs, boobs and bums.

We can talk about boobs and bums.

We can talk boobs and bums.

Yeah.

Well I used to be more of a boob
man than I became more of a bum man.

Uh, but I think what you're saying
is it's a lot more complex than that.

Of course.

Yeah.

Because I, yeah.

I also want to be sort of tortured
and pushed away and Well, yeah.

All that stuff.

Absolutely.

'cause you're leaving
something really important out.

The real question we're asking here
is not just, why is attraction?

Why do we all experience
attraction as a bit of a mystery

that we struggle to explain?

And people just end up saying
things like, well, I don't know.

There's just something
about him, her, them.

That I can't define and or
I have a type and that's it.

And people just sort of surrender
a lot of the time with it.

Um, which, you know, but there
are conventions of beauty, right?

But there are conventions.

And where do the conventions
come from these days?

2025.

Uh, I mean, innumerable sources,
but to put it simply, it comes

from the blob, the algorithm, you
know, that we're all swimming in.

Yeah.

Like, and that's determined by
now by millions and millions

and millions of people.

But it's also those classic things
of like, someone who's at Attract,

considered a universally attractive,
actually just has incredibly

symmetrical features and all those
like, oh, I'm glad you, I'm glad you

mentioned symmetry, because Yeah, sure.

There's a level of scientific
validation for the idea.

We find symmetrical faces more attractive.

But do you remember the most
famously asymmetrical face of,

say the early to mid nineties?

Shannon Doherty.

Oh, okay.

Go on.

I rate it.

Yeah.

Right at Shannon Doherty asymmetry.

Yeah.

Not bad actually.

Interesting.

Yeah.

But there is a conventional beauty where
I, I could say that person is beautiful,

male or female, and you would know,
probably know what I'm talking about.

I'm not gonna think you're
crazy 99% of the time, like

Brad Pitt in Thelma and Louise.

No, I was, I actually, I'll say
that's a young Brad Pitt Sure.

Meet Joe Black.

You can't go wrong with Brad Pitt.

You can't.

But leaving aside whatever about
his personal life, but I'm gonna

say Brad Pitt in Fury The Tank one.

Okay.

You, you gotta be obscure for me, mate.

I don't know what that, how
come the World War II movie?

No, I haven't seen it.

He's in the tank and it's pretty tragic
and heroic and there's funny moments, but

he would have a very symmetrical face.

Oh yeah.

Like there's a reason.

Yes.

And there's obviously the
body as well, and Yes.

Like when I mentioned last
night, I No, but there's a dash.

There's a way he moves.

There's a way he speaks.

Yeah.

He could be half as attractive
and I would still find him hot.

Yeah.

There's a lot of that.

Yeah.

Uh, someone, uh, I work with said they
don't go on dating apps because You can't,

the picture does not give you the hotness.

They, they need to.

Um, well, they said they can't go
on dating apps because they need to

see how someone moves in the world.

I have the kind of beauty that
moves, said Arnie DeFranco.

Yeah.

And, and I'm not someone out there in a
day like my strongest, my strongest suit

isn't just a still photograph of me.

That's not my strongest suit.

It's not, it's not horrific.

It's not a deal breaker for everyone,
but it's not where, like, whereas

how I move in the world, my, my
natural charisma that I can have.

And Charm has always been my
strong suit and my ability to talk.

Yeah, yeah.

Where I can't get across the
still, the still photograph

does not capture the Ty Yak.

Absolutely not.

Like I, I can't get that across.

And so dating apps, I'm
already pushing shit uphill.

No, no.

You've got a handicap.

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think most people do ultimately.

Have a handicap when it comes to a
two dimensional representation of what

they can offer another human being.

But I admired my colleague to say
for saying, I can't tell if I'm

attracted from a photo, therefore
I just won't use dating apps.

Okay.

Why do you admire that?

Because for 10 years I've wished I
could just decide to not use dating

apps and never go back to them.

Oh, so you you admire the clarity
and the decisiveness of it?

Yeah, and that's someone
who's much younger than me.

You'd think she would be dating
and getting out in the world and

whatever, but she's happy just to
chill in between partners and not

be window shopping on a dating app.

'cause she knows that a still image
can't tell her what she needs.

She doesn't give her the
information she needs.

So she, she has to get out in
the world and meet people and

see how they move in the world.

That's right.

Can we, sounds like she's got a, a degree
of secure attachment going on as well.

She's not desperate to like
fill the, the parental.

You know, mommy, daddy void.

someone come and tuck me
in and make me feel better.

Well, not to get too Freudian on
you, Sam, so early in the show, but

is it all just about the parents?

Well, do you all, do we
all just wanna read it?

How does that work?

Because like, photos of my
mom in her twenties mm-hmm.

She was an incredibly attractive
woman and it raises some odd

feelings in a, in, in a sun.

It's true.

It doesn't, I don't, I don't
even know if I'd go that far.

Maybe it's just so wrong that I wouldn't
even allow myself to think that.

But she's objectively was a very
attractive woman and probably

still is for a 74 or whatever.

Oh, no, no.

I, I, ab a hundred percent.

I, I would, I would date your mom.

There you go.

Wow.

Okay.

She's also a very difficult woman, Sam.

Yes, I'm aware of that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, I think.

Actually say she's already stopped
listening to the show because we

bagged out the boomers too much.

So I was about to say all my g all my
partners have been difficult, but no, I've

been the difficult one, let's face it.

So I probably de, I probably deserve
to be with someone difficult, honestly.

So do you have a model in your head
of attraction that you are Yes.

That you've always been gunning for?

Do you have a No, but it's strange.

Do you have a nineties equivalent
of, I, I think the ones for

me are like Monica Lucci.

Great.

Classic and, um, Thurman.

And then more recently,
probably like an Anne Hathaway.

Um, interesting.

You raise Anne Hathaway.

Yeah.

'cause I'm halfway there.

I think.

I think she's amazing.

Did you see her as Catwoman?

Yes.

But it, wow.

For me it was a misfire.

In fact, the whole Catwoman
thing never works for me.

There's something too contrived about it.

It's like I'm supposed,
oh, it works for me, Sam.

I'm supposed to like it.

It works for me on a very base level.

Now I'm gonna, no, but
here's what I'll say.

I think the Catwoman thing
would mean far more to me.

If it was a real person in the room
and I have like a particular person

in mind, right, that would do far
more for me than Michelle Pfeiffer

or Anne Hathaway or any of the others
that have, that have played that role.

Another one was nineties Drew Barrymore.

That was a real, like,
she had a cutesy thing.

Drew Barrymore was like,
mana, pixie dream girl.

Yeah.

It just, it just helped me understand
that's how I came to understand that I

was clearly attracted to women and there
were, I wanted to grow up and, you know,

like, but I, I didn't, I was a dorky gorky
teenager who didn't have a girlfriend.

Sure.

You were late.

We were both late starters.

But I could look at, you know,
drew Barrymore on the cover of a

magazine and be like, oh my God, I'm
having so many feelings right now.

I found her cute.

I liked her in a kind of, I subconsciously
sensed this person is damaged and

crazy like me, and that made me like
her, well, that would go as a friend.

I think I really wanted to be her friend.

I thought she was cool and I
would like to hang out with her.

I think, I don't think I felt
strongly physically attracted to her.

I think damaged and crazy has been, yeah,
there was a, this is like not gonna work.

It's not gonna work as a joke
'cause it's like a third hand joke.

But someone told me about a standup.

Yeah.

Who said, and this, I
really identified with this.

Mm-hmm.

I can be in a room of
beautiful people at a party.

Yeah.

And I'll be attracted to the, the
weird woman who's sitting in the

corner like cutting themselves.

Yes, sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Like, and that's been my whole, apart
from the one big exception of, I've

tried to be the interesting one.

And then when I'm not trying Yeah.

I mean, my dating history is the Yeah.

Dark and fucked up women, apart from
the one woman I had children with who

was a very happy, bright, sunny person.

Mostly not anymore.

Yeah.

'cause she had kids with you.

Yeah, probably so.

It's not her fault.

Yeah.

It's probably not as light
and breezy as when I met her.

Oh God.

What did I mean, aren't we all
be broken and burdened by the

weight of the world these days?

But yeah.

What did I do to that poor woman?

I mean, something similar to what I did.

Like just Yeah.

Just be an absolute needy fucking mess.

Yeah.

And unaccountable for a lot of behavior
and then gradually sort it out.

But once it's too late, you know?

Yeah.

But with her, in terms of
attraction, it was like a Lara

Croft kind of, it was instant.

There's like a Lara Croft.

Yes.

Kind of like overwhelming physical
thing that was just very simple and

kept me going for many, many years.

Totally.

You know, and not, not to be weird
about it, but I think of all the

people you've been associated
with, I think the strongest choice.

Like, you know, I like,
I think you made a good.

Choice.

Yeah.

And we have two beautiful
children, so there you go.

Yes.

And I don't just mean the personality,
I mean, I understand what you're

referring to because you asked me earlier
about, well, you know, did I have an

ideal when I was say 16 or whatever?

And yes, I did.

Uh, and it's, it involves
brown hair, curly brown hair,

and, uh, not, not too thin.

Well, which is a purely a
subjective statement, right?

Yeah.

But, um, but that has
changed over the years.

It's, well, I think I had a very
shallow feel field or, uh, shallow

aesthetic in more than one sense.

It didn't, as in, I, I didn't have
a full appreciation of all the

layers of a person that com, that
contribute to attractiveness when you

actually really assess it properly.

Uh, or rather don't assess it,
just experience it rather than.

Filtering and judging, uh, which
is not an easy thing to do, but

as someone with a background in
meditation, in theory you can get there.

but at the time it was also shallow in the
sense that, you know, it was superficial.

It was just more or
less a particular look.

But it, it was also,
it also had a flatness.

I didn't have that many reference
points in popular culture

for what I was interested in.

Yeah.

And I remember, I remember
saying to a friend, I, am I

supposed to think this is hot?

And maybe it was a picture of
Al McPherson or, I dunno, Jenny

Garth or someone like that, right.

And I'm just like, it's not
moving the needle for me.

Like, is there something wrong with me?

I remember people talking about who they
had crushes on, on tv, and I'm like.

I don't feel that way about anyone.

So who was the first one from
Popular Culture that clicked for you?

Oh, man.

That's such a good question.

Uh, I think yes, Catherine's Eda
Jones in the in, in the Darling

buds of May Zea Jones Class Act.

Oh, that's a, that's a,
yeah, that's a refined taste.

Sam, thank you.

I'm a man.

I'm a, I'm a gentleman, I believe,
but yeah, I think Monica Lucci

falls in the same category
of like a gentleman's choice.

Oh yeah.

Just, just classy.

Just a couple of classy.

It's a refined selection.

That's right.

And I like to think that I'm
a refined selection, right.

That I'm not for everybody.

No, you're more of a rough diamond.

Oh, thank you.

Thank you.

Yeah.

And not everybody wants a rough diamond.

A lot of people want.

A car that'll start every time and
get you from A to B reliably and,

and, uh, have conventional appeal.

But did and yeah, and, and, and a
bit of, um, what do you call it?

A bit of prestige.

That's what some people want.

Did you have the same experience
in your twenties though, of

having had a gorky teenage years?

Of course.

Not doing too well with the ladies.

No, no.

I had no idea.

And then suddenly being like, how am I
with this incredibly attractive woman?

Yes.

How did I pull this off one?

Am I, you know?

Yes.

Um, like, and I still, to this
day at 45, don't exactly know.

I have some more conscious idea of
what my charms might be, but it still

just, well, you should have, yeah.

It's still just like.

One of the few benefits of middle
age is like a greater level of

self-awareness and self-acceptance.

Right.

You know, you don't have to wonder whether
you're good enough as a person anymore.

Like just, just it.

It is what it is.

If you're not good enough,
you'll never be good enough.

If you're good enough, if you're
good enough, like just, I keep

going on dates, Sam, and just
going too deep on the first date.

Oh, that's a like getting
into like trauma stuff.

Exactly.

That's exactly what I would do.

Oh yeah.

It's, um, can I advise you, I'm
sitting here extremely single while

we have this attraction discussion.

I'm glad you've mentioned this, right?

Because two things we, we need
to, like, this conversation is

different when you're single, right?

That's the first thing.

But the second thing is the real reason
we're talking about this, the hook

for me is at the end of that last pod
you said, we started talking about,

I dunno how we got onto it, right?

But dip back into the last episode
to refresh your memory if you want.

It's in that last five
minutes, 10 minutes, and then.

I you said, am I destined to be alone
because I get put off too easily,

basically was the thing you said?

Mm.

Will I just continually fuck it
up with perfectly good people?

Because I just don't
seem to have any control.

I,

I don't seem to be able to
live by a realistic standard.

And the woman I was
talking about, Sam mm-hmm.

I sent the episode to her.

Mm-hmm.

And she's not really
talking to me at the moment.

Mm-hmm.

But she gave it a heart, as in
she might have actually listened.

So yeah.

Maybe even this episode is a way to
communicate with that person and that

person as well as Oh, you lovely audience.

Of course.

Absolutely.

And of course, that person would 100%
understand the pain of feeling as though

that that true attractiveness is a
complex thing made up of lots of things.

And then it gets boiled down to
something far too simple and reductive,

which does so many people dirty.

You know what I think about
sometimes it's unfair.

You know what I think
about sometimes, Sam?

Yeah.

It's the late sixties
and you're John Lennon.

Mm-hmm.

That pretty much means you can sleep
with pretty much anyone you want.

Sure.

And, and you choose Yoko Ono.

Yes.

I think about that sometimes.

I think it's a, I think it's
where he wanted and that's,

and, and in a positive way.

I think you just found someone who
you thought was so fucking cool.

Yes.

That even though you could have
dated a supermodel if they were

even invented in late sixties.

Yes.

You chose No, they had
Twiggy and the Yeah.

You, yeah.

You're the ultimate poet
on the planet, right?

Yeah.

Apart from maybe Bob Dylan.

Sure.

And your Sure.

You, you're the ultimate
rockstar and all of that.

And you choose this unusual
Mick Jagger slight Yeah.

You know, whatever, whatever you
wanna say about, I'm not saying that

Yoko is ugly, I'm not saying that.

I'm just saying he could have gone towards
a conventional and he did beauty and

taken his pick and he chose Yoko Oro.

Why?

Yeah, because they vibed.

And when I think about this person
who I sent the podcast to mm-hmm.

We vibed, you know?

Yes.

Like we were hanging out was fantastic.

It was really special.

And we just got each
other and all that stuff.

That's right.

But I balked and said, I can't do this.

'cause I wasn't sure about the attraction.

Oh yeah.

Look, I, and I'm gonna be honest
with you, I've judged you for this.

Uh, but the truth is, and we'll get
into this, that I too have experienced

this, of suddenly finding someone not.

At all when I felt quite the
opposite, not long before the ick.

Oh, that's what the kids
talk about is the ick.

The ick.

And just catching people in the
sudden wrong light, the wrong angle.

Oh.

And just losing it.

I lost, I lost another
great woman back in 2020.

Mm-hmm.

When I caught her on a
strange angle in a bathroom.

Oh, I lost, yeah.

Another great woman when I saw a photo
of her parents and thought, wow, if

you end up looking like that, I can't
stick around for man, another 30 years.

Okay.

Yeah.

Tick, tick, tick.

Like, just, just moments.

And then the kids are really into the ick.

They, they just, they talk about it.

Once they get the ick, they're out.

And do you know what?

I identify with a lot of moments from
like, you know, crossover youth culture

from like the last few years in fact.

You know, I don't wanna boast, but I feel
like I'm on a wavelength to a degree.

Right.

Because there's like that 2020 year
gap, and I feel like a lot of the shit

they're talking about is do familiar with.

I go, okay, with my 16-year-old kid.

Yeah, I can go.

Okay.

You, we, we, we can see eye to eye.

Does she talk about the ick?

No, I don't talk to her about dating.

No, no, no, no.

But does she ever No, no, no.

Think of anything.

No, no.

Yeah.

Let's be fair.

Let's, that's, let's, let's avoid it.

But did have you heard
her mention the ick?

No, because I remember seeing the,
when when I talk about kids, I'm

talking about people who are like 27.

Oh yeah, no, of course, of course.

Yeah.

And I think, but I will say this, that
one of the things from youth discourse

that I've most strongly related to
in recent years is the ick, right?

Because I can remember feeling that
way almost all the time about everyone,

no matter how perfect you feel the
ick all the time about everyone.

Well, no, anyone that
I was close to, right?

Yeah.

So the, the ick is only strong.

If you are already close.

So that's a really important thing.

It's basically, yeah, I think that
probably the most foundational piece

of like life experience I can offer
here is I don't get particularly

turned on or turned off by strangers.

It's, it's when it's up close
that the strongest attraction and

the strongest repulsion occurs.

Yeah.

Up close.

I mean, like the irony for me is I can put
myself together pretty well these days.

Mm-hmm.

With a couple of different outfits
and look okay on the street.

Yep.

But if you want to catch me like
behind closed doors, it's not that

hard to catch me on a pretty bad angle.

And so what you are saying is, and
get the ick, like if women acted the

way you did, you'd never get any.

Well, I've got a friend who's
a perfectionist about women and

he goes to the gym four times
a week, runs and eats her.

The vegan diet.

So he is willing to earn it.

You are saying he owns it, right?

He earns it, he earns the perfectionism.

Mm-hmm.

And then he dates more conventionally
attractive women than who I date, but

I don't want to be in the, does he have
average tastes, if you see what I mean?

Is he like a bit, is he a bit normative?

Is it a bit narrow?

Yeah.

It's, it's, the photos I've seen
of women who's dating tend to

be conventionally attractive.

Yes.

Whereas I am more drawn to that woman
in the corner cutting themselves.

Sure.

Sure.

So I, I want conventionally attractive
plus really dark and fucked up.

Mm.

Like, but maybe not even that convention.

Maybe unconventionally attractive mm-hmm.

And dark and fucked up.

Mm-hmm.

And then that's who I actually
date for the most part.

Yeah.

You know, and this person who, I
can't name who, who, who might or

might not listen to this episode.

Mm.

It's probably in that category a
bit, you know, traumatized a bit.

Mm-hmm.

Got some demons and
experienced rejection and.

Yeah.

And being on, being on let's, you
know, let's say I felt when I was

16, 18, 20, actually, no, not 20, but
when I was 16, 18, I felt that this

world of attraction was very unfair.

I felt that it was weighted firmly
against me, that the prevailing

standards did not include me whatsoever.

And this might sound strange coming
from like a pale skinned, uh, tall

male, but like, I felt that I was
too skinny, far too skinny, like

not a little bit far too much.

And I also felt that I, that I lacked
the sort of tone and athleticism

that was the convention, and I
didn't have the right skin tone.

Like I didn't, you know,
tan particularly easily.

and I was not really at home with sporting
sort of activities, which I think were.

Pretty much hand in hand with conventional
male attractiveness in the nineties.

And I don't just mean the Gods like
Michael Jordan, I just mean conventional

Australian attractiveness and masculinity
included a level of sporting prowess and

you know, having a tight rig, I think.

Yeah.

Is that where it still is?

Yeah, I'd say so.

Yeah.

Like for the mainstream?

Yeah, for the Normies.

I mean, I watched a complete
unknown last night and Timothy

Shama say Surname Shaima.

Yeah.

Timothy Shaima is a skinny, skinny
guy in that movie and he's like the

hottest guy on the planet right now.

So maybe it's shifted.

Well, yeah, someone said he is, and a
bunch of people believed it, but, but

I think, I think he's universally cons.

I mean, I'm said I'm not gonna
rob anyone of their agency,

but are they actually frothing?

I dunno.

It's like, were people actually
frothing for Damon Alban Like, yes,

but is it also a mass hysteria thing?

Yes, it's a bit of both.

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

It's like, oh, so you're saying
some, you're saying we can't actually

decide who we're attracted to.

We're just told who told,
who we're attracted to.

Okay.

So some of it's incredibly conscious and
overt, like you will find this person hot.

Like there, there's a lot of that
sort of signaling that goes on.

Then there's some much more subtle
stuff that goes on, uh, you know,

sort of skinner and positive and
negative reinforcement that goes on.

And then there's stuff which like
superficially passes for dating and

relationship advice, which is also
normative and is helping to define the

parameters of attraction to a degree.

Right.

So not image-based, like word-based
stuff, which is influencing us and

we're also being influenced by.

Things that are not, are only tangentially
related to like the appearance of human

beings, such as design and interior
design, but, and the kind of house

people live in and the car they drive.

There's like so many layers to this,
but isn't it, whether they drive a

car or not as a man is, is it, is
it uncaught if a man doesn't drive?

You know, it's, there's all these layers
to it and some of it's economic, your

ability to provide some of it's prestige.

Does this, is this person admired and
respected by others but isn't others?

But isn't the ick more vis
visceral than that, isn't it?

The I is on so many levels.

The IIC isn't the ick.

Like, I've caught you in a bad angle.

I, okay now I can't see the same anymore.

That's sometimes it's a visual.

I've a few of those.

Sometimes it's a visual,
but other times it's no.

There's no visual data
here that's putting me off.

Yeah.

But there's behavioral data that's me off.

But it's like this guy can't
pick me up in his car 'cause

he doesn't have his license.

He's hot.

That's been your story till recently.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

There there was a girl who was into
me and I was into her and she was

like, but I'm an old fashioned girl.

You need to pick me up in your
car and take me on a date.

And I'm like, that doesn't sound like
the kind of person you would date.

Uh, absolutely not.

It was a weird situation.

It was a hospitality situation.

Oh yeah.

But here's the thing.

You know what this person is
really worth talking about?

Because it's one of these things.

That I was drawn to
her in spite of myself.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So is that in fact an auth,
more authentic attraction than

the like, this feels right.

This ticks all my boxes.

This is very me.

I actually think, yeah,
that's that real raw.

It's that raw.

Like, dammit, there's something
about it we've gotta get together.

But I just find her really annoying.

Yeah.

They're the best.

They're the best.

Put like a few times, and she
found me intensely annoying too.

Yeah.

A few nights with that
person is wonderful, I think.

But not a relationship.

No.

I often think, did it actually.

Would've gotten to a really good place
because we annoyed the absolute shit out

of each other and would fight at work.

Oh, that's hot.

It is kind of, I'm getting, yeah, getting
a bit steamy just thinking about it.

Me too.

And she would, she would, I know,
seriously, can I indulge this?

So it's the, it's the year of
our Lord, 2005 or six maybe.

And I'm working at the, the Cumberland
Resort in lawn, in the conference center.

And this person's also working there, and
I think they were also working at another

restaurant occasionally that I worked at.

So it was like very much a just
loose hospitality rats around lawn.

Um, there was a lot of bed hopping.

I was not, I tended to
be just a monogamist.

Um, but this person was, I would say, you
know, definitely easily an eight, right?

Physically.

But then I would get, I at one
stage would've given her a one for

personality and like personal politics.

But then where I actually ended up is.

I actually think her per personality was
actually oddly even more engaging than

her appearance in the, in the long run.

And so she would say these incredibly
conservative, like she grew up

in like a fairly straight laced,
buttoned up, conservative sort of

suburb with high social prestige.

This is so steamy.

She's like just wrong side of the tracks.

Look, she went to the right schools.

Yeah.

And you are just this wild Harry Krishna.

She could not work me out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I was not like any of the dudes that she
would ever choose to spend time with.

Yeah.

And vice versa.

Yeah.

I'm like, on paper, you
annoy the crap outta me.

And in reality you do and
you express these incredibly.

Backward, profoundly
un feminist sentiments.

Like, I wanna be treated like a princess.

I want a man to pick me.

That's a whole movement on the
apps now you realize, oh my

God, she was ahead of her time.

Yeah, that's like tread wives
and also just women who Yes.

Uh, want you to book the date and
make all the, make all the decisions.

Do you know what?

No, I'm not.

That's, I can't tell you how
common that is on dating yesterday.

I'm not gonna fault that
you make some decisions.

God damnit.

No, but you tell I'm not,
I'm not against that.

You do it all.

No, it's, it's kind of creepy.

It's kind of very like 1950s.

Mm.

I'm helpless.

It's that vibe.

It's lazy.

Come on.

We've had however many decades of feminism
can't we just work out together, which

like venue we're going to for a date.

can't we have a back and forth?

Do you really need me to
take the reins on this?

Uh, I think, okay, put it this way.

Sometimes you just want someone
to decide what we're having for

dinner because you're tired.

Yeah, that's fine.

Right?

It's hot when someone
else just sorts shit out.

Sometimes.

Can we agree?

Like, is it crazy?

But, but if it's taken to extremes,
I want you to That's true.

I was at dinner last night.

Yeah.

With someone who knows a lot about
food, Uhhuh and three other people.

Uh, yeah, there was three
o or the rest of us.

Yeah.

And she went up and ordered all the food.

Yeah.

And that was No, no, that was, I'm hot.

That was hot.

That is a good strong's.

A strong move.

I'm into that.

But no, it's, um, yeah, it's part
of a, how many people, if you ever

go on a dating app, you'll see it.

Sam, like how many did she order?

Four?

There was four of us in total.

Sorry.

Huge move to just order for something.

I made that a bit convoluted.

But, but anyway.

Go, go, go.

Yeah.

I mean, anyway, go on.

If it's, it's not innocent, it's actually.

oh no, it's a posture,
it's a cynical posture.

And the more extreme, is
that what you're saying?

Version?

Yeah.

They tend to be anti-vaxxers.

Oh no.

And they tend and they wanna be in
their feminine polarity, want in by

embrace, embrace their divine feminine.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you to be in your masculine
polarity, which means, and

they also don't get vaccinated.

And it's this whole bizarre
online, well, it's not just online,

these are women in the world.

Uh, and they often live down
the peninsula of course.

And they, there's a level of privilege.

Yeah.

They want you to take over everything
from the start, other than why

I've end up chatting to them.

Desperation, I guess.

But, uh, because they seem
to be chronically available.

Yeah.

It's, it's, it's, yeah.

There's so many.

Do some of them believe it?

Totally.

And do others just write that in the bio?

'cause they think that's
what you put there?

I don't know, man, because this door of
like, do we think we're attracted to,

it's an authentically, it's anti feminism.

It's like, oh no, it is, it's, it's,
it's consciously anti-feminist.

It's can consciously anti feminism
and yes, if you are into feminism

as a man, that's not hot to me.

It's only a small percentage.

So do you know what, like, I I
kind of get it if a woman says, if

a man bangs on about his feminist
credentials that it's deeply sad.

I don't claim to be a feminist.

'cause I find that's a bit sickening.

No, I think it's a weird,
I think it's a weird move.

Could be disproved
throughout my adult life.

So what's the point of saying it?

No, and don't at me for like, don't, don't
come, don't come at me with like, hang on.

I believe that there should be equality
between genders and sexes, so that

technically makes me a feminist.

Yeah.

No, no, no, no, no.

Shut up.

I I even It just makes you, I even cr
egalitarian, even cr I even cringe.

Yeah.

Back when I still had a Facebook account.

I, um, during the Me Too movement, I
even did a post about, oh, I should

have been listening and paid more
attention or something, and I cringe

that I even bothered to fucking
say anything at that point rather

than just shutting the fuck up.

You know, like I'm trying to put my
little hand up and say, yeah, I'm an ally.

And it's like, just shut up, Joe.

No, I, no, no, but, but I will say this,
it's important for, it is important

for people outside of a group to speak
up and echo the claims being made.

So, for example, during the Civil Rights
movement, it was critically important that

non-black people marched and were hosed
by the cops and had dogs set on them.

And were arrested and
were profiled by the FBI.

the oppression needed to
be acknowledged as a shame.

Yeah.

But that's a bit different from someone
who's been a bit of an asshole to

women his whole adult life jumping on
Facebook and saying, yeah, I understand.

Like, I don't, I've been
enough of an asshole.

It's unearned.

It's unearned.

Yeah.

I've been enough of an asshole.

Yes.

I've heard enough women that yes,
I agree and treated them badly

for their appearance or whatever.

Sure.

Or for getting the ick and
then just breaking up with 'em.

So in other words, it would
be profoundly hypocritical.

It's too hypocritical.

I should have just shut up.

But in theory, you have no
argument against equality, right?

Oh, like I was raised by a feminist Yes.

And a Marxist.

Yeah.

Like my mom lived with Helen
Garner in the seventies.

Oh, that's awesome.

That is fucking awesome.

I got cred.

I was raised by a feminist.

I have no, is your mom a side
character in like the last days of

Shane knew, or like, uh, she, she's
sort of in Monkey Grip somewhere.

Monkey Grip.

She was living with Helen Gardner
while she wrote Monkey Grip.

Speaking of a complicated feminist.

Helen Garner, I think would
be enjoying this conversation.

But anyway, yeah.

Just as an aside.

Um, but yeah, so yeah, I think that, yeah.

Yes, I believe in quality of pay and
all the basic qualities of feminism.

Sure.

But I have treated women badly
enough that I can't claim to be.

If I was a better feminist, I
wouldn't have been such an asshole.

Well, of course, the irony of what you're
saying is you are willing to acknowledge

that, that you have committed wrongs.

I mean, that is, but I'm
literally the first step.

My mom is a hardcore feminist and I'm
attracted to pretty hardcore feminists.

I saw one in the pub the other night.

An ex Well, what you're saying is when
you encounter a woman that disavows

feminism, it is a massive turnoff.

This woman I saw in the pub the other
night, Sam, I dated her for about six

months after my big breakup, Uhhuh.

And, uh, I would say at the
time I thought she was maybe not

that conventionally attractive.

Sure.

And I saw her in the pub the other
night, and I was struck by the thing

that I was struck by in the first
place, which is she is striking.

Striking is where it's at.

Yeah.

Like she's, if you want my opinion,
like a manish, a Manish kind of woman.

Oh bro.

Like got some masculine energy.

Yes.

Hardcore leftist and hardcore
feminist man, very strong,

can flatten you on fight.

Um, a little bit autistic
and like unfeeling.

It was great.

Oh, and then I saw her the other
night and she, she doesn't hate me.

She was very warm towards me
and I thought, oh wow, this

is an ex that doesn't hate me.

Like, how wonderful.

Hang on.

How long did you go out?

Six months.

And at the end, she didn't
wanna say, I love you to me.

No.

And she didn't want me to be
able to call her my girlfriend.

No.

And on the basis of those two
facts, I called it off break.

In hindsight, who cares?

Dude, you are having a good time.

She's great company.

Like who cares about the girlfriend label?

Who cares about whether
they're in love with you?

Being in love is one of the most horrific
things that can happen to anyone.

And it's a bourgeois construct anyway,
which is what she would probably say.

Yeah.

Like who knows about being, uh, at 45?

I'm baffled about the concept of in love.

I keep going to weddings where I'm like,
are these people in love on the day?

You, maybe I'm too cynical, but I'm like,
I think a lot of people on the day they

get married, frankly, they're frazzled.

They're overstimulated.

Yeah.

They don't know how they
feel about anything.

Like, oh, you've done it, haven't you?

Yeah, I have.

Yeah.

And I look back, I look at the
photos of that day and I'm like, I

was, I was tired, but I was also.

Elated and it felt very much like the
right decision and I was very glad.

But it felt I was exhausted because it
had been just the process of organizing.

But also I was going into that
marriage feeling very inadequate.

And will I measure up?

Will I be a good husband?

Will I be a good father?

Will I, will I be able to do what
I didn't do all the other times,

which I've already done in that
relationship at that point, you know?

Yeah.

Twice of just like totally withdraw.

Yeah.

And just disappear emotionally and
good on you for rolling the dice.

How did it work out?

Well, not, not not so good, but I
mean, two lovely kids, you know?

Yeah.

It's all worth it for the kids.

It is.

But, and then can I ask, yeah.

I don't wanna get too personal here, but
did you find that you had a more lasting

attraction to the woman you married
than anyone else you'd come across?

Yes.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

That was my experience too.

Like it didn't.

You said at the start, it's capricious
and it, and it goes away sometimes, but

with the long term, my only real long term
like mind, it came back so many times.

Yeah.

It kept coming back.

And you know what I realized,
this will literally never go away.

It will, it will keep coming back.

Yeah.

When I occasionally see the
mother of my children still,

it's like profound and li Yeah.

At this point it's like
10 to one on anyone else.

Yeah.

I wouldn't say that, but I
still can appreciate the beauty

of the mother of my children.

Like, it's like, no, she's hot.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I can still see that.

And even if we're not seeing eye to eye,
which you know, isn't a massive problem

for us these days, I still can think
what a beautiful woman and Oh, and good

personal qualities as well and yeah.

And like, yeah.

So I guess, don't you, do you find a woman
more attractive as you get to know them?

Right?

So when you were saying
before about, you know, this.

Person you found striking early
on, but not necessarily hot.

Right.

It's a difference between, I, I'm sexually
attracted to them and my friends down at

the cricket club will think they're hot.

I dated someone a few years ago where I
take, took her down to the cricket club

and then like she's like a knockout.

Yes.

And all the guys are like acting
weird around her, you know?

Yeah.

I've dated those women too, but
that's kind of like, it's actually

a bit terrifying to be dead.

It's less good.

It's terrifying.

Yeah.

It's like, this is stressful.

Like this, this woman is like
turning on every guy on the street.

Now as it turns out, a number of people
have come out of the woodwork one by

one and said that they find my wife hot.

Right.

And did in some cases before I met her.

Like Right.

And I'm like, oh, right.

So there I was feeling
like you'd found a she.

She was not giving out.

You know, was not passing, was
not passing out vibes Right.

To, to people.

But I, I would still put her head
and shoulders above in any room.

Right.

Everyone else, but is not, not
necessarily, you know, as I said to

the girl in Lauren who we had, I had
the mutual annoyance with, God, Erin,

last night, you a bubble Uber the
boys, and you, it was flies on a turd.

And she's like, I'm the turd
in this charming analogy.

Am I?

And I'm like, oh my God.

It was a very sudden, that was the
moment she said the words, am I the

turd in this charming analogy with
just the right level of contempt?

Yeah.

That's hard.

And I'm like, you are smart.

You are cutting.

Yeah.

You see through me, you realize
there was more to her you, there's

more to you and there's more to
me, you realizing, and this is.

Weirdly interesting.

But like, I was just like, and
yet I will never act upon this

because I felt locked in to what I
So what, you guys never hooked up?

No.

Ah, I was assuming this steamy
story ended in the boudoir.

No, but I wanted to just close off
this thought about what, about my wife?

That there was never this, I need
to worry about attractions, friends.

I need to worry about friends.

Oh.

'cause I, because I've had this in
the past, like I said, I put her

like 10, 10 to one on everybody else.

But I, I have in the past had
more of a worrying or annoying

situation where people are like,
oh bro, your girlfriend's hot.

And I'm just like, you know what?

You can shut up.

Like you think you are
paying me a compliment here.

Yeah.

I mean, I had, um, yeah.

Everyone will remain nameless from my
end with these people I'm talking about.

But the one from a few years ago
that really messed me up mm-hmm.

Down at the cricket club, she
met one of my good friends.

Yeah.

And then afterwards, and this
is a guy who will tend to just

be charming towards women.

Yeah.

But he also just does it with everyone.

He's just got a bit Oh no.

He, he's just got charm.

He's, yeah.

Yeah.

And she said, well, I'd be watching out
for him the way he was talking to me.

Oh.

And she, he'd spoken to her for five
minutes and he would've, which he is

way, he would've flirted with her.

He would've flirted with her.

But he, he would also flirt
with, he'd flirt with anyone.

With Freak.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, yeah.

And he like, and it just,
but it made me uneasy.

And then it, when the breakup
happened, it should, it created, yeah.

Resentment I had.

Because what she's actually saying
there is, you shouldn't trust me.

That's right.

It's a huge tell on yourself,
like you just confessed there.

Yeah.

What you should say, if you wanna mention
an attractiveness to anyone else at all,

which is apparently allowing the third.

That book's been around for a long time.

Um, and of course now we have
ethical non-monogamy and all

this, but Oh, it's everywhere.

Especially around these parts.

Yeah.

But in theory, it's always existed
as an option, but that it's a good

piece of advice in theory that as a
relationship, uh, if it's got, if it's

based on any firm foundations and to
people have secure attachment, that

they should be able to acknowledge
attraction to other people without it

causing, you know, any undue disruption.

And more importantly, that it's
actually necessary to do that

because the alternative is to claim.

Or to feel obliged to maintain a
false claim, which is that you do not

experience attractiveness to anyone
else because that would be disloyal.

So then when you do experience
attractiveness to other people,

I experienced this as an, an
intensely guilt inducing thing.

Yeah.

And fear inducing because I was
betraying this person by finding

someone else attractive and
therefore I would be betrayed.

Yeah.

And funding, I mean, I think in
the case of that person, yes.

I couldn't trust her.

Mm-hmm.

And I've all, an older guy said this to
me, I don't know what you think about

this piece of wisdom, but that if you're
feeling, like, if you're feeling jealous

and distrustful, there's probably a reason
because in my long, long-term relationship

with the mother of my children, I never
had a single moment of that in nine years.

I always completely trusted that person.

And I was Okay.

So you experienced secure
attachment more or less.

Yeah.

That was the great mystery
of my five years of therapy.

Sam, open-ended, I'll
probably still go back.

Yeah.

Just don't like a billing system.

But, um, uh, the great mystery was
this nine years where I had secure

attachment, the rest of it made sense.

I was a fucking nightmare.

Mm-hmm.

And the last 10 years of my
life of insecure attachment

has made perfect sense.

But the mystery was how did I
drop into this secure attachment

for this period of time?

Um, well, I've heard, I've heard it from
the experts that occasionally people

with insecure attachment styles like
you and me, you know, I'm profoundly,

uh, uh, usually avoidant, but I
will experience anxious attachment.

Uh, when the other person finally
goes, you know what, dude?

Fuck you.

I give up.

Then the anxious attachment comes in.

Right.

But basically the second I felt
that other people were really

counting on me emotionally, I felt.

Inadequate and unable
to really answer that.

And I had, but a intense desire to form
lasting deep and meaningful relationships.

But the second that all the ingredients
were there and the commitment

was there, I felt a profound
terror at not living up to it.

And so that's avoidant attachment.

Right.

but like I said, I experienced both the
anxiety, the anxious, and the avoidant.

And in your case, I think if
you've mostly been, I'm anxious.

Anxious, yeah.

I'm like a textbook.

Right.

Extreme case of anxious attachment.

So, so in theory, you should
have been freaking out on a

regular basis about your wife.

Yeah.

Yes, exactly.

But you didn't, especially 'cause she's
a just a and I don't just, I don't just

mean cheating the idea that she does not
love you or does not find you enough.

Yeah, yeah.

That didn't trouble you.

No, no.

I just felt completely secure with
that person for, for nine years.

Well, the experts tell me that
even people that are as like.

Look, I would not put as 10, outta
10 on the dysfunctional here, but

like, we're definitely over a five.

Right.

in terms, you know, from childhood reasons
and events in our early twenties as well.

Right.

Yeah.

So there's like a, there's parallels,
but occasionally people like you

and me are capable of choosing to a
degree, unconsciously the right person

who will more or less be able to
not negate whole hand, whole wholly,

but like basically occasionally we
luck out and make the right choice

and don't feel that insecurity much.

And I have experienced
this a couple of times.

Um, and that's where we're
lucky to end up with children.

Yes.

'cause I could be so debilitated by my
anxious attachment and my weird mm-hmm.

Perfectionism.

That, for example, the last 10
years of my life, I've never been

in a position to create a child.

Yes.

So, like, I could have been like that
terminally, but I actually got lucky for

a period of time, my late twenties, early
thirties, and luckily got a couple of

kids out of it, and it was fortuitous.

And, but, but now the point of
this conversation, if it's gonna

be therapeutic, and we do try and
have therapeutic chats, is, mm-hmm.

Okay.

I've got my kids, they're, they're nearly
one's a teenager, one's nearly a teenager.

There's absolutely no need for you
to do any reproduction at this point.

Yeah.

I've, I've had the snip,
I'm not having more kids.

What the fuck am I trying to
achieve with relationships?

And when it comes to
attraction, can I, mm-hmm.

Am I willing to, or can I possibly
be willing to compromise or mm-hmm.

Go past a few ick moments.

Mm-hmm.

And assume that they're having
ick moments towards me as well.

Yes.

Don't you think that's transformative
to make that same assumption?

Yeah.

Just, just can I, 'cause if I don't,
Sam, I think, well this is what you

said to me on the couch last time.

Yeah.

I'm, I'm am, am I destined to die
alone and live a lonely life after?

Yeah.

I just had a very, it's not over
yet, but I've just had a very lonely

cold winter lying in a bed on my own.

Yeah, man.

And it's like, if I could have been
willing to compromise, I could have

had someone pretty great in my life.

Yes.

And I wasn't.

And I didn't, and I was very alone.

Now that seems to be a bit of an error.

Like I feel like I
probably fucked that up.

Tactical, strategic, whatever.

Yeah.

Well, like there is no
strategy, there is no plan.

It's just like, nah, I'm not feeling it.

You know?

Yeah.

So you just did.

You're just a, uh, you know, I think
you're just a typical human being in that

sense that you want the thing and you,
but you struggle to put in the effort.

And I'm going, it's not just
compromising on looks, it's

also compromising on behaviors.

Like yes, of course I had a falling
out with this person about watching

the test cricket and texting.

Yeah.

I was exact thing I was thinking of.

I read your mind.

I'm like, you were unable to accept that
a person would find that annoying that you

wanna watch Tess Cricket for hours on end.

Yeah, I've said, I said that on
the show a couple of years ago.

It's a deal breaker.

I said that on the show
a couple of years ago.

It's a deal breaker.

And then it happened in real life.

And I, which I knew it would.

In fact, I was amazed.

It hadn't already, if I'm honest.

But then I told myself a narrative, which
is if the attraction levels were higher

mm-hmm I would've turned off the cricket.

But I don't know if that's true.

No, it's not true.

I could be sitting there with
Lucci and just be like, absolutely.

You know what Monica, do you know what?

I'm gonna watch this next session?

Because, can I just say this?

It doesn't matter how hot.

The other person is, or how
hot you are, you both need

the fuck away from each other.

You both need solitude, right?

Mm-hmm.

You are going to kill the attraction
very fast if you don't get a break.

And us insecure attachment people,
we cannot, the whole point is we

cannot make up our fucking minds about
whether we want to cling or run away.

And it's like, well, you
don't, don't do either, right?

And be, I was gonna say,
be authentically yourself.

And if that includes watching
cricket, that's okay, but allow

them to be themselves as well
and go, well, do you know what?

I find that an odd and selfish
habit, if I'm honest, and

just allow them to say that.

Do you know what I mean?

But the thing is, I just be cool with it.

I'm like, good.

What's the big deal?

Good on me.

I stuck to my guns and didn't
turn the cricket off that night.

And then I had endured a long and
lonely winter who's the, but I

also understand who's the winner?

Who's the winner here.

I also think there'll be a lot of men
that will relate to that, but there'll

also be a lot of women that will
relate to that, who will like, you

know what there are, I do have some
red flags, and I feel like if they

won't accept this thing about me, that
it's a critical threat to my autonomy.

And I really fundamentally
understand that feeling.

And I do not judge anyone for being.

Oh my God, you stepped like
two centimeters onto my grass.

But it's like, it's, you are
gonna try and lock me down.

It's like, like I get that's if your
partner said, yeah, I don't want

you to go to band practice tonight.

Totally.

Or if they said, uh, I don't like, you
know, I don't like it when you're out

late with the boys, or I don't like Yeah.

I don't want you sitting out in
the shed smoke and rollies and Yes.

You know, listening to music Exactly.

At 1:00 AM Yes.

And you'd be like, but I have to
do that, but I have to do that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Or, or, uh, you know, why do you have
to play video games or, um, yeah,

see that's one where Yeah, I, yeah, I
can, I don't get the whole video game

thing so I could be judgy about that.

Or like, dude, how did you
not compromise on that?

Hey, let's all just judge all day long.

You know?

And, but also, I will say this, don't,
don't make the mistake of going, the

only way this is gonna work is if
I learn to refrain from judgment.

It's, it's impossible.

But what you do is, this is my advice.

This is, and I'm taking my own fucking
advice as we speak, because I've needed

to know this more than anybody else.

The judgments are gonna happen.

Forgive yourself for having
them and hold them lightly.

Is this really, you know, and I don't say
disregard your own like strong intuitions.

Right.

But God knows my whole life is living
proof of the idea that feelings are

not a reliable guide to reality.

Yeah.

But my whole life is also a testament
equally that one can't decide.

Oh, okay.

Facts are a reliable guide to reality.

It.

Neither one of the, it
doesn't work like that.

One of the, one of the, the old elders
in my addiction recovery circles says

that emotion should be like a, A rudder.

Yeah.

The guide you, but your intellect
has to make the decisions.

Yes.

And I only sort of understand that.

I'm happy to relay it on the
show, but I don't fully get that.

Well, I don't fully distinguish
those two things I used to.

Right.

So, you know, thoughts and emotions.

Yes.

You're, so, you're aware
of platonic dualism, right?

Like not really, but I could wing it.

Well, Cartesian dualism.

But like the, you know, the ancient Greeks
who, you know, at some point they come

along and say, okay, reality is twofold.

There's, there's basically the, the
touchable and the non touchable, right?

There's the sort of spirit and the flesh.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Right.

And then, so that gives us the doctrine of
the soul and, you know, blah, blah, blah.

Now, Cartesian dualism,
big problem for science.

Uh, theoretically it's
been overcome recently.

basically there is no separation
between mind and body.

There is no separation
between matter and spirit.

Uh, there's no separation
between energy and matter.

It's all made of the same stuff.

And emotions and deci and rational
decision making and feelings

are completely inseparable.

They're all one thing.

So anyone who spent time in therapy knows
the, the emotions are helping to determine

the thoughts and the thoughts are helping
to determine the emotions and, okay.

So you disagree with the elders thesis?

No, I think they're right.

Emotions can be just a
rudder, just a guide.

Yes.

I think they're right though,
to formulate it as a partnership

between the two things.

Because in truth we do, I can be a proper
rugged mon and go, there is no dualism.

And you are, you are of that.

There is no separate.

Yeah, I'm a non-duality guy.

You're a non-duality guy.

I don't talk about it much on the
show 'cause it's so hard to explain.

It's so hard to explain.

Right.

But look up non-duality.

Non-duality.

I said that to my daughter
the other day, other week.

And your non, you believe in
a doctrine of non-duality.

IE There is no division within
reality into two different things.

Yeah.

The separate self is an illusion.

The separate self is an illusion.

And you haven't come to this conclusion.

Intellectually, you
had it as a revelation.

Yeah.

I've experienced it many
times in meditation.

So I think it's, I think it is
the key to this whole thing,

attraction, mental wellbeing.

It's all of a piece, right?

So like how do we get to an authentic
place where we're actually choosing

the right people and we're not being
misled by false notions or fears

and avoidances or clinging to false
checklists and writing people off for

the, for insufficiently good reasons.

So leaving morality and judgment,
and I ought to be a better person

leaving all that out of it, right?

We're all gonna be superficial,
judgmental bitches and we just,

we accept it and we're gonna be
subject to that from other people.

So a degree of honesty about that, right?

I think you're fairly
comfortable with that.

And are you comfortable with allowing
others to have their incorrect

views and just sitting with them?

Right.

This has been a huge pro struggle for me.

So for you, the non-duality thing, the,
the non, the, the illusion of the separate

self, this isn't like a cute idea.

You've experienced this as
a profound reality, right?

No, I think it's the single most
important thing I've ever learned.

The single most important
thing you've ever learned.

If I could, if I was gonna die
tonight and had to pass one thing

onto my two daughters, I'd say this
separate self is an illusion if, and

don't worry so much for that reason.

Don't worry so much.

If you take just one
thing from me, it's this.

Yes.

And if you look up non-duality
or talk to chat GPT about it,

it'll explain it to you perfectly.

It's, it's just, I don't stray.

Especially not on an attraction episode.

I don't wanna stray.

No, no, no.

I'll tell you why.

It's closely connected all the times when
the turnoff, the sudden ick has occurred.

This has got to do.

With the illusion of the separate self.

Yeah.

The self is suddenly incredibly rarefied
and just like, mm, solid, isn't it?

Mm.

Like, Ooh, I'm over here and
that icky thing is over there.

And yeah, I don't want them
to ever cross this boundary.

But also what you don't realize is in
that same moment, you think you've put

a defense between you and the bad thing,
but what's actually happened is you've

built four walls and a roof around
yourself and there's no door, right?

Yeah.

So the second you go, safety
consists in separateness, which is,

this is a very profound instinct,
like at a base level, right?

So I'm not faulting anyone for
feeling this way because I felt this

way, like literally a million times.

I can't trust anyone else.

And they can't trust me and
there's no way to overcome this.

That's what I felt last night
watching a complete unknown.

Mm-hmm.

Is what's Bob Dylan trying to achieve?

Young, early twenties.

Bob Dylan.

Yeah.

He's trying to achieve separation.

Yes.

From all these, from the folk scene.

Yes.

From the, the hangers on, from the, you
know, like he's just trying to, he's

gonna drive to distinguish himself.

He's trying to achieve perfect
freedom while also being famous.

He felt very impatient with other people.

Yeah.

And I, I didn't, I only mentioned that
because I deeply like, this guy's my hero.

I've got his picture above my, my bed.

Mm-hmm.

And he was an iconic dude that Yeah.

Have the pick of the iconic genius.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Complete individual going for
a complete individualism Yes.

Is my hero.

Yes.

So that doesn't align that well with
the separate self as an illusion.

It sure does.

And it doesn't make you, when you don't
have the talent of a Bob Dylan, it just

means you're a bit of a lonely asshole.

Yes.

You know, any gold records.

But don't you think Bob Dylan experienced
an enormous amount of loneliness too,

and that it's, I think it's clear in
his writing that he, he, uh, okay.

So in his, well, interestingly, I
watched that film with friend of

the show, Liv, who's a psychologist.

Yes.

And she said at the end, go on.

What was his childhood like?

Mm-hmm.

Because, because him and, uh, Liv and
my daughter, who watched the show,

watched the movie with me, were both
like, why is he such an asshole?

Mm-hmm.

And I was just there going, he's my hero.

I, I think there's, if you want like
my, I'm not really a proper Dylan

Ologist, but I have read, I've read
the anthology volume one went for God's

sake, is he ever gonna do a volume two?

Uh, it was a really good book that
Dylan wrote about his early years.

Yeah.

It's amazing.

It's, it's a great read.

It's a, it's a fucking masterpiece.

It's a real page turn.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The broken.

Right.

But like, and I don't like
all of his songs equally.

Right.

Some of them are a real turnoff
for me, and some of it just hit.

So hard.

Yeah.

You're not obsessed like me.

No, I'm not obsessed.

I can take it or leave a And
you see him as just a man.

I see him.

I, whereas I as kind of a prophet.

No, but I had the mythical,
mystical view of him and I thought

he, he was the gateway to some
kind of Kabbalah or something.

Yeah.

Like it was big for me.

Don't get still.

Is that for me?

Yeah.

Like I really studied some of
his songs can like drop acid.

Listen to Mr.

Tambourine Man.

And you're like, totally whoa.

It's all there.

Oh no.

It's a phenomenal song,
don't get me wrong.

Right?

Yeah.

But like, yeah.

It seemed to mean so much on LSD anyway.

No, no, no, no, no, no.

It's very, it's very acid.

Right.

But, so what I was gonna say about
Dylan is so Tambourine man has

this, um, romantic mysticism to
it, which I was very attracted to.

I liked, I liked the
whimsical Dylan at first.

Yeah.

I liked the romantic Dylan.

And when I say romantic, I mean
capital R that the, you know, uh,

maybe somewhere in Tania, you know?

Yeah.

If you see her say hello
like this Wistfulness.

Yes.

And if only I'll.

If only my own true love was waiting.

If I could hear her heart softly pound,
and if only if she was lying by me,

would I lie in my bed once again.

But yeah.

And surely Bob Dylan is a separate
self if there ever was one.

Right.

But he's a separate self who then goes,
who's reifying that constantly through

the songwriting and he's full of acerbic
remarks about other human beings, right?

Yes.

Oh, love it.

He's either, he's either cutting
other people down to size Yes.

Or romanticizing them at a distance.

That's exactly what I do.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love that.

What a deficient way to live life.

I've ended up quite
lonely, as I keep saying.

Yeah.

And I, I have two, so I won't
say that I will, I won't place

myself above you in this regard.

I thought I was better than that, but
I don't, I fundamentally still are.

I'm still not there.

But I can see through the
illusion of it and I can play,

put it in his proper perspective.

But, you know, can I realign
the behaviors to fit Well?

We'll see.

But when it comes to, I think
Dylan's very useful because he, Hmm.

the girl from the north country or
sad eyed lately of the lowlands,

boots of Spanish leather.

Yes.

It's all these songs
about separation, right?

Yeah.

And so that really connected with
me because I did experience a lot

of separation as a young person,
as a child, and as a young person.

And so the, the, the romantic wistful
Dylan very much connected with me, but so

did the angry vengeful, hard eyed Dylan
also really connected to me, you know?

Um, don't think twice.

It's all right.

Which is like, it's right and it's light,
but it's not, it's like very bitter.

Yeah.

It's dark.

And, and I, I intensely related to
that song because I felt that it was.

A trenchant critique of a certain
kind of feminine romanticism.

Yeah.

And that's what I said to friend
of the show, B McCafferty.

I said, you know, this morning
I said, there wasn't any

narrative tension in that film.

It's just a bunch of Bob Dylan stuff.

And he said, it's Bob Dylan
versus women does both.

That's the tension.

Oh my God.

Bob Dylan versus women.

And when you makes Blonde on Blonde,
it's like, this is an album about Right.

This love hate relationship.

It's a misogynistic album, right?

Yeah.

And, but I don't say that.

I say it's artistically meritorious.

Do you think I'm a misogynist though?

Be honest.

Yeah.

A little, yeah.

At times.

Yeah.

It's a contextual thing.

But I thought you were
gonna say it's a spectrum.

It it is.

It's, it's a spectrum and it's a context.

I resent how much I'm
obsessed at times with women.

Yeah.

With certain women.

You know what, this is what I'm gonna say.

So that resentment leads to
a misogyny of like, yes, yes.

Wish I could just be free from
how much I need you right now.

You know?

Absolutely.

I think you are right to resent that.

Yeah, but you are attributing
it to the wrong cause.

Women are not causing
you to feel that way.

You are causing you to feel that
way and due to childhood stuff.

Yes.

And you have not overcome,
you've a, not deprogrammed the

romantic illusions sufficiently.

I'll say That's my, that's my judgment.

Yeah.

Lifetime listening to
Dylan probably didn't help.

Right, exactly.

But what but what?

Here's your assignment.

Listen to Dylan and hear
the dysfunction in it.

Hear the willful attachment.

Well, I watched it with two
women, a young woman and a woman.

My, and they both called it, they
both said, why is he such an asshole?

And I the right person?

I wasn't viewing it like that.

I'm like, this guy is my fucking hero.

Well, he was an asshole because he was
very talented and he had the arrogance

that Yeah, that came with that.

He was also an asshole because he
was extremely driven and ambitious.

Talent by itself is nothing.

Yeah, yeah.

But I did, just wasn't viewing it
through the lens of he's an asshole.

I was viewing it through the ends of
lens of how fucking cool is this guy?

You know?

Well, yeah.

No, no, no, and he, you're right.

He was the definition
of cool at one point.

Right.

That's right.

And.

I think ladder Dylan when he sort of
ages, oh, it's so daggy in the eighties.

He's so, Dagg is the definition
of daggy in the, do you what?

Eighties Know what?

That's the guy I can embrace a lot more.

Yeah.

You know, born again Christian.

I think that's way more my kind of
Dylan and, and, but that's, that's

what Dylan heads will tell you.

Sam.

There's a Dylan for every age
and stage of your life, you know?

Now, Sam.

Yeah.

We're either gonna need a bathroom
break or we should wrap this up.

Oh, I say we take a bathroom break
and continue because I think this

is an absolute heater and I feel
like I've got this much more to say.

Wow.

Have a look at your notes
and we'll come back.

She'll come record a two parter.

I don't think so.

Just give it another 10 minutes.

It's just gonna be a
bumper episode, everybody.

All right.

All right.

so is this turned into a Dylan episode?

Are we Well, yeah.

'cause it's one we're supposed
to be talking about attraction.

Well, but this is what I'm gonna point to
and I think we should wrap it up too, Sam.

Sure.

But I'm gonna use Dylan as a way to kind
of bring some threads together here.

Okay.

So Dylan is a clue to all the things.

We're talking about here.

I don't think he has the answers,
but he reveals the pathologies.

Right?

And the first one is this false
notion, which I believed for a

long time that, blonde On Blonde
was the, the so album, right?

Or the angry album.

That's the one where he, you know, his
feelings towards women have changed

or whatever, and blah, blah, blah.

Actually.

Now I look at it and go romantic
misty-eyed, younger Dylan with, you

know, like I said, sad eyed lady,
the lowlands, and Sarah o Sarah,

glamorous nm sweet lover of my life.

Like, I mean, that's a
later song, but like the.

That mode he has of like
worshiping from afar.

Mm.

Of only loving them in separation.

Worshiping.

Worshiping from afar.

Romanticizing from afar.

She's flitting through
a market in Mar Kay.

Oh, of course.

She's, yeah.

And the perfect woman and he,
that's still what I'm looking for.

Of course.

Oh right.

And you, me too.

And you're not wrong, but you need to be
able to find, I mean, this is genuine.

It's just a statement of fact.

It's so boring to say this.

You need to be able to find the appeal
in the everyday and the real, right?

Mm-hmm.

That's the key to all of it.

And it also unlocks your own, uh,
a feeling of comfort for oneself.

And I was speaking for myself here that
once I was able to go, I love the reality.

Yeah, then I was able to actually
love myself a lot better.

So this is what, yeah, Alanda.

Botten says We need to
get over romanticism.

Re romanticism has poisoned our brain.

He's right.

And I met someone, a woman once, who
had said she'd had to stop listening to.

Yeah, it's things like Dylan songs or
Beatles songs that romanticize love

to get over a sex and love addiction.

Are you familiar?

Yeah.

And I think that's the right move, right?

Because that stuff, but I'll
never stop listening to Dylan.

I think you can still listen to
it, but achieve a level of like a

mature relationship to the work.

That this is not a guide
to how to live your life.

If anything, it's helping to reveal
the neuroses and the, the difficulties.

And the mistakes.

The errors as you described them earlier.

So Dylan can only love profoundly
in separation and at a distance.

Right.

The young Dylan anyway,
I dunno what later.

Dylan is a bit more real I think.

So if he was around now that just
say he had a void, an attachment.

Absolutely.

And that he would get, he would
catch the ick pretty soon and end it.

Or she would leave or there'd be some
enforced separation 'cause he's traveling

or whatever and you know, she's not there.

So he finds it all too easy to long
for her at a distance, but he finds it

very difficult to actually just be in a
proper relationship up close in reality.

And I would say in a general sense.

Um, he was not particularly comfortable
in his own skin a lot of the time

when, when he was around other people,
and that when he was alone, I think

he felt relatively comfortable and
relaxed, and I think he was happiest

when he was at the typewriter.

and, and in the middle of performing
that he would feel a sort of oneness

with himself and with the world.

But when it came for social
interaction, he's either sort of.

Awkward or silent or dismissive,
or sneering or, and you can just

imagine what he would've been
like to have as a boyfriend.

You know, just a nightmare.

And, and then probably incredibly
sweet at times as well, right?

So all we, I contain multitudes
as an older, Dylan says, right?

Yeah.

So that's the key to all this, to accept
all the parts of yourself, not to go.

They're good, they're
bad, uh, or they're okay.

I And to be and to be able to do that
for the other, it's all one thing.

I'm gonna give you five minutes to
wrap up the threads of attraction

and we'll finish the episodes.

Okay.

So my mate, Ben, years ago,
he told me a story about his,

his girlfriend, who he's cute.

Like, uh, you know, I
could, I could agree.

And I said that 'cause
he was looking for that.

And I was like, okay, what's the deal?

And he's like, well, sure she's cute.

Right?

I like her.

But the other day I caught
a glimpse of toe hair.

I saw some toe hair, and
I was just like, Ooh.

And I'm like, okay, man.

Everyone's got toe hair.

Like you're gonna have to
be able to get past this.

Right.

So that's why it's easier
to love at a distance.

Mm-hmm.

Because you don't have to worry
about toe hair or whatever.

Like, and for, for me.

The tow hair's not a problem,
but it's gonna be something else.

Mm.

It's gonna be behavior.

The biggest, the biggest turnoff for me
was them seeing me for who I really am.

Mm.

That was the real turnoff, right.

I'm like, oh my God.

They see through me.

They know I'm a vain,
inauthentic piece of shit.

And what I didn't
realize was like, no, no.

That's the good news.

That they see you for who you
are, and they're still here

and they're sticking around.

So what are you worried about, man?

This is the, this is the breakthrough.

You've, that's how you know
you've really found one this.

That's how you know you've got a real one.

This is the breakthrough
you've been looking for.

But instead I experienced
it as the exact opposite.

I can only be secure and happy if you have
an illusion about who I really am and.

Think about it, what's
the inverse of that?

I can only feel secure and happy
and attracted if I have an illusion

about how you, who you are.

So you can see how tremendously
obvious all of this is when

you put it like that, right?

So learn to love the
reality of what it is.

And there's another person who I'm
thinking of who I will not name and

was not in a relationship with but is.

Very conventionally.

Beautiful, uh, great
bone structure, right?

And lovely dark skin.

Bone structure.

Bone structure, lovely dark skin, and
visible all over body hair, right?

Oh, now I didn't notice it at
first, just like, and then one day

I was like, oh, oh, yeah, right.

That is a of course.

And I was like, I couldn't unsee it.

Right?

And then I wondered how her
boyfriend felt about it, right?

Because he also had a bit of hair.

And I'm like, well, it's
probably cool, right?

But then I learned everyone's got the
same amount of body hair, more or less.

It's just that some people's are
much more visible and that this is.

An unfair beauty standard, just
one among many, and there's

so many like tallness for men.

Um, or as I experienced, you know,
that I needed to be tanned and tight

in the abdomen and, uh, have good
arms and I really hit me hard and

I never forgot it when a girl said.

You'd be hot if you had some muscles.

Mm.

And I was like, oh man,
that's just brutally unfair.

Right?

But I was doing the same thing to other
people and like, oh yeah, yeah, you

just called someone an eight earlier.

Totally.

Right.

So what am I leaving out?

What's the two?

Well, what pushed her?

What pushed her to 10 was No, but even
the fact you're willing to number people.

Oh no.

You are obviously cool with a
bit of No, and that's right.

Objectification.

Exactly.

I was consciously making that move.

To illustrate how the two of us were
both very much harshly but somewhat

objectively assessing one another.

And the fact that we actually
liked each other nonetheless

is quite, quite remarkable.

But the thing that really tipped that
attraction into, into, into Gear was

I was one day sitting down with a
couple of mates at like an outdoor,

you know, drinking area in lawn.

It was sort of quiet, quietish
afternoons, a few people around.

And I happened to have the guitar
there 'cause I think I was gonna.

Maybe do a little bit
of a show there later.

I can't remember why.

And then she's like, oh, do you play that?

And I'm like, yeah.

She goes, go on, do something.

And I'm like, oh Christ.

Hang on.

Is this the Harry woman?

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

The one that I was annoyed with
from hospitality situation, I'll

close off the Harry woman story.

Eventually I just went,
oh no, it's just there.

It's just the reality.

Everyone's got their hair.

It's just visible in this case, see
past it or don't, but if you, yeah,

but see, it's like I've always dated,
but if you don't see past it, you're

gonna miss out on the awesome person.

Don't, yeah.

Most of the women I dated had like
hairy armpits, and then I got a friend.

I like hairy armpits.

I've got a friend who gets such
an ink that he can't even say

hairy armpits to him without him.

Ga.

About women.

Okay.

I've got one thing that, you
know, I persont bother me at all.

I've been just as superficial as that
and might be again, but get over it.

Stop being such a baby.

Yeah, just grow up.

But he can't, that's his ick.

Okay.

But it's like, I don't think he,
does he not have armpit hair?

It's so hard to overwhelm your own ick.

Does he have, does he
not have armpit hair?

I'm not saying he's right, Sam,
I'm saying he's probably wrong,

but that's just the No, no, no.

Of course he's, he's having a
visceral reaction to something

that doesn't bother me at all.

But how, how do you overcome it?

Right.

I think the key is he doesn't,
he just dates hairless women.

He's a pretty attractive guy.

It's easy enough to shave
your armpits, right?

So I guess it's an easy problem
to solve, but to me it's like this

would represent some tremendous,
I never wanted to drive a car.

I was terrified of doing it.

I had a visceral reaction to the idea
of being behind the wheel, and yet now

I am here quite enjoy driving a car now.

Yeah.

So can I just say, you're
basically a petrolhead?

I, I flawed it the other day, turning
left onto Bell Street and going

across three lanes, and I was like.

God damn.

Alright, Sam.

And that move the needle.

I'm gonna have to go,
I have to go and watch.

Well, I'll say the
thing, what's the footy?

The thing that moved the needle
with the person that annoyed me,

she said, go and play a song.

And I'm like, if there's one thing
I hate, it's a demand performance.

Right?

So you're gonna go and look this
woman up on Facebook after this?

Absolutely not.

She'll be married with five kids.

Uh, and I, it's better
that way, but like, but.

Actually, or possibly has
some high powered career.

I dunno, it's 50 50.

Yeah.

Anyway, um, and she's like, oh wait,
have you got like, is that a songbook?

And I was like, yeah.

And she starts flipping through it.

Right.

And I'm just kinda like warming up,
playing a strumming a little bit.

I think I, I started singing
something and she goes sing this one.

And she turns the book around and
it's Orphan Girl by Gillian Welch.

Oh, right.

And I'm like, I'm like.

I was astonished she even knew
the song, first of all, and that

she would want that one, uh, out
of, you know, everything there.

So I said, okay, fine.

I started singing it and then she
joined in, in a beautiful harmony

and sang it with such feeling.

Wow.

And I was like.

So this Prissy private school girl,
that's not who you really are.

Yeah.

What's going on here?

Like, why are you this way when
there's actually this wonderful,

soulful person beneath, maybe I
could look her up on Facebook.

You should.

She's awesome.

Like she's got that, a little bit
of that Monica Ucci, a little bit

of that Catherine's Edita Jones.

Um, and just annoying
enough for you, you know?

I think, but it's like, it sounds dreamy.

Yeah.

But, but the.

And I remember saying to a colleague
how much, uh, how much, she just

said something annoying earlier about
like, I, I need a man to pick me up

at the door and take me to a thing.

And I'm like, but what
if, what if I'm a creep?

Like, what do you do then?

Don't you wanna meet in an objective,
neutral public location so you can

like pull the ripcord if there's
like a bad situation and she's like,

oh no, I would never choose anyone.

I'm like that.

And I'm like, it's almost this Dylan
level of like confidence and arrogance

that like, she'll just never put a
foot wrong and maybe she never did.

Maybe she was right to trust herself.

I don't know.

But you know, like it's, it's all,
it can be a little bit of a mystery,

but I think what I've, what I've
learned is that I actually can.

Eventually put my finger on
why people are hot or not.

And it usually, to me, and it
usually comes down to personality,

is actually much, much more
important than I would've believed.

Mm.

And I think it's always
been important to me.

And if there's like a level of just like.

Basic straight up physical attraction
plus like a strong personality that it's,

that's an amazing combo and that I've
always been drawn to people that were

accomplished or ambitious or forthright
or you know, that kind of thing.

And that I think that those
instincts are basically good

and that the thing that was
missing was the attachment

piece, which slowly working out.

And the other thing that was
missing was the knowledge that

like you could actually train.

You can train your aesthetic,
you can change your aesthetic

that these things are malleable.

Yeah.

And you, for example, that friend of
yours could reprogram the underarm

hair thing if they so chose.

Well, if I can retrain my
attractive brain a bit.

I could potentially have a great partner
that I maybe haven't quite lost yet.

So I think that's my homework.

I, I believe you.

It's possible.

And if it is possible, then I'm still
in with a chance with that person.

Yeah, absolutely.

Um, yeah, because as you said,
the fundamentals were good.

You like get along with them and like
enjoyed each other's company and you

know, it's like, come on, what are we?

Yeah.

And that's one word we
haven't used is soul.

She's got soul man.

I, you know, gotta say if it's
not there, it doesn't matter

how good the personality Yeah.

The appearance is.

Yeah.

She's a good human.

Yeah.

But, um, I don't have any way of
getting through to her unless she

listens to this, so that's exciting for,
well, everyone else and that person.

Well, as you said, the
lesson of the Dylan movie is.

Good art equals get the girl right.

But you Yeah.

But as you've always said,
this podcast is not art.

It's just two people talking on a couch.

Yeah.

It's not art, it's process.

It's uh, it's processing it's process.

Yeah.

That's right.

Um, well, I think, oh, that's right.

I'm gonna propose another, I'm
gonna propose a part two to this

at some point in the future.

Yeah.

Which is dealing more with the aesthetic
and the physical side of things.

I think that's what we just
talked about for an hour.

I feel like we didn't
get into it properly.

Okay.

Yeah, we can come back to it.

I want to talk about how the aesthetic.

And the psychoanalytic go together
and what I've learned about that.

Okay.

Which is quite specific.

No worries.

And different worries.

Let's come back to it.

Mm.

But it's been fun.

Sam, thanks for having me in your home.

A good one.

Thank you for being here.

And, um, go dogs, by the time
you listen to this will know

whether they're in the finals.

Oh.

Have you missed part of the game?

No.

No.

Oh, no.

No.

It's about to happen.

It's about to happen and it's
still or die, so that's exciting.

Yeah.

Let's hope that it's good
news on the other side.

Or Danny will be happy if, uh, or unhappy.

Yeah, when we get to the
end of today, that's right.

Yeah.

All right, mate.

All right.

Okay.

See ya.

See you, mate.